Subaru B9 Tribeca (B9X)

rsholland · November 2004

do you really feel 250 foot pounds of twist from a non-turbo 3.0L powerplant is likely?

Don't know Joe. My guess is no, or we would already have it.

Bob

sduford · November 2004

Have you guys seen this?

http://www.sevenseats.com/movie.aspx?VideoID=1

Pretty funny...

rsholland · November 2004

Oh yeah... It's made the rounds here.

Bob

dewey · November 2004

The following article indicates the B9X will not be introduced with a turbo or hybrid engine. That would be a shame!

http://www.whatcar.com/News_Article.asp?NA_ID=212141

c_hunter · November 2004

Thing to keep in mind -- these articles don't have a whole lot of credibility at this point. Unless they are specifically quoting someone from Subaru or have info from a press release/announcement, it's probably speculation and not fact (just like all our speculation here, which may be more educated!). Another article quoted a SOA exec saying 3.0 H6, but that's the only fact we have right now.

CRaig

subearu · November 2004

up to now, many of us have speculated it's RX330 sized. But, that article says it's XC90 sized. That's a noteable difference.

Here's a comparo of the RX330, XC90, Pilot, and Outback VDC:
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessio- nid=BQEO7CCijLs1VSypUC2DoQU62RXQdSjBBZYVrCEZc265yH7xFUGe!-4660421- 74?styleid=100461566&styleid=100414196&styleid=100467375&- amp;styleid=100397914&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&t- ab=specs

-Brian

rsholland · November 2004

Brian, thanks for the comparo link. This proves what I've been saying in terms of vehicle weight. BTW, also included the MDX here.

XC90 = 4610 lbs.
RX330 = 4065 lbs.
Pilot = 4431 lbs.
MDX = 4504
Outback VDC = 3630 lbs.

I bet the B9X will weigh in very close to the MDX or XC90. That means it could be as much as a 1000 lbs. heavier than the Outback VDC. That's going to put a real strain on the existing 3.0 H6, for sure.

Bob

rsholland · November 2004

http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news/2004/11/08/274701.html

subearu · November 2004

I changed it to include the MDX and X5 (and removed the Pilot): http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessio- nid=BQ7HtUX91LskLfTUkH0r1xTM8zeYv9giew3IVWTTNY8nvLMpIp6H!-4660421- 74?styleid=100461566&styleid=100414196&styleid=100397914&- amp;styleid=100443639&styleid=100473329&maxvehicles=5&amp- ;refid=&op=3&tab=specs

The X5 comes in at 4927 lbs.

-Brian

rsholland · November 2004

And the (heavy) X5 is one of the B9X's main target vehicles too.

Bob

subearu · November 2004

Look at the 'Features' page for engine info: http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessio- - nid=BQ7HtUX91LskLfTUkH0r1xTM8zeYv9giew3IVWTTNY8nvLMpIp6H!-4660421- - 74?styleid=100461566&styleid=100414196&styleid=100397914&- amp;- amp;styleid=100443639&styleid=100473329&maxvehicles=5&amp- ;amp- ;refid=&op=3&tab=features

The RX330 has a 3.3L V6 with 230hp. So, Subaru's thinking that the 3.0H6 would suffice is basically proven with the RX330. It only weighs 400# more than the Outback. If Subaru manages the weight on the BX9 properly, they could come out close to the RX330 weight.

-Brian

-Brian

rsholland · November 2004

RX330 lacks a heavy 3rd-row seat. I don't believe the B9X will be able match the RX330's relatively low weight. I'd be amazed if the B9X comes in under 4400 lbs.

Bob

rsholland · November 2004

I sure hope the B9X comes with a full-size spare, like the Forester.

Bob

sduford · November 2004

I never quite understood why people put so much importance on having a full-size spare.

In 28 years of driving, I only had one flat tire. So the likelihood that I will ever use the spare, let alone have to drive a long distance with it, is rather minimal.

I really don't care about it too much. In fact I'd rather have extra storage space then a full-size spare.

But to each his own I guess.

alpha01 · November 2004

The RX330 clocks 7.8 to 60, according to Car and Driver. Certainly not blazing, but hardly slow. Its just a matter of how much slower that Subaru can afford for the B9 to be. (Given the 600 lb weight difference, the dimensional comparsion in the links above between the RX330 and the XC90 is surprising, though Im sure some of the RX330s advantages in rear seat space are owed to the XC's 3rd row... but still 600 more lbs???)

Bob, really? the B9X 1000 lbs heavier than an OB? Thats really REALLY a lot of weight.

Does anyone have stats on the acceleration of any of the OB H6 wagons? I dont think Ive seen any tested...

~alpha

nowakj66 · November 2004

Here is hoping for tilt and telescope steering wheel and / or adjustable pedals - making a Subaru I can fit in!

rsholland · November 2004

Bob, really? the B9X 1000 lbs heavier than an OB? Thats really REALLY a lot of weight.

Well we don't know yet, but yes, it's very possible, if it's like the others in this class.

Also, the RX330 has a 300cc larger engine.; not a huge difference, but it helps nonetheless.

Bob

ateixeira · November 2004

Interesting info, Jon. I still say any hybrid is at least 2 model years away (MY2007). And even though FHI can engineer things on their own, GM still has a lot of control on what they invest in.

Now, if GM thinks it can use the Lamilion technology, and Subaru is their guinea pig...

Direct injection is great, I can't believe how slow the industry has been to adopt this technology. I guess it just doesn't get the headlines like hybrids do.

-juice

ateixeira · November 2004

250hp is maybe average or slightly below for the class now. You beat the entry level Bimmer and the lightest, lowest powered RX, but that's about it.

Everyone else has more power.

So it's not premium. It would be sort of entry-level near-luxury, if you can accept that redundancy.

XC90 just added a V8 option. The turbo-5 just doesn't cut it. X5 has a V8 option. RX will have a hybrid option with the equivalent of 270hp.

I think the biggest obstacle may be the Pilot. Honda is adding features like a moonroof, Nav, and stability control. Yet the Pilot is mainstream, not near-lux.

If the Subie is less powerful and smaller, what makes it premium? Nicer materials? I think it needs more substance than that to be premium.

Edit: oh, forgot to make my point! LOL

My point is, if they come in low, you gotta remember, this is a moving target. 265hp is about par today. Two years from now the target would have moved, probably to 280-300 or so.

-juice

interceptor07 · November 2004

B9X?

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=178&sid=178&a- rticle=7528

trueawd · November 2004

I'm guessing and of course always hearing that it will be launched with the 3.0 6cyl. I think they will have to increase torque to at least 230 plus. With that in mind it will be very competetive. They still have to keep price and fuel economy in mind. Plus like the Outback/Leg they will probably use some aluminum in Hood and tail gate for weight reduc. 0-60 will be around 8.5 secs, which is not bad, actually if you look at the other that falls in the middle. I mean it's not going to be like $45,000, so how can you excpect it to have a super nutty engine right off the bat? Then my guess is next year B9XT..low pressure turbo with 300 plus HP and Tqe. I agree with Juice no Hybrid yet. Subaru is just to small to mass produce right now...For sure later though cause they do have their own technology.

True

atlgaxt · November 2004

OK - so retuning the 3.0 boxer for 250lbs of torque is probably not feasible. But I still think they can get more torque out of this engine at a lower rpm using existing technology, even if it costs them some hp on the upper end.

I was just looking on the BMW website. The 3.0 inline six in the X5 puts out 225 horsies and 214 lb ft of torque. BMW claims it will move this 4,700 lb vehicle to 60 in about 8 seconds and pull a 6,000 lb trailer.

Looking at the Forester, one thing Subaru does know how to do is to build a roomy and safe but relatively light vehicle so I am hoping that the B9X will continue this tradition being closer to 4,000 lbs. If so, the 3.0 in the B9X should offer a better power to weight then the NA 2.5 in the Outback / Legacy and would be competitive in its class.

Then, in the next model year I would expect a turbo or hybrid that will be a class leader, and in two years maybe a turbo and hybrid STI version, for all the mommys who want to do doughnuts out on the soccer fields. Seems like a sensible plan to me (except for the last part).

dewey · November 2004

B9X 3.0L H6 versus a 270hp highlander hybrid?

Is it not obvious which vehicle would be a more compelling buy, especially if the hyrid highlander sells at a lower price?

God forbid if a hybrid Pilot(there are rumors of such a vehicle) arrives to compete with a 3.0 B9X.

If there will be no hyrid/turbo versions, Subaru will have to be careful about the pricing of the B9X. This part of the market is very competitive.

atlgaxt · November 2004

With all this talk about hp, I did not bring up the thing that does concern me. I am constantly amazing myself at how much I can put in my Forester because it is a little box on wheels. And considering it is just a little box, Subaru did a fairly good job in not making it too ugly.

I know the renderings we have all seen are not reality, but based upon the renderings and the spy shots the B9X is a curvy vehicle, which will cost it utility. We looked at a Murano and liked it prior to buying our Forester, but one of the things I figured out is for whatever total cubic feet of cargo area Nissan claims for the Murano, the usable will be less because of the shape.

If the B9X loses utility due to styling (which is interesting but somewhat odd looking IMHOP), that is what will really hurt it as compared to a Pilot.

ateixeira · November 2004

Looking at those pics again, that test mule must be the real deal. You see the shoulder bulge around the back, the hood matches, etc. That's it.

Dewey is onto something - pricing will be very critical. If it really does start at $33k with a 3l H6, I hope that already includes all the equipment in the Outback VDC, i.e. it's loaded.

Add just a Nav option, maybe HIDs as a stand-alone option. And then accessories.

Hybrids will cost more. I bet the Highlander hybrid comes in at high 30s, because I suspect the model will come loaded up plus you gotta factor about $3000 extra for the drivetrain.

Remember - the Highlander will be a V6+hybrid, not a value price 4 banger.

-juice

rsholland · November 2004

cost an additional $3K or so over the non-hybrid versions. Even the Civic hybrid has that kind of cost penalty I believe. So, the top-of-the-line B9X (the $40K version) could have that feature.

Bob

ateixeira · November 2004

I agree, I think if and when they do a B9X hybrid (B9X-H?) then it would run around $40k.

I think it would have Nav built-in, since the screens are usually already there.

And yes, more than a Highlander, closer to what an RX400H would cost.

-juice

rsholland · November 2004

while nothing has officially been announced, the figures being bantered about ranges from ~ $34K  $40K. That's a pretty big range. So what could they offer to span a $6K range between an already fully-loaded base model and the full-montie version?

I really think a hybrid could be one of those features.

Bob

ateixeira · November 2004

True...I don't see how a 250hp model could get up to $40k.

If it's a premium vehicle I bet all the equipment from the VDC comes standard.

-juice

rsholland · November 2004

that VDC will be standard across the board. This is from a supposedly knowledgable Subie dealer. We'll see...

Bob

rsholland · November 2004

NAV and rear DVD is a given, at least in terms of options.

Bob

ateixeira · November 2004

I hope for $33k we see leather and a moonroof already included in the price.

Even though I like cloth, I think at that price it would be a mistake.

Pilots have leather starting at $32,120. If the B9X costs a grand more for startets, it's smaller, and has less power, well, it had better be very well equipped.

So I'm hoping the B9X already has all that stuff. Then, later, if they choose, they can do a Sport model, like they did for the Baja, and remove leather and some frills.

In the long run, I'd like to see a lineup like this:

B9X Sport, $30k: 250hp H6, cloth
B9X Limited, $33k: leather, 250hp H6, moonroof
B9XT Sport, $33k: 3.0LPT with 300hp
B9XT Limited, $36k: LPT with leather/moonroof
B9X Hybrid, $37k: Nav standard

Then make Nav a stand-alone option, maybe $1500, for the non hybrids. Maybe offer a DVD player for about the same amount, also stand-alone.

So prices would range from $30k (good value) to 39k for a loaded up hybrid with DVD. If they don't break the 40k price barrier I think it would be great.

-juice

ateixeira · November 2004

I should add:

B9X STi, $40k: 350hp 3.0 twin turbo!

:-)

-juice

rsholland · November 2004

from this same guy, is that a moonroof will be standard on all models, and that there will be a cloth-seat model.

Bob

ateixeira · November 2004

That's good and bad.

I like moonroofs. And it will set it apart from the Pilot (though I hear it's getting one).

It's an option even on the MDX. So that would set the B9X apart from the Pilot.

Bad news is cloth for $33k is a big no-no. I just hope it's cheaper than that.

-juice

c_hunter · November 2004

MDX has moonroof as standard equipment even on the base model.

Craig

ateixeira · November 2004

I stand corrected. I checked my 2002 buyer's guide and sure enough a moonroof was standard even back then.

I guess that's one big thing that made is stand apart from the Pilot.

-juice

xyz2004slc · November 2004

This is going to be a great truck. If they interior is designed like the new legacys and outbacks, with 300 HP under the hood, and called something other than "Tribeca", its going to be a homerun!

But are Subaru navs reliable...

ateixeira · November 2004

They've never sold a Nav system here in the US. In Japan they do. I haven't heard feedback about how well the Nav system works, though.

Hopefully it'll work as well as Acura's, which seems to lead the category and is listed as a B9X competitor.

-juice

bsvoller · November 2004

Well, lot's of discussion on the B9X already.

I have to say that if this goes as described above, I'll be a bit torn. On the one hand, it's too rich for me to seriously contemplate - my pain threshold is in the mid-20's, not the mid-30's; on the other hand, it's a thing of beauty, and I'm happy that Subaru is pushing into new segments and extending their line.

As far as the hybrid goes, am I wrong in thinking that hybrid = towing-performance-is-nil ? That's a deal killer for me. I don't "get" hybrid trucks or SUV's, sorry.

As far as the turbo goes, am I wrong in thinking that the 2.5T per the Outback would make a very nice base engine ? Our MPV makes just 200hp with it's normally aspirated 3.0l Duratec-derived engine, weighs 3800#, seats 7 comfortably, is 2" shorter than the new Accord, and comes off the line very nicely with its 5-speed AT, thank you. Add 50 hp, 50 ft-lbs of torque and AWD per the Outback, and it would be very nice indeed. I'd have gladly paid 3k extra for the privilege. A similarly spec'd 3.0 would be just fine, too, as far as I'm concerned, if the price were right.

Would that power train be appropriate to compete with the RX330's of the world ? No, of course not. But it sure would suit Subaru's traditional buyer just fine, expecially if it had great emissions and better mileage courtesy of VVT, which Ford/Mazda can't be bothered with in our engine (sigh). We're getting 20/24mpg real-world, which isn't too bad for a 7-passenger vehicle, but Toyota does as well with the much larger and heavier Sienna, so there's room for improvement, too.

I'd love to see a sub-$30k 2.5T B9X-light "for the rest of us". I've been looking for something in that range for a few years now, but settled for the MPV when our second car died.

You guys can fight over the $40+k 450hp 3.8l T version. I'm out. That's a pile of dough into a depreciating asset, maybe someday...

Cheers,

-brianV

alpha01 · November 2004

Lots of great discussion today!

Juice- One point to consider is that the 33K Lexus RX does not have Leather as standard equipment. Its just that the factory doesnt build RXs without option packages including the leather. So, if you want a cloth RX, you're going to order it, and wait... and wait.... OR you can take a more desirable leather RX for another 2-7 grand depending on pkg and drive away that day.

My point- leather doesnt exactly have to be standard in this class, as the RX330 certainly exemplies that sales arent hurting. (Unfortunately I think its one thing for Lexus to get away with a practice like that, and another for Subaru to attempt it, given the brand cachet).

Question: The real competition for the B9X? Is it the MDXs of the world or the Pilots, or can we expect comparisions to depend on trim level as in the case of the Legacy (2.5i sedan competing against the Camcords, Altima, 6.... and the GT-Limiteds competing with the Audi A4 1.8Ts, Volvo S40s, Acura TSXs)?

~alpha

xyz2004slc · November 2004

Bad news is cloth for $33k is a big no-no. I just hope it's cheaper than that.

MB obviously thinks its ok; the base M350 at a whopping 38 grand has standard cloth! Can you believe that!

flapper · November 2004

Is it just me, or in the spy photos of the B9X do the windows appear to have frames?

c_hunter · November 2004

It's not just you, they do have frames. That would be a departure for Subaru!

Craig

rsholland · November 2004

Maybe my expectations are too high!

Nope. You're right on target. This vehicle needs to be really special. Let's hope that Subaru comes through here.

Bob

dewey · November 2004

When I saw the B9X last Friday I got excited about a 3.0T vehicle that would be able to compete with a Porsche Cayenne. I got excited about a B9X hybrid that would redefine high performance/efficiency in a SUV.

The truth of this vehicle appears more benign.

If a hybrid B9X is delayed by a few years, there wont be much excitement about it. By that time hybrids may be as common as air conditioned vehicles (ok a bit of an exaggeration).

If a turbo B9X appears in future years, what good will a gas guzzling turbo be when gas prices are likely to be higher. The turbo feature may actually be a liability in a world with $3 per gallon gas prices.

So in the next few months there will likely be a B9X with a 3.0l H6 engine. What would be the compelling reason to buy such a vehicle versus the competition? What really differentiates this vehicle from the Hondas and Toyotas?

Subaru traditionally differentiated itself from others by providing customers something that the competition did not provide. Subaru was the first company to have AWD available on all its vehicles. Subaru was the first company that introduced vehicle that can compete with the much more expensive BMW M3(WRX sti). In the 90s the Outback was quite a radical idea.

B9X appears to break this tradition. On the Subaru website I cannot find one thing that makes the B9X special or radically different from the competition.

Maybe my expectations are too high!

rsholland · November 2004

The B9X will be sold in Chile. Huh???

http://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=8734

What's with Chile? They also get the Baja.

Bob

rsholland · November 2004

nabisco's better illustrators, Achilles38WRX, came up with this, combining the test mule image with the latest sketch from SOA.

http://www.freebmw.net/achilles/B11I/B9x_R1.jpg

I think he's about 99% right.

Bob

once_for_all · November 2004

looking good, the new grille reminds me of current generation BMWs.

I like the drawing better than the spy shots.

John

subaru_team · November 2004

we'll see a lot of product comparison information to help see why Subaru will be the right choice. I'm waiting for information myself to release here. Before we get to far with deciding if it will be a let down, let's see what is in store! I sincerely hope you are pleasantly surprised. Stay tuned!!

Patti

Subaru B9 Tribeca (B9X)

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