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Comments
AWD helps you go, that's it. Winter tires help you go, stop and handle better.
Not entirely true, but I do generally agree with you. AWD has its place, but in very limited low traction conditions which most people almost never encounter. I live in a heavy snow area in E WA on the top of a hill. I recently sold a 4x4 Suburban in which I only used the 4x4 to go down the hill. One morning I was going down the hill slowly in 2nd gear and shifted down into 1st gear and managed to lock up all the wheels and go into a slide. Since I did not have my foot on the break I quickly got out of the slide, but it was pretty unpleasant. I very rarely needed the 4x4 to get up the hill.
On ice and snow, ABS offers very little help. Winter tires are MUCH better than all of these advanced safety systems combined. These systems can only manage the existing grip. They cannot increase grip. The best way to go is winter tires. These tires work so well. My Honda Accord on winter tires can plow through icy hills/roads better than the best AWD SUV on all seasons.
Of course, in less severe winter conditions. Good all seasons are ok, but do not offer the reassuring grip that winter tires give.
Snow tires, and AWD have better grip to prevent skidding, and reduce the time of skidding.
Many Sienna and Odyssey owners alike have stated this.
By the way; it's Odyssey with one "D" not two (perhaps you don't like the ODD-YSSEY?)
If anything the packing of the Ody is what makes you buy up a model. The Sienna has many more packages. Because there are so many choices it may take a little looking to find what you want, but it is out there.
That the Odyssey isn't more expensive, period, as our friend in the earlier post was leading everyone in the forum to believe, in fact, in can be quite the opposite. Sorry if my words got misconstrued, but I wanted to use facts, not baseless opinion, to make my point.
You, dudley, at least recognized the different methods of packaging that Toyota and Honda use. It works better for some than others.
Try three months to find the Sienna my great aunt wanted; after 3 months of searching in Birmingham, with every delaer wanting to sell her the car she wanted but with more options, she went with a simple choice. Odyssey EX. She got the eighth seat she wanted, the auto climate, power doors, 6-disc changer, cloth, and Vehicle Stability Assist, for $27,200. The closest Sienna she could find (I was involved in shopping with her b/c she is single and over 60; she didn't want to go alone) had all of this but no 8th seat and no auto climate, but had some other things, and listed for $29.5k (yes, it could've been dealt down). She really wanted the 8th seat and likes the idea of Auto Climate Control (her last vehicle had it), so the Odyssey was just a much easier choice to make.
Someone posted the other day that the "Honda sucked." My only response to them was a request for them to elaborate. I didn't say they were wrong, I just wanted more information to see if they were just mouthing, or had a valid point.
Same case here, although less obvious. The claims of "odyssey is much more expensive" WEREN'T backed up with any more information. YES, the LX Odyssey costs more than the CE Sienna (both base models), but the LX Odyssey has far more standard equipment. Just a simple explanation was all I was hoping for, all I gave, and all dudleyr gave, and it was perfectly sufficient.
By the way, congratulations on your advanced age and education. We are all very proud.
P.S. Sorry you took the request of formal writing so badly, I was just writing what I've seen hosts ask of posters before, so I figured I'd request it before a host stepped in. Forgive me, it was not my place.
I'm still trying to work this one out.... :confuse:
Huh?
I believe you think rationally but don't agree with your analogies. The problem may be your ability to express this logic in text so I'm having trouble understanding you, not that you haven't thought it out sufficiently.
I chose the Odyssey in Touring trim with RES and Navi compared to another apple, the XLE Limited. The Toyota was more expensive (much much so, LOL) not only in MSRP but what I could negotiate. The Odyssey has more spirit, vive, and maybe you'll agree it handles more like a sports sedan than a family truckster (read as Sienna). Seating eight isn't a priority here. Compare both a base model and a top of the line but be sure they are similarly equipped vehicles (not possible to duplicated them exactly). While Toyota has nifty features like Bluetooth, I don't use it. The distance keeping cruise control is nice but who cares in backed up traffic.
Honda dealers have fewer choices to cloud what you are and aren't getting in a minivan for instance; three trim levels, with or without leather, with or without RES and/or Navigation, nothing else but add on accessories! Toyota prefers the Sienna Stroganoff, a complicated array of option packages that assure you get this with that but not the other. It appears this marketing ploy was meant to confuse all but the dealer and drive up prices. I have a neighbor with a decked-out XLE Limited in AWD who found out later (his own fault?) he has the ill-fated Toyota version of runflats, they are sad poor riding imitation PAX, Honda's ride is superb here. The Honda camp is also full of unintentional comprimises (PAX, power liftgate=Touring only).
The Sienna has a more plush ride but does too much rocking and rolling on uneven roads as it lacks the Ody's independent suspension, the Sienna using an 'old school' trailing arm/rigid axle. Cross railroad tracks at an angle and you'll see exactly what I mean.
I respect your opinion to chose what you feel is the best value. If you use logic and do a 'fair and exacting' comparison you'll find that both fruits are tasty and cost is pretty much much close... one decidedly tangier and more refreshing than the other.
Opine on,
Davant
Also, I second the fact that the Ody is not necessarily more expensive. When we went shopping for my in-laws, the Ody was the cheaper of the two simply because of the requirements they had and the available models. And even though the Sienna had a more flexible options package, the local dealers were incapable of getting the ones in that they wanted. The Ody ended up being cheaper for their needs. Having said that, we all thought the Sienna was very nice as well. It's impossible to lose with either vehicle. You just have to know what you desire in a minivan.
However, a little research lets any customer know the Sienna options that are available in each region. Toyota (and Honda )dealers list their inventory online and it is VERY easy to locate a Sienna (and Odyssey ) equipped as desired.
I beg to differ. For example, could you please tell me how to find the Odyssey inventory at Ron Tonkin Honda (Portland OR area dealer)? I tried every way I could think of, and no go. Tonkin dot com is where I started. This is not an isolated case, either. Many other dealerships I've tried have the same problem.
Locating inventory on the internet is a different story altogether, and the responsibility of the dealer, usually. Try looking in the Prices Paid and Buying Experiences forum for advice on finding your dealer's inventory online. More people in there are glad to help, and have more expertise than we in the comparison forum(s).
If only it was so.
When my wife and I were in the market last year, I looked for a couple of months for our preferred vehicle (Sienna XLE w/package #6 in either light blue or burgundy). That was to get it equipped as close to an Odyssey EX-L as reasonable (all the safety equipment, sunroof, leather, and CD changer).
I found a grand total of 3. And I checked 2-3 times a week using Toyota's little "Build Your Own" option which would locate EVERYTHING in the entire region which was even close to the preferred options. And each of those 3 vans had a bunch of extra Gulf States Toyota stuff on them that I didn't want.
Find Sienna's? Sure. Equipped as desired? Only if you desire the typical stuff. Apparently few Sienna buyers wanted the full completment of airbags and traction/VSC. And when trying to DEAL with the Toyota dealer's, they knew I was seeking a relatively rare vehicle. And dealt accordingly. Best I could get was around $32k
For some strange reason, I had no trouble find an Odyssey EX-L, in our preferred color (Ocean Mist), in stock. And I got it for $28.6k
It's about $2K less expensive (invoice)
It has that great in-floor storage (with 3 kids we have a lot of stuff)
I like the body style better
It earned all 5 stars for driver front crash (Sienna earned 4)
This is dumb but I noticed it and it would bother me with the sienna: when the 3rd row seats are folded forward, the bag hooks in the Sienna become unusable because they too fold forward, but in the Ody they are still usable when the seat is folded forward because they're located lower on the seat (look at the Inside Line Cargo/trunk photos for each van to see what I mean).
Okay, so that being said, here are my questions:
1) Where is the spare tire located in the Sienna? I'm guessing underneath it? Making it difficult to access (and is this why they don't also have in-floor storage?)
2) On paper the Ody says it has an outside temp gauge, but where does it show you the temp? I don't remember seeing it during both my test drives, though I didn't think to ask the dealer at the time to show me where it was. I have that in my current car and LOVE knowing what the outside temp is
3) Has anyone used the Costco auto buying program to buy their van? The quotes I got from both the Honda and Toyota dealers were essentially $500 over invoice and no dealer handling.
Thanks in advance!!
It's certainly not possible. That was part of the frustration at our local Toyota dealers. I mean, it's nice being able to (in theory) customize a vehicle with deep options packages as opposed to the "simplicity" of Honda but if they can't get what you want it really doesn't matter. At least in my area, it ended up that Honda's one package nearly perfectly matched the requirements whereas purchasing a similarly equipped Toyo meant taking other additional options that drove the price over our mark.
"Apparently few Sienna buyers wanted the full completment of airbags and traction/VSC. And when trying to DEAL with the Toyota dealer's, they knew I was seeking a relatively rare vehicle. And dealt accordingly. Best I could get was around $32k
For some strange reason, I had no trouble find an Odyssey EX-L, in our preferred color (Ocean Mist), in stock. And I got it for $28.6k"
We had a nearly identical situation here in the NE. All we really wanted was traction control and side curtain airbags along with the SRS in the front. We eventually settled for an EX-L at a lower price, though we didn't get to choose a color
"2) On paper the Ody says it has an outside temp gauge, but where does it show you the temp? I don't remember seeing it during both my test drives, though I didn't think to ask the dealer at the time to show me where it was. I have that in my current car and LOVE knowing what the outside temp is"
In the '05 this information is where the odometer is. You push a little stalk and switch between a few different displays.
It's certainly not possible. "
I managed to get $3,300 off of sticker on a 2006 Sienna that was not on a dealers lot. I even had two dealers offer me the same price, and a third was a couple of hundred behind. This was even before there was a rebate. I bought from the dealer that could deliver the vehicle first. It is not hard to do - contact the internet dept. at the dealer.
I hate to say it, but I did not even want to try to wade through the option list on the Toyota vans. Similar for the Chrysler vans. I do not enjoy buying vehicles and dealing with people who sell them. I have better things to do with my life. Honda has four basic vans, two of which I would have considered, the EX and the EX-L. I wanted leather and VCM so I ended up choosing an EX-L and that is what I got. They had already installed mud flaps on it which I did not mind.
Having then decided to go with team H, the Touring was our obvious choice in a luxo-fam-cruisebox. Tourings are somewhat scarce but I found what I wanted, beat our local dealer by $1,500, flew to ATL for 50 bucks, happiness ensues. Having inside connections to both the local Honda and Toyota dealers made no difference. Seems some dealers either have overhead or profit requirements that keep them from competing outside their locale.
Inventory changes daily and doesn't include inboud allocations so even if every dealer had a good website it's today's news, often outdated tommorow.
Pick one YOU like...like...like...
Good point. Now that both models sell near invoice in many areas, the difference is less than even 6 months ago. If you're only comparing based on one feature like a power hatch or DVD system, the numbers can be skewed a lot more than if you compare similarly equipped models.
When I shopped 8 passenger models a few months ago, the real street price difference of a similarly equipped LE8 and EX ended up being under $500, with the Sienna being a little cheaper. There were still numerous minor feature differences. The only somewhat major one was an extra power door on the Odyssey. Even that may not concern some buyers.
I ended up splurging on an EX-L when the Toyota dealer gave me the runaround on the Sienna I ordered (had to be a factory order to get the package with comparable safety features). I guess someone could claim I spent thousands more on the Odyssey and be right, although the extras like leather, heated seats and moonroof aren't available on an 8-passenger Sienna so you can't compare fairly.
Ultimately, if price is the only factor, then by all means buy the one that is cheaper in your area for the features you want.
We found the interior of the Ody much more pleasing in aesthetics and convenience. When my husband looked in the Sienna, his reaction was "yuck". Hated all the puffy gathered leather and gross fake wood. Just personal preference, but it reminded us of an old Lincoln Towncar. Really felt like something an old lady would drive.
We found the driving experience dramatically different as well. I couldn't believe I was driving a minivan in the Ody. Nice braking, nice steering, little body roll. It had less body roll than my 03 Toyota Landcruiser. The Sienna was way too floaty, and the understeer was disturbing to say the least. I never felt in control of the vehicle.
Dealerships are variable, but we found the Honda dealership much nicer than the Toyota. This will be our 7th car purchase in 7 years so I know my way around a dealership. The Toyota folks were aggressive and annoying. The Honda guys let us look at the Ody by ourselves with no hovering for as long as we wanted until we were ready for the test drive.
We weren't shopping based on price, but it also happens that we can get the Ody for $2-3k less than the Sienna would have a cost us...an added benefit.
The only point I would give the Sienna is better exterior colors to choose from.
i think several of the previous posts make the point that people find it problematic to find what they want.
i remember the SNL skit where the short-order staff meet customers and stick to the mantra: "Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger", "No fries, Chips", and "No Coke, Pepsi".
i just think Toyota is purposefully making it complicated to benefit the company and its dealers. the variations in model options makes it more difficult to objectively assess value and stick to what you want when you discover it isn't generally available. i think you've got to have a list of available packages and colors in mind when you go in for a test drive and be willing to be very flexible.
that's going to be a turnoff for many consumers, and the posts here make that clear.
in my opinion toyota purchasers actually benefit by Honda's simpler availability and pricing models. it provides something concrete that allows those interested in the Sienna something to compare the myriad of packages to.
Billy Goat Tavern. Mmmmmm.
I was not particularly happy with the new V-6 AWD RAV4 after test-drivng on dry road condition due to torque steer. I have a 93' Previa AWD and quite happy about its AWD system and am now ready for a new AWD vehicle. Wish Sienna has the same AWD. Please help me to finalize my buying decision. Thanks. :confuse:
You should test drive a Sienna AWD to see if the lower power in the Sienna produces any torque steer.
You should test drive a Sienna AWD to see if the lower power in the Sienna produces any torque steer.
I find this thread interesting. My 2006 Odyssey EX-L which is FWD only and has significantly more HP and torque that the Sienna, has in my opinion no torque steer. Would any other readers comment on this observation.
Is it Front or Rear torque-biase system?
Or it is a Full-Time AWD? :confuse:
Thanks.
Want to meet me next time in Canada during winter? It'll be my treat. I'd like to see how your ultimate 4RUNNER on all seasons would handle.
link title- You should read this article.
"Snow tires trump 4WD, AWD, traction control and stability control. A front-drive economy sedan on four top-quality snow tires will go more places than the best 4WD vehicle on all-season tires. An AWD- and stability control-equipped sport sedan on high-performance summer tires will get stuck on a snow cone spilled on an August highway. AWD and computer driver assists can only manage available traction, they can't increase grip."- Edmunds