Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

gsemike · December 2004

8 grand seems to be the absolute ceiling. If you look on ebay motors, you see decent examples for $2,000 and up

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

I'd say $3,500 should buy you anything you want in a Mark V. $8,000 is silly money IMO.

gsemike · December 2004

Since I'm a car guy, I could see this coming in handy as a limited use 4WD vehicle when the weather calls for it. Is this worth it to drop $500 and then do the work just to have as a second or third car? With winter coming on strong, this could be handy.

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/car/53905948.html

Clean truck, very good body and interior, V6 4.3L motor runs ok. 159k. Automatic, 2 door. 4 wheel drive excellent. Motor needs attention - suffers from low oil pressure, needs exhaust pipe after the cat. converter(cat. is new), driver side window doesn't crank up ( but can be moved up & down by hand).

Has roof rack, running boards, fender flares, new Pioneer am/fm tape deck, and heavy duty trailer hitch.

Pictures are available.

seminole_kev · December 2004

At $500 I could see buying it. Run it for however many miles until the motor becomes unusable and get another from a junk yard. Or, if you have the time and the tools. Yank the motor and rebuild it. Doesn't have to be a top notch rebuild, just enough of one to refresh the motor.

For $500, I say it is ok to buy. Now I don't care for these one bit, but for $500, pretty low risk. Worse case, part it out and you could make up the difference.

fintail · December 2004

My dad had a new one of those a few years older than that one. A particularly unpleasant vehicle, and by his statements the worst new car he ever bought.

But a lot of them do survive...for $500, if everything else is OK...you could do worse. It would make a good winter beater in the snowbelt.

seminole_kev · December 2004

one of my friends in high school had one with that piece of junk 2.8L V6. That motor was such a pile. Sounded like crap and was way over worked by all that mass.

fintail · December 2004

I think that's what ours had. It developed a massive exhaust manifold leak when it had like 20K on it. I still remember the noise it made. It was also painfully slow, my dad would go on about how he wanted his Plymouth Horizon back! It also got rusty within 5 years (in a non snowbelt area), and it was brown on tan. I have some prejudice against it still.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

It sort of depends what "low oil pressure" means. If it means that the engine is already knocking, then basically you have bought a $500 planter box. If it's just the needle that says pressure is low, or the red oil light is on but the motor is quiet, you could check it out further prior to purchase---either with a mechanical oil pressure gauge or just swapping in a new oil pressure sending unit.

But if the engine was bad I wouldn't buy it. It's a lot of work and there's no real upside--these trucks aren't worth very much clean and running anyway.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but do the words in this ad and the photos belong to different cars?

http://www.craigslist.org/eby/car/53889522.html

jsylvester · December 2004

Mid 70's boats are still a dime a dozen, and for $2,000, I'd look around for one in better shape.

Better yet, here is a real head-turner with no reserve! The project with this one is keeping your lunch down after seeing it drive down the street.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&cate- gory=6305&item=4513274504&rd=1

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

I guess you could interpret "head-turner" two ways, huh?

andre1969 · December 2004

Grbeck and I, and two more of my friends went to the DC auto show. One of my buddies has a '78 Mark V Diamond Jubilee, and he drove us down in it. On the way back, I took us down the street where that smashed Mark V is. We actually stopped behind it and got a good look at it. Turns out that the body damage on it is starting to rust where the paint was exposed, so it's not like this just happened a few days ago. And the trunk appears to be tied shut. So it looks like this beast is still being used, at least on an occasional basis. And probably will be, until the day a cop ends up spotting it and writing up a warning for the shattered left taillight. At that point I'm sure it'll get totaled, unless they can do something with a bulb and some red tape! ;-)

I know this probably sounds strange, but it calms my mind a bit, knowing that this car has been given a life extension, at least for the time being.

andys120 · January 2005

Take '61 E-type and

1)Add Ford motor

2)Put dopey hood scoop and non-stock t/ls on.

3)Remove bumpers

4)Ask outrageous money

http://www.hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/dealers.detail/hmn_v- - - ehicle_id/212648

Given the money commanded by the real ones in stock condition it possible that it might pay to convert this car back to stock.

andre1969 · January 2005

that's the same place that one of my co-workers bought his '66 Charger from a few years back. A '66 Charger that was advertised as fully restored and "turn key". Turns out that, in addition to needing a new engine, it needed at least $3000 in other work as well. The floorboards were rusted through and had metal riveted in, but still had gaps in it. Luckily, he caused enough of a fuss that they took the car back and refunded his money.

Unfortunately, he also bought a '73 or '74 Benz 450SL from them, at the same time. The Benz arrived first, as I recall. It actually didn't act up on him too much, but I remember looking at it once, and seeing that the 6-digit odometer read something like 182,XXX. "PLEASE tell me that's metric!" was all I could mutter. Nope, it was miles, not kilos :-(

He held onto that one for a few years, and I think sold it for about half of what he paid for it. The tranny must've missed him though, because soon after that it got depressed and committed suicide!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2005

The dummy screwed up a Series I coupe! If it was a series II 2+2 automatic, no problem, nobody wants those anyway, as most Jaguar afficienados regard them as ugly, but a Series I, oh, man, too bad.

seminole_kev · January 2005

why? Why do that to that car?

jsylvester · January 2005

Money and taste doesn't always go hand in hand.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2005

Really, go bastardize an XJ6 if you must, but not a Series 1 coupe (groan!)

gsemike · January 2005

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&cate- gory=6256&item=4516595285&rd=1

No bids on this almost done Honda yet. The bidding is starting at $700. This kid would be taking a bath if it went for that. Maybe let's call it $15oo or $2ooo.

There's so much that a picture won't tell you but if you read enough, there is a decent list of work to be done (all of them easy fixes of course).

I wouldn't trust this car to buy online. It could be completely butchered and beat on. If it looked good in person, it could be a go since I like the interior.

andys120 · January 2005

Butchered! I wouldn't touch it. It sounds from his descriptive like you'd end up trying to build a car around the custom vinyl interior which isn't bad but come'on it's still a Civic.

andre1969 · January 2005

at least it matches the color of his car canopy! Hey, I wonder if that type of canopy, with sides, would stand a better chance of staying out of the tree tops than mine would! ;-)

ghulet · January 2005

....I don't know that I could trust anyone who spells as badly as this kid does (strangely, he can spell 'accessories' but not 'vinyl', 'wipe' or 'unfortunately').

gsemike · January 2005

I noticed that and thought that it was pretty funny. He also spells Jersey "Jerzey". I guess that's Jersey with attitude.

All of a sudden, this car is up to $3 grand and has 15 bids. I think that there is some pumping going on. The leading bidders has zero feedbacks, so it's probably one of his buddies. Considering this guy's negative feedbacks that he didn't even bother responding to, I say no way for 3 large.

Only thing is... do you guys ever give anything a thumbs up?

andre1969 · January 2005

but for $500, I'd give the thumbs up on that old Blazer with the 4.3! The Chevy smallblock is a fairly sturdy, durable motor, and cheap too. So even if the one that's in the Blazer is shot, it shouldn't be too hard to find a decent used one from the junkyard and throw it in.

I think it's hard to find a project car in general to really give a thumbs up on, though, because in most cases, it's going to be cheaper to just go find one that's in pristine/restored condition in the first place, than to take a project and restore it to that condition.

seminole_kev · January 2005

yeah, I also was alright with that blazer for 500 clams. I think there was another one earlier that I thought was ok, but I'm too lazy to scroll on up to hunt for it!

turboshadow · January 2005

Call me a heretic, but I liked it, except for that godawful hood scoop. THAT would have to go...

While I like it, I wouldn't buy it.

Turboshadow

andys120 · January 2005

http://www.hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/classifieds.cardetai- l/id/2172099

It's not exactly a project car but it could be modified in about a hundred interesting ways if you were so inclined. Replica Muscle Cars are becoming increasingly popular as the prices of real ones soar into six-figure land.

IIRC, a decent real GT-350 from the first Gen will set you back $50 or $60k.

gsemike · January 2005

What you have to do is write down a list of everything that the car will need and how much it will cost, and then double the dollar amount to figure out what you're getting in to with a project car. I agree that it is difficult to find a project car that can be completed in a reasonable amount of time for a reasonable dollar amount.

If you don't have the money to buy one that's done, you're not likely to have the money to do a project right either. That's why you see so many half baked half done cars here. It's like, "I appreciate that you've invested $10,ooo into a primered rolling shell of a 97 Civic, but it's going to take another $10 grand to finish it, so it's worth $2,5oo now."

Anyone that thinks that they're going to do it and make money off it is poorly mistaken. That game should be left to the Boyd Coddington's of the world.

stickguy · January 2005

IMO, the key question is, do you want a car, or do you want to build a car?

If you just want an XYz mobile to enjoy, buy the nicest complete one you can find. On the other hand, if the work turns you on (or you want to create something unique), you could be happier with some of these odd ball project cars.

stickguy · January 2005

big question, do you want a car to use (if so, buy the best complete one you can find), or do you want the fun of building one? If the later, soem of these odd ball cars could be fun, especially if yo uwant something unique.

I like the Mustang. I almost bought something similar about 15 years ago, but not as nice (and much cheaper).

Find a clean body shell (yeah, right), and build your own! Every part can be in your garage tomorrow via Fed-Ex, although the chassis and body might take 2-3 days.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2005

I can see building up a WORTHY car, and even "losing" money on it vis a vis it's actual market value when it's done, but fixing up a car that had a bad reputation to begin with, or that is basically held in contempt (hence the give-away prices when they are busted), strikes me personally as a bit masochistic in behavior.

As for the FrankenJaguar Series I Coupe, there is simply no excuse for butchering a work of art. Money or an ego that is miswired does not automatically entitle you to become a barbarian. "It's my Mona Lisa, and I'll do whatever I want with it".

andys120 · January 2005

Here's one for you, Shifty....

http://hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/classifieds.cardetail/id- - /2171314

It certainly looks like a low price for a low-mileage 928 in nice condition, whaddya think?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2005

Seems a tad pricey. It's an S4 which is both good and bad. Good in that they go REAL fast, bad in that the S$ engine is an interference-fit (while mine is not). Automatic is good for a 928, as the clutch is a bear, but I have a 5-speed anyway because it's way more fun. (They use a dual-disk clutch system and it doesn't release very easily).

928 prices are historically very low but I think this is going to change quickly, now that people realize you can buy a Porsche in great condition, with a V-8, that goes 150 mph, has a huge hatchback, every luxury option, and costs around $6,000 at most (for early 80s models).

People are 'ascared of the maintenance costs, but really you try to fix any old German car these days, be it VW, Audi, Benz or whatever, and you are going to get hosed, so you might as well have fun at it.

Figure $150 a month for everything (excluding gas and insurance) to keep one on the road--presuming you bought a good one in the first place.

I priced a new little Mitsubishi Outlander the other day (just for fun) and it's $399 a month, so there you go. I'm still ahead of the game in a 928.

andys120 · January 2005

with the linkage to the rear-mounted transaxle?

Of course all Porsches have a rear-mounted transaxle but most don't have V8 torque to transmit.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2005

It's clunky on the early cars but gets better with the newly designed clutch around 1987 I think.

The drivetrainset up on the 928 as well as the suspension is very VERY similar to the new Corvette and it does make you wonder if GM bought some 928s and tore them apart.

Torque tube bushings/bearing can take a beating on a 928, that is true. With the twin-clutch disk, when you romp on it, it doesn't much slip (racing cars often use this system), so there's a lot of stress.

I rather like the tamer early 928s for this reason but I can get a blower for it for only $4,900, which would punch out probably 350 HP. Given the great brakes and suspension and good motor, the only real concern would be that torque tube stress and somewhat weak 2nd gear synchros.

Best way to drive a stickshift 928---a manly grip on the gearshift and put 'er in easy.

gsemike · January 2005

Help me out. What's interference-fit mean?

Every since Risky Business, I've wanted one of these. Even though Joel had a tough time giving Joey Pants the slip in his 76 Caddy, that car looked good. "There is no substitute".

andys120 · January 2005

"What's interference-fit mean?

IIRC

1)Timing belt breaks

2)Valves hit pistons

3)Engine goes Boom

4)Owner goes oh $#@+**!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2005

Yeah, basically 32 very bent, very expensive sodium filled German valves gouging out the tops of 8 very expensive German pistons bringing 4 very expensive German camshafts to a grinding halt.

I hate when that happens.

The serpentine belt on the 928 engine is something like 7 feet long (maybe 5, some ridiculous length) and is difficult to adjust. They even have a slack timing belt warning light on the dash.

Fortunately, the early 4.5 liter V8s like mine cannot bash the valves if the belt breaks, nor do I have twin cams or 4-valve heads, so that's good. But then I don't have the power of the later 928s either, which are seriously fast cars even today. To give you an idea, they accelerate rapidly with a stock 2.73 axle ratio.

gsemike · January 2005

OK... I got it. I had a similar experience when the belt went on my 89 Accord. Fortunately, I was idling in trafic when it went, but the shop that pulled it off the road for me still tried to stick me for a new head. This was diagnosed without the benefit of even removing the valve cover. He offered some explanation about doing a complression check to know that the head was bad.

Since their explanation didn't hold water, I told them not to touch it and had my regular shop pick it up. I was back on the road with a new belt and that's it.

This is why I hate timing belts. When I bought my last car, getting one with a chain was high on my list. Found that in my 03 Altima even though most new car salesmen look at you like you have two heads when you ask about that.

So if I want the Porsche but want the simpler one, what years am I looking for?

andre1969 · January 2005

by the phrase "Interference-fit", which I've never heard before. I've heard of "Interference engine" plenty of times. When I heard "Interference fit", I was thinking that may have had something to do with how hard it might be to get the engine out of and back into the car when something does blow up on it!

seminole_kev · January 2005

normally refered to "interference design" or something along those lines. I too thought it was refering to how it actually would be removed/installed from the engine bay......some sort of strange, Porsche only thing. See Andre, you're not the only weird one!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2005

You don't ever want a Porsche 928 "project car". Just forget that concept entirely as being unworkable.

Best early 928s would be 1980-82...cheap and cheerful....or buy the very last ones from ...was it...1995 or so?.....

andys120 · January 2005

http://hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/dealers.detail/hmn_vehic- - - le_id/215877

It looks like rust got the better of this car. I don't know if I'd take the chance but if it could be fixed properly it'd be a top-notch and potentially valuable collectible. Anybody think it'd be worth saving?

andre1969 · January 2005

how much hp would a 327 have by that time? I think earlier in the 60's, they had a 250 hp 327 and a 300 hp 327, but by '69 I don't konw. I knew a guy back in high school who had a '69 Camaro SS/RS pacecar convertible, and it had a 350. When I was a kid, my Mom had a '68 Impala 4-door hardtop with a 327.

I'd imagine this Camaro might be worth a bit because of being an SS, but I'd think the 327 and especially the Powerglide would hurt it. That, and just being a hardtop, versus a convertible.

Cool car, and I know I'm out of touch here with prices, but I wouldn't pay more than maybe $2-3K for it in its current condition. And the part about needing new frame rails bothers me. Now I know a Camaro is unitized, but I'm not sure how GM's unit bodies were designed back then. On Mopars, they actually have a complete sub-frame bback there. The body will usually rust before it does, but once it starts, well that's basically like having the frame rust out on a B-O-F car. And I do know that the '67-69 Camaros, Firebirds, and I believe the '68-74 Novas (maybe the later Camaros and '75-79 X-cars, too?) were designed in a way that the front part of the car is actually isolated from the rest at the firewall. If it gets rusty enough, they can actually break apart at that point!

Now the car would have to be a complete rustbucket at that point probably should have been retired years before, but depending on how bad the car gets underneath, it is something to consider. Especially since cars can be cleaned up and have a coat of paint slapped on to look nice at a quick glance, but being ready to fall apart from the inside out!

stickguy · January 2005

I hate to see a good Camaro go to pot, but I agree that this one is overpriced. Also a bad car to buy at night under the lights, after a quick spray shine!

Might be harder to fix the amature work than rust.

I think you basically have something that you either buy cheap and use up, or bite the bullet and take it apart and do it right. At least the body seems somewhat straight, but the color is iffy.

Also, is it really an SS? the dash looked kinda strippo for that. If it's legit, must be the cheapo SS package (badges and the minor stuff). The powerglide is also a loser.

If the frame was solid (or easily fisable), swap in a crate 350 and 4 speed, upgrade the interior, and you might have something nice.

andys120 · January 2005

"Also, is it really an SS? the dash looked kinda strippo for that. If it's legit, must be the cheapo SS package (badges and the minor stuff).

Cheap looking interiors were par for the course in the early F-Cars. It'd be easy enough to check the VIN code and find out if it's a real SS.

I dunno the HP rating of a '69 327 but those are real nice motors. It was the first mass-produced motor to have one HP per CID in it's Fuel-injected 1862 version.

The PG would certainly detract from the value but the dirty little secret of the Muscle/Pony car era is that the majority had ATs especially by '69.

gsemike · January 2005

I'm not an expert, but didn't all SSs have cowl hoods? It sounds like an amatuer got his hands on this and tried to do it the wrong way, hence the nice paint and rusted frame and trunk.

Maybe if you had a good parts car, you could turn two into one but for $11,900 no way. If it's not a factory SS, the ceiling on the value is not that high. We don't even know if the bodywork is good under that paint. He doesn't mention new metal, so who knows what's down there.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2005

No way. Junkyard. I agree, looks fake, wrong engine/trans combo, too much damage, not worth restoring. You can buy these in nice shape all day long with 327/autos. It's the clean 4-speeds with real options that everyone wants.

Mark shifty's words, once the muscle car craze contracts (as it soon will) the cars that will REALLY take the beating are the clones and the wannabees. The "real" cars with the "best" options will do okay but those poor folks who poured money into second-tier muscle cars with no real sex appeal are going to be sorry.

andre1969 · January 2005

would a '69 Camaro with a 350 have in it? Would that still be the 2-speed Powerglide? Or would they have put a THM350 or THM400 behind that one?

I actually wouldn't care about the car being automatic if it had a 3-speed auto, but those 2-speed automatics are really annoying, unless you have a really huge engine that doesn't care how many or few gears it has!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2005

Best thing I would advise on Camaros of that era is to buy a 6 cylinder car with no rust, gut it, take off the front clip, paint it with a good street paint job, do the suspension, upgrade the brakes, install a crate engine and a good auto or 4 speed, then put the front clip back on when you've done all your fitting. Then you have a nice clone that you can drive and have fun with. Also you "know what you got" and if you're careful you aren't in a lot of money here.

Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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