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Any downside to buying a hybrid?
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Comments
The Echo was based on the first Generation Prius (or maybe they shared designs while being developed). The Gen 2 Prius is an all - new design, and I've not read anything that indicates it is an Echo derivative.
We bought our Prius because the old car required repairs that exceeded the value of the car and we wanted a fuel efficient car that had stability control, curtain airbags, and a nav system"
Your equation involved an older car needing repairs, far different from a GS in good repair. To buy a new Prius costs over 21K dollars; that is money that must be spent, which would not be spent in keeping the older car, regardless of if the Prius was paid in cash or financed. It takes a really long time to make up 21K difference by saving on gas.
If the purchaser needs to buy a new car anyway, then the comparisons and cost differences are closer.
2006 Prius option codes, package contents and exterior/interior color combinations. Please note that each of the twelve Toyota regions are able to order any, all or none of the packages.
FE- 50 State Emissions, Included w/All Packages
GY #1- Driver and Passenger Side and Curtain Airbags (your basic TRAC car)
HE #2- Rear Camera, AM/FM CD 6 Speakers & MP3, Smart Key System
HF #3- RC, AM/FM etc., SKS, All the airbags
HG #4- Vehicle Stability Control, RC, AM/FM etc., SKS, All the airbags
HI #5- VSC, RC, JBL AM/FM, CD Changer, 9 Speakers, Bluetooth & MP3, SKS, Security Alarm & Homelink, All the airbags
HK #6- VSC, HID's, RC, JBL etc., SKS, Alarm & HL, All the airbags, Front Fog & Driving Lamps
NL #7- VSC, HID's, RC, JBL etc., SKS, Alarm & HL, All the airbags, Navi, Fog & Driving Lamps
NW #8- VSC, HID's, RC, JBL etc., Natural Leather Seating Material, SKS, Alarm & HL, All the airbags, Navi, Fog & Driving Lamps
Exterior/Interior Colors- Super White (040) G/B, Classic Silver Metallic (1F7) G/G, Magnetic Grey (1G3) available w/04/06 production G/G, Black (202) G/B, Barcelona Red Metallic (3R3) G/B, Driftwood Pearl (4S2) B/B, Silver Pine Mica (6U0) G/B, Seaside Pearl (8S2) G/B. The G or B indicate the interior colors (Gray or Beige) that will be available for either the cloth or leather. G/B means Grey or Beige is available for both, G/G is Grey only for both, B/B is Beige only for both.
Looking at a few comments up topic, I agree one cannot compare a Prius with a GS because they are very different vehicles, even though they are similar in some ways. Both are similar in interior size, both are very quiet, both ride comfortably, luggage space is similar, neither are exciting to drive (to me - I like the M35 and M45). The GS has much nicer materials inside, is much more luxury feeling, accelerates faster, and handles better when pushed.
When we bought the Prius I was not thrilled driving it. In fact, I didn't want to drive it. 4000 miles later I like it enough to want to replace my current 'trip' car with a second Prius.
Prius downsides so far: Rear head room is tight. The trunk area when using the cargo cover is shallow. The tires do not corner well. The A/C could be a little stronger (good up to about 90 or so, but needs more fan speed at higher outside temps). The interior fabric shows soil too easily. The paint is chip prone (front end has more chips in 4000 miles than our Avalon had in 73,000 miles). The gas tank size varies, making filling the tank all the way a challenge (it has a bladder). The front is low enough to hit curbs. The nav system is second rate compared to my MDX nav system. HID headlights don't seem to illuminate as far as my other cars' regular halogens.
To me, our Prius is far from perfect, yet the more we drive it the more we like it. 45 mpg so far, using actual miles vs. actual gallons added, about what I expected. The car is not driven differently than the other cars - keep up with traffic in town and on the freeways (75 mph or so). A/C is on all the time. This is the first car I have owned that the on board computer shows less mpg than the car actually gets. All the others are the opposite, shown better mpg than the car gets.
Perhaps because most of your driving with the hybrid is urban? I'm thinking city crawling would favor hybrids since they're most often running off the battery pack. On highways, they're in the gas engine cycle aren't they?
The car seems happy at speeds below 80. Higher speeds result in lots of engine noise on hills, and I suspect significantly lower mpg. I believe the good highway mpg (gets about the EPA number) is because the car maintains downhill freeway speeds on electric power alone. On steeper freeway downhills, on cruise control, regenerative braking is used to maintain speed.
They are saying that:
"Hybrids, whose selling point is fuel thriftiness, had some of the biggest disparities, with fuel economy averaging 19 mpg below the EPA city rating. "
Go to:
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/content/display_report.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=77274- 9&bmUID=1126184204306
to read more.
Read a related Detroit Free Press article for a summary:
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/consumer7e_20050907.htm
Railroadjames(Friends Don't Let Friends Drive SUV'S)
For me only, and not anyone else...On a new Corolla LE with 25 mpg city, lets just say for the sake of an argument, and the Prius at 45 mpg city, over a three year period only at 5000 miles per year ( Very low for me ). At $3 a gallon, I would be saving about $1,000.00 for the three year period, and the cost of the vehicle over the Corolla would be about 6 to 7 thousand dollars. That would be like $5,000 dollars plus in the hole...Not good . If you drive more than I do, and keep the car longer than three years, than you just might break even between the Prius, and Corolla. Now if the mileage claims are worse or better, the numbers change slightly, but still being in the hole for someone like me. Its not worth it at this time to pay a premium for a Hybrid. If the hybrid cost less, than there would be a better reason for me to buy one. Just good to know that doing the numbers for everyone's driving habits, and how much time they plan on keeping the vehicle is helpful in making future plans..... Now, if they lowered the price, when more hybrids are introduced by other manufactures will be helpful
I think the press just wants to make a point. I know a couple that have 2 priuses. one person consistantly gets in the upper 40's and the other consistently gets the lower 40's. It's the same car, but it just boils down to 2 different driving styles. that's a range of about 20-30% off the EPA estimates. BUT WAIT!!!! Consumer reports states that there are a number of cars that are getting 35-50% off their EPA estimates....hmmm.... even the 19 mpg difference CR observes is less than 33% off.
I wish CR had a break down or some indication of the number of cars that had better, the same, marginally worse, much worse gas mileage compared to EPA estimates. My guess would be that the discrepancy that the prius sees is more inline with the descrepancy seen in the majority of cars.
For most people though the question really is about replacing a car or SUV that gets low mileage and most SUV and minivan folks are still going to have to haul stuff and people.
Ok, then get a Toyota Matrix, which is basically a Corolla hatchback.
Several times I have questioned the validity of Consumer Reports. I consider it a tool of the manufacturers. I get lambasted every time I infer that CR tests are skewed to make certain vehicles look better than others. When CR raved about the Prius, even though they were overpriced & over rated. Many on here jumped to their defense. Who on the hybrid forum is defending this test when it is not kind to the hybrids? For me to get EPA estimates on any vehicle I have owned I have to use restraint in my driving. The same goes for the hybrids. It is just more "in your face" with the hybrids. The reason Toyota built the Prius, was to save fossil fuel and lower CO2. This was part of Japan's goal with the Kyoto Treaty.
Even if you use the 48 MPG that about 300 owners of the Prius are reporting, it is about 13% less than EPA estimates. If you are happy with that and the big markups on the hybrids, I say go for it. I don't think the average citizen is interested in paying a premium for a car that does not deliver what is advertised. Whether it is performance, mileage or towing ability.
I just can't get excited about the Matrix/Vibe. I drove one last year (vibe) on a 8 hour trip and it was OK. I didn't hate it and it is a hatch. It seems to be less roomy than the Prius. And truthfully, if I am going to give up my Honda Pilot because of gas mileage issues I want something more than a Matrix. The Prius offers outstanding mileage and even at 50 mph I will still be $300/month ahead over driving the Pilot. I have to replace a car (Merc Villager minivan 10 yrs old, 100,000 miles) in the next 1-2 years anyway, it seems a prudent choice to go for the Prius because of the driving I do.
Railroadjames(Drive a smart car)
I guess you would not understand. How much could you have gotten a more comfortable stripped Camry or closer to the Prius a stripped Corolla for? You bought the bare essentials car for $21k. In CA a Prius with just side air bags is going out the door for about $25k. A comparably equipped Camry is out the door for $20k. I Have driven both and the Camry is a better handling, more comfortable riding car. If gas mileage is your only criteria in buying a car the Prius is better. If you want to see out the back the Camry is better. If you want KNOWN good resale the Camry is better. If you want the choice of colors you can get what you want with the Camry. The Prius is a very specialized vehicle that appeals to a very narrow audience. I don't understand why that is such a difficult concept to grasp. PLUS they are over priced in most markets in the USA. Toyota has lost all control of the robber baron dealers. There is NO economic justification for the Prius.
Thanks for your cooperation and participation!
"Now, if they lowered the price, when more hybrids are introduced by other manufactures will be helpful
"
This may interest you.
To summarize:
".....The new Saturn Vue Greenline gasoline-electric hybrid coming next summer will add a twist to the hybrid equation: a more affordable price.
...."
To see the complete article, click on link below.
http://www.cars.com/go/news/Story.jsp;jsessionid=1L3W4NZ3YGXD5LAZGRCE2VA?section=news&stor- y=090705storybAN&subject=recent&referer=&aff=national
CR on the other hand comes up with their numbers in a real world test following as closely as possible the same conditions and mix and with professional drivers who should be more consistent. Are they any better? Over time and if their methodology is good their results should be closer to real world. They've seemed to come close to my results over the years (they also rated the first new car I bought, the '78 Plymouth Horizon, "unacceptable" and the magazine came to my home within days from when I took delivery - we thought it was a nice car at the time). Another but not the only source, go with what works, get info from various sources and use your judgment.
From a real world owner of a Highlander Hybrid, I really am getting 27MPG, my old van was getting 17 in similar driving so I'm doing almost 50% better. As good as the EPA numbers - no, though it does keep getting better. Friends - who have a non-hybrid Highlander and get about 20 mpg - just came back from Canada and were happy to see it was still less expensive for a gallon of gas in the US than in Canada. So comparing just their experience to ours, we're in the real world doing 7 MPG better than a similar Highlander.
If "bottom line return" is your interest a hybrid today may not be for you. For us we looked at the bigger issue of improving our overall mileage with a vehicle that met our needs AND would reduce our use of gasoline, which to us was overall more important than a bottom line comparison of "total costs" on comparable vehicles. To us it's an investment in overall societal returns - less dependence on fossil fuels with less polluting vehicles could change our balance of payments and improve air quality. Folks have their own priorities, we all need to decide what works for us. CR's a valid source, so are others.
"It's still a good idea to buy one, because then you fill up less, which means you don't have to visit the gas station as often."
Ahem, the circle is complete...
The goal of Japan in the Kyoto Treaty may well have been the presumably desirable intangibles of decreased reliance on fossil fuels and the reduction of "greenhouse" emissions. But don't delude yourself - Toyota, et al, were a little more hard-nosed. Their primary motivation (and responsibilty to their shareholders) are eventual very lucrative profits and increased market share. The cooperation between business and government is always a "marriage of convenience".
H'mm I guess very few people have bought hybrids then since the best case payout is 5 years and typical is 7 years. Just doesn't make economical sense.
Robvia also said " It's still a good idea to buy one, because then you fill up less, which means you don't have to visit the gas station as often." I must be missing something if you fill up less, obviously you won't go to a gas station as often. But according to your logic a car with a bigger gas tank would also suffice
I still don't understand why a "hybrid is still a good idea".
YMMV,
MidCow
2. Every mile you drive a hybrid is money in your pocket versus almost anything you trade in for it.
3. If you live in an HOV lane "hybrid friendly" state, you get to work faster. Alone.
4. Tax credit in 2006 will be very good, up to $3150, and if you live in a state which has tax incentives for hybrids, it pays even more.
5. The fun of trying to milk every ounce of distance out of a gallon of gas - Hybrids have the instrumentation and tools to help you do that, moreso than any non-hybrid.
6. More hybrids on the roads means more clean air for you and the Earf.
7. You can cringe "WAY WAY LESS" when gas jumps 30 cents in a month.
8. You will become educated about the awesomeness of Hybrids and will pass your knowledge on, meaning more hybrid owners, which is better for all the above reasons.
9. No other way can you get the awesome feeling of achieving 60/70/80 miles per gallon in a four or five passenger car.
10. Depending on your commute, you might be one of the lucky people who can get 1,000 miles out of ONE tank of gas - many people have done this.
11. You are actually doing something emotionally good for yourself, for all the above reasons.
12. You will become a "less aggressive" driver almost surely - Hybrids encourage safe driving because only that method can achieve absolute maximum efficiency. Very few Hybrids are totalled in accidents.
13. Fewer trips to the gas station than most cars and with a smaller gas tank, less time spent when you actually have to fill up. And less money out of your pocket too.
14. Helping push the auto industry away from the antiquated gasoline only engines.
15. In your own small way, you are doing what one person can to help reduce the dependence on foreign oil, and oil in general.
16. Put your money where it ought to go - a good car with a good cause behind it.
17. Give yourself an opportunity to acquire a skill which will serve you FOREVER - learning how to drive in the most fuel efficient manner.
There are many others, but these are the main ones.
It's just not worth taking the time to refute every one of your statements, so I'll just say that the majority only apply to a hybrid enthusiast, not the general population.
Hmmm, if that is true, the resale value of the hybrids will not be as high, since newer models are cheaper...
Cruising and enjoying passing the filling stations!!! Life is good!!!!
That's my point - people who think they are not "hybrid enthusiasts" can very well become one just by buying a hybrid for any or all of those reasons - and they don't even know they want to become one yet, maybe.
I had no intention of becoming a hybrid enthusiast when I bought my car. I just bought the Civic on the lot at the time which interested me the most. It was AFTER I started to understand the hybrid technology that I started to become an enthusiast/advocate.
It's like the old saying "once you go *whatever* you'll never go back." Once you go hybrid and become educated as to their benefits, a non-hybrid car will not seem as enticing.
As far as refutation, there is none possible. They are all individually "good reasons" to buy a hybrid - maybe not to everyone, but each one applies to a lot of people. Do each and every one of them apply to every person in the USA? No, but most of them do. And taken one at a time to at least some of the population, all of them are good reasons to buy a hybrid.
1. Car manufactures already have money to do the research and have been doing so for longer than you or I have been alive.....
2. Money in your pocket for each mile you drive ? Ya right... You paid more for the hybrid and are trying to catch up to those that paid less for a non hybrid car.
3. If you live in a HOV lane...Most do not. Not Appl for me and many others
4. Tax credit for some is good. For me, I have a tax free pension that I am living on, so its a wash
5. Fun to milk out every ounce of distance is the same as number 2. You and everyone else are still playing catch up to the amount paid over what I can get a sedan for that is non hybrid.
6. More hybrids on the Road will give us more clear air to breath... That is a better answer, but it will take decades to feel and breath the clean air.
7. No argument
8. Already educated on the hybrids, so I don't have to have one to pass it along
9. 60 / 70 / 80 / miles per gallon has yet to be achieved.... You mean 40's and maybe 50's
10. Many people have done this...1,000 miles per tank... Who ? Who are the many ?
11. Emotionally good for one self.... Really ? OK...Paying more ? Not feeling good about that one....
12. Less aggressive. You and I don't know that. Wait till some bum cuts you off or some little old sweet lady gets in front of you going 25 mph in a 45 zone.
13. I'll agree with that one
14. OK again... But it will take time
15. Agreed on number 15
16. Only when the price of the hybrid comes down can I agree with you on this one. Get a good mpg non hybrid costing less and you can achieve the same results.
17. I already know how to drive.
The end......
10. Many people have done this...1,000 miles per tank... Who ? Who are the many ?
You are kidding, right? You know that many people have achieved those numbers - go to the "real world mileage database" at that "you know where" site to see proof of those two gems.
17. I already know how to drive
So do we all. But do all of us "drive for max MPG almost all the time?" No, but hybrid owners can and do learn a completely new, more fuel efficient method of driving. Almost anyone can drive well enough to get from point A to point B, but only certain driving styles will maximize the MPG between those points.
As pf_flyer always tells us, we are not going to be able to "sway other people's views" on this site, and that's mostly true. But what bothers me sometimes is that I am putting out good, solid, TRUE information that will HELP people, and I have to defend it and defend it and defend it. (long sigh) :sick:
The truth should defend itself. Until the hybrids are economically justifiable, you will have to make up reasons for people to buy them. There is nothing wrong with buying hybrids for any reason you may conjure up. It is still very simple. They are very hard to justify the premiums and gouging by most car buying folks. You should be preaching to the dealers that are making them less than desirable options for most buyers.
Is this a joke? If auto makers were relying on economically justifiable sales, they would be a mere shadow of there current sizes. When the single lady down the street bought the massive Suburban in which she rides alone & never hauls anything or when my co-worker whose children are grown & gone bought his second Envoy so both he & his wife can each commute to there respective jobs in one, would this sales be considered economically justifiable? Was me buying my 03 Mercedes SLK 32 AMG economically justifiable? Heck No!! I bought it cause I wanted it, as did the other buyers above. I would imagine at least 80% of auto sales aren't economically justifiable in that they are not the cheapest and most economical for the job. People buy cars because they like them! That is why I bought my Lexus 400h. But I also feel good because my last 2 tanks have calculated out to 28.8 mpg and 28.4 mpg respectively. Compared to about 12 mpg for the same local driving in my Dakota pickup or the 22 mpg in the crappy 99 Neon that I used for my short city commutes for a while. I also feel great because after gliding through town for about 2 miles then stopping at a light for 30 seconds, that in just a few seconds the car next to me spewed more pollution from his tail pipe then I did in the last 2 miles cause I did it all without the ICE running. As the Mastercard add says some things are priceless!
Sorry, I have to disagree. My point was that your reasons were not worth refuting, in my opinion.
And I am aware of the benefits of a hybrid. But I am also aware of the unknowns and limitations of hybrids. I try and keep a balanced mind on this and all issues.
Assuming hybrids are competitive when I am next in the market for a vehicle (around 2014 or so unless something happens to one of my Hondas), I will certainly consider them. However, there may be alternate choices by that time, such as small diesels or even CNG or hydrogen. One of my cars is paid off (the other is almost paid off), and getting a hybrid would just put me back on the car payment road again. I can live without that. Since both my vehicles are reasonably good on MPG (for ICE only), I'm not too concerned. The wife drives a Civic and I drive a CR-V (which is within 5 MPG of the HH in city driving, in general, and at 27 MPG on the highway at 80 MPH, I get the same as the HH or RX400.
Downsides
The Prius doesn't handle well - the OE tires don't grip well when cornering. This is also a problem on other hybrids designed for max mpg.
Compared to many econo cars, one will probably not make up the added cost of a Prius with reduced fuel costs. This is common to all hybrids. However, no other econo car offers all the goodies offered on a Prius, so that should be added to the decision process - it did for us.
Our Prius gets the about the same mpg as my old VW Rabbit Turbo diesel got about 25 years ago - 45 - and has half the range (500 or so vs. 1100). The 96 Avalon we got rid of when we bought the Prius had almost the same highway range as our Prius (500 miles or so). Depending on what one compares to, the hybrid range may not be better.
Acceleration is less with our hybrid compared to our other cars and the old Avalon.
Hi miles resale value is an unknown, as are long term repair costs.
The number of repairs shops available for service is limited - essentially one must go to a dealer.
Don't know about other hybrids, but Prius service manuals are expensive (over $400 to get all of them).
Driving a max mpg designed hybrid is not much fun from a driving point of view unless one cares only about mpg.
Our Prius is far from perfect, but not because it is a hybrid.
Thinking about getting a second one, or maybe the new Civic.
This is really the point - the topic is called "any downside to buying a hybrid?" and frankly, the answer is obvious - yes, there is. Just as there are downsides to any other product on the market, there are downsides to hybrids. The trick is to identify what those "downsides" are to you, personally, and whether the limitations outweigh the benefits for you, personally.
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You should be satisfied with your Envoy. It is getting precisely what the EPA estimated on the window sticker, 14/18 MPG. I would be ticked about the Prius at only 50 MPG. It is EPA 60 in town and 55 combined. As long as people understand the EPA estimates are way off for the Prius If the prospective buyer is warned about the HUGE discrepancy, I guess it is fair. The people getting only 35-40 MPG with the Prius have a legitimate complaint.
READ THE ENTIRE WINDOW STICKER!
Here's what it says: Actual Mileage will vary with options, driving conditions, driving habits and vehicle's condition. Results reported to EPA indicate that the majority of vehicles with these estimates will achieve between 51 and 69 mpg in the city and between 43 and 59 on the highway.
That is far from what some people claim those estimates state, which still only represent ideal driving... like speed & temperature far from being representative of real-world conditions.
JOHN
You are right that people can & do report their mileage to the EPA. That is not what is on the window sticker. Just a disclaimer that your mileage may vary from the 60/51 MPG estimate. If you consider yourself Joe average driver you would expect to get the average on that window sticker. Most people do not come to these forums prior to purchasing a car. They have not been exposed to all the debate over how lousy the EPA testing procedure is.
I don't consider gas mileage a downside to owning a Hybrid. 48 MPG is darn good for the Prius and the HCH. Some folks might not think so, if they expected to get 60 MPG around town.
what if the title of this thread was "downsides to owning a big HD dually pickup truck as your daily driver." p/u owners would have a list that goes like, "can tow a heavy load, has a big bed to put lots o' stuff, is cool,..." where p/u haters would say, "for what most p/u drivers tow, you could use a ranger, the beds are always empty, is not cool,..." and both parties would be right.