Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

corvette · February 2013

About a year ago, I bought a 2003 BMW 540i M-sport with 85,000 miles. It now has 91,000 miles, and I've done the following repairs and maintenance:
New tires;
Radio LCD display;
Radiator, water pump, fan, thermostat, water tank, and hoses on front of engine;
Headlight adjusters;
Transmission fluid change;
Brake fluid flush;
Differential fluid change;
Valve cover gaskets;
Rear brake rotors;
Front brake pads, rotors, and wear sensors;
Thrust arm bushings;
Power steering hoses;
Vacuum hoses;
Floor mats;
New drive belts and tensioners.

That's all that I can think of. About $6,000, and I did some of the labor myself.

Here are its current service needs:
Intake gasket repair (~$800);
Transmission fluid leak;
Possible VANOS/timing chain cover oil leak;
Possible bent wheel or tire problem (there is a vibration when the car is cold);
Either a power steering whine ($$$) or gear whine from the transmission ($$$$);
Idler arm "a little loose" per mechanic;
It will need spark plugs at 100,000 miles;
Curb rash on three wheels.

I also have a 2009 Altima 2.5S that is my boring daily driver. I love the way the BMW drives and can tolerate its fuel economy (19-20 MPG), but do not love the repair bills and, for some reason :P , I'm not comfortable taking it very far from home. The previous owner smoked a tobacco pipe and the smell is kind of annoying in the summer when the interior gets hot.

Here are a couple of options I'll put on the table:
1. Fix the BMW and keep both cars. Hope nothing major goes wrong.
2. Sell both cars, buy a used 335i. The 335i is newer than the 540i and (theoretically) should have fewer problems. Most of them are in the $30,000 range, and I hesitate to spend that much on a used car with little or no warranty.
3. Sell both cars, buy or lease a new GTI or Jetta GLI. I previously leased an Audi A4 with the 2.0T engine and liked it but haven't driven the GTI or GLI. I would miss the V8, but would have an entertaining car with a warranty for the next 36,000 miles.
4. Sell both cars, buy or lease a 2013 Altima 3.5SL. The last time I checked, the lease rates were pretty attractive on this car. I have driven this car back to back with an Accord, and preferred the Altima because it felt more responsive and the steering had more heft to it.
5. Something else?

A penny for your thoughts.

fintail · February 2013

I think flipping non mainstream cars would be pretty tough - you have to be pretty lucky in the original purchase, and craigslist is pretty competitive - lots of people looking for the old widow selling the forgotten old muscle car for nothing. Also as you have seen, most owners think very highly of their cars, and price accordingly. Might be able to do it easier with daily driver cars where there is more demand. And there is always demand for cheap cars, below a few grand.

You live in a condo building, right? Might want to think about parking space size with something like an old Lincoln too - I know something like that simply wouldn't fit in some of the spaces in my building.

fintail · February 2013

Small detail issues can sometimes lead to larger issues. When they spend money - but do it incorrectly, it can be an alarm. Like when I see older MBs with aftermarket wheels and stereos etc, I am very skeptical about the health of the car.

fintail · February 2013

Wow, that's worse than my E55 since 2006, and part of my work was under warranty.

Personally, I would sell at least the BMW (sounds like one of those cars built on a Friday in late September) and maybe find something else, or sell both and buy one car that will keep you relatively happy. Did you test the 2013 Accord? I had read it drove better, but that could be marketing stuff.

corvette · February 2013

"Did you test the 2013 Accord?"

Yes, back to back with the 2013 Altima. The Accord's steering was awful. It handled well, but automatic transmission was flat-footed and the tires on the sedan are too narrow to put the power from the big V6 down to the ground. I've read that the 2013 Altima's ride is too soft, but I didn't really get to test that on my drive.

Selling the BMW presents its own challenges--list it and disclose all the issues, or go to Carmax and pray to the car gods for a good offer?

fintail · February 2013

Oh, shame about the Accord. I had thought it was supposed to be improved - it looks nicer anyway. I remember when the Accord was easily the best driving midsize box. Then it became a Camry.

For the BMW, I would certainly brag about the work you have done, and maybe leave it at that. A potential buyer should know what to expect with those cars - your problems sound like known issues. They'd hopefully have it inspected before purchase anyway. Try Carmax first of course, they might surprise you.

qbrozen · February 2013

No way on Carmax for the bimmer. As suggested, list all the work and leave it at that. Put it on bimmerfest and bmwcca. Take lots and lots of pics.

I can't suggest selling both and buying an appliance. You'll never be happy. I'd get the 335. Get CPO if you are concerned. If you are willing to spend $30k, you could easily get a low mileage example.

fintail · February 2013

Here's an optimistic project

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

really you're buying a VIN plate to give the project legitimacy--I suspect you could still buy one for less money than the cost to restore, unless this were an alloy bodied car. I think you won't be restoring the car as much as re-creating most of it.

stickguy · February 2013

I read the whole story from the "hunter" that went to Cuba to find it. Pretty interesting.

and considering how much it will be worth if restored, you might actually be able to get from here to thee on this one! though it does have an impressive amount of rust. And just a few "minor" parts missing!

wonder if a European could get that out of the country?

stickguy · February 2013

given the amount of rust, I am not thinking it is an alloy body.

seems a lot harder to recreate around a Vin tag on one of these. Not like a Hemi Cuda or some such, where you can get a clean cheap version of what you need (or pretty close to it) to slap the tag on!

corvette · February 2013

"I can't suggest selling both and buying an appliance. You'll never be happy. I'd get the 335. Get CPO if you are concerned. If you are willing to spend $30k, you could easily get a low mileage example."

Good point. I'd like to get rid of one car before buying the 335. Also, the configuration I would prefer isn't common (Premium, Sport, and Cold Weather; Steptronic, Nav, and would strongly prefer Comfort Access). I'd rather not have a silver, black, or white exterior, and I'd prefer a black interior with aluminum trim. May take a few months to find one of those (or decide to compromise). :P

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

They would re-create the body, probably in Italy or eastern european---just hammer it out by hand. Given a top value of perhaps $750K, there *might* be room to come out on it but it's many years and many man hours and really the car will be somewhat stigmatized.

boomchek · February 2013

Yeah that's what I thought. I bought an 01 MDX for our winter holiday and that barely fits into our parking stall.

In the past I had luck with cheaper under $3k cars that I picked up, drove for a bit and then sold when I got bored. I think I'll leave the classics for the older guys who know what they're doing.

boomchek · February 2013

The reality is that your E39 will be costing you money year after year in repairs. If it isn't one thing, it's something else.

Last year I has an E46 AWD wagon. All wheel drive, fun car, but within the span of 2 months I had to spend $1000 on it and that was at independent shops ran by relatives off friends.

Regardless, selling it was a bit of PITA even though I had it priced at about $3k below what others were asking for them. Evereyone that came to insisted on a mechanical inspection and then picked apart every little minor flaw, from a stuck valve in the muffler (making it a bit louder) to a tiny bit of condensation in the headlight. They all expected a brand new flawless BMW for under $6k. The funny thing is I had 3 inspections on it and some of the shops missed items that others pointed out (got figure), and mentioning some things that did not need to get fixed but that "might" stop working in the future. All came back with a laundry list of things to fix with a grand total that was about half of my asking price.

The car was not perfect but drove fine. The point is that selling an older BMW is a bit of a headache.

Now for the Altima, selling that one won't be easy either as the base model went to many fleets and rental companies and there are a ton of them (actually 2010's and 2011's on the market in the low $10s range, depending on mileage and condition (at least here locally). That means on trade in they paid between $7-9k for it. Because yours is an 09 you might be even offered less than that. (I'm just going by Canadian book and market values).

If I were you though I'd get the 335 as it's a fun car to drive, but make sure it has warranty.

Or check leases on new 320i models because locally they're $398/month with $0 or $1000 down which I think it's a great deal.

fintail · February 2013

That's probably the best area to flip in, cars for a few grand that can be sold fast. The profit might be lower, but time and expense will be much lower. You don't want to accumulate cars. I've made up my mind that two is enough - I already rent a spot for one. Although I am still wanting to add a bike to the family.

Regarding the BMWs, no 320i in the US - lowest here is a 328, which is often offered in sweetheart leases (local dealership had tons of E90s piled up well into spring of 2012, giving them away). Canada gets some more basic models, which I kind of wish existed here, although I think you'd pay the same price for a 320 that a 328 can be had for here. A few weeks ago I saw a W211 E300 with BC plates - model never existed for the US market.

Trading in can sometimes be better too, especially if the car is nice. When I have been a looky-loo at the local MB dealer, a couple salespeople have told me that they'd like to personally buy my E55 when I was tired of it - maybe make it a trade in deal that way and get the tax benefit. Salesman told me there that employees often buy the nice older trade-ins for themselves.

boomchek · February 2013

That's usually the norm at dealerships. especially for older models that dealership will wholesale anyways.

I have a friend that works at the local MB dealer and they don't keep any trade ins other than late model MB's. All off makes go to the auction (or get bought by employees). Sometimes you can come across at cherry low mileage older cars that were well maintained but just won't do well as retail pieces on the lot due to their age.

fintail · February 2013

My E55 is at that point - although it is low mileage and fairly pristine, it is past the magical 10 year old mark now, and values are low. One reason I've had little desire to part ways - the car looks and feels far more expensive than it is, and I couldn't replace it with anything nearly as nice for the money. Sometimes I get the idea of getting a newer car - but can't justify it just yet. Although it is nice to know that someone would want it when I am ready to sell.

michaellno · February 2013

Regarding the BMWs, no 320i in the US -

It's coming .. I configured one on BMW's website and got to $40K without breaking a sweat. Really not that much less expensive than a 328i - except it will have 60 less HP.

fintail · February 2013

I stand corrected - I see it on the site too. I didn't know it was actually coming. I see there's a 4K base price difference, which isn't a fortune for 60hp and probably some better other bits.

Now if we could just get a C diesel.

boomchek · February 2013

It's coming .. I configured one on BMW's website and got to $40K without breaking a sweat. Really not that much less expensive than a 328i - except it will have 60 less HP.

It's only worth it if you want the base base model and don't load it up with anything. Sort of like the base Porsche Cayenne, I remember it being in the low $60k range here a few years ago but you got no sunroof, no bluetooth, tiny wheels, no power seats, pretty much nothing other than the Porsche badge and your power windows, locks, mirrors, and a/c. If you'd add up all the goodies like Nav, sunroof, better stereo, bluetooth, nicer wheels, and such you'd be sitting at about $20-$30k more.

On the other hand I doubt that dealers carry many of the base stripper models as the lease ads are usually ran nationally from BMW Canada.

fintail · February 2013

A few from craigslist:

Not many of these around

Could be good, tiny pics

"rare classic"

Gold

V6 Tempo

"as comfortable as a Caddy"

Quirky

hpmctorque · February 2013

I saw a white 2-door K-car just last week, driven by a young woman. Hadn't seen one like it on well over a year.

I know someone who owns a '88 Aries America. He's the original owner and it's been an extra car for several years now. He's very handy, and does all repairs and maintenance himself. In its ~165,000 miles it's needed a lot of repairs, including a new head gasket. The automatic transmission is original, though.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

31 mpg on an '86 Nissan 6 cylinder? Ahem........

Saab Two-Stroke: I'd love to have that car, but not for that price.

texases · February 2013

Odd wheels on that Mk V. And anyone know what that oil-filter looking thing sticking out the side of the air cleaner on the Mk V does?

fintail · February 2013

I think some of those old econocars put out so little torque, the transmissions would survive with just a little maintenance. The old Tempo in my family made it to 190K when sold - and I have no memory of it even receiving a transmission service, although it must have, maybe.

Regarding the Mk V engine part - some malaisey thing to make a 460 put out under 200hp, no doubt. The wheels, 90s style "custom" stuff.

tjc78 · February 2013

Odd wheels on that Mk V. And anyone know what that oil-filter looking thing sticking out the side of the air cleaner on the Mk V does?

The wheels are horrible and that's not a "gold edition" it just happens to be gold. The oil filter looking device is just and air chamber to prevent drone and make the engine quieter.

The car actually looks decent for the price.

Two door Kcar is certainly a survivor.

bhill2 · February 2013

I had quite a reaction to the interior picture of that Tempo; specifically the automatic seat belts. Geez, those things sucked.

stickguy · February 2013

Maxima had them too.

I got rid of what was one of my favorite cars (a 1991 mazda 626 hatch) when it hit 90K, largely because I hated those belts. Still should have kept it though.

bhill2 · February 2013

Maxima had them too.

So did the Cressida. I had an '88 that I put 150K on because I liked the car. But I hated those automatic belts each and every time I got into it. The ultimate insult was that they never would have worked as well as a 3-point harness if I had gotten into an accident, but I couldn't have the harnesses because the car had this lame system. Needless to say, I never start a car without belting up first, so I needed those automatic jobs like I needed a cold sore transplant.

boomchek · February 2013

$2200 for a 400,000 miled up dented Maxima? I don't think so. He'd be lucky if he finds somebody to give him $1000 for it.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

At 400K a car really isn't worth anything. I mean, would you choose a 106 year old man for a tennis partner?

boomchek · February 2013

Sure if I can win some trophy or money :P

stickguy · February 2013

no woosy FWD here. Actually looks pretty clean for one of these and not all that much money.

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/3599402473.html

tjc78 · February 2013

Put the correct wheels on and it wouldn't look too bad. It seems to me that a lot of these decent driver quality "barge" Lincolns have been showing up. For under 5K you can have something nice, if you are into that kind of thing.

Growing up my Aunt had a similar vintage Cougar in that same color combo. I remember her having it into the 90s.

fintail · February 2013

Mk Vs all need those "turbine" style wheels.

tjc78 · February 2013

Couldn't agree more. Same goes for any 79-91 Box style Panther.

fintail · February 2013

Oh yeah I forgot about that application. Really, a very clean wheel for a big car. Back around when I had my Galaxie, I knew another kid who had a 65, and he had AMC turbine wheels on it, similar to on the General Lee. It had a 70s hot rod kind of look to it.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

Yep those pimpy wires need to go.

Rule of Thumb: If it's not British or Italian, don't put wire wheels or hubcaps on it, ever.

Rule of Thumb II: If you ignore my advice and do it anyway, remember that the smaller the wheel, and the fatter the tire, the worse the wires will look.

andre1969 · February 2013

Rule of Thumb: If it's not British or Italian, don't put wire wheels or hubcaps on it, ever.

I think some domestic cars, on up to the early/mid 50's at least, could get away with true wire wheels. For instance, I think they look pretty good on this 1953 DeSoto Firedome.

However, in this case, it also helps that the center hub is very large, as well as the outer part of the wheel, so the part that's actually spokes is quite small in comparison. Those wide whitewalls help balance it out, too.

Rule of Thumb II: If you ignore my advice and do it anyway, remember that the smaller the wheel, and the fatter the tire, the worse the wires will look.

Also, not all wire hubcaps are created equal. My grandmother's '85 LeSabre had them, and on that car they didn't look too bad. They had a detailed, intricate pattern, and didn't stick out very far, so they didn't seem tacked on. However, the ones on my '79 5th Ave seemed cheaper, and stuck out more, like a cheap aftermarket hubcap you might get at AutoZone or something.

fintail · February 2013

My family's Ciera had wire caps - I didn't like them. Not so much for the style, but because they always seemed to create a rattle that drove me nuts.

I guess they didn't stick out too far though (I wish ours was this nice blue instead of bronze/gold)

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

I think they mess the Desoto up bigtime. The wheels are too small, the tires too fat, and the car is hardly a "sports car", for which wire wheels were pretty much invented (lighter wheel weight). Makes the car look like a chubby bicycle rider wearing spandex. :P

andre1969 · February 2013

Here's an old pic of Grandma's LeSabre:

(Oops, didn't realize it was such a big pic...here's a link instead)

Not sure what year it was taken, but my uncle got that truck in May of 1997 and we got her driveway paved in the summer of 2001, so it was at some point between then. I don't think they look too bad here...I think the fact that it's a larger, more formal car, and the whitewall tires help out some.

If I had kept that car for any length of time, I was planning on trying to snag some of the sport rims that seemed common on the wagons back then. They looked like this.

It seemed like they were really common on the wagons, and somewhat seen on the RWD Electras, but were rare on the LeSabre coupe/sedan...or perhaps not even offered? I have a feeling they're a larger 15x7 wheel, so that might be why. Something like that would come in handy on a wagon, or the heavier Electra, but not be as beneficial to the lighter LeSabre.

fintail · February 2013

I remember those wheels. They'd look great on that sedan, with it's subtle color.

I remember a rally style wheel offered on the Ciera, too.

lemko · February 2013

I had those cool "turbine wheels" on my 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis LS.

stkntraffic · February 2013

When I was in high school (mid-80's), I worked for a pharmacist who owned one of these, except in maroon. He left it out in the Florida sun for years and generally neglected it. At some point while I was working for him he had it fixed up- new paint, new vinyl roof, lots of little things fixed.

When all was said and done it looked brand new. I only got to drive it once on an errand for the pharmacist. To a 16/17 year-old kid I felt like Knight Rider in that thing. As soon as I got a ways away from the pharmacy I decided to find out if the Lincoln could spin its tires. It could.

ab348 · February 2013

The wagons and C-body Electras used a 5x5" bolt pattern for their wheels, while the Lesabre used a 5x4.75" bolt pattern. That's why you didn't see those wheels on LeSabres.

andre1969 · February 2013

The wagons and C-body Electras used a 5x5" bolt pattern for their wheels, while the Lesabre used a 5x4.75" bolt pattern. That's why you didn't see those wheels on LeSabres.

Good thing I didn't pick up a set, then! I would've been a bit miffed! Were the downsized B-body Impala/Caprice, Catalina/Bonneville, Parisienne, and Delta 88 the same way...4.75x5 on the sedans and coupes, 5x5 on the wagons?

I remember back in 1993, one of my co-workers had an early 80's LeSabre, and she wanted me to drive it around because there was something wrong with it. I forget what, exactly, but she thought I could diagnose it. Well, I had to drive to another building on the center, so I took her car. And damn, if it didn't blow a tire when I got over there! She either didn't have a spare, or it was flat, can't remember now, so I let her borrow the spare out of my '82 Cutlass Supreme.

So, because of that, I knew the B-body and the G-body used the same bolt pattern. It didn't dawn on me that the wagons and the C-body would be different.

I always wondered why they made the bolt patterns so close? 4.75 and 5" is close enough for government work, IMO. I wonder, if there's even any advantage to different bolt patterns? Chrysler used to do 4x5 on their compacts and 4.5x5 on their midsized and big cars, although once Darts and Valiants started going to disc brakes, I think they were 4.5x5 as well. I think some bigger Mopars...some Imperials and wagons, perhaps, used a 5x5 pattern?

ab348 · February 2013

GM's full-size cars all used to have a 5x5 pattern - I don't know when they started with that, but it was in the 1960s at least, probably even earlier. The A-body intermediates used a 5x4.75 pattern. When GM downsized the big cars in '77, they moved most of them to the 5x4.75 pattern, which made sense given that a lot of the chassis components were 1973-77 A-body based. But C-bodies kept the 5x5, as did wagons, as did (or so I am told, anyway) some B-bodies with the Olds 403 engine and maybe a few others too. It is all very confusing.

You have it exactly right about the Mopar patterns. Not sure what all the manufacturers were thinking with all these different patterns.

tjc78 · February 2013

It is all very confusing.

So, in other words, typical GM from the 60s-80s. :P

Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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