Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

andre1969 · January 2013

I've seen a few conversions of final-gen Eldorados that did something similar, where they'd throw a second Northstar in the trunk to power the rear wheels. I think there was actually a company that was doing it, for awhile.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

I expected to see some script on the fender with the name "Death Trap".

bhill2 · January 2013

I expected to see some script on the fender with the name "Death Trap".

Now let's be fair. It's four-wheel drive; doesn't that count for something?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

Examination of the construction techniques did not inspire my confidence.

bhill2 · January 2013

You've got a point. It would not be a good thing to have it convert from four-wheel drive to two-wheel drive because two of the wheels (and associated drive train) fell off.

fintail · January 2013

A twin for my car, albeit more aged...I'd like to have that headrest anyway

Color name - "kermit"?

Definite period piece, nice condition, shame about the fault

Suddenly it's 1991!

Seldom seen flat top

Expensive restored fintail, wrong about the year

Freakshow

Would be cool restored

Lovely W115

Nice hubcaps

This might be a better deal for the tin can shopper

Nice glasshouse

Lawn ornament

I'll admit I like this, seller probably wants the moon for it

A real G-Wagen

Ford bustle

Classy beater, Euro model too

CRV's great-grandfather

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

Honda AWD wagon---that would be a nice car to have!

500 SEL -- money pit

Ferrari 400i--- actually it's the cheapest Ferrari money can buy. Ferrari miles are like dog years--if a Ferrari has over 30,000 on it, that is considered extremely high. A 400i that's nice should sell for no more than $20,000 to $32,000 tops.

Corvair Rampside -- another sleeper that's worth restoring.

Mercedes 200 Fintail---the seller is crazy. Might be worth 1/2 that.

73 Montego -- the car misses the cut-off date for most people's interest (1971) but really if it's nice and clean, rebuilding the transmission is no big deal. Car might definitely be worth the money!

81 Lancia Beta---recycle for Turkish teapot industry.

1960 Olds 4DHT -- if it's a #4 car, which it sounds like, it's worth about 1/2 asking price.

xwesx · January 2013

Agree on the Civic wagon. I'd love to have that car.

bhill2 · January 2013

The 300D caught my eye because I almost bought one just that year and model. It was in 1978 and I was living in Richland WA and driving a Volvo that was ready to be replaced. The local Volvo dealer also sold Saab, Datsun, and I think John Deere tractors, so I was reluctant to buy another. I happened to notice that the Mercedes dealer in Spokane (about 150 miles away) had this car, which had been traded in by a couple who went with a 300SD when they first came out. I went up and drove it and loved it (it wasn't exactly a rocket, but then I was driving a Volvo). I didn't buy it because I didn't want to have to take it up there for service. Found out later that there was an independent shop in Richland that people came from Spokane to have service performed on their Mercedes. I have always regretted not buying that car. Got a Scirocco instead (go figure). It was a good enough car, but not my style.

fintail · January 2013

Spokane - Sutherland Motors? I was born in Yakima and grew up in Moses Lake, still remember the old dealer names. I think Hahn had the Yakima MB agency, I don't know if Tri-Cities had one yet (back in the 80s anyway). I am still kind of amazed how many MBs there were out in the high desert back then, with dealers being pretty far away. My interest was started with a two tone highline fintail that lived across the street from me, and a doctor my parents knew who had a W126 300SD that somehow interested me. The rest is history :shades:

I like that 300D a lot, if it is as nice in person as it looks in pics. Great colors.

qbrozen · January 2013

I really like the 2002 and the brown b210.

bhill2 · January 2013

I don't know if Tri-Cities had one yet (back in the 80s anyway).

In fact, it was in the late '70s and I will guarantee you there was no MB dealer in the Tri-Cities.

At the time, driving the 300D was a revelation to this small-town boy. I thought the Volvo handled well, which it did relative to the domestic offerings of the time. But one of my coworkers had come with me (just to get out of the Tri-Cities for a day) and at one point during the test drive I was doing about 60 down a semi-paved road and she wasn't even aware anything unusual was going on. I fell in love with that car and if I had known about the independent mechanic in Richland I would have kissed my Volvo goodbye and left in the 300D without a backward glance.

texases · January 2013

"I really like the 2002 and the brown b210. "

Couldn't pick two more different vehicles...that 2002 caught my attention, too, but I'd sure prefer a small bumper one. And the later wheels just don't do it for me.

fintail · January 2013

I remember being in the Tri-Cities and noticing a MB dealer maybe i the early 90s, but not before. That area has really grown in the past 20-25 years, different from when I was a little kid. Yakima and ML are very different now too.

If you had bought that car, you very well might still own it - they last forever, and are immune from racing-created crashes.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

I sometimes miss my 300D, but you know, nostalgia is nature's way of allowing us to few the best parts of our past lives without falling into despair.

Once diesel fuel skyrocketed in California, it didn't seem worth it to keep up with the 300D---despite all the mythologies, if you want to drive this car on modern freeways you have to have your foot into it all the time, and that means on a good day you'll get 21 mpg. Not bad for a big car actually, if you aren't in a hurry.

I think the day I decided to get rid of it was up in Lake Tahoe, at high altitude. I was parked on a hill, and even in low gear, the car simply would not move. There was not enough power to overcome the uphill inertia. I had to back down to level ground and charge the hill.

hpmctorque · January 2013

Those 300Ds looked good back in the day, and they still look good. However, from what you've written in the past, their reputation for durability may be somewhat overblown. From your past comments one gets the impression that a Honda Accord may last just as long, if properly maintained (my comparison). That's a big "if", though, because those old 300Ds generally tend to be treated to better maintenance than old Accords. The 300Ds sure age better than the Accords, though.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

Exactly---their durability myth is tied to their excellent build quality...they look good for a long, long time, and consequently people are encouraged to pour money into them.

If you shop for a 300D, I'd bet you any amount of money you'll have to drive 25 of them to find one that is even in halfway decent mechanical condition.

They have the ability to be "walking wounded"--being fairly simply machines, they can stagger along for decades, smoking, ailing, with half their systems inoperative, and the driver bragging "yeah, they run forever".

And they do, sort of.

But to find one in acceptable running and cosmetic order? Well, lotsa luck with that.

hpmctorque · January 2013

I wonder whether two of the reasons they seem to age better, visually, than their high volume counterparts are because of their luxury image, and that you see them less often. Would they age better than Accords if their prices and volumes were reversed?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

that's hard to say---some of them haven't aged well at all, and others, that look great, have had substantial amounts of money poured into them.

I guess it really depends on who owned them, and for how long. if a 300D falls into the hands of someone cooking up peanut oil in their garage, you know the car is probably not going to get the best of care.

fintail · January 2013

If the Accord also had the same build/material quality, maybe. But many of them didn't, especially the pre-82 models. IMO, the Accord wasn't really overdone until the 1990+ model.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

not even close in build quality.

I don't mind automotive mythology---I even like it. I just won't spend money based on it.

fintail · January 2013

I guess it depends on the car. I'd spend 6K on a pristine 76 300D before I'd spend it on a pristine 76 Accord, even if both have a rep for being very solid.

hpmctorque · January 2013

I'm in full agreement with you on this. I've never heard of anyone who restored an Accord, or even put more than a modest amount more than the market value in one. The latter could happen for a transmission repair, if the owner liked his Accord and wanted to keep it, but it's far more likely to happen with a 300D.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

I don't think an old Accord has any particular mythology attached to it.

fintail · January 2013

Well, they have a huge rep for being reliable and durable (in the right climate anyway), especially for the era. Does any car have the mythology of an old MB diesel?

fintail · January 2013

There might be some nuts out there preserving or restoring 1st gen cars, and certainly someone somewhere will end up spending more than they should. But I think most would spend elsewhere. A cosmetically nice old MB will generate a little irrational loyalty, I know this firsthand :shades:

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

It's the SD you really want, not the D.

fintail · January 2013

My preferred diesel would be a W126 300SD turbo, with a W123 300 TD (turbo/wagon) second.

hpmctorque · January 2013

Well, yeah, there's always the exception, but as well designed and executed as those old Accords are (and the newer and new ones too), they're to be used up and scrapped when they get miled up. Most MBs, BMWs, muscle cars and some others retain their cache' much longer, so spending money on them is easier to justify. Well preserved late '70s-early '80s Accords have cache' by virtue of their memory and scarcity value.

fintail · January 2013

That's true. It seems many MBs also languish for longer in parts car condition, as they tend to be broken up and stripped rather than crushed as a whole. The cachet and mythology at work.

Certainly a mint 76 Accord is rarer than a mint 76 MB. First gen cars are pretty rare as a whole, anymore.

lemko · February 2013

I will probably be able to find a 1976 Mercedes in mint condition long before I find ANY 1976 Accord in any condition around here. There was a 300D for sale a couple blocks over from my place. I was considering buying it until I found out it would be slower than molasses in January above the arctic circle.

fintail · February 2013

There are some first gen cars still around here. I remember a very early Accord in town when I was a teenager (90s), old people car, it looked brand new. I suspect it is still there.

Oh, a 300D is molasses in May. A 240D is molasses in January. And a 190D fintail or even older diesel - cold tar.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

I doubt if many 1976 Accords even exist anymore....perhaps a handful stashed somewhere.

boomchek · February 2013

$5k for a 1964 Continental Convertible but it looks like it needs everything.

1964 Continental on Craiglist

I'd paint it black as I think it's a more desirable color for these cars but I'm guessing mechanicals could be $5k on the low side, paint and body $10k, and interior another $4k? I'd be in it for about $25k if I'm lucky, maybe better off buying a resotred one already?

texases · February 2013

I guess "beauties" are in the eye of the beholder...and I wonder where somedody can find a new or rebuilt "corroborator"...

I bet it'd be $0.50 on the dollar, restoration costs vs. eventual sales price...

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

Oh, you're looking at $60,000 easy to restore this car. This is a large, complicated automobile, with very expensive parts and lots of rare intricate parts that have to be hand-restored.

Im thinking more like

Mechanicals---$12,000 (engine, trans, differential, suspension, brakes, power steering, power brakes, radiator, wiring harness, driveshaft, wheel bearings, springs)

Body and Paint---$18,000 (strip to bare metal, remove all glass and trim, remove interior, remove top, strip dashboard and instruments, steering out, body off, rust repairs, metal fabrication, paint)

Interior -- $8000 (leather upholstery, door panels, carpeting, kick panels, dash

chrome -- $6000

Top -- $3000 -- includes overhaul of top mechanism

Misc -- $10,000 (tires, wheels, trim, electrical, faux finishes, hand fabrications, glass, etc).

boomchek · February 2013

And I guess you gotta find somebody who knows what they're doing. I can't see any common body shops taking on a job like this and doing it properly.

boomchek · February 2013

At 0.50 on the dollar it sounds like a good investment lol :lemon:

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

I know a gentleman who restored a '64 Continental, and I believe his bill was about $124,000. Things kinda got out of hand, but it reminds me of that passage from Macbeth, where he says (paraphrase)---"well, I've waded into the middle of the lake of blood---whether I go forward or back I'll get equally drenched".

Another example of having a budget and budget control before you start your restoration.

boomchek · February 2013

Wow $124k is a lot!

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

Prize-winning car, though. Pretty near perfect no matter where you look.

fintail · February 2013

If you want a perfect showpiece, ante up and restore one yourself. If you want a nice driver, spend 30-40K or so on something someone else sunk 60-70K into.

hpmctorque · February 2013

Ah come on, for a '64 Conti convertible it would be cheap at twice that price!

boomchek · February 2013

Yeah I saw one in LA Craiglist for $35k.

64 Conti in LA

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

Not a very encouraging car from the photos at least (bad paint, hard leather, irregular door gaps)--might be a tarted up rust bucket.

stickguy · February 2013

there is a show on one of the cable channels about a dealer down in miami (south beach classics). on one episode, a guy brought in a conti like this to sell, and wanted soemthing like 20K for it. I think the buy offer was 5K, after the dealer (Ted) pointed out how expensive it was going to be to fix the obvious flaws, like a top that did not work by motor.

classic case of no way to restore for what it is worth, unless you can do all the work yourself, and even then maybe not@!

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

Well let's figure that top of the mountain for this car is $80,000 for a show winner----so if you buy one needing just about everthing, then there's no pot of gold at the end of THAT rainbow.

It's a little different for this other fellow I know---he paid $75K for a certain vintage Maserati---and it, too, is now completely in pieces down to the last nut and bolt---but on the far end, he has a potential value of $375,000---so he has some breathing room there.

fintail · February 2013

The baby moons and general detail issues have me skeptical. They want 35K, might need to knock it down to 25K to set it right. I think nice ones can be had in the 30s. Are you really wanting to buy one?

boomchek · February 2013

I've been looking around to see if I can pick up something old and interesting to fix up and maybe sell. However I know very little about old cars and costs involved into making them presentable.

So far I've just been browsing Craigslist for old Mopars, Camaros, Mustangs, and similiar type of cars. There seem to be plenty non runners for under $5k,
but I just don't want to end up buying one only to bury myself with a $50k restoration and losing money on it.

lemko · February 2013

The wrong wheels and anachronistic wide whitewalls on this car already make me want to pass on this one. This car appears to be somebody else's idea of what looks "cool." I'd have to spend megabucks just to undo what is wrong on that car.

I saw a really nice light green 1965 Continental in the neighborhood near my workplace about 10 years ago for $4,500. It had a patina, but it wasn't such a wreck I'd be ashamed of it. Trouble is, I don't have the room for such a car and I sure as heck wouldn't want to leave that beauty out on a city street.

Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles