Any downside to buying a hybrid?

falconone · October 2005

Very rare from what I've read on some of the Prius/hybrid forums. Now that they have a software update, it's a non issue. I only wish every car on the road were as reliable as the Prius. Anyone read that article that was posted here yesterday? Yup... Prius has a VERY low problem rate.

pjyoung · October 2005

Go to any BMW dealer and try any BMW and see what you think about handling and braking

Sorry I wasn't clear. Compared to the brakes in my mother in law's Ford (maker of Lincoln), the brakes will stop very quickly. The brakes in the Ford (maker of Lincoln) almost felt as thought they were an afterthought.

michael_mattox · October 2005

Jewel:

That takes us back to the most logical conclusion on this accident...The car that hit the prius was probably German (known for being unreliable) driven buy someone who bought into the whole drivers car thing and was going too fast they hit their brakes coming into a corner but they didn't work....

The Prius probably saved their live by stopping them and absorbing the energy of the hit....

falconone · October 2005

Actually the rear disc/drum setup has very little bearing on braking. The Euro Prius has rear discs and the stopping distances are negligible between the two. As an FYI... the Prius has a SHORTER stopping distance from 60-0 than the Acura TL. For some reason Honda brake systems are lacking. I had a 1990 Integra that stopped from 60 in 122 feet (Motor Trend). The TL does this in 140 feet. The Prius does it in 128 feet. That to me is excellent. Worst brakes I ever had were in my 1999 Ford Exploder. HORRIBLE brakes.

michael_mattox · October 2005

Jewel:

Hmmmmmmm The Previas must have been pre-97 since that is when the Sienna came out....consumer Reports rates it's crash test scores as IMPRESSIVE.

michael_mattox · October 2005

Snake:

you have mentioned, maybe a dozen times now, that you want to see long term real world results....apparently the 9 years the Prius has been on the market in Japan doesn't qualify as LONG TERM for you....I suppose it will be awhile before you even think about one of those new Hi-Tech Diesels..

What do you concider long term?....Jet planes have only been commerical for about 50 years now...Do you fly in jets? Do you own a cell phone yet? How about a computer? they are relatively new....do you post on a borrowed one?

Just curious.

falconone · October 2005

I wonder if people have these expectations when a new engine is developed or a five or six speed transmission. Should I wait five years before I buy a car that has a six speed automatic transmission? Should I wait three years before the Jeep Grand Cherokee's new 4 wd system is mastered? Maybe that's what makes me different. I love to buy something different. As an aside, I just bought a Tassimo and it didn't work. I'm exchanging it tonite. I just got unlucky I guess.

snakeweasel · October 2005

Good point. The brakes in the Prius are way better than the other cars I've driven.

That only makes me wonder what other cars you have driven. Anyways I have Lincoln (34) with mechanical brakes, anyone that rear ends me in that thing has to be sleeping at the wheel

snakeweasel · October 2005

What makes you think it was a German car? It could have been a Japanese Car, or a British car or a French car, or a ....well you get my drift. Heck it might have been another Prius.

falconone · October 2005

Not sure why he would have thought that. German cars usually have excellent brakes. The brake dust on the wheels... that's another story!

snakeweasel · October 2005

Jet planes have only been commerical for about 50 years now.

Yeah and the first ones had a nasty habit of dropping out of the sky even though all the testing showed no problems with them.

Since more and more people are keeping cars for 150-200k or more miles I will wait until there is a sizable number of hybrids that have been on the road for that period and see what the long term experience is.

Is that to much to ask?

larsb · October 2005

quote snakew-"Since more and more people are keeping cars for 150-200k or more miles"-end quote

What is the source of that data? I question that as truth. Seems like with us buying upwards of 17 million vehicles in the USA that more and more people are trading cars IN for replacements rather than keeping them for the long haul.

Assume for a second your statement is true. That means that cars are being built BETTER in today's world, meaning they are lasting longer. If that trend is a fact, then HYBRIDS ALSO will last longer in today's world.

snakeweasel · October 2005

I do have similar expectations with any new technology. More and more companies push out technology before all the bugs are out of it just to beat the competition to the punch. Yes that means that I am a generation or two behind in some things (i.e. computers) but they work just a fine for me and I don't have all the issues that many of my "I need the newest gadget" friends have. There is a reason for the phrase "bleeding edge technology".

When it is proven in real world experiences then I would consider it.

larsb · October 2005

quote snakew-"When it is proven in real world experiences then I would consider it."-end quote

What kind of "real world" do you live in? Toyota has sold 400,000 hybrids worldwide. Are they dying like flies, or are they achieving a 94% re-buy rate? How about the stories of the 200,000 kilometer taxi in Canada? How about the HCH with 78,000 miles and a battery testing at 96% of original capacity? How about Priuses on the road for almost 9 years in Japan?

I'd say anyone "still waiting for Hybrids to become proven" is driving blind and not looking at the facts.

falconone · October 2005

You've made your point that you want to wait. Why labor the issue? I am satisfied that the technology is sound. With the generous warranty I will have no issues to worry about once I get my car. It gets quite monotonous to regurgitate the same issues time after time. Let's move on......

snakeweasel · October 2005

What is the source of that data? I question that as truth. Seems like with us buying upwards of 17 million vehicles in the USA that more and more people are trading cars IN for replacements rather than keeping them for the long haul.

Yes over 16 million cars were sold in 2004, but there are 220,000,000 registered cars in the US. That means if all things are constant it would take 13 years of selling 16 million cars a year to replace the 220 million. This means that the average car is not being sold for scrap after 4 or 5 years. Now since the average driver is driving about 15k miles a year that would be almost 200k miles in 13 years.

Now of course not all those 220 million cars are driven 15k a year, some are a lot more, some are a lot less and while not all, maybe not even a majority, get the 150k+ range it is a strong indication that there is a sizable number that are getting very high numbers on the odometers.

This is reinforced by the fact that the it is estimated that the average age of a car in the US is nine years. That would put the average car getting over 125k miles. That means there have to be a large number of high mileage cars out there.

That plus the ever increasing number of people I see talking about the how many miles their cars have (either in real life on the internet or other media) leads me to strongly believe that there is an ever increasing number of people keeping cars longer and longer.

Now back to the hybrids, it is a still a relatively new technology, more complicated than a non hybrid. All I am saying is that I am waiting to see what happens when hybrids start getting above 150K miles on a regular basis.

snakeweasel · October 2005

OK you have provided one car that has 78k miles and one that has 122k (200,000 miles). When you can provide a proven track record of high mileage cars (lets face it 122k miles isn't really high mileage these days). we will talk. But please don't show me a car with 78k miles on it and say "look its durable", that might have worked 25 years ago but not now.

Lets have this discussion 5 years down the road ok?

larsb · October 2005

hybrid cars does not mean they do not exist.

I think with a satisfaction rate of 96%, there will be a lot of Priuses kept for a lot of miles.

About the five years thing - neither of us will believe in five years that we even were even required to have this discussion. Hybrids will be as common as ABS systems.

larsb · October 2005

quote snakew-"But please don't show me a car with 78k miles on it and say "look its durable"=-end quote

You obviously missed my point. My point in illustrating the 78,000 mile HCH was that the battery tested 96% percent of original charging capacity.

That extrapolates out to 450,000 miles before it even gets down to 75% capacity !!

We know Honda Civics as a whole are solid cars, capable of easily reaching 200,000 miles and more. The only concern with the Civic Hybrid is the longterm reliability of the battery. So a battery only losing 4% charge in 78,000 miles means that the battery is holding up VERY WELL and forecasts to hold that distinction for a lot more miles.

falconone · October 2005

Agreed 100%. I am glad I don't have the POV of certain people that don't wish to embrace technology. Imagine waiting on the sidelines for years until you know that the six speed transmission ACTUALLY works? Digital cameras haven't been around for many years either. Maybe I'll wait another ten years until I know they won't break. Hmmm... I am not sure about those flat TVs.. I am gonna just wait and see if they last. Imagine if everyone had that philosophy? I'm am glad I am an early adopter. I ain't afraid. I can just imagine when the clock ticks 150,001 on my hybrid. Everything starts crapping out. Yeah.... ok... LOL

9 weeks for Zelda!!!

falconone · October 2005

http://tinyurl.com/94cow

It doesn't get any better than this folks

falconone · October 2005

gagrice · October 2005

C) There is no cleaner vehicle for the environment on the road at the moment

You must have forgotten the Civic GX. Cleanest vehicle ever tested by the EPA.

falconone · October 2005

No infrastructure for fills. It will never catch on. They sell something for the home that enables you to fill overnight. I have no idea who would buy something like that here in the NE. The nice thing is that the cost per mile is lower than gas or diesel. Perhaps we should reword it then. The Prius is the CLEANEST car that the EPA has tested that has more than 1000 on the road.

gagrice · October 2005

So a battery only losing 4% charge in 78,000 miles means that the battery is holding up VERY WELL

C'mon, you know better than that. Batteries do not deteriorate in a linear fashion. That battery could have lost 4% in the last 4000 miles. It could get to 70% by 90k miles. It could have a cell go bad at any time. Batteries are going to be an issue after the warranty is up. What percentage do you have to lose before the auto maker will replace the battery? I have two Dell laptops. One is 6 years old and the battery is still great. My new one is less than 2 years old and the battery is good for less than 5 minutes. Both were treated the same. There is no way to know when a battery will die. You are at the mercy of the dealer on the warranty issue unless it craps out completely.

gagrice · October 2005

I have no idea who would buy something like that here in the NE.

I don't believe Honda sells them anywhere but CA. So you are probably right. With Natural gas doubling in price they probably are not that great on economy. They are still the cleanest vehicle EPA has tested. That was the issue.

falconone · October 2005

Your Dell Laptop does not have a computer optimizing its state of charge. If that were the case, you'd get a lot more use out of it. I'll put my faith in the 150,000 warranty. Heck, I bet if I sold it with 100,000 miles on it, I'd get a good price.

gagrice · October 2005

I bet if I sold it with 100,000 miles on it, I'd get a good price.

That would be a wise move on your part.

falconone · October 2005

Perhaps wise, but I have no intention. I want to conduct my own test and to prove to others that I can achieve 200,000 miles. Hopefully everyone is around to see it when I'm complete.

gagrice · October 2005

I'll be here to hear you gloating. I hope your Prius makes it.

falconone · October 2005

It's not only Dell batteries. Most of the laptop makers probably use similar or the same suppliers. On another note, if I do hit that 200,000 mark and my batteries are in good shape will you buy me anything? :P :P

gagrice · October 2005

I will owe you several boxes of Krispy Kreme Donuts....

falconone · October 2005

Deal... I prefer the glazed cream filled.

Kirstie_H · October 2005

We've gone off a cliff again, folks - let's stay focused on hybrid vehicles. Thanks!

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

michael_mattox · October 2005

Snake:

Ok wait...How long till all the hybrids have 200,000plus miles on them in enough numbers to satisify you???

That should be in another 10-15 years ....by then the rest of us will be driving our Fuel cell cars...and you will have another 10-20 yr. wait for them...

The car you are currently driving must be REALLY OLD Technology.

1)Hybrids are a simple technology.

2) Since there are only about 280,000 people in the US that would mean there is close to one car per person....it indicates that people don't just REPLACE CARS..they ADD cars....

michael_mattox · October 2005

Do either of your Dell batteries weigh 100 LBS???

snakeweasel · October 2005

Hybrids are a simple technology.

Lets see you take two different energy systems mated to an engine and make it so that depending of the situation and fuel/power considerations either one will cut out to make the vehicle more efficient is simple? I believe I read one place that a Prius's drive train has something like 40% more parts than the drive train of a non hybrid car and thats simple?

If you believe its simple please contact me as I have a wonderful deal for you.

PF_Flyer · October 2005

You HAVE to pay attention to the topics.

The subject in this discussion has nothing to do with the length of bathroom breaks, jetliners, or how German and American carmakers compare to Toyota.

These off topic posts are simply going to be removed.

Please remember to think about what discussions you are in BEFORE you go off on a tangent and we have to step in and try and herd the conversation back on track.

falconone · October 2005

We are on the cusp of some very interesting technology being introduced in the auto industry. One of them being hybrid technology. But there are other systems being introduced that people are embracing without even thinking twice.

Lane Departure Warning

Laser speed control

CVT Tranny

These are just the tip of the iceberg!

I myself would have no problem buying a vehicle with new technology. The Mercedes laser speed control (latest version) will actually brake for you in stop and go traffic!!! Can you imagine... no throttle inut is needed other than your ability to steer. I'd have NO problem buying a car with that technology. This leads me to my conclusion. I am buying a hybrid because in my mind there is NO downside. I am convinced that this is reliable and safe technology. Anyone that wishes to wait on the sidelines is welcome to do so. Anyone that is speculating as to the longevity is just making assumptions. I'm willing to take that risk. Some aren't and that's fine.

shipo · October 2005

"I am buying a hybrid because in my mind there is NO downside."

Hmmm, I suppose that "NO downside" is a relative term. For me at least, I very much like a performance oriented car that can accelerate, brake and maneuver better than 90% of the cars on the road. Considering that the slowest of my last six cars was still able reach 60 in the high six to low seven second range, and even our two minivans can do it in the mid nine second range, I'd say that to me at least, there is a significant downside to a Hybrid that has acceleration numbers in the ten plus range. That and the skinny high mileage oriented tires that negatively impact handling and braking and you have the makings of a car that is, in my mind, highly likely to be incapable of attaining my minimum acceptable level of performance.

All of that being said, the potential for the high mileage is intriguing enough that I want to drive one and see for myself how well something like the Prius can perform. The only problem is that of the half dozen or so dealers that I called last week, none of them have any unsold Prius(es) in stock, and will not have any for quite some time. Hmmm, I'm thinking that the A3 is looking better all of the time. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

falconone · October 2005

The A3 was a contender for me too. I've owned two Audis (A4 and the Allroad). Nice cars. The A4 has a cramped driver's seat as the center console intrudes too much. The Prius I have driven (my sister's) has upgraded rubber and a BT stiffening plate. Makes the car a pleasure to drive. I took it on a 600 mile trip this weekend. Average speed on the highway was 80 and at some point I was going 85-90. Amazing how fast they drive in MA!!!! At the end of the trip I average 46.3 MPG and wasn't fatigued at all. The NAV worked perfect and I never felt the car needed more power. I got twice the mileage I would have achieved in my Audi. The A3 is nice but the options really bring it up too high. I've owned performance cars in the past. No need for 300 + HP gas guzzlers. I love the Prius.

9 weeks for my OWN.

dewey · October 2005

Lane Departure Warning
Laser speed control
CVT Tranny

The above description is my worst nightmare for any car! Passive insulated driving is as nightmarish as being in a zombie-like state!

For me such technologies would require a snooze mode button that will wake me up when the car reaches my destination in a accident-free manner.

My definiton of a "Gem of a Car"

A manual tranny
A gem of a potent engine with a light weight hybrid system that will not weigh down the car's handling dynamics (unfortunately all hybrid systems need to go on a weight watchers' diet)

The weight problem of hybrids are an issue for me! That is why I am considering a "agile and light" future turbodiesel!(BMW or Audi). With turbodiesels there is little performance/handling sacrifice in the name of fuel economy!

falconone · October 2005

That was NOT the point of the post. Pretty soon you won't be able to find a manual tranny in US cars. Very little demand. OOoops... you're from Canada.. sorry.

dewey · October 2005

If that was not the point of your post I must apologize since I am not a frequent visitor to this forum and do not really follow prior posts.

Pretty soon you won't be able to find a manual tranny in US cars.

I am confident that there will continue to be a niche demand for manual performance cars in the future! The last manufacturer of manual performance cars will earn very high monopoly profit margins! No manufacturer will want to give up such hefty profits and will be motivated to continue manufacturing future manual trannies in USA and Canada!

shipo · October 2005

"The last manufacturer of manual performance cars will earn very high monopoly profit margins!"

Yup, and I'll be one of those folks lining up to pay the premium so that I can keep stirring my own until the last possible moment. I'm still hoping that they'll have to pry the stick shift from my cold dead hand some day in the future, however, with the advent of fuel cell vehicles, I may have to religate such a ride to my "Weekender". ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

dewey · October 2005

Let us just hope for fuel cell vehicles with a manual tranny option! :shades:

falconone · October 2005

I am sure they will, but you never know. Look at the BWM SMG. Isn't that clutchless? I seriously doubt that the hybrids (even performance ones) will have a stick to row. Would be interesting to see if it would be embraced. But hey...there's always a motorcycle for your thrills!!

kdhspyder · October 2005

That and the skinny high mileage oriented tires that negatively impact handling and braking and you have the makings of a car that is, in my mind, highly likely to be incapable of attaining my minimum acceptable level of performance.

Actually the tires on the '04/'05/'06 Prius are the same as those on a Corolla CE P185/65R15 nothing special about them nor are they high performance tires either. The Prius was never intended to be a high performance vehicle (0-60 just under 10sec ) you'll have to look into the Lexus line for high performance hybrids. However the new '07 Camry HSD in the spring will likely have the performance you're looking for with little or no 'hybrid premium'.. and Corolla/Civic fuel efficiency.

But these vehicles are not for everyone and one size doesnt fit all.

michael_mattox · October 2005

Falcone:

There are two types of Speed control...Laser and Radar...It is the Radar speed control that is used in Pre-collision safety features...They say Radar Cruse works better in Poor conditions Rain for example.

My 01 Lexus LS has Laser Cruse control...It is Awesome...The set the distance you want to keep behind the car infront of you..and the Max speed you want to go...then you just steer. It does automatically break and accelerate up to the max speed set....I usually set mine at 73 on the freeway if the car in from of me is going 69 my car will do 69 and maintain it's gap with the car in front...It the car in front pickes it up to 90 my car stays at 73...

Note: if it is slow stop and go traffic...under 35 mph....the Laser cruse doesn't work..

My understanding is that this feature will soon be available in more Toyota cars.

The Radar cruse will sense an accident coming tighten your seat belt and shoulder harness hit your breaks hard and do some other stuff that I don't remember as well as work as a neat cruse control...

I believe Mercedes was indeed the first to come out with this technology, Toyota (as always) tested it worked with it made it more reliable and then they started putting it in their cars...04 I think was the first Year for the Radar Cruse with the Pre- Collision.

falconone · October 2005

Thanks so much for that information. My discussion with my friend this weekend (he drives an S class) was about the new system which will actually work in stop and go traffic. It must be very weird not to at least have your foot near the brake under those circumstances. I would not be surprised if the next gen Prius has this feature. Does your Lexus actually brake if someone in front of you slows down suddenly?

Any downside to buying a hybrid?

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