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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans



  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 848
    it had PAX?

    Early adopters of failed technologies will get burned.

  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    When I bought my first PAX-equipped Ody in 2006, the problems with PAX were not yet known. PAX was heralded as a safety feature based on its ability to run flat for 125 miles. Dealers touted the safety aspects of RFTs at the same time they advertised that the incremental costs would only be 10-15% above the cost of normal tires. They also cited a wide dealer network including all Honda dealerships.

    RFTs were not new, untested, technology--BMWs were equipped with them for several years prior to my purchasing PAX. However, my dealer didn't share the fact that the PAX system is not analogous to the RFTs on my BMW. Specifically, shorter tread life, replacement costs as high as $2400, lack of qualified service centers and a shortage of supply were some of the undisclosed issues.

    I bought my 2006 PAX-equipped Odyssey Touring because I wanted all the Touring's features and that was the only way it was available anyway. I lived in the desert Southwest at the time and traveled between Tucson and Phoenix regularly. RFTs made good sense in the desert--who wants to stop to repair a flat in 120 degree heat? However, my dealer made it sound as though virtually every Honda dealer and most good tire shops would be able to service my PAX tires--not true.

    When I moved to the East Coast, we drove my BMW and Ody cross-country. The BMW had a blowout and we couldn't find an exact replacement tire for about 200 miles. That was bad and it caused me to question how far I'd have to go on the PAX tire if it had failed. Answer: no PAX dealers for over 500 miles along our route and that dealer told me it would take several days to get all the parts. (Not to mention the fact that they would have been closed for the weekend long before I made it there).

    Since I moved to VA, most of the main PAX detractors are no longer factors. There are more PAX-qualified dealers, so I don't have to worry so much about getting stranded (at least during normal business hours). Costs have come down signficantly, but they still cost more than twice what regular tires cost. As to the tread wear issue, I'm hoping that Honda will do something like offer one free set of replacement tires to each PAX owner. Otherwise, I'll trade in my 2007 Ody when the tires wear out at about 35k miles. (As I said earlier, I won't buy another Honda if they don't do the right thing here).
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    we just passed 20K miles on first set of Pax, down to bet 4-6/32 tread depth. Won't go past 25K if that. I just started negotiating on dePax w my dealer. Initially he said can't switch to regular tires, then I conferenced in a Honda dealer in OH that does them and he explained how easy it is and no effect on Honda warranty. My dealer then agreed to do it. I told him I want it done at actual dealer cost for everything, which should be around $7-800. Waiting to hear back.

    IMHO litigation will yield about $1-2 million in legal fees for plaintiffs class counsel, and probably a modest discount (25%) for Pax customers to replace or dePax. Strongly doubt anything more.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    I don't have any confidence that the lawyers can/will do anything to help us. Hopefully, Honda will value its reputation enough to do something on its own. If not, they are sure to lose many loyal customers. As I said earlier, this is my fourth Ody. If Honda doesn't rectify the situation, I simply won't buy another Honda.
  • Honda and Michelin settled on Dec 29 08; terms not disclosed yet. Hearing w/ judge on Jan 14 09 to approve terms at which time we should find out what we get.
  • I've never seen a more blatant attempt to cover up a SNAFU (by any company not just an automotive manufacturer). I actually called Honda Customer Relations. They recommended that I swap the tire and wheel combo out. I called Tirerack to do just that and they said they couldn't help me.

    So, since the professionals couldn't help I referred myself to Edmunds' as well as other forums and forced the swap myself.

    I found MDX wheels 18' 5x120 bolt pattern with either 45 or 55 offset (can't remember) on Ebay for $400 shipping included. I called Tirerack and ordered Kuhmo tires for $600. I bought lug nuts from Acura for $85. I paid my tire guy (long-time friend of 25 years Matthews Tire Co. located in Indian Trail, NC owner's name is Jerry Rowell and Son Jason Rowell) $160 to mount, balance and perform a four wheel alignment. They re-used the TPMS sensors and valve stems by cutting a hole with a steak knife in the sidewall and removed them by hand.

    Jerry and Jason (704) 821-1211 in North Carolina near Charlotte did a great job. They got one of the PAX tires and cut the rest of the rubber off. They spent the rest of the day marveling and admiring the craftsmanship of the PAX system. They couldn't believe Honda could get a plastic looking ring like that over a wheel then mount the rubber around it.

    They both agreed that it was way ahead of its time and also that it was a total flop. The remembered Michelin wanted 5000 to upgrade their machines. Obviously they didn't buy it.

    Honda if you're smart enough to read this.....You all are the ones that flubbed it up! Sure, Michelin made the worst wearing tire in their History but Honda had to charge excessive and absurd amounts to mount those P>O>S> and repair flats at a cost of $40 a pop. Honda, you even ran a buy 3 get one free tire sale with a PAX disclaimer caveat. Michelin was willing to give recompense to dissatisfied customers but I never had one Honda dealer offer to reimburse me for spending 400 a year to mount tires.

    So now I have the greatest van ever made with a beautiful set of 18" Acura rims that are Poppin. My centercaps even fit. I'm PAX free. I feel better knowing that I'm not going to have to consider tire issues in my 05 odyssey for some time. I even got excited enough to give it a complete detail. I just wish I had the pictures to show everyone.

    For all you guys out there sitting on the fence not knowing whether to de-pax or not. Get it done, you'll sleep better knowing you did. I expect the quality and wear life of regular run-flats will get better and probably my next set (in 2.5 years) will be run-flats. Until then, I'll have a smile on my face everytime I drive by a Honda dealer!

    Indian Trail, NC
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Now that Honda is offering the Touring model without the PAX system, it seems odd that nobody has posted about using the new 08 rims/tires for a swapout on an earlier model. Is this not possible for some reason?
  • Do you have any details as to what the judgment was this past Wednesday?

    I am part of the Class Action Lawsuit.
  • bukfanbukfan Posts: 4
    I'm in Ohio and having a difficult time finding any Honda dealer who will help. Even the simple question "will the EX wheels fit my touring edition?" Blank look and an "I don't see why not." I would like to know which OH dealer knows how to dePax.
  • I live in Georgia and got no help from my dealer either. The service manager seemed interested in putting a package together, but was shot down by the owner of the dealership. He put it this simply... liability. The owner of the dealership said they were afraid they would be held liable for any accident that occured as a result of a flat tire. Saying that someone (other than the owner that demanded the run-flats be removed) driving the van might assume the Touring had run-flats and might continue to drive it with a flat tire, causing an accident. They said that unless Honda specifically ok'd a program, they would not help.
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34

    Well, my prediction was slightly optimistic for us and slightly modest for the lawyers. According to the reports, $3 million in fees for them (I predicted 1-2), and Michelin will cover replacement costs pro rata relative to present tread wear. Which is what the original warranty provides anyway. Upshot is jackpot for the plaintiffs lawyers, Honda and Michelin are immunized and we basically get nothing.

    If these terms are final, my advice is that as many as possible should opt out of the settlement (I will). If 10 opt out they can crush us, if 1,000 do it that changes the game since each individual case costs $500-$1,000 for them to defend in small claims. In most cases these claims can be brought in local small claims court, no guarantee of victory but zero is what we have now.
  • bukfanbukfan Posts: 4
    Huge help! Thanks for the link. The video podcast on dePaxing is great! Unbelievable how my dealer says they have never heard of such a thing but the junk yard knows exactly what I'm talking about when I mention PAX.
  • bukfanbukfan Posts: 4
    I need a good resource for finding out what wheels will fit my 2007 odyssey. When I call Honda all I get is a run around. I have found 2009 pilot do I find out if they will fit?
  • bukfanbukfan Posts: 4
    I called college hills honda this morning. They are great! A big hand to them for seeing a problem and working on a solution. Way better then my local dealers who deny that they have ever heard of a problem and refuse to give out any information.
    They have a new link that they just posted yesterday. When you go to the below link and see the dePAX kit click on new location this will take you to a list of honda wheels that will fit your odyssey. My husband is still pressing our dealer to do something. They will let us know Monday. I'm doubtful they will do much if anything. r.htm

    Thanks to skap2 for this original link!!
  • If you live in the Asheville,nc area Mike Smith at Smith Family Tire can depax your odyssey. Had my wifes 05 done yesterday. Mike Smith is a Pro when it comes to tires and wheels. Went to the shop a few days before and order the tires and wheel. Mike called me on the 3rd morning on a friday. Told me tires and wheels were there. I had to work friday so, i told mike i would come by saturday. Arrived at Smith family Tire at 8:30 was leaving at 10:00 smiling, with no more pax tires on the odyssey. The wheel my wife chose looks better than the originals but similar in style. There are several to choose from in wheel tire combinations. I chose the 17inch because this close to what she had. The cost to depax your odyssey should be around $1000.00 depending on what wheel and tire you choose. If you wish to keep the pax tires on the pax wheels please tell mike. If your keeping the tires you will have to buy new tire pressure sensors (tps). If you dont want the tires they will cut a hole in them to retrieve the existing sensors using them in the new wheel. At no cost, if there working why not use them. If you want to step up to an 18inch wheel it will cost you more and there is not as good as tire selection. If your driving in the asheville area stop by and see Mike at Smith Family Tire 5455 Old Haywood Rd. Its off of airport rd and near the end of brevard rd in mills river. Do a search for Smith Family Tire you should find his phone#. Glad i did!
  • cdavicdavi Posts: 1
    Has anyone found a dealer or tire shop in the Chicago area that
    has depax'ed an Odyssey? When I asked my dealer, they
    acted like they've never heard of anyone getting rid of the PAX
  • Just wanted to leave this update for anyone still on the fence about De-PAXing. We took our first long-distance (300 miles) this past weekend on the De-PAX setup. The ride was equal to or better than with the PAX, but the best part was the mileage. We averaged approximately 2 mpg better than previous trips. It may not sound like much, but that's over a gallon of "free" gas per fill up. Our previous best average on this trip had been 23 mpg. This time we averaged 25 mpg both going and coming!
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