Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

gsemike · December 2004

One thing is for sure: with the axle damaged, you can bet that they laid a beating on this thing.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

That car is hurt bad...REAL bad. This is no "easy fix". Think about how far that wheel has travelled and what was attached to it at the time.

Wrecking yard! Let's give some deserving kid that engine!

jlawrence01 · December 2004

If it was such an easy fix, the individual selling it would have made the fix and be driving it right now.

There is a certain person on this board who once said that he could take nearly any car over 5 years old and could total it for the cost bringing it up to manufacturer's standards. On this one, the airbages alone are what $3k? Looks like it could be a real mess.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

(valley girl accent) "omigod...this car is...like...like....sooooooo totalled...."

ghulet · December 2004

It's always entertaining when someone apparently unable or unwilling to fix a car (supposedly worth $9k) tells you what an 'easy fix' it is. Anyone notice the driver's door appears to be hanging open (and seems to have duct tape residue around it)? And that the LF wheel well lining is haning out? This suggests some structural damage, no? The body looks OK, so I'm thinking this thing was dragged around or went seriously airbound (with a seriously hard landing) somehow; I mean, how else would the airbags have deployed? I don't see this thing being fixed for anything near the $4k gap between the Buy It Now and its 'retail value' (which is inaccurate anyway, given its title status). Plus, it's an automatic and has over 100k. G'bye!!

gsemike · December 2004

Looking at that front wheel now, I've got to wonder if it's got frame damage.

From the background in the pics, it looks like this seller has some sort of business in repairables. I don't know if he buys them and flips them, or if he repairs them. In any event, it looks like the complexity of the required repairs has been understated and the potential value overstated.

To be fair, it looks like the airbags were stolen though.

lemko · December 2004

...until you look at that left front wheel. Other than the air bag, I could probably repair most of the other damage myself. Too many unknowns. Would pass on this one.

seminole_kev · December 2004

I vote for scrap on that one.

fintail · December 2004

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =4507995126&indexURL=2#ebayphotohosting

Poster on a MB forum just paid $1600 for this

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

Well if it runs really well, that's about market price, maybe a little high since the interior is so trashed. Looks like about a $1,200 car all in all. The pile of what I guess were once "parts" in the trunk isn't re-assuring. Makes you wonder how they patched this baby up.

But at $1,600 no real harm done as long as nothing big goes wrong. Kind of a tired looking old thing. Where's the love?

andre1969 · December 2004

I think it's definitely worth saving.

fintail · December 2004

I think it's market price too. The car isn't too bad physically...I think the interior just needs a detailing. The mirrors are funky and incorrect and the hubcaps need to be painted. But it seems too good to scrap. The guy who bought it is just going to get it roadworthy and use it as a driver.

One thing that sets off an alarm is that it is not a 1965 model as the ad states. Fintails from early 1963 on had dual circuit brakes, and by looking at the master cylinder on this car, it does not have these brakes. The serial number given also points to an earlier car, probably early in the 1963 model year production run. Damn I'm a geek about these things.

I paid $1600 for my fintail 10 years ago, maybe in one grade better condition. I have a handful of parts in my trunk too.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

There's a lot about the car, even from photos, which suggests that this car is a patched up pile of bolts. But as ever, we wish the dreamer that his dreams come true, whatever they may be. For me, nothing looks shabbier than a shabby Mercedes. It's one car that never looks good even a bit ratty.

fintail · December 2004

Any shabby once-upscale car is the saddest thing on the road. A ruined Rolls or even a once-grand old Caddy can be depressing in a way.

That fintail also likely has had a drivers door replacement. Mirrors were on the fender through 63, on the door for 64-65. That car has both. I hope it's at least good mechanically.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

A blue spray painted valve cover is not a good sign for a Benz.

fintail · December 2004

The prospective buyer of the car ended up passing, upon further inspection. Turns out the sills were a mess and it needs floors. Surprise surprise.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

Aren't we good? We can smell them even on a computer screen!

stickguy · December 2004

Oh come on. That's like predicting a survivor '65 Mustang is going to need floor pans. Just too easy!

seminole_kev · December 2004

or that it would have rust around the cowling. I remember my '66 needed both a new floor pan (ahem that I just pop riveted in some sheet metal.....hey I told the guy I was selling it to about it!) and it had some rust in the guttering in the cowl.

It was a neglected Pennsylvania car, so it had a weeee bit of rust. Worked for a first car though.

andre1969 · December 2004

had some rust in the driver's side floorpan, from leakage around the windshield and from the fresh air intake, over the decades. I pulled the carpeting out and sanded it down the best I could. Then I took a paint brush and painted a thick layer of waterproof exterior house paint. Then I took some silver Krylon or DupliColor, or something like that, and sprayed over the house paint.

Well, that was back in 1993, almost 12 years ago. The car still leaks from time to time, but I've never put my foot through the floor boards. Still, I'm almost scared now, after all that time, to lift the carpet again!

stickguy · December 2004

reminds me of my '75 Corolla (bought well used). It had some damage right behind the drivers side front wheel, which led to a hole in the floor(sorta to the left of the clutch pedal, where it starts to curve up). Anyway, being a poor student, I lookded around the garage, and found a spare roof shingle.

Anyway, some body filler to hold it in place, and that shingle made a perfect floor board patch (just peeled the mat back, installed, and covered it over).

Bringing this back on topic, even the pros (or at least the TV shows like Dream Car garage) seem to get surprised by what they find when they strip a car down. So any of these project cars, even with a basic pre-purchase inspection, are likely to divulge deep dark secrets as the work progresses.

To me, I am either buying a car to use as is (either a beater or one that was fully restored), or plan a full resto. At least that way you have some expectations.

The worst thing you can do is get a car that you know has some needs, but you only want to do simple/cheap stuff to it (just the "basics"). I think this is where all those failed projects you see on Ebay come from.

Actually, the best bet might be to get on Overhaulin. At least it is quick and you don't have to pay for it.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

Okay, help me put a value on this car:

1969 Chevy Chevelle Malibu 2 door hardtop.

"Matching numbers" 350 V8 w/ original 4 speed manual transmission. Color maroon.

Body looks good from 20 feet. Has plenty bondo says the magnet. Some rust bubbles at rocker panels, some rust bubbling at windshield trim and rear windscreen trim. Chrome bumpers have rust spots. Interior okay, but hole in carpet near gas pedal, door panels faded, seats (buckets) faded, headlliner sagging. Runs well, you can drive it home. One owner 30 years, engine rebuilt ten years ago.

Price range?

seminole_kev · December 2004

I stink at pricing the "classic name" cars from the sixties (always worth more in a sorry shape than I'd pay) so I don't know. To me, maybe $1000-$1500 if it runs alright (which means it is probably worth more) but I will say this:

Cost of chrome has gone through the roof. Probably spend a good chunk of the difference between this car and a quality one on chrome bits alone. Someone needs to come up with a cheaper/more environmentally friendly way to chrome stuff!

andre1969 · December 2004

I might go a bit higher, maybe $1500-2000. I'm guessing that factory 4-speed has to be worth something. And with a 350, it would still be a decent performer by today's standards. Not a musclecar, but a far cry from an inline 6 or a 307.

Plus, if it's a Chevy from that era, that name just pulls a lot more respect and lust than an equivalent Tempest/LeMans, Special, or Cutlass, or Ford or Mopar.

For some reason, the '68-72 GM intermediates were notorious for rear-window rustout, although after 30+ years, I guess you can't really fault any unrestored car for having it by now!

gsemike · December 2004

But a factory 350, 4 speed car does have a certain cache to it. Is it basically a stock car? Are you thinking of it as a driver, or for restoration? If you're thinking resto, you're probably looking at a full body strip and interior gutting. If it's truly presentable as a driver where the body may look decent for a few more years without work, it might be worth as much as $3,000. Just really think about the work to be done because all parts for these have gotten so expensive and remember, it's not an SS. Additionally, it seems like 70-72s garner higher prices than 68-69. There is probably a halo effect from the 454 car.

stickguy · December 2004

I think you could probably get 4K for it if it looks respectable. Sounds like a good candidate for a cloning? Probably depends on the condition of the body, but if the rust is minor enough to be fixable, sounds like a minor DIY restore could give yo a nice cruiser. This assumes the drvietrain (having been rebuilt) is strong.

Of course, to me, the 4 speed is the key. I wouldn't give you 1K for it with an AT.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

Yeah, $4,000-$5,000 is what I think market is, given that it's a "real" 350 with its original 4-speed. There's a big difference in the market between a 350 and a 307. Of course, I'm also factoring in California, where the market is red hot for muscle right now.

I could also see a somewhat lower price, but I think personally you could get more $1,500 if it was in pieces in a dumpster.

gsemike · December 2004

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&cate- - gory=6256&item=4510430723&rd=1

This car is a little different for this forum. The bidding on this car is $300 right now with some time to go, so let's call it $450.

Whenever I look at the ebay listings, I'm always surprised by how many cars I see with way high miles. There are routinely cars with 250k and more and they all supposedly run great.

This one here has 156k and it many not have been remarkable before it got vandalized. We're looking at repairing the damage from the vandalism and doing mechanical repairs.

What would this car in average condition with 156k be worth without the vandalism and not in need of mechanical repairs be worth??? A grand??? I'm surprised that the biddign is up to $300. This car is worth more as parts than it is whole.

fintail · December 2004

I don't get it

Guy I know at work has is the original owner of a well maintained 100K mile 90 Civic hatch in pretty nice shape he's talked about letting go for about $2000. No damage at all...and only $1700 more than that bid.

jlawrence01 · December 2004

That Ebay seller could at least post a couple of pictures to show what he is selling ...

ghulet · December 2004

....why would anyone WANT to buy that thing, put probably $1500 worth of work (and that's IF you did the body labor) into a fifteen year-old Civic (and automatic, ick!) that'd be worth $1500 if perfect? Just buy a decent one to begin with, it's not like they're rare, at all. I suppose you could just replace the glass, fix the mechanical stuff and let the body stay bruised up. Otherwise, junk it.

gsemike · December 2004

This car doesn't warrant the effort to recondition it. With 156k, the max is probably $15oo if that. Needed a CV and a starter, you're not even getting a beater.

andre1969 · December 2004

on something like that? Back in the day, a starter wasn't more than 40-50 bucks. But those little lightweight things that they use on more modern cars get get really pricey. How do I know? In the late 80's, Mopar started using the same starter that Honda did. Weeeellll, what works fine on a tiny, lightweight 4-cyl engine isn't quite as well on a copcar 318! Those suckers would burn up, break their shafts, and all sorts of fun things.

andys120 · December 2004

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

Civics are a dime a dozen. Just go buy one.

seminole_kev · December 2004

...part it out/junk it.

andre1969 · December 2004

at the next football demolition derby game!

seminole_kev · December 2004

seems way overpriced to me in its condition and the fact it is a "V6" model (straightest looking V6 I've ever seen ;-) but:

Currently $3000 with a buy it now of $4500. Hmmm. Seems a wee bit optimistic to me.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&cate- - gory=6405&item=4512294022&rd=1

gsemike · December 2004

I'd only be interested in this for a 455 build up. The straight 6 doesn't give it any special charm in my eyes. I don't really know how much work it is to upgrade to the 455. If all I had to do was new springs and raditator, this might be worth the $3,ooo, definately not $4,5oo.

This cars value is in a build up to own and enjoy, not as an investment. Does it have a 3 sp auto? Does it have front discs? I'd need more info, but maybe $3k.... maybe.

fintail · December 2004

It seems steep...but looks worth saving for the right person. I imagine that engine is no fun.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

eBay bidders hit the market correctly at $3K, and in fact were generous.

stickguy · December 2004

the Olds does nothing for me as is, but does look like a possibility for a project, assuming the chassis is straight and rust free.

ghulet · December 2004

....this car has two things going for it: it's from California, and given the straight six engine, it certainly hasn't been raced or abused (at least not in the hot-rodding sense). A classic case of a car being rare yet undesirable. I mean, half the reason anyone wants an old Cutlass is for the 350 or 455 that the vast majority have under the hood. The straight six is very strange, especially in a hardtop. Though this car does have carpet rather than vinyl floor (I think, it's awfully thin) and a 'deluxe' steering wheel, I think this is a base Cutlass (as indicated on the insignia on the front fender, but no VIN listed, so I can't tell), production=1345 units (the six-cylinder Cutlass 'S' two-door hardtop production=169 units). So, yeah, it's rare, but eeew! I'm guessing that since it has the Chevy 250, it's probably mated to a Powerglide. Lots of work ahead, I can't see more than $3k for this thing, especially since one can get a pretty nice V8 Cutlass 'S' or Supreme hardtop from this era, with a real engine/trans and more equipment, for $6-9k.

ghulet · December 2004

...this Cutlass Supreme needing probably about the same amount of work (interior and some mechanical, but with nicer body IMO) and certainly a lot more interesting (350 four-barrel, SX equipment and power windows), has a Buy It Now of around the same price:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&cate- - gory=6405&item=4512307630&rd=1

andre1969 · December 2004

maybe $1000, at best, for that '71 Cutlass, if I needed a car. I had forgotten that you could still get a 6-cyl in them by that time. Considering how cheap and free-flowing the fuel was back then though, I'd imagine the vast majority of Cutlasses had the Olds 350. I don't think it was until the '73-77 redesign that small, undersized engines became really common. And they'd probably be even WORSE in one of those cars.

The body on this '71 looks pretty good, except that it appears to have been smacked a few times in the front. And any car that has a peak/beak theme upfront like that is prone to plenty of damage, because as the beak/peak gets pushed in, often it'll still look more or less okay, but put stress on other parts of the car.

And I don't know what that is on the floor of the car, but it doesn't look like carpet to me. Looks like some kind of padded mat-type material.

Another killer for me is the color of the car. I can't stand that gold color, although I think this is one case where a vinyl roof helps. It tones down the gold, and provides a more subdued accent.

It'd definitely be a fun car to build up, but as is, unless you had a car like this as a kid, and are sorely nostalgic for it, I'd pass on it.

gsemike · December 2004

I think that this one looks alot more messed with even though it's got the 350. P/W isn't that extremely rare and I find the fastback models more appealing. Being that the 70 may have been in the hands of a butcher, I prefer the 71. Does the guy with the 70 even mention the mileage? It's had to have been around to get the back seat so worn.

andre1969 · December 2004

I don't think I've ever had a car with a back seat that looked that bad! Now to be fair, my 338,000 mile 1968 Dart doesn't have its original back seat anymore, but when I bought the car, at 253,000 miles, the back seat was fine, but just a little faded and discolored with age. The front was pretty torn up, though. And the seats were white vinyl, which, let's face it, looks dirty 15 minutes after it rolls off the showroom floor! Anyway, I put in some black bucket seats out of a '69 Dart GT that I had totaled, and I swapped the back seat too, so it would all match. The white front bench out of the '68 ultimately found itself in a dumpster, while the back seat went into the '69, and went with it when I finally called the junkyard to come get it.

Then, in early '97, someone sold me a front and back seat out of an early 70's A-body for $25. Looked fine, except for one small rip on the driver's side backrest. By this time, the driver's side bucket was getting really ratty looking, although the back seat was still good. I think some of the stitching at the top might have been thinning though.

The back seat of my '79 Newport, which had about 250,000 miles on it when I got rid of it, was just about perfect. So was the back seat of my 192K '86 Monte Carlo, and my Grandma's 157K '85 LeSabre.

I wonder if the back seat of that '70 Cutlass might have been pulled out of the car from time to time? Or maybe the owner used it to store car parts and such? Sometimes when a car sits around too long, things like that happen to it!

fintail · December 2004

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- - - - =4512450439&fromMakeTrack=true

The seller has a good feedback record, but the VIN is 111026, so this is a coupe with a sawed off roof. Or, perhaps the seller copied the VIN incorrectly. In any case, it's not worth restoring if it truly is a coupe chop job.

stickguy · December 2004

I can't imagine how much money you would have to sink into that Benz to make it functional. Can a nice driver really be worth that much?

A fright pig, even without fire damage! And, how cold the owner not even bother to wipe up the extinquisher residue?

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

Potentially these cars are worth $50,000 if sharp, $65K pristine show, and so there is room to fix it, definitely. Even a nice driver is worth $40K.

These are very valuable, very desirable cars and will pull strong money even crushed like a beer can.

Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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