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Nissan Frontier Crew Cab vs Ford Explorer Sport Trac - II
This topic is a continuation of Topic 1033....
Nissan Frontier Crew Cab vs Ford Explorer Sport
Trac. Please continue these discussions here.
Thanks!
Front Porch Philosopher
SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host
Nissan Frontier Crew Cab vs Ford Explorer Sport
Trac. Please continue these discussions here.
Thanks!
Front Porch Philosopher
SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host
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retire when you want,but,that still does not
address the original premise.Your decision to pay
cash for your truck means you lost that capital
asset.You are no longer making anything from it.You
also lost an offset on your taxes.Again,I question
the wisdom of your paying cash,which I did earlier
and you came up with your story insted of
addressing the question.
All the other stuff about fads,JD
Powers,etc,means........?Not relevant,nor is it
worth discussion over again.
I agree with you that they are both doing the same percentage-wise. But, I would rather be the guy that was making 69% of $10,000
Sure the Nissan doesn't have all the best of the best features, but when you avg. out all the pros / cons ( especially price )The Nissan appears to be the "little truck that could !!)
yes that is clear to me, I see what you are saying now,
Dennis;
yes the new competition has provided more oportunity fot the CC's to be discounted, and with a decent discount, and the sport tracs going for MSRP+ it seems most buyers don't see enough of a benefit to spend the extra $$.
As to the last paragraph of post 496 I do not choose either. I said in my orignal post
"There are always exceptions but the norm is
Quality = Sales".
And I gave 2 examples, American Express and Federal Express. Why do more people use Federal Express and not, lets say, Airborn Express? Airborn is cheaper, why not use them?
"Can you explain why Nissan truck sales were up 56% while ford truck sales were up only 3%?"
Try and show your stock example without using any base line. You can't its not possible. Now do you understand why I say % figures are not useable numbers without a baseline?
Even your comment;
"The person who invested $100 did equally as well as the person who invested $10,000!"
is inaccurate because you do not specify a base line. I know what your point is, but if I change your base line from which person had the better choice of stocks to which person had the greater increase in cash it changes the results without changing your numbers.
Amercan Express has a $50 yearly fee. Almost anyone can get a VISA/MC for no fees and use it like an Amex by paying it off at the end of every month and avoiding all finance charges. Yet millions of people have Amex cards.
IMHO, Its the quality of their customer service and how they treat their customers. They do not have anything to sell but themselfs.
I think we have both made our points on the percentages figures, and I guess you know better than all of the professional automotive journalists out there that quote percentages.
Let's get back to the automotive field to look at your theory that quality=sales, BTW, I would appreciate it if you would use IMHO before those statements like you expect everyone else to, how does the situation with the Mazda Bseries fit in with your theory? JD power gave the highest IQ award to the mazda this year, so the quality is there, but sales are at the bottom, especially compared to the ranger, even thought they are the same truck, and the mazda has a better warranty and there is no difference in performance etc.
Also if you think of quality, Toyota definitely has the reputation for practically bullet proof debendability and quality, but tacoma sales are relatively low too when compared to the domestics,
so how does this fit in with your theory? The only logical explanation is that there are other factors than quality that equal higher sales, unless you have another explanation?
As for the Amex & Federal Express example...Millons of people have Amex? Links please? (Joke). How does that compare to Visa and Master card? Do they only have millions or maybe tens of millions? If your theory was to hold true, Amex would be the dominate card, regardless of cost. Same goes for Fed Ex? Do they ship more parcels than UPS? Do you know this for certain? If not, then again your theory doesn't hold water. I think many people have posted enough examples where quality <</A>> sales to say that this probably isn't the norm, IMHO. I think that Hyundai and Microsoft are two glaring examples; although Vince probably takes exception to the Microsoft example because he is a big shareholder...
That kind of puts a little dent in the quality=sales debate.The long term quality of Nissan rates higher then Ford so that should mean that their sales should be higher.That of course is not the case.
The Contour.... Nice car but.... I will admit after the 7th safety recall my wife and I didn't have warm fuzzy feelings the car would make it to even 80K. The car handled wonderfully and still felt solid, but we dumped it, :-(... I still believe this car is one of the best values out there. Luckly we are financially set to have been able to get rid of the car and get another... I know I am never going to hear the end of this one.. Even though the Contour had 7 safety recalls, it NEVER, EVER left us stranded.. or broken down.. after 32K miles... Test drove the Nissan Altima (JOKE!), Saturn LS1, Accord, Camry, Mazda 626, My wife chose the Accord this time...
Let me see if I get what your saying here. I've been reading what you guys have been posting here on this subject the last few posts. If you take your 'Quality=Sales' and break it down for what it is saying then you get quality equals sales. If you make quality it will equal(more) sales. I don't see you saying that sales figures equal quality. This is what Vince8 is saying, the high number of sales shows quality. If my interpretation of your post is correct, then I agree with you. Your saying, If you make a quality product it will only help your sales numbers. But the theory(which by the way is based on an educated guess'hypothesis', something Vince8 knows nothing about)that sales numbers equal quality, in my education is wrong and way too broad. I mean if you look at sales numbers you must take in economics both macro and micro especially when it involves automobile manufactures. I bet if you were to talk to Ford's marketing dept. or design dept. they probably wished it was as easy as sales=quality.
Another thought on the sales numbers. My experience with businesses and gov't agencies is that they really don't rank quality near as high as they do price. They don't have to. The businesses depreciate the vehicle as soon as they can and the gov't operates off of a tight budget and usually have fleet mechanics. So even if we were to say well, the businesses and gov't buy the rangers or Fords because of their reliability I don't think that it's true, as referenced by the above sentence. I think that quality is important to those of us who are buying the vehicle with our own money and will be owning the vehicle for some time. We worry about quality because more than likely we will still be the owner after the warranty. Don't get me wrong, commercial vehicles need to be reliable but don't forget if the company is large or is a gov't agency they usually have somebody manage the fleet. Whether it's their own guys or a dealership somebody is doing regular maintenance on them. This is why I don't think that the commercial part of the ranger's or Ford's sales should count. Besides they own their own rental car company and I bet those sales are included in there.
I can't say anything about you Ranger, except congrats on its record, its a little surprising but it is a truck which Ford excels at. Nobody I know, absolutely nobody owns/owned a Ranger except for my friend's co-worker's husband 12 years ago owned a older Ranger! The vast majority of people I know buy the F150. And that is a good vehicle.
By the way I have a sad face
I think we have both made our points on the percentages figures.
Sorry I do not get your point at all. You can't use % figures without a common base line. Since Ford and Nissan do not sell anywhere near the same # of units per year you do not have a common base line.
cncman you also said;
The only logical explanation is that there are other factors than quality that equal higher sales, unless you have another explanation?
Of course there is! and there are exceptions to everything. What I said was (and using your words) it is the norm. To me the norm means most of the time. Is that your definition of norm?
I don't see you saying that sales figures equal quality.
Nope I never used those words. Quality = Sales not Sales = Quality. The difference is slight but I would never argue Sales = Quality. I did express that Repeat sales = Quality.
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Ok now that cncman and kenac have jumped to a conclusion, before you post, IMHO Repeat sales = Quality is the NORM. Sure you can tell me about the little old lady who had a lemon and brought another but that is NOT the norm.
Mahimai you also said,
My experience with businesses and gov't agencies is that they really don't rank quality near as high as they do price.
But now I'm confused about your point because the Nissan's are less $$ than the Fords but I still see Ford fleet vehicles the most. Since the Nissan is cheaper why are they not buying Nissan or Toyota, etc..
The front of my CC no longer has a "happy face" it now has a "lopsided frown"!!
Well you are lucky in one respect. You are now over the anguish of your first scratch/ding, while the rest of us suffer painfully watching and waiting for our first ding.
You should thank your wife.
you obviously have no idea what you are talking about, it is precisely because there is a difference in sales figures that you HAVE to use percentages, what we are basically talking about here is performance and performance can only be gauged relative to what others are doing by comparing % if there is a disparity in the numbers. It is a simple fact. In your eyes a company that usually sells 10,000 units goes up 3,000 units and they did just as well as the company that usually sells 100,000 units that went up 3,000 units, that is ridiculous, the 10,000 unit company obviously had a better performance, and a higher PERCENTAGE performance gain. Pick up an automotive news sometime and look at how they talk about sales increases, they don't say Ford sales were up 5,000 units this month, they say it was up X%.
Yes I agree that is what the norm is, but you haven't given ONE automotive example to illustrate your point, if it is the norm, why can't you think of a simple example? I have given you two examples, the toyota and Mazda examples, that is two more than you have, so far it would appear that this is the "norm"
As far as my statement about businesses I was talking about large businesses and this purely speculation on my part. I know that businesses are more likely to buy foreign than gov't agencies. I still don't think that they should be counted as part of sales figures along with the gov't sales. You said it yourself you need a baseline, in the case of the sales figures it needs to be a market that the competing manufactures sell to.
In your eyes a company that usually sells 10,000 units goes up 3,000 units and they did just as well as the company that usually sells 100,000 units that went up 3,000 units, that is ridiculous, the 10,000 unit company obviously
had a better performance, and a higher PERCENTAGE
performance gain.
NOPE, I Never said that, Nowhere Nohow did I say that. Re-Read my posts you are completely wrong about what I said. I have no clue where you interpreted that from.
To Review;
You (or someone) said that Nissan did much better than Ford because Nissan sales were up 63.x% and Ford sales were up 3%.
I said (and I have no clue why you don't get it)
You cannot compare % numbers without a baseline. Suppose 63% is a 10000 unit increase for Nissan and %3 is a 50000 unit increase for Ford? So who did better???????????????
Cars, Planes, Trains, Widgets, Paper plates. It dosen't matter what it is. You can't use % figures without a baseline for "COMPARISONS".
Your confusing Stock performance % with a Industry Compairson. With stock you compare the +- to the companies own previous perfomance (Base Line)
You are attempting to use % to compare 2 companies with 2 different base lines and saying that the % figures "ALONE" say how one company did against another. Its not valid now and never will be.
I hope that explains my point to you. But if you still do not understand I think we should move on.
weren't allowed to buy foreign vehicles because they get subsidies from the Federal Government it has something to do with their contract together.
Yea that make sense. I could see the Government forcing its own agencys to buy from companies it give loans and grants to. It actually makes good government sense to. I wonder if that carries down to the state and local level too? I guess it must because the State and local gov get their grants from the feds.
If the above is true, than in reality Price in this particular environment should be the opposite of the previous posts (ie. not be a big factor). Because if the agency wants its grant money they have to pick an approved vendor. Humm major food for thought.
Here is my observation, In the Inland Empire of So. Cal., there are 4 to 1 more Nissan CC Vs. Sport Tracks and Dakota Quad Cabs. Sure the Nissan has been available 10 months longer, but for the large part the Nissans I'm seeing have dealer plates on them (= new purchases)
I can't comment on the Dakota's but Ford is only Making ??50,000?? ST's this year and they have only been in production since Feb. Jump over to the ST topic and you'll see that most of the people who have order'd an ST are JUST getting them or still waiting. Production was also limited until late May. And until recently dealers were having trouble keeping a demo long enough for test drives. :-)
The Buy American Act --
(1) Restricts the purchase of supplies, that are not domestic end products, for use within the United States. A foreign end product may be purchased if the contracting officer determines that the price of the lowest domestic offer is unreasonable or if another exception applies (see Subpart 25.1);
why should anyone answer your questions, you've been avoiding over a dozen issues for the last 6 months, until you catch up noone owes you a thing,
BTW how's your evil double doing? He seems to have your # in the tacoma room, LOL!
2WD?
All you Nissan guys are just pissed off because I gave you links and data showing the Frontier inferior to a Ford product, GASP! a Ford product?
The S/T in the Truck Trend shows the Ford product has a better quality fit/finish, interior, power, comfort, crashtest... should I go on???
Gooba, you and cncman have become like twin parakeets, do you ever do any thinking on your own?
Big Bad Ford Ranger Stuck til summer
Summer Here, Xterra pulling Ford Ranger Out
Those are some genuine Ranger 4x4 action pictures, sure makes me want a ranger. (and maybe it's not the 4x4 ranger but still looks cool)
Hey, but I'm sure this never happens to anything Vince owns.
Your last comment about not thinking on my own?I think I have shown that.You on the other hand have failed to show that you are able to think on your own except for a couple of times.As I said you must make your family proud with you intellect.You are what is classified as a 2 bagger,and I hope you are considerate enough of your family and "friends" to insure that they are well supplied.
Hey fordsporttrac(not trying to be a smartass) but, don't you agree that if Vince8 would use the IMHO in front of HIS statements it would cut down on some of the defensive statements that myself and others have posted?
Unfortunately, I have found that personally insulting him actually gets him to respond quicker. But, it's usually not in response to my previous answer or my redirection of a statement of his rather, it's back to something that we all already covered. It's becoming down right annoying.
When I come to the topic or any of the topics I'm invoved in I read all of the posts that were posted since I was last on, doesn't everybody do this? I don't read the two or three that it brings up when you first come to the topic but all of the previous posts. This way I can see where everybody is at.
Have you had a chance to tow your boat yet? Gone fishing yet? I was curious what do you fish for? Stripers? maybe Tuna? I know since your in NJ I figured you might try for some tuna if the warm eddies come close enough. If you do it's almost that time of year huh?
Oh I was going to ask you if you checked out that new topic (#2018) it's about towing in overdrive. Not trying to open the debate up again, just some interresting technical information.
I'm also curious what some of the rest of you guys do with your trucks outside back and forth to work. What the rest of you guys do when you play. I know some of you live in the southwest, I wish I had some of the offroad 'parks' or designated areas you guys have? I wanted to ask you guys(those that live in the SW) how the frontier does as a rock climber. Just driving mine it feels like it would be pretty damn good, although I know it's no CJ-7
I get 3 blocks from my house and at a VERY sharp curve (10 MPH) in the road on a residential street. (25 MPH) Two bozos had a head on and all traffic comes to a halt. Every body in front of me turns around so I become the first vehicle in line in front of the accident. Police, Ambulances and Tow Trucks are already there.
So I'm talking on the cell phone and I look across the accident and what do I see first in line on the other side. A Nissan CC. :-)
Once every thing settles down and the tow trucks are hooking up I suddenly become aware I'm surrounded by police. :-0 (just kidding) So which Truck do you think the police wanted to know all about. I can tell you it wasn't the CC.
Nope don't use my little dingy for fishing. I have a friend with a 42' that we take out to the canyons 30 miles out for Tuna.
I'd never leave site of the shore line with my single engine. :-) And nope not towing yet. I don't even have my hitch yet. Too much going on right now but I hope to get boat and PWC's out of moth balls soon
I'll check out #2013 Today
I posted factual data, 0-60, skidpad, interior room, ect.. from a Truck Trend article showing the S/T is the winner when comparing the S/T and the CC. I also squashed your arguement of the "CC has a truck frame therefore is the better 4x4" The article loaded both trucks down, took both off road and still the S/T performed just fine if not better than the CC.
For the record, I don't see many Nissan people actually saying the CC is a better vehicle than the ST. I do see a lot of Nissan people saying they think Ford has some quality issues. I do see them saying that the ST is a good vehicle BUT it is much more expensive than the CC. What we are saying is that we don't feel that when you take price into account, any perceived/true/false advantages are not enough to justify the extra cost. Also, the ST has only been out for a short time, and as it is substantialy different than the Explorer, you can't judge its reliability yet; especially since they have already shown 3 defects and they have only been out a short time. For the people who have purchased the ST - I hope these are the only 3 defects - the same way I hope my CC doesn't have any more than 2 or 3 defects.
In short, I purchased my CC (and not the ST) for these reason;
- I like the sleek, smooth styling (more so with the cap on); the ST hasn't grown on me yet
- The price; after tax; was approx. $9800can cheaper!
- I have had very good experiences with past Nissan products
- Friends/family/others I know have had problems with Ford products (except the F150)which scared me because the ST was new.
- The Nissan is more a truck and that is what I was looking for. I hunt and go in tuff places.
Now as to which handles better/rides better/tows more/etcc.. I DON'T KNOW. In these matters I only trust to my own opinion. And as a Dodge owner mentioned earlier, with out giving each vehicle an extensive ride, right after each other, I can't tell from my limited drive of the ST. Even then, it doesn't matter because I find the CC rides excellent, it handles extremely well and is very nubile in tight places (except when wives try to negotiate rocks in parking lots). It handles washboard roads better than the F150 (that is not to say better than the ST), and it tows the weight I need it to tow to my satisfaction. How the ST does all this, I don't know.
As to all your "fact" posts; those are mainly peoples opinions, which are nice to hear, but they mostly don't take into account price.
Sorry for the long posts guys, I just thought it was about time to clear up the misconception that Nissan owners are just trying to bash Fords; were not; we are just happy with our products.
keanec,well said,although I believe that you wasted your time if you wanted to make a point with vince.Most of that alot of us knew,but thanks for the reminder.
since BIC pens outsell Cross pens, that must mean the BIC pens are better, right? (price excluded in analogy).
There are 4477 Ford Dealers in the USA and 1100 Nissan Dealers in the USA. I would expect Ford to sell a lot more than Nissan, but hey that's just me. (info from Carpoint.com)
If only we could put Vince's logic in a book, I could laugh for years.
Hey Vince, if you do decide to read & respond to this post, did you get a chance to look at the pics of the Ranger in action in the links above? I guess Vince has no comment...gee I wonder why?
The Nissan CC is to Quad Cab Mini Trucks as Lima Beans are to food.
Inexpensive (without butter or something to spice them up), generally reliable but not very exciting. Yes, I've driven a CC.....