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Honda Odyssey vs. Toyota Sienna

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The fact that Michelin now makes PAX snow tires is great. But why would you need ANOTHER set of PAX rims? Why wouldn't the PAX snow tire work on the PAX rims you've already got on your Touring model?

    The PAX tire cannot be removed from the rim it is "molded" onto like a regular tire can. PAX tires aren't mounted on the wheel like regular tires and wheels. Replacing tires costs a fortune because of it, and is the reason my aunt avoided the new Touring model and got a "plain ole" EX.
  • davantdavant Member Posts: 294
    Correction - Ody PAX tires can be removed from the rim but not by your Honda or Michelin dealer. They are returned to a depot repair facility, rims are refurbished (polished, cleaned, replaced, etc.) and a new tire is put on with very special and expensive equipment for restocking.

    As of today you'd have to put a set of four rim/tire combo 'assemblies' in order to replace what was delivered, not just swap rims. You may want to consider buying just two for the front to save some moolah. For serious snow dogs the Ice-X (PAX snow tires) might be an option but I see no need for them here in sunny FL, wink. Anyone in dire need should consider zip code replacement therapy IMHO.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Ody PAX tires can be removed from the rim but not by your Honda or Michelin dealer."

    Partially true.

    The PAX tires CAN be removed from the PAX rims but it does take specialized PAX mounting equipment. I would be surprised if any Honda dealers have the necessary PAX mounting equipment which is why the Honda dealers only deal with complete PAX system 'subassemblies' (ie. wheel/tire combo).

    However, according to the Michelin website - "There are approximately 200 Michelin-authorized servicing dealers nationwide with the appropriate PAX System-capable mounting/demounting equipment."

    http://www.michelinman.com/difference/innovation/paxsystem_faq.html

    It would seem that those individuals seeking to mount PAX snow tires should determine if any local Michelin dealers have the necessary PAX equipment before investing in complete wheel/tire assemblies from their Honda dealer. Also, it seems likely that those Michelin dealers who have invested in the PAX mounting equipment are more likely to actually have PAX tires in stock, saving the buyer from having to order assemblies from their Honda dealer.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    I'm baffled by your dealer's quote of $591 per tire/wheel. The only person I've seen who has actually purchased a set of these (he posts on another site whose name can't be mentioned here) claimed that he paid $1600 for a set of four.

    $2400 versus $1600 is a rather signifcant difference.
  • fljoslinfljoslin Member Posts: 237
    I note that a few of you have indicated you found more legroom in the Odyssey rather than the Sienna. I am 6' 5" and did not have enough leg room in either. I did find the legroom in the Sienna a little less cramped. I did not try the 2006 Odyssey (I did sit in a 2005) but expect it would be the same. Edmonds measures leg room in the Odyssey as 40.8 inches and the Sienna as 42.9 inches. I will try the 2006 Odyssey again if they have added more legroom but I fear that is not the case.

    I am 6'4" and am quite comfortable in my 2006 Odyssey EX-L. I would say that it is equivalent to my 1995 Suburban that I just sold. In my opinin, part of the comfort issue is not just the leg room, but where your legs go. The Odyssey works quite well for me.
  • agnostoagnosto Member Posts: 207
    I am 6'5'' and traded in a 2005 EX-L RES Odyssey for a 2006 Toyota Sienna Limited and I sit waaaay more comfortable in the Sienna... boy am I glad I got rid of the HONDA... never ever again HONDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
  • mcase2mcase2 Member Posts: 160
    Actually there is a price. Let me make this clear, there is in fact NO stowage for a spare on Siennas with RFTs - believe it. RFTs are used only on all-wheel drive Siennas. The drive shaft leaves no room for an under-mounted spare. This is why Toyota uses the RFTs in the first place! Priceless is the word though. Toyota RFTs wear out in about a year or so. Their wear life is between ten and fifteen thousand miles. That adds up to $10,000.00 in tires in ten years of ownership (imagine that!). This is why Toyota is now embroiled in multiple class action suits. AWD Sienna owners can get a free set of conventional replacements and an interior mounting rack. The problem is that the rack makes it impossible to flip down the rear passenger side seat. So whats the point in owning a minivan? In the end, you have got four choices, ONE - buy new tires every year for a grand or more. TWO - give up your rear folding seat and half your cargo well. THREE - have a loose spare just kicking around in back like some teenager with a jalopy. FOUR - drive without a spare. Any one considering RFTS had better think twice! Please look into this yourself if you doubt my word. :lemon:
  • mcase2mcase2 Member Posts: 160
    Pleas investigate the durabilty of the pax tires before you buy. I do not know if they are prone to the same problems as the run flat tire employed on the Toyota Sienna (please see my post 3239), but they might be and you really want to look before you leap. If the pax are prone to the kind of outrageous premature wear as the the run flats you will be in a worse fix than the Toyota owners because I believe you can't just swap out the tires and rims on the Ody touring with pax. The best bet might be to get a version of your van with conventional tires.
  • davantdavant Member Posts: 294
    It's all good and we're all correct. In our BFE part of FL, no one has this equipment meaning it becomes a 'depot' task.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Yes the Toyota run-flats on the AWD are not the best (don't like pax either), but at least they have an AWD model, for those that feel they need it.
  • davantdavant Member Posts: 294
    Honda Michelin PAX seem to be better off than the Dunlops on the Sienna regarding wear and ride too.

    The point I was trying to make is that proper inflation and near perfect alignment are more critical on the Ody with PAX tires than with conventionals.

    You theoretically could put regular rims and tires on a Touring but you'd have some issues, namely the TPS going haywire all the time that's why no one does it (also speedo error due to different outside diameter). TPS works well so why mess with it? Consumers should recognize that this technology has drawbacks along with benefits. With a PAX Ody (Touring only) smart folks will rotate frequently, check/adjust pressure regularly, and be aware of treadwear trends. Those complaining about very premature wear on any tire probably ignored one or more of these duties. That may or may not be the case on a Sienna. These tires are not set and forget even with TPS, just like any other.

    The Odyssey TPS will monitor that all tires are within programmed limits. It may not sense the 2-3 PSI variance that can affect wear unless close to high or low limits. For example, when I was in Atlanta, I got a warning the left rear was low. This happened right after a cold start (four hours of Lennox shopping) with ambient at 32F. I pulled over in less than a mile and checked pressure and it had climbed to 32 as the tire warmed up. I gave each a shot of air as cold weather insurance even though the dealer had adjusted pressure and rotated within the last 1K miles. My lesson learned was to keep tires in the middle (or even top end for better MPG) of the recommended pressure range, running 33 rear, 35 front on ours (cold at 65F).

    Bottom line is if you can't afford to replace tires about every 30K miles then perhaps the Touring isn't for you.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    What other choices do we have besides getting Sienna if one really wants AWD? If one can afford to spend over $40K for a Sienna LTD AWD, why would one worry about replacement tire cost? It is part of the cost of owning the only AWD minivan on the planet. Now, that's priceless.
  • mcase2mcase2 Member Posts: 160
    Come on now think about it. Yes, their might be a few MULTI-millionaires who buy Toyota minivans and perhaps would not care, but I doubt it. It is rather silly to assume that even very rich people would take this lying down. Most people with enough money to not care would be driving a Mercedes SUV anyway. The profile of the higher-end Toyota Minivan owner is overwhelmingly upper-middle class. These people spent $40,000.00 on a minivan and naturally did not calculate the surprise $10,000.00 on tires into their financial projections. Thats why their suing Toyota. Get it, they care VERY much!

    P.S. Please, whatever you do in life NEVER become a financial consultant.
  • turtle44turtle44 Member Posts: 2
    I am considering buying a Sienna XLE Limited, but am concerned whether premium grade gas is required. Can any 2005/2006 Sienna owners share their experience on this? Does regular, 87 octane, gas cause pinging/knocking or cause deterioration in gas mileage or engine performance? Other than this concern, I think the Sienna has it all over the Odyssey.

    Thanks for your help.
  • heywood1heywood1 Member Posts: 851
    These issues have already been beaten to death dozens of times in various Edmunds' discussion topics for the AWD Sienna and PAX-laden Odyssey. Please check out the least-visited but most-topic-appropriate 'Run-Flat/PAX' discussion for more information.
  • agnostoagnosto Member Posts: 207
    I just bought a 2006 Toyota Sienna Limited fully loaded and I put 87 octane as the owners manual states... no need for higher octane as Sienna is not a performance car... boy am I glad I traded in my 2005 Odyssey after a year of issues and frustration for the beautiful silver shadow pearl bullet Sienna... never again HONDA!!! :)
  • boodadboodad Member Posts: 31
    Agnosto, what were your issues with your Ody? Just curious... :confuse:
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    Why don't you just go back and read his posts? I really think we all would like to move on from those postings. He bought his beautiful "siver bullet" and the issue settled. I am not trying to be the board police but we have read about his dislike of Honda for months. Others reading the messages should not get the impression every Odyssey has his problems. I have an '06 Ody and no problems so far.
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    Why don't you just go back and read his posts? I really think we all would like to move on from those postings."

    Your right, Mon!

    Let sleeping dogs lie. That's good dog-gone advice.

    My 04 Ody EX(made in July04) has been flawless and is just great fun in embarrasing all its competitors in the curvy exit ramps with its acceleration and handling/cornering!

    PS: Premium gas is not required for the Sienna - with automatic timing, it will run OK with less HP. But premium is required to get its max advertized HP. This is one sensitive area that any manufacturer would shy from disclosing.

    The Ody gets it max advertized HP(10+ more than Sienna with premium gas) with regular. Great for lead footers!
  • mcase2mcase2 Member Posts: 160
    I did not introduce this topic
  • mcase2mcase2 Member Posts: 160
    Agnosto I can only find one prvious post of yours. What were your issues with the Honda? If you have already posted them just direct me to posts. If not let us know.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    Dude, you still haven't answer my question. What other choice does one have if one wants to buy an AWD minivan?
    BTW, I also own a MB, BWM, Lexus, and Odyssey. I also have more money than any financial consultant.
  • fred222fred222 Member Posts: 200
    just bought a 2006 Toyota Sienna Limited fully loaded and I put 87 octane as the owners manual states... no need for higher octane as Sienna is not a performance car... boy am I glad I traded in my 2005 Odyssey after a year of issues and frustration for the beautiful silver shadow pearl bullet Sienna... never again HONDA!!!

    Just how many HP and how much torque does the "silver bullet" have on 87 octane gas?
    Certainly not a performance vehicle!
  • fred222fred222 Member Posts: 200
    The Ody gets it max advertized HP(10+ more than Sienna with premium gas) with regular. Great for lead footers!
    The Odyssey is rated a lot more that 10 HP more than the Sienna since Toyota revised the Sienna ratings and that does not take into account the premium/regular difference!
  • agnostoagnosto Member Posts: 207
    The whole back right side of the vehicle was misaligned because it was improperly installed. This includes the rear bumper, tail light and back side panel. All of this was causing the door guide cover to be warped and not properly placed. The gaps were not consistent... some were wide while others are butting up against other pieces causing the paint to be chipped at these areas. wireless head phones will go on and off and dealership kept replacing batteries, back windshield wiper was replaced and caused a ton of plastic covers to be replaced cheap, cheap materials used. VSC light will come on and off intermittently, passenger sliding door rattles and clunking multiple times to repair w/o any success... some noise and engine hesitation was considered normal... I can go on and on... This is my conclusion with HONDAs they have "reputable" engines but the parts/quality and the overall built of the car is cheaply made... not even 5 months old and the paint started to fall apart.

    As I said before, if someone wants quality and reliability, there is only one manufacturer name TOYOTA/LEXUS
    --end of story--
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Yes the ody has more power, but it weighs more. Acceleration is a wash between the two - not really worth rehashing
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    As I said before, if someone wants quality and reliability, there is only one manufacturer name TOYOTA/LEXUS
    --end of story--

    There is no "end of story" on these forums until noone else posts. Someone my dad works with owned his Camry until, at 55,000 miles, he was on transmission number three, ignition two, and second windshield wiper motor (pivot points wore out prematurely, causing wipers to flail around on the windshield when turned on at speed).

    We owned a 2000 Ody that ran like new when we traded it in this year. Each car company has good days and bad days at the plant, it seems.

    I'm not saying either car company is terrible, as both Honda and toyota are amazing in their field.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yes the ody has more power, but it weighs more. Acceleration is a wash between the two - not really worth rehashing.

    Well, its not a wash, the Ody weighs 240 pounds more, about the weight of one large person. With 30 horsepower to offset one person's weight, I'd say the Ody has a definite advantage. Throw in that the Sienna requires premium to achieve max performance, the Ody increases its advantage further.
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    There is no "end of story" on these forums until no one else posts. Someone my dad works with owned his Camry until, at 55,000 miles, he was on transmission number three, ignition two, and second windshield wiper motor (pivot points wore out prematurely, causing wipers to flail around on the windshield when turned on at speed).

    We owned a 2000 Ody that ran like new when we traded it in this year. Each car company has good days and bad days at the plant, it seems.

    I'm not saying either car company is terrible, as both Honda and toyota are amazing in their field.

    Well said!
  • mcase2mcase2 Member Posts: 160
    As long as Toyota tells the consumer up front, "oh by the way, this is really a $50,000.00 minivan" I see no problem. Also think about resale once this little problem becomes common knowledge. Cstang, its nice your loaded, perhaps that explains your detached reasoning regarding the hard earned money that people spend on these vehicles.
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    "There is no "end of story" on these forums until noone else posts. Someone my dad works with owned his Camry until, at 55,000 miles, he was on transmission number three, ignition two, and second windshield wiper motor (pivot points wore out prematurely, causing wipers to flail around on the windshield when turned on at speed).

    We owned a 2000 Ody that ran like new when we traded it in this year. Each car company has good days and bad days at the plant, it seems. "

    It is refreshing to come across folks like you with a broader vision.
    A colleague of mine got rid of his Toyota Tacoma due to Toyota's engine sludge problem. But that would not blindsight me into buying a Toyota vehicle that suits my purposes. Both Toyota and Honda are recognized as leaders in quality vehicles. My Ody has been flawless and fun to drive since buying it.
  • jlee8jlee8 Member Posts: 1
    Hi,
    My husband and I are expecting our third child in May and are looking to replace our 2000 Ody. We haven't been to the dealerships yet- will do that sometime in the next couple weeks. Our concern is whether or not the 3rd seat in the middle row is meant to be used all the time or as an occasional seat. We want to keep all three kids in the middle row (I feel it's safer)- but we'll have to fit a booster seat, a convertible car seat, and an baby carrier for a least a year in the middle row. Does anyone have any suggestions or advice regarding which van would fit the car seats better? In looking at the Toyota web site, the extra seat in the second row looks a little bigger than the Ody. But it seems as though you can only get it in the LE and without leather seating. We also want leather and a moon roof. Are we asking for too much?? :)
    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks!
  • 05ody05ody Member Posts: 103
    Hey, I have a 2005 Honda Odyssey EX, and the middle seat in the second row is probablly not good for a baby seat. I have had a babyseat in it with 2 adults on each side and the seat didnt seem very stable seing how the seat is so skinny. Im not sure how well a booster seat would do in the middle, but other then that the seat can be used regularily for anyone out of a car seat and is actually quite comfortable. I could not compare to an 8 seat Sienna because my aunt bought the 7 seat LE.
  • toyo_van_ownertoyo_van_owner Member Posts: 31
    As far as the Sienna, my six year old fits in the middle seat in his booster perfectly. Its his favorite place to sit. We've only had boosters on either side of him, not the larger car seats, in this van. But on several occasions full size adults have sat comfortably on either side of him.

    Are you sure the child in the booster doesn't want in the third row for a space all his/her own? My daughter sure escaped back there as soon as we would let her. Of course, by that time, she was able to buckle herself in. :D

    Good luck in your search - its gets confusing, with all the vans offering completely different features.
  • cpsdarrencpsdarren Member Posts: 265
    The Sienna 8-seat version is a better choice if you are going to have 7-8 occupants frequently, or wish to have 3-across in the 2nd row. The Sienna seat in the middle of the second row is much wider and has a full integrated seatbelt and LATCH attachments.

    You can use the Honda PlusOne seat all the time, but it is quite narrow. That may limit who can be seated comfortably and what carseats will fit properly.

    I wouldn't worry about any danger with the third row seating. The outboard seats are likely to be more dangerous, given the frequency and severity of side impacts vs. rear impacts. Any rear seat will be very safe for kids provided they are properly restrained in a correctly installed child seat.

    I was about to buy an 8-seat Sienna to have all the kids in the second row, but found that my older kids needed a bit more separation. I have a lengthy review comparing the 2006 8-seater versions at epinions.com if you want more details.

    These might also answer some questions:

    http://www.suvsafety.info/thirdrow.html

    http://www.car-safety.org/odyssey.html

    Good luck in your choice. You really can't go wrong with either one, but one may be better suited to your situation.
  • ClairesClaires Member Posts: 1,222
    These issues have already been beaten to death dozens of times in various Edmunds' discussion topics for the AWD Sienna and PAX-laden Odyssey. Please check out the least-visited but most-topic-appropriate 'Run-Flat/PAX' discussion for more information.


    And if anyone want to beat it beyond death :) take a look at the blog entry on class-action lawsuit against Toytoa and feel free to add your comments.

    Run flat tires wear quicker and cost more than regular tires

    MODERATOR

    Need help getting around? claires@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

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  • fred222fred222 Member Posts: 200
    We want to keep all three kids in the middle row (I feel it's safer)- but we'll
    We recently purchased a 2006 Odyssey EX-L with the extra middle seat. With the arm rests down the middle seat is good for a young skinny child. With the arm rests up the seat is acceptable, but not great. We have three kids (3, 8, 13) and my 8 year old loves the back seat. Sometimes he gets all three seats, sometime two and sometimes one depending on how the seat is arranged. I do not feel that the very back seats are any less safe than the middle seats and it can make for much more pleasant driving with the kids separated. BTW We replaced a Suburban with the Oddy. In the Suburban the kids usually sat in the middle seat, and although it was wider than the Oddy, it was often too close, so I am happy how accessible the back seat of the Oddy is.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    "Yes the ody has more power, but it weighs more. Acceleration is a wash between the two - not really worth rehashing.

    Well, its not a wash, the Ody weighs 240 pounds more, about the weight of one large person. With 30 horsepower to offset one person's weight, I'd say the Ody has a definite advantage. Throw in that the Sienna requires premium to achieve max performance, the Ody increases its advantage further. "

    It is definatly a wash.

    Consumer reports got both of them 0-60 in 8.6 seconds and 0-30 was 3.3 for Accord and 3.1 for Sienna, quarter was 16.9 @ 84 mph for both. You can't get much more even than that. If anything the Sienna has a slight edge off of the line. HP in inself means nothing - it is the total package that effects acceleration. Besides - who is gonna race these things.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Car and Driver reported a "stuck on flypaper" feeling with the Sienna; off the line performance a little lacking compared with the Ody (old model Ody, less power). The acceleration argument IS a little strange for minivans, though, I'll agree!
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    maybe you are asking for too much.

    ok - is the 2000 reliable? is it paid for? have you forgotten how much diapers cost?

    i have three. personally - the further i can get them from the driver's position the better.

    i think a child seat could be installed with an attachment onto my roof rails. i've got one of the three with no fear that would be willing. i think the GA patrol wouldn't take kindly to it... but i can imagine the smiles and thumbs up from those in the passing lanes.

    what do you want to do, be able to feed the three from the front seat? you need to work on your backward toss. my wife can hit any of the three (youngest in row 2, older 2 in row 3) with a stray food item or errant plastic toy without looking in the mirror... forces the kids to be vigilant and develop better reflexes.

    and anyway - we feel safer as it's harder to get hit up front by a sippy cup from row3 than from row2. by the time they graduate to row3, they no longer need sippy cups anyway - mine are into starwars figurines and light-sabers.

    hope it helps. ;)
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    Again, you still haven't answered the question: what other choices are out there if one wants to get an AWD minivan?
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Again, you still haven't answered the question: what other choices are out there if one wants to get an AWD minivan?"

    I'll play your silly game - 0.

    But I don't think that means Sienna buyers must automatically put up with run-flat tires due to the lack of room under the van for a spare tire. The Odyssey doesn't stow it's spare tire under the vehicle; it's stored upright on the left side of the rear cargo area. Are you implying that Toyota simply CAN'T figure out how to store a space-saver spare in the van and that a space-saver spare MUST be stored under the vehicle?
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    How come nobody answers my question: What are the choices for buyers who want to buy a AWD minivan?
    This is not a silly game. It is a serious question for a lot of buyers.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Actually, I was wrong when I said there was 0 choices. GM makes a number of AWD minivans:

    Chevy Uplander LT
    Buick Terraza CX and CXL
    Pontiac Montana SV6
    Saturn Relay

    I don't know if these AWD systems require the use of RFT's or not.

    The reason why I made the comment regarding 'silly game' is because the gist of the complaint regarding the Toyota AWD vans was the fact that the RFT's on the AWD models had problems. You seem to think that Toyota had NO CHOICE but to use RFT's on their AWD models since the AWD drivetrain intruded on the spare tire storage space.

    My point is that if Honda was able to find room inside the van to store the spare tire (without occupying storage space), why couldn't Toyota? Are you saying that Toyota simply COULDN'T design a place to store the spare on the AWD models and were therefore FORCED to use RFT's?
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    I'm not familiar with the 05/06. The Lazy Susan occupies the space where in earlier models, the spare donut would go correct? On an 05/06 with or without PAX, are you saying Honda puts the spare (unless horribly mistaken, there would be no spare on a PAX unless you went out of your way to buy one, and then it would have to be a full rim/tire assembly) for a non-PAX (i.e. non Touring), non-RFT model somewhere in the back?
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Yes, the Lazy Susan occupies the space where the previous models stored the spare tire.

    On the current generation Odysseys equipped with standard tires, Honda provides a donut spare stored upright behind a panel on the left side of the storage well behind the 3rd row seat. I haven't checked to see, but I sincerely doubt there is room in this storage location for a full-size rim/tire (the flat). I don't know if Touring owners can purchase as an option a donut spare to go in this same location; I've been told the space is used for part of the stereo system in the Touring (either an additional amp or a subwoofer; we don't own a Touring so can't expound on this any further).

    Like Toyota, Honda apparently feels that those owners of their vans equipped with RFT's should have no reasonable desire (yeah, right) to carry a spare. Personally, I think this is a bit short-sighted on both Honda's and Toyota's part. Many folks are not sold on the whole RFT concept and have a real desire to carry a spare. Personally, I think Honda should have left the space alone on the Touring models so their owners could put a donut there if they desired. I also think that Toyota could have figured out a way to store the spare inside the vehicle; regardless of if the van was AWD or FWD.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    totally agree here. I would put the booster seat fellow in the 3rd row and save the $$$.

    Keep in mind that the little angels, no matter how cute they are now, are territorial beings and will fight to death to defend their own personal space and belongings. WHILE YOU'RE STUCK IN TRAFFIC FOR OVER AN HOUR.

    By the way, why pay for another new vehicle only to mess up the interior with spill juice, grind cheerios, fries...
  • mcase2mcase2 Member Posts: 160
    Oh ok kid your right!
  • davantdavant Member Posts: 294
    The Sound of Donuts?

    As a Touring owner I get my donuts at the Krispy Kreme drive-thru, thank you. I have to turn down the 300W stereo when ordering and don't care if I could carry a temporary spare tire in this third row 'stereo' space (can I store other goodies there instead?). Because of the donuts, I carry my spare tire around with me all the time and am comfy doing so in knowing I have 150 miles before any flat is truly flat, plenty of distance to reach a Mich or Honda dealer in 95 percent of North America. I am completely satisfied that PAX has the right logistics in place, something Toyota overlooked, possibly because even they felt the technology was still evolving.

    I hope you aren't offended if I honk at non-Touring Ody owners changing a tire on the side of the road? As you turn your head to see who did that, note that the '06 Touring has two badges on the left side of the rear hatch, LOL.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "...Because of the donuts, I carry my spare tire around with me all the time...

    ...note that the '06 Touring has two badges on the left side of the rear hatch, LOL."

    Whoa, that was you? I thought it was all the badges on the left side making the van lean over that way.... :P ;)
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