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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 848
    it had PAX?

    Early adopters of failed technologies will get burned.

    Krzys
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    When I bought my first PAX-equipped Ody in 2006, the problems with PAX were not yet known. PAX was heralded as a safety feature based on its ability to run flat for 125 miles. Dealers touted the safety aspects of RFTs at the same time they advertised that the incremental costs would only be 10-15% above the cost of normal tires. They also cited a wide dealer network including all Honda dealerships.

    RFTs were not new, untested, technology--BMWs were equipped with them for several years prior to my purchasing PAX. However, my dealer didn't share the fact that the PAX system is not analogous to the RFTs on my BMW. Specifically, shorter tread life, replacement costs as high as $2400, lack of qualified service centers and a shortage of supply were some of the undisclosed issues.

    I bought my 2006 PAX-equipped Odyssey Touring because I wanted all the Touring's features and that was the only way it was available anyway. I lived in the desert Southwest at the time and traveled between Tucson and Phoenix regularly. RFTs made good sense in the desert--who wants to stop to repair a flat in 120 degree heat? However, my dealer made it sound as though virtually every Honda dealer and most good tire shops would be able to service my PAX tires--not true.

    When I moved to the East Coast, we drove my BMW and Ody cross-country. The BMW had a blowout and we couldn't find an exact replacement tire for about 200 miles. That was bad and it caused me to question how far I'd have to go on the PAX tire if it had failed. Answer: no PAX dealers for over 500 miles along our route and that dealer told me it would take several days to get all the parts. (Not to mention the fact that they would have been closed for the weekend long before I made it there).

    Since I moved to VA, most of the main PAX detractors are no longer factors. There are more PAX-qualified dealers, so I don't have to worry so much about getting stranded (at least during normal business hours). Costs have come down signficantly, but they still cost more than twice what regular tires cost. As to the tread wear issue, I'm hoping that Honda will do something like offer one free set of replacement tires to each PAX owner. Otherwise, I'll trade in my 2007 Ody when the tires wear out at about 35k miles. (As I said earlier, I won't buy another Honda if they don't do the right thing here).
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    we just passed 20K miles on first set of Pax, down to bet 4-6/32 tread depth. Won't go past 25K if that. I just started negotiating on dePax w my dealer. Initially he said can't switch to regular tires, then I conferenced in a Honda dealer in OH that does them and he explained how easy it is and no effect on Honda warranty. My dealer then agreed to do it. I told him I want it done at actual dealer cost for everything, which should be around $7-800. Waiting to hear back.

    IMHO litigation will yield about $1-2 million in legal fees for plaintiffs class counsel, and probably a modest discount (25%) for Pax customers to replace or dePax. Strongly doubt anything more.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    I don't have any confidence that the lawyers can/will do anything to help us. Hopefully, Honda will value its reputation enough to do something on its own. If not, they are sure to lose many loyal customers. As I said earlier, this is my fourth Ody. If Honda doesn't rectify the situation, I simply won't buy another Honda.
  • 05toering05toering Posts: 5
    Honda and Michelin settled on Dec 29 08; terms not disclosed yet. Hearing w/ judge on Jan 14 09 to approve terms at which time we should find out what we get.
  • kevbelskevbels Posts: 1
    I've never seen a more blatant attempt to cover up a SNAFU (by any company not just an automotive manufacturer). I actually called Honda Customer Relations. They recommended that I swap the tire and wheel combo out. I called Tirerack to do just that and they said they couldn't help me.

    So, since the professionals couldn't help I referred myself to Edmunds' as well as other forums and forced the swap myself.

    I found MDX wheels 18' 5x120 bolt pattern with either 45 or 55 offset (can't remember) on Ebay for $400 shipping included. I called Tirerack and ordered Kuhmo tires for $600. I bought lug nuts from Acura for $85. I paid my tire guy (long-time friend of 25 years Matthews Tire Co. located in Indian Trail, NC owner's name is Jerry Rowell and Son Jason Rowell) $160 to mount, balance and perform a four wheel alignment. They re-used the TPMS sensors and valve stems by cutting a hole with a steak knife in the sidewall and removed them by hand.

    Jerry and Jason (704) 821-1211 in North Carolina near Charlotte did a great job. They got one of the PAX tires and cut the rest of the rubber off. They spent the rest of the day marveling and admiring the craftsmanship of the PAX system. They couldn't believe Honda could get a plastic looking ring like that over a wheel then mount the rubber around it.

    They both agreed that it was way ahead of its time and also that it was a total flop. The remembered Michelin wanted 5000 to upgrade their machines. Obviously they didn't buy it.

    Honda if you're smart enough to read this.....You all are the ones that flubbed it up! Sure, Michelin made the worst wearing tire in their History but Honda had to charge excessive and absurd amounts to mount those P>O>S> and repair flats at a cost of $40 a pop. Honda, you even ran a buy 3 get one free tire sale with a PAX disclaimer caveat. Michelin was willing to give recompense to dissatisfied customers but I never had one Honda dealer offer to reimburse me for spending 400 a year to mount tires.

    So now I have the greatest van ever made with a beautiful set of 18" Acura rims that are Poppin. My centercaps even fit. I'm PAX free. I feel better knowing that I'm not going to have to consider tire issues in my 05 odyssey for some time. I even got excited enough to give it a complete detail. I just wish I had the pictures to show everyone.

    For all you guys out there sitting on the fence not knowing whether to de-pax or not. Get it done, you'll sleep better knowing you did. I expect the quality and wear life of regular run-flats will get better and probably my next set (in 2.5 years) will be run-flats. Until then, I'll have a smile on my face everytime I drive by a Honda dealer!

    Kevin
    Indian Trail, NC
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Now that Honda is offering the Touring model without the PAX system, it seems odd that nobody has posted about using the new 08 rims/tires for a swapout on an earlier model. Is this not possible for some reason?
  • saelkinssaelkins Posts: 2
    You might want to check this out...

    http://www.libertylaw.com/current-cases-and-investigations/
  • saelkinssaelkins Posts: 2
    http://www.libertylaw.com/current-cases-and-investigations/
  • gary_maggary_mag Posts: 5
    Do you have any details as to what the judgment was this past Wednesday?

    I am part of the Class Action Lawsuit.
  • bukfanbukfan Posts: 4
    I'm in Ohio and having a difficult time finding any Honda dealer who will help. Even the simple question "will the EX wheels fit my touring edition?" Blank look and an "I don't see why not." I would like to know which OH dealer knows how to dePax.
  • edwardtinsleyedwardtinsley Posts: 8
    I live in Georgia and got no help from my dealer either. The service manager seemed interested in putting a package together, but was shot down by the owner of the dealership. He put it this simply... liability. The owner of the dealership said they were afraid they would be held liable for any accident that occured as a result of a flat tire. Saying that someone (other than the owner that demanded the run-flats be removed) driving the van might assume the Touring had run-flats and might continue to drive it with a flat tire, causing an accident. They said that unless Honda specifically ok'd a program, they would not help.
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    http://www.collegehillshonda.com/honda_odyssey_accessories/05_07_odyssey_exterio- r.htm
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    http://www.mddailyrecord.com/article.cfm?id=10486&type=UTTM

    Well, my prediction was slightly optimistic for us and slightly modest for the lawyers. According to the reports, $3 million in fees for them (I predicted 1-2), and Michelin will cover replacement costs pro rata relative to present tread wear. Which is what the original warranty provides anyway. Upshot is jackpot for the plaintiffs lawyers, Honda and Michelin are immunized and we basically get nothing.

    If these terms are final, my advice is that as many as possible should opt out of the settlement (I will). If 10 opt out they can crush us, if 1,000 do it that changes the game since each individual case costs $500-$1,000 for them to defend in small claims. In most cases these claims can be brought in local small claims court, no guarantee of victory but zero is what we have now.
  • bukfanbukfan Posts: 4
    Huge help! Thanks for the link. The video podcast on dePaxing is great! Unbelievable how my dealer says they have never heard of such a thing but the junk yard knows exactly what I'm talking about when I mention PAX.
  • bukfanbukfan Posts: 4
    I need a good resource for finding out what wheels will fit my 2007 odyssey. When I call Honda all I get is a run around. I have found 2009 pilot wheels...how do I find out if they will fit?
  • bukfanbukfan Posts: 4
    I called college hills honda this morning. They are great! A big hand to them for seeing a problem and working on a solution. Way better then my local dealers who deny that they have ever heard of a problem and refuse to give out any information.
    They have a new link that they just posted yesterday. When you go to the below link and see the dePAX kit click on new location this will take you to a list of honda wheels that will fit your odyssey. My husband is still pressing our dealer to do something. They will let us know Monday. I'm doubtful they will do much if anything.

    http://www.collegehillshonda.com/honda_odyssey_accessories/05_07_odyssey_exterio- r.htm

    Thanks to skap2 for this original link!!
  • Ed_paxhaterEd_paxhater Posts: 1
    If you live in the Asheville,nc area Mike Smith at Smith Family Tire can depax your odyssey. Had my wifes 05 done yesterday. Mike Smith is a Pro when it comes to tires and wheels. Went to the shop a few days before and order the tires and wheel. Mike called me on the 3rd morning on a friday. Told me tires and wheels were there. I had to work friday so, i told mike i would come by saturday. Arrived at Smith family Tire at 8:30 was leaving at 10:00 smiling, with no more pax tires on the odyssey. The wheel my wife chose looks better than the originals but similar in style. There are several to choose from in wheel tire combinations. I chose the 17inch because this close to what she had. The cost to depax your odyssey should be around $1000.00 depending on what wheel and tire you choose. If you wish to keep the pax tires on the pax wheels please tell mike. If your keeping the tires you will have to buy new tire pressure sensors (tps). If you dont want the tires they will cut a hole in them to retrieve the existing sensors using them in the new wheel. At no cost, if there working why not use them. If you want to step up to an 18inch wheel it will cost you more and there is not as good as tire selection. If your driving in the asheville area stop by and see Mike at Smith Family Tire 5455 Old Haywood Rd. Its off of airport rd and near the end of brevard rd in mills river. Do a search for Smith Family Tire you should find his phone#. Glad i did!
  • cdavicdavi Posts: 1
    Has anyone found a dealer or tire shop in the Chicago area that
    has depax'ed an Odyssey? When I asked my dealer, they
    acted like they've never heard of anyone getting rid of the PAX
    tires.
  • edwardtinsleyedwardtinsley Posts: 8
    Just wanted to leave this update for anyone still on the fence about De-PAXing. We took our first long-distance (300 miles) this past weekend on the De-PAX setup. The ride was equal to or better than with the PAX, but the best part was the mileage. We averaged approximately 2 mpg better than previous trips. It may not sound like much, but that's over a gallon of "free" gas per fill up. Our previous best average on this trip had been 23 mpg. This time we averaged 25 mpg both going and coming!
  • ghankghank Posts: 2
    Your De-PAX sounds like a success. I am considering De-PAXing my '05 Ody and wonder what wheels and tires you used? What sizes? What TPMS units? Any info. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. bevzgeo :)
  • edwardtinsleyedwardtinsley Posts: 8
    Check out message #1316 of this thread, I listed all the details there. If you have any other questions, just let me know.
  • cucrewcucrew Posts: 1
    Would you be able to post the name/location of the discount tire dealer in Atlanta that performed the conversion? I have a friend w/ the same issue, and was curious where you got this done.

    Thanks -
  • edwardtinsleyedwardtinsley Posts: 8
    I bought the tires at Sears Town Center Mall location. They mounted and balanced the tires for me. I did everything else myself. I bought the wheels on ebay. I bought a set of TPMS sensors from Hennesy Honda and installed them on the ebay wheels. After Sears mounted and balanced the tires, I brought them home and mounted them on the van. It really is very simple.
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    http://www.sfmslaw.com/user_documents/honda-settlement-agreement-090126.pdf

    $3 million for the plaintiffs lawyers. Pro rata 3/36 warranty for Pax replacements and $110 rebate for a compact spare. $300 rebate for a new Honda or Acura. Nothing if you dePax.

    Translation: For $3 million "our" lawyers obtained for the class trivial compensation in the form of a pro rata replacement warranty for tread wear, which is standard for most passenger tires anyway. However, this only applies to purchase of new Pax tires. And we get a whopping $300 off if we give Honda another $30-40,000 for a new car.

    So even the trivial benefit is only available if we keep forking over money to Honda and Michelin.

    If you dePax to be rid of this situation, you get nothing. Again, I urge everyone to opt out of the settlement, file a complaint w BBB and then file in your local small claims court. This is Honda/Michelin's worst nightmare since they don't want to have to defend hundreds of small claims on the same issue. May end up with nothing, but if you dePax that's what you're getting anyway.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    These lawyers are disgusting. They got nothing more than a spare tire discount for the class. Shameful!
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    What legal grounds do you think would work in a small claims lawsuit? I think you have to have some losses in order to win.

    Thanks!

    Wade
    De-paxed 6 months ago...
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    You're correct and that's why I said nothing to lose since we get nothing anyway. That said, a small claims process would typically work like this (and each state has its own laws and procedures, this is a generic summary that should fit more or less in each case).

    Basic claim against Honda and Michelin is failure to disclose material issues before sale of each Odyssey, in this case the atypical cost for PAX tires when combined with abnormally low average tread life. Given replacement cost of $300/tire installed, and average tread wear of 25K miles, that means approx. $500 annualized cost just to own PAX system. If average tires cost $100/tire and last 40K miles, that is a difference of almost $400 annualized cost per year. This is all rough averages.

    The linchpin will be each state's consumer protection statute. In simple terms, these generally penalize business conduct that is deceitful or dishonest. In this case Honda and Michelin had a duty to know and disclose to Odyssey purchasers the exorbitant recurring expense of owning the PAX system. Some consumer protection statutes are very broad and provide for statutory damages even without proving actual damages. Others are more restrictive and require plaintiffs to prove how they suffered damages and the exact amount.

    Damages for depax consist of having to buy new wheels as well as tires. That's not something any of us expected 2-3 years into ownership of a brand new car. Honda/Michelin will say eventually all new tires have to be replaced, 25K may be low but not unreasonable, and that buying new wheels is our choice. Since small claims almost never allows discovery, we cannot get access to the documents that would prove H/M knew the truth and concealed it. However, there is enough on the web to give a small claims judge to prove there is a widespread problem -- Exhibit A is the class action complaint and settlement.

    One advantage, oddly enough, is that each claim is fairly small. I plan to file for only about $700, which is cost of my replacement wheels and pro rata cost for new tires, since we did get 25K miles on our Pax. H/M may very well start to settle individual claims, since it costs them at least $700 just to have lawyers or corp officers go to small claims court in each town and city, spend 3 hours waiting and participating in mediation (which is usually mandatory before small claims trials), and their only defense is "we did nothing wrong, so PAX are a little pricey, just ignore everything the plaintiff says." Even without a smoking gun, most judges will ask H/M if there is or is not a problem w PAX, and what did they disclose about cost before purchase. So you do need to be prepared to argue your case.

    Bottom line, small claims is informal and unpredictable. Judges just want to hear a simple story of how and why you were wronged. If you're prepared, there's at least a shot winning since the average judge knows that no one expects to have to spend $1,000 every 2 years to replace tires. If the judge is pro-business/ anti-consumer, they won't care.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    As the owner of four Honda Odysseys since 2001, I think the Odyssey is the best family-hauler on the planet. I've gotten several friends and family members to buy in too. However, when the PAX tires on my '07 wear out, I won't be trading for another Odyssey. Period.

    Honda violated a personal trust with me and I will never buy another Ody. I understand that Honda didn't really have a choice about whether or not to litigate--the shysters make it impossible for them to do otherwise. Honda lost the court battle but we consumers still got nothing.

    If Honda wanted to keep a loyal customer like me, all they needed to do was say: "We may not have given you all the information you deserved when you bought our product. To make it up to you, we will install one free replacement set of PAX tires or we will de-PAX your vehicle at our expense--your choice." Had they done so, I might have bought another Ody next year (or perhaps a Pilot). Now, I absolutely will not buy another Ody and will buy an American product instead.

    Oh yeah, my next tires will be Goodyear (or at least somebody other than Michelin).
  • thelinuxthelinux Posts: 13
    Ok, I got my new Odyssey touring with PAX last week. I had absolutely no idea of problems related to PAX when I purchased it. So what do I do now?

    I am thinking to ask dealer to dePAX my Odyssey at their expense. Has anyone done this? Will this be even possible???

    If not, what do you guys recommend?
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