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Comments
I don't have that information at my fingertips - especially the bit about specific third-party wheels. The aftermarket is still figuring out how to deal with TPMS sensors and wheel upgrades. I'll look into it. I'm going to the SEMA (Specialty Equipment Marketing Association) show in Las Vegas in 3 weeks, and I plan on grilling all the wheel makers and TPMS sensor providers I can think of on this issue.
If you can't wait that long, you could always look at the 16" tire size on non-touring Odysseys and use that (P235/65R16, 103T I think - not sure about the "P"). The rolling diameter is the same as the PAX. Buying a set of 16" Odyssey wheels from Honda - go straight to the parts department and avoid talking to the service guys - is doable, but probably pricey. Still, it's probably less than a PAX tire and its a one-time purchase that will get you factory-looking wheels and access to reasonably priced, long wearing, freely available tires now and in the future.
Take your new wheels to a third-party tire store to get them mounted so you don't have to hear the whole warranty violation speech from the Honda service writers. You probably ought to buy 4 new TPMS nuts (they're a one-time use part) when you buy those wheels, so that they can be properly tightened by the tire store when you do the swap.
The tire store might have some of these, but they might not.
BTW: If you want to figure out the equivalent sizes when doing tire swaps and changing wheel diameters, use the following formula:
(width*aspect ratio*2/25.4)+ wheel diameter = overall diameter. For a 235/65R16 tire, this would be...
(235*0.65*2/25.4)+16 = 28.0 inches. Anything within a couple of tenths of this would work. NOTE: the oddball metric PAX size doesn't work with this formula.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
This is where we disagree. Cost is a reasonable issue.
First, PAX tires aren't comparable to anything else. They're not 18" either - they're 460mm. Close to 18", yes, but not interchangeable.
Second, 18-ish" tires are great for a sports car, but I think they are a negative on a comfort-oriented family vehicle like a minivan.
Third, the cost of tires with a larger wheel-diameter (not overall diameter - just wheel diameter) and lower aspect ratio (needed to keep the overall diameter constant) isn't appropriate for this market segment either. A minivan shouldn't have ultra-pricey tires on it - of any type.
Fourth, PAX tires are more expensive that comparably-sized 18's (if you could find them) - especially considering the cost of the required gel-packs and additional charges for mounting and balancing most are subject to with PAX.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Anybody interested in what the new 17" wheels look like? Email me smlycat1@aol.com.
However, there's no reasonable way anyone could have known there is no service centers within 500 miles of certain areas of this country. I think Honda and Michelin REALLY screwed the buyer there. In fact, I think they are legally liable for that one. That's where a class action lawsuit should be started. As mentioned earlier, I have a friend who worked for Ford as a defense lawyer. He agrees with me and would research it. Unfortunately, I live in Florida and the cost of the tires and service facilities is fine. It's not a fight I can initiate. It would need to be started by someone who is directly hurt by this fact.
If anyone is interested let me know. I'll get you talking with them. They're a law firm in California.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Availability is not really an issue for me. There are plenty of PAX-certified locations around me in Illinois. I was wrong, there are actually 4 (not 3) Honda dealers within 45 minutes of where I live that service PAX.
And many more if I include Chicago and St. Louis. Sure, I could be driving in the boondocks and be screwed.
In spite of the horror stories of some people being stranded and inconvenienced, I don't know if there is enough to support a class action. I know I don't fit the class from where I sit.
But it doesn't change the fact that I'm still po'ed that I'm locked into PAX without much recourse. I checked with 5 dealers today, and one of them will change all 4 PAX tires for $1120 out the door. That's the cheapest of 5 dealers. The most expensive was $1359. So, the cost is definitely coming down.
Successful class action? I just don't see it.
Loss of customer goodwill for Honda? Absolutely.
Actually it is a valid case. When you purchase tires it's reasonable to assume the manufacturer has established an adequate support network to service, repair, and replace them. You and I wouldn't be very good class reps because we are not necessarily experiencing the problem first hand. You can't sue for "anticipating" a hardship. There's a legal term for that but I don't know what it is. However, if a class action got rolling we could probably be allowed to join and would receive our share of the award.
Having said that, you gotta give Michelin some credit for setting up this "overnight" policy where they will fly the tires anywhere in the 50 states within 24 hours. That's not as convenient as it could be, however, it might be seen as a good faith attempt by theh courts to remedy this "temporary" lack of servicable areas.
Back to this cost issue (because I'm considering an 08 Ody with Pax). If you found a set of 4 for 1120 OTD, then what's the big problem. A set of decent 18" (no pax) touring tires is going to cost you close to $800. So it costs us an extra $320 for these special tires with this special runflat capability. Amotorize that over 2-3 years and it's peanuts. Again, I don't get that side of the argument AT ALL. I'm just concerned about getting service when I need it.
(235*0.65*2/25.4)+16 = 28.0 inches. Anything within a couple of tenths of this would work. NOTE: the oddball metric PAX size doesn't work with this formula."
You don't actually need a formula with the 3 number PAX metric tire sizing. The first number (i.e. 235) is the section width in millimeters, the second number (i.e. 710) is the overall diameter of the tire, and the third number (i.e. 460) is the wheel diameter.
All things considered, it is a far easier sizing methodology than the convoluted and utterly stupid (metric)/(%) R(inches). Errr, IMHO. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Once again I have to disagree here. You're trying to compare a set of minivan tires with a set of tires for a sport sedan, and that simply is not a valid comparison. If I did that then I'd be upset at the fact that I can buy a full set of premium tires (i.e. tires that outperform the Michelin LX4s that come on the Odyssey) for either of our minivans for a whopping $500 installed, while a set of premium rubber for my 530i SP could cost me as much as $1,400 installed. See the difference?
What you should be comparing is the cost of a set of PAX tires for the Odyssey to a complete set of GFTs for competitive vehicles (i.e. Dodge Grand Caravan, Toyota Sienna,...). Unfortunately for the PAX tires, installed they easily cost two and a half times as much as a set of tires for the other vans, tires that have superior driving characteristics in every regard to the PAX tires.
Granted the extra cost of the PAX tires isn't going to cause most folks who can afford an Odyssey Touring to take out a second mortgage on their home, but it is an issue none-the-less.
Best Regards,
Shipo
However, the deception employed (10 to 15% more than conventional rubber) in selling PAX is inexcusable, especially since it persists to this day.
On the availability issue: it was understandable in the first, maybe even the second, year. For it to still be a problem after 3 full years is simply pathetic.
The person who bought a Touring Ody not only got a PAX runflat tire but also got an entirely superior tire/wheel combination.
So, that's why I was trying to say lets see what it would have cost to replace these 18" PAX tires with similar performance 18" touring tires.
Tire Rack prices for Toyota Sienna XLE Limited
Here are customer reviews on those $99 Yoko tires
As for the specific tires we're talking about here; I'll wager that if you took two Touring model Odysseys, one with the Michelin LX4 PAX tires and the second with the 16" EX wheels and the Yokohama AVID TRZ tires, to a track and recorded their lap times (absurd I know, but it is a good test for tire effacacy), it is my bet that the van with the 16" wheels would win quite handily.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Once again you're not offering proper comparisons. Why? First off, the only two options for tires available for that van (well, three if you want to consider the RFT version of the EL42s) are absolute junk. Bridgestone makes lots of very fine tires; unfortunately the EL400s and EL42s aren't among them. Said another way, virtually any premium aftermarket tire for the minivan market will stomp those Bridgestones into the dirt. That said, I don't believe that Toyota is even selling Siennas with 18" wheels any longer, the one you referenced is now 4 model years old.
A more appropriate comparison is the 2008 Sienna Limited with 225/60 R17 tires. A complete set of Michelin HydroEdge tires (a tire that is far superior to the Michelin LX4, PAX or no) is $500, figure $600-$650 installed.
As for that link you provided to the Yokohamas, sorry, wrong tire. Yokohama makes several different tires in the AVID line; the ones I was referring to are the TRZ model. Check the link below (test results can be found on that page as well as in the Consumer Reports archives):
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=AVID+TRZ
Please keep in mind that I'm not saying that the Yokohama is the ONLY tire to consider here, just that it is the only one of the premier minivan tires that happens to be offered in the proper size for the Odyssey EX.
Best Regards,
Shipo
FWIW, the thing that stood out about the wheel/tire assemblies that were 18" and over regarding their degraded performance was their weight. They were just too darned heavy to be responsive enough. Given that a set of 235/65 R16 tires mounted on 16" rims weighs less than two-thirds that of the PAX assembly, the narrower sidewall height of the PAX tires has a lot of making up to do.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Bottom line---PAX is a unique tire system. It offers attributes unlike any other. All of these comparisons to GFTs, other run flats, 18 vs 16 inch, performance or non-performance, minivan vs. car, aren't proving anything, nor are they really addressing noted frustrations.
Most Ody buyers knew they were getting a unique run flat system. (Or, they certainly should have known.)
The infrastructure, availability, and prices in support of the PAX system are improving by the day. Six months ago, there were no Honda or independent dealers within 300 miles of my house who had the PAX equipment. In a few quick months, they are now all around me. Fewer consumers can make the same argument that VinnyNY and SpiceMikey are making today.
I repeat my position that I don't see the basis for a successful class action, since it must apply to nearly all Touring owners. Infrastructure is no longer the cornerstone of that case. Tire wear isn't a sufficient cornerstone, either. Lack of choice/monopoly probably never was a factor from day one, at least in terms of successful litigation.
Rant all you want on whether you like or don't like PAX (hey, it's a free country). In spite of the fact that Honda is obviously slowly extricating itself from widespread availability of PAX as OEM equipment, I am impressed that they appear to have convinced most of their dealers to invest in the PAX changing equipment. Like I said, I'm in a small town, and I am surrounded by dealers with the capability. And prices are indeed edging down.
In short, one year and many new PAX dealers later, the supposed "security" of PAX is still a myth in many areas. A fact that dealers are still not sharing with consumers.
By the way, my car had the blow out within sight of a regular tire dealer (coincidence--yes; anecdotal--yes; reassuring for a guy with non-PAX tires--absolutely).
Uhhh, what? Like it or not, the measurements don't lie. The sidewall of the 235/65 R16 tires is 6.01" while the sidewall of the PAX 235-710R460A tires is 4.92". How is it that you're claiming the opposite? :confuse:
Best Regards,
Shipo
If you have a flat tire in the middle of nowhere and need an emergency fix, that can be done without removing the tire from the rim. It's called a plug. It's a semi-permanent fix, but it can easily (and often) is done. You won't need a PAX tire machine for that. On the other hand, if you get a complete blow out and need an entirely new tire, chances are good that they won't have your tire in stock EVEN IF it wasn't a pax runflat. Go ahead, walk into some tire store in the middle of somewhere today and try to buy one specific tire. Chances are they'll need to order it from a local distributor warehouse and ask you to come back tomorrow for installation. That's about what would happen with the PAX tire also. If you were looking to replace all 4 they could probably accomodate you if you weren't picky on exactly what tire you wanted.
Point is; This is like the argument about cost. Yes there's a disadvantage with the PAX tires, but that difference is beign exagerated by taking the worst case scenerio (for pax) and comparing it to the absolute best case scenerio (without pax). It's not not as bad as the people on this thread are claiming. If you weren't informed and were getting your information exclusively from this forum, you'd think the sky was falling.
Funny you should mention that. I happened to be walking through a Discount Tire a couple of weekends ago (wifey was shopping and the tire shop was attached to the place where she was shopping). As I walked through the shop I noticed not one, not two, but three different makes and models of tire in the exact size for both of our vans literally sitting on the floor. Given the popularity of the Honda Odyssey, my bet is that the 235/65 R16 tires are widely available and as such fairly easily found simply by calling a couple of local tire shops.
That said, your point about tire availability is well taken, "next day" availability isn't a huge killer IF you have the time and IF you can find a shop with the necessary equipment and training.
The real key here (for me at least) is that if two families set out on a long road trip, one in a PAX Odyssey, and one in either of our vans, and both vans suffered a tire destroying event, ours would get to the destination first. Why? Simple, both of our vans have a full-sized spare tire and a jack.
Looked at another way, I routinely drive our vans the ~250 miles from our home in New England to clients out in Long Island and northern New Jersey. If I suffer a flat (twice) or a blowout (not yet), all I need to do is pull over and swap tires (or maybe call road side assistance if the weather is foul and I'm in a suit), and I'm on my way.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The reason is called brakes. Brakes must fit inside the wheels and sport cars have massive brakes to reduce fading.
Krzys
PS The test I think was done by SCC (Sport Compact Car). They found that handling performance was the best with 17" wheels (no clue about width). Smaller and larger wheels were not helping.
PS2 Plugging. Would you plug a RFT just the same way GFT is plugged? What if RFT was used without air for last 10, 20, 30 miles on highway? RFTs are disposable after being run without air, AFAIK.
The SST runflats seem not to be repairable (so they say). The PAX tires are repairable just like a standard tire. That said, externally inserted plugs are often used as a permanent fix but I'd still get it patched from the inside (once you drive out of the desert, etc.).
Thanks!
The real key here (for me at least) is that if two families set out on a long road trip, one in a PAX Odyssey, and one in either of our vans, and both vans suffered a tire destroying event, ours would get to the destination first. Why? Simple, both of our vans have a full-sized spare tire and a jack.
No question this is true. I guess I'm debating degrees here not absolutes. I'm just trying to say it MAY not be as bad as it seems. I think someone like you (in the north east) shouldn't really find yourself in a jam with these tires. The real legitimate issue is still for those areas of the country that have no service. I think Nevada has one location in the entire state to service PAX tires. That's where Honda should be held accountable. That's where the REAL problem is. It's down right dangerous to venture out with a PAX tire and no spare in those areas.
But even that wouldn't be a problem if they simply disclosed where the non-service areas were? Then, you could make a decision whether to buy this car or not. Am I that far off the mark in my thinking with you guys?
No I haven't had a flat with my PAX tires yet. I was only talking hypothetical. I was also looking at it as a way to buy time, get home, and schedule a true fix or replacement. Again, I'm more stuck on the safety concern then the cost. I think someone buying a $40k van can afford the pax tires. However, being stranded with your family on a trip is unacceptable.
Well, PAX tires are not supposed to be plugged. I don't think the "must be serviced by an authorized (trained) Michelin PAX service technician" statement is entirely a PR line.
Why? PAX tires have a gel coating on the inner surface of the tire. It is there to lubricate the tire when it rubs against the inner support ring when the air comes out and the tire runs-flat. Because the diameters of each are quite different, this is a sliding friction zone and quite a lot of heat is generated.
The gel would have been heated and thinned by this friction. It has to be replaced, and the tire has to be dismounted to do that. And, of course, only PAX-trained shops with the right equipment and baggies of gel on-hand can do that.
As for the plug, the gel would be drawn into the hole by escaping air and be further smeared-around inside it during the plug prep and insertion process. The glue holding the plug in wouldn't be as reliable. And the little nub of the plug that protrudes inside the tire wouldn't be compatible with the support ring the next time it ran flat.
And if you ran flat long enough to get to Joe's tire store for that ill-advised plug, you might be close to the end of the run-flat range of the tire. Even though it might not blow out, a tire that runs-flat for a significant portion of its run-flat range has to be replaced. Despite the gel, the tire suffers irreparable internal damage while running flat.
Spares are better. Run-flats would be great if you still had a spare. You could deal with all of this at your leisure. Odyssey PAX owners are lucky because they have the option to buy a spare (only the Honda factory temporary spare will fit) and stow it in the usual location, as that space is still available in a Touring. Other cars (Mini Cooper S) sacrifice the spare tire well for other uses (centrally mounted dual-exhaust in the 'Coop) making this impossible.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Remote area (worse if no cell phone coverage)
Night (most PAX dealers are Honda dealers or Michelin corporate stores which don't stay open as late as Walmart)
Sundays and major holidays (see above)
All of these limitations would be understandable, even acceptable, if Honda had disclosed these facts up front. They didn't when I bought my van and from what I've heard, they don't now...
A sampling of options:
Sixteen Inch:
235/65 R16 Yokohama AVID TRZ tires
16x7 Leonis AS Silver Machined w/Clearcoat wheels
Total from TireRack: $924.00
Seventeen Inch:
235/60 R17 Pirelli Scorpion STR tires
17x7.5 Rial Porto Bright Satin Sil Paint wheels
Total from TireRack: $1,196.00
Eighteen Inch:
245/55 R18 BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDWS tires
18x8.5 ASA JH8 Silver w/Machined Lip wheels
Total from TireRack: $1,272.00
Nineteen Inch:
245/45 R19 Yokohama ADVAN S.4. tires
19x8.5 ASA JH8 Silver w/Machined Lip wheels
Total from TireRack: $1,808.00
Twenty Inch:
245/40 R20 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S tires
20x8.5 Zinik Z9 Sabini Chrome Plated wheels
Total from TireRack: $2,656.00
Have fun ordering! ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
No and no. Typically folks who've bought new wheels for their cars equipped with active TPMS systems have them removed from their OEM wheels and mounted on their new wheels.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
- breaking the seal is not something done 'simply'. It requires the PAX machine. And
- The TPMS for the PAX rims is different from the TPMS for standard rims. For the same reason that a different machine is needed to break the seal and remove and re-mount the tires - the shape of the rim is different for a PAX wheel than for a standard wheel.
Regards, JEff
There's no easy cost effective way out of it.
Selling the PAX wheel and tire assembly on E-Bay? Who'd buy them? It's not exactly like these things are in high demand. In the account that I read no mention was made of the fate of the PAX assembly.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Who would buy the tires? Lots of people. Not everyone things PAX is a bad idea Shipo.
You can sell your dirty underwear on Ebay. Everything has value to someone.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The sky is blue, would you like to argue that it's really more aqua blue, or maybe powder blue?
Please don't take it personally, you like the PAX system and are both an ambassador and advocate for them, I am the loyal opposition. Said another way, there will always be folks who value a run flat tire (not necessarily in exchange for a spare though), and those who think that they are questionable in their technology and/or implementation. Who's right? Both, the arguments just appeal to different camps. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
My latest contribution to this thread was to just say don't destroy the wheels or inner ring when you dismount them. They have value.
Hmmm, interesting, I consider myself that too. ;-) I guess it all depends upon your point of view. IIRC, the one solid piece of common ground that you and I both stand on is that they should be made (and have since been) strictly optional regardless of what model they are offered on.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I think we actually agree on more then just that. And for anyone stumbling across this long thread it's good to summarize;
1) PAX tires are not fully supported in all areas of the country. You can find yourself with a flat and well beyond the range of the driveablity of the run flat technology if you live in a place like Nevada.
2) For that same reason, we all agree, Honda is WRONG for not stating this fact when they sell these tires. In fact, I personally think they should be sued. I'll point people in the right direction if they are interested in learning more about that idea.
3) These runflats cost more to replace then similar tradition tires. They CERTAINLY will cost more to replace then the optional 16" tires that come with the other trim level Ody's. The 16's are much smaller in both width and diameter. They are by far more economical tires to use.
The only time you (and others) start loosing me is when you talk about the UNACCEPTABLY excessive cost of replacing the tires and/or the short tread life.
1) No one can prove that these tires have a short tread life. In fact, my personal experience, and that of some friends, indicates the contrary. Strangers bouncing on and off these type of threads to scream about ridiculously low tread life is circumstantial. There are often other reasons for low tread life and it can happen with any tire. "Your mileage may vary" applies to all tires. All the talk about that is just noise in my mind.
2) These 18" runflat tires are more expensive to replace then the standard 16" LX tires you get with the Ody. That's a fact. But I think that's just to be expected. If you didn't expect it, then you didn't think it through before you bought them, and you certainly didn't do your homework. I hope new people reading this tread at least learn that much and avoid being surprised.