Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Meet your fellow owners in our Owners Clubs
Comments
Early adopters of failed technologies will get burned.
Krzys
RFTs were not new, untested, technology--BMWs were equipped with them for several years prior to my purchasing PAX. However, my dealer didn't share the fact that the PAX system is not analogous to the RFTs on my BMW. Specifically, shorter tread life, replacement costs as high as $2400, lack of qualified service centers and a shortage of supply were some of the undisclosed issues.
I bought my 2006 PAX-equipped Odyssey Touring because I wanted all the Touring's features and that was the only way it was available anyway. I lived in the desert Southwest at the time and traveled between Tucson and Phoenix regularly. RFTs made good sense in the desert--who wants to stop to repair a flat in 120 degree heat? However, my dealer made it sound as though virtually every Honda dealer and most good tire shops would be able to service my PAX tires--not true.
When I moved to the East Coast, we drove my BMW and Ody cross-country. The BMW had a blowout and we couldn't find an exact replacement tire for about 200 miles. That was bad and it caused me to question how far I'd have to go on the PAX tire if it had failed. Answer: no PAX dealers for over 500 miles along our route and that dealer told me it would take several days to get all the parts. (Not to mention the fact that they would have been closed for the weekend long before I made it there).
Since I moved to VA, most of the main PAX detractors are no longer factors. There are more PAX-qualified dealers, so I don't have to worry so much about getting stranded (at least during normal business hours). Costs have come down signficantly, but they still cost more than twice what regular tires cost. As to the tread wear issue, I'm hoping that Honda will do something like offer one free set of replacement tires to each PAX owner. Otherwise, I'll trade in my 2007 Ody when the tires wear out at about 35k miles. (As I said earlier, I won't buy another Honda if they don't do the right thing here).
IMHO litigation will yield about $1-2 million in legal fees for plaintiffs class counsel, and probably a modest discount (25%) for Pax customers to replace or dePax. Strongly doubt anything more.
So, since the professionals couldn't help I referred myself to Edmunds' as well as other forums and forced the swap myself.
I found MDX wheels 18' 5x120 bolt pattern with either 45 or 55 offset (can't remember) on Ebay for $400 shipping included. I called Tirerack and ordered Kuhmo tires for $600. I bought lug nuts from Acura for $85. I paid my tire guy (long-time friend of 25 years Matthews Tire Co. located in Indian Trail, NC owner's name is Jerry Rowell and Son Jason Rowell) $160 to mount, balance and perform a four wheel alignment. They re-used the TPMS sensors and valve stems by cutting a hole with a steak knife in the sidewall and removed them by hand.
Jerry and Jason (704) 821-1211 in North Carolina near Charlotte did a great job. They got one of the PAX tires and cut the rest of the rubber off. They spent the rest of the day marveling and admiring the craftsmanship of the PAX system. They couldn't believe Honda could get a plastic looking ring like that over a wheel then mount the rubber around it.
They both agreed that it was way ahead of its time and also that it was a total flop. The remembered Michelin wanted 5000 to upgrade their machines. Obviously they didn't buy it.
Honda if you're smart enough to read this.....You all are the ones that flubbed it up! Sure, Michelin made the worst wearing tire in their History but Honda had to charge excessive and absurd amounts to mount those P>O>S> and repair flats at a cost of $40 a pop. Honda, you even ran a buy 3 get one free tire sale with a PAX disclaimer caveat. Michelin was willing to give recompense to dissatisfied customers but I never had one Honda dealer offer to reimburse me for spending 400 a year to mount tires.
So now I have the greatest van ever made with a beautiful set of 18" Acura rims that are Poppin. My centercaps even fit. I'm PAX free. I feel better knowing that I'm not going to have to consider tire issues in my 05 odyssey for some time. I even got excited enough to give it a complete detail. I just wish I had the pictures to show everyone.
For all you guys out there sitting on the fence not knowing whether to de-pax or not. Get it done, you'll sleep better knowing you did. I expect the quality and wear life of regular run-flats will get better and probably my next set (in 2.5 years) will be run-flats. Until then, I'll have a smile on my face everytime I drive by a Honda dealer!
Kevin
Indian Trail, NC
http://www.libertylaw.com/current-cases-and-investigations/
I am part of the Class Action Lawsuit.
Well, my prediction was slightly optimistic for us and slightly modest for the lawyers. According to the reports, $3 million in fees for them (I predicted 1-2), and Michelin will cover replacement costs pro rata relative to present tread wear. Which is what the original warranty provides anyway. Upshot is jackpot for the plaintiffs lawyers, Honda and Michelin are immunized and we basically get nothing.
If these terms are final, my advice is that as many as possible should opt out of the settlement (I will). If 10 opt out they can crush us, if 1,000 do it that changes the game since each individual case costs $500-$1,000 for them to defend in small claims. In most cases these claims can be brought in local small claims court, no guarantee of victory but zero is what we have now.
They have a new link that they just posted yesterday. When you go to the below link and see the dePAX kit click on new location this will take you to a list of honda wheels that will fit your odyssey. My husband is still pressing our dealer to do something. They will let us know Monday. I'm doubtful they will do much if anything.
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/honda_odyssey_accessories/05_07_odyssey_exterio- r.htm
Thanks to skap2 for this original link!!
has depax'ed an Odyssey? When I asked my dealer, they
acted like they've never heard of anyone getting rid of the PAX
tires.
Thanks -
$3 million for the plaintiffs lawyers. Pro rata 3/36 warranty for Pax replacements and $110 rebate for a compact spare. $300 rebate for a new Honda or Acura. Nothing if you dePax.
Translation: For $3 million "our" lawyers obtained for the class trivial compensation in the form of a pro rata replacement warranty for tread wear, which is standard for most passenger tires anyway. However, this only applies to purchase of new Pax tires. And we get a whopping $300 off if we give Honda another $30-40,000 for a new car.
So even the trivial benefit is only available if we keep forking over money to Honda and Michelin.
If you dePax to be rid of this situation, you get nothing. Again, I urge everyone to opt out of the settlement, file a complaint w BBB and then file in your local small claims court. This is Honda/Michelin's worst nightmare since they don't want to have to defend hundreds of small claims on the same issue. May end up with nothing, but if you dePax that's what you're getting anyway.
Thanks!
Wade
De-paxed 6 months ago...
Basic claim against Honda and Michelin is failure to disclose material issues before sale of each Odyssey, in this case the atypical cost for PAX tires when combined with abnormally low average tread life. Given replacement cost of $300/tire installed, and average tread wear of 25K miles, that means approx. $500 annualized cost just to own PAX system. If average tires cost $100/tire and last 40K miles, that is a difference of almost $400 annualized cost per year. This is all rough averages.
The linchpin will be each state's consumer protection statute. In simple terms, these generally penalize business conduct that is deceitful or dishonest. In this case Honda and Michelin had a duty to know and disclose to Odyssey purchasers the exorbitant recurring expense of owning the PAX system. Some consumer protection statutes are very broad and provide for statutory damages even without proving actual damages. Others are more restrictive and require plaintiffs to prove how they suffered damages and the exact amount.
Damages for depax consist of having to buy new wheels as well as tires. That's not something any of us expected 2-3 years into ownership of a brand new car. Honda/Michelin will say eventually all new tires have to be replaced, 25K may be low but not unreasonable, and that buying new wheels is our choice. Since small claims almost never allows discovery, we cannot get access to the documents that would prove H/M knew the truth and concealed it. However, there is enough on the web to give a small claims judge to prove there is a widespread problem -- Exhibit A is the class action complaint and settlement.
One advantage, oddly enough, is that each claim is fairly small. I plan to file for only about $700, which is cost of my replacement wheels and pro rata cost for new tires, since we did get 25K miles on our Pax. H/M may very well start to settle individual claims, since it costs them at least $700 just to have lawyers or corp officers go to small claims court in each town and city, spend 3 hours waiting and participating in mediation (which is usually mandatory before small claims trials), and their only defense is "we did nothing wrong, so PAX are a little pricey, just ignore everything the plaintiff says." Even without a smoking gun, most judges will ask H/M if there is or is not a problem w PAX, and what did they disclose about cost before purchase. So you do need to be prepared to argue your case.
Bottom line, small claims is informal and unpredictable. Judges just want to hear a simple story of how and why you were wronged. If you're prepared, there's at least a shot winning since the average judge knows that no one expects to have to spend $1,000 every 2 years to replace tires. If the judge is pro-business/ anti-consumer, they won't care.
Honda violated a personal trust with me and I will never buy another Ody. I understand that Honda didn't really have a choice about whether or not to litigate--the shysters make it impossible for them to do otherwise. Honda lost the court battle but we consumers still got nothing.
If Honda wanted to keep a loyal customer like me, all they needed to do was say: "We may not have given you all the information you deserved when you bought our product. To make it up to you, we will install one free replacement set of PAX tires or we will de-PAX your vehicle at our expense--your choice." Had they done so, I might have bought another Ody next year (or perhaps a Pilot). Now, I absolutely will not buy another Ody and will buy an American product instead.
Oh yeah, my next tires will be Goodyear (or at least somebody other than Michelin).
I am thinking to ask dealer to dePAX my Odyssey at their expense. Has anyone done this? Will this be even possible???
If not, what do you guys recommend?