Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

jgraves · June 2005

My other gripe about RFT's is that in addition to costing almost twice that of a conventional tire, having to replace them twice as often (at least), they are next to impossible to find. My Toyota dealer didn't carry them and had to special order them: over 1 week to come in. My next set I had installed at a major tire dealer, who also doesn't carry them in stock. He had to special order them: over 1 week to come in.

I was unable to find a tire dealer in my area (Northern New Jersey, 25 miles west of New York City) who carries RFT's in their stock. They all had to special order them. Imagine being on vacation, you get a flat which can not be repaired and no dealer has your tire in stock.

Never again - I switched to conventional tires! And I'm loving it!

rorr · June 2005

"Imagine being on vacation, you get a flat which can not be repaired and no dealer has your tire in stock."

In which case I would simply replace it with a non-RFT tire of the same size, which you would have to do anyway if you had a standard tire which could not be repaired.

Of course, this applies to the Toyota 17" tires only since the rims for the RFT's are exactly the same 17" rims as those on non-RFT equipped vans. If you are running PAX tires, you don't have this option.

trj93 · June 2005

Thanks, actually, I just read the long-term test article on Odyssey that included this very scenario. I don't like that Honda/Michelin gave the run-around before Edmunds could get the tire fixed, nor that it cost so much more than a normal repair, but at least I know it can be done.

I still have a lot of work to do to decide b/t the Sienna and Odyssey. Keep the comments coming - they do help!

vgrinshpun · June 2005

What is the point of having RFTs if one would be forced to replace them with regular tire in order to not get stuck for days/weeks?

It is obvious to me that RFTs or not, any vehicle should be outfitted with spare tire/wheel. That is what I did back in 2003 - got spare for my Sienna AWD - and used it many times, while waiting for days to get replacement for damaged RFT tire.

The reason tire/car manufacturers pushing for RFTs without spare, is that they feel that otherwise idea of having RFTs would be much less appealing...

graygeek · June 2005

Some PAX facts I have recently discovered:

1) Using any other wheels/tires VOIDs the Warranty according to Honda Customer Service and May void warranty according to pg. 351 of User's manual. No comment about Canadian or Mexican Touring models having alternative wheel/tire options.
2) NO mileage rating warranty on PAX tires, i.e. 5000 miles? 50,000 miles?
3) Dealers will only replace PAX as tire/wheel combo for $800 ea.! That's $3200 to replace worn set of tires and currently no option to use standard Odyssey wheels and tires due to warranty.
4) No procedure to disable TPMS if alternative wheels and tires are used.
I consider these issues to be completely unacceptable for Honda customers.

oddcarnut · July 2005

To answer your question about being able to repair PAX tires...YES, they can be repaired using standard industry approved tire repair procedures. This means a patch/plug from the inside after inspecting the tire. Such methods are the approved technique for ALL tires.

Michelin has also licensed PAX technology to other tire makers, Goodyear and Pirelli among others.

oddcarnut · July 2005

Actually there is a procedure to deal with worn out tires if a dealer does not have the tire changing equipment to replace the tires. And it does not mean buying a new set of wheels.

haecceity · July 2005

Michelin has a "winter PAX tire" coming out in 2005 (see question 5 at this link: link title ). My guess is that these will be an option on the 2006 Ody. Perhaps this can be a help to someone looking for an alternative to the AWD-RFT on the Sienna.

Hope this help someone. As for me I am still trying to decide whether to gamble on the PAX.

paule · July 2005

I do not believe statement #3 is correct. If the wheel is not damaged then just the tire can be replaced. I'm curious as to who told you otherwise.

isellhondas · July 2005

It isn't necessary to replace the wheel, just the tire can be changed but it does require special equipment.

rorr · July 2005

"What is the point of having RFTs if one would be forced to replace them with regular tire in order to not get stuck for days/weeks?"

The whole point of RFTs is that one doesn't HAVE to stop right where the flat occurs to change the tire. RFTs give the driver the option to change the tire on the spot (obviously if they have a spare), or drive to a garage/tire store to either have the flat repaired or replaced.

All I'm saying is why go to the trouble/expense of swapping out ALL your RFTs when all you need (for your piece of mind) is a single spare?

joeb24 · July 2005

I implemented another solution as to where to put my full size spare tire for my 2005 Sienna XLE AWD with Bridgestone runflat tires. Since I bought the van last December, I placed my full- size, Bridgestone runflat spare (mounted on a full-size OEM alloy wheel) behind the third row seat on the driver side, standing it upright. I was generally satisfied with this arrangement, but always wished I could find another solution, so that I could again fold down the third row seat, and again gain the added room in the back.

I purchased a Yakima, Load-Warrior, roof top gear basket. It is an open basket with sides, not a closed roof-top carrier. See www.Yakima.com. It is 44"x39"x6.5" and fits nicely on the Sienna factory roof rack. I also purched the Yakima spare-tire carrier accessory for this rack. I purchased the gear basket ($261.) and spare tire carrier ($63.) from www.rackwarehouse.com, which gave me very good service, and quick UPS ground delivery.

It took me 3 hours to assemble everything and get the spare tire onto the roof. You will need a step ladder to attach the gear basket and the spare tire carrier to the roof rack. The hardest part was getting the full size spare onto the roof. The tire and wheel are probably 80 to 90 lbs. After completing the installation, everything felt very secure. You can lock the tire to the tire carrier, and the gear basket to the roof rack. I will also purchase a vinyl spare tire cover online.

I suspected that there would be wind noise with the added cargo on the roof. I took the van on the highway, and sure enough, at speeds above around 65, you do hear the wind noise. This noise and the fact that the MPG will suffer a little are disadvantages. Also the total height of the Van increases to about 82-83 inches. You can also attach a TEMPORARY spare to the spare tire carrier (an easier task no-doubt)

But, I do now have the ability to fold down both third row seats!

rktech · July 2005

...my oh my...what great lengths we will go to...anyway...Yakima's front wind deflector works wonders with their racks in terms of the wind noise they produce. You might give that a try...I added on to my bike rack setup and it made a world of difference.

rorr · July 2005

I noticed you stated you used a step ladder to install the gear basket and spare tire carrier to the roof rack.

Did you also use the step ladder to put the spare tire up there? How easy(?) will it be to LIFT the spare tire/wheel out of the basket if you don't have a step ladder handy? I hope you've already tried placing a spare tire up there without the step ladder...... :surprise:

weedshasta · July 2005

Thanks for the info on what roof rack is a good fit. I am also considering this. I have a full sized spare (not run flat) on a OEM wheel. I mainly carry cargo - hardly ever a passenger in the rear. I wanted the 3rd row seats folded down. I took out both of the center 2nd row seats. I then lashed the spare securely to the pins in the floor on the passenger side and covered it with a vinyl cover. This gives me maximum cargo space. (You could probably still leave one of the 2nd row seats in place and have room for the spare.) I can use the 3rd row seats when necessary.

isellhondas · July 2005

Someone must want a spare BAD to go through all of that!

I haven't had a flat in so long I can't remember. I think I would just make sure my AAA card is up to date before doing all of that!

joeb24 · July 2005

The spare tire and wheel was too heavy for me to carry it up a step ladder, then hoist it onto the rack. What I did was slide the spare tire up the side of the van, and then I pushed it onto the rack, after placing a protective cover on the side of the van (a folded cloth sheet). I, alone, will not be able to get the spare out of the basket without a step ladder. I will not store a step ladder in the van. If I get a flat, I'll call AAA, or maybe be able to drive to a tire store (the run-flat supposedly can go 100 miles), and hopefully somehow get the spare down in a combined effort.

joeb24 · July 2005

From comments made by others, I understand that a full-size, non-runflat spare tire is much lighter than a runflat, 50 lbs versus 80-90 lbs. So, it would be easier to get a non-runflat spare onto and off the roof basket.

joeb24 · July 2005

I do want a spare REAL BAD, considering the problems with availability of the run flat tires for the Sienna. I do a lot of traveling. I also have not had a flat in a long time, and my AAA card is up to date.

madabout1269 · July 2005

Well folks,i had the pleasure of dealing with my first replacement of my right rear tire on my Silver Pearl R/N.It picked up a screw at my local BJ's store and my wife brought it to my attention and so I brought it to Rick Case Honda where I had bought the vehicle,well everything went just as the warranty from Michellin promised,they ran out of them but found a "hatbox" which is the term for the wheel assembly replacement at a nearby dealer.
They had it delivered and the whole process took about 6 hours,the tire was not flat to begin with,but when I had attempted to remove the screw it started to leak rapidly so I left it in place,they took me back home so I could get to work and called me in the afternoon to pick the van up.I got the tires rotated at the same time which is now a problem because I now need to align the front end because there is a brand new wheel on only one side of the van,I only have 9000 miles on it since i bought it in November of 04.
All in all a very pleasant experience considering the things I have read here.

isellhondas · July 2005

Well, we are all different I suppose...

As long as you're happy.

weedshasta · July 2005

As a 60 year old widow who is on the road alone a lot, I also wanted a spare REAL BAD. I do have AAA and have not had a flat for a long time. But I don't want to sit in a motel waiting for a replacement tire. I want to be on my way and deal with the run flat issue when I get home.

ewt · July 2005

"because I now need to align the front end because there is a brand new wheel on only one side of the van,I only have 9000 miles on it since i bought it in November of 04. "

There's no reason to align your car after changing a tire/wheel.

camerauser · July 2005

Quote, "There's no reason to align your car after changing a tire/wheel."

How true. Also, most Honda dealers do not have the equipment to align a PAX tire vehicle.

isellhondas · July 2005

What are you talking about?

It doesn't take special equipment to do an alignment on a PAX equipped vehicle!

jjtrindc · July 2005

I've heard from at least two different '05 Touring owners who have tried to get alignment done, and they have both reported that special adapter kit is need to align vehicles with the PAX tires. This has been information gathered from both Honda Dealers and Honda Corporate. Indeed one fellow had to have his car aligned at a non-honda service shop and Honda USA ended up reimbursing him because he was able to show that several local dealerships were unable to do the alignment because they lacked the right equipment.

isellhondas · July 2005

I asked, and you are correct. It DOES take a special adapter to align Tourings with PAX wheels. I asked, and our shop does have the adapters. I would find it strange that all dealers wouldn't buy the adapters.

It's not unusual for newly introduced wheels to require adapters just like new and different tools are needed as new models are introduced.

This was a good thing for me when I was in the tool business!

regganae · July 2005

I am considering getting the Ody Touring, or I should say I was after reading all the negative comments about tires on them. I am moving to Germany and so I thought as I read your comments that if I had to replace these in Germany, which after driving on the autobahn and cobble stone streets I am sure I will have to, where would I get them and for how much? Would I have to wait a month or longer for them to come in if I order them from somewhere? German honda's are different and I don't think they have the same Odysseys we do. I would have to park my van and not be able to drive it till the tires come in? I am so glad I found this forum because it makes you think about things you wouldn't before. Thank God I got on here BEFORE I bought my Odyssey. I think I will go for the EX-L!

rsblaski · July 2005

Before I made a decision not to buy the Touring, I would check with Michelin as to the availability of the PAX tires in Europe. You might be surprised. I know that some Rolls Royce models use the PAX, and I assume that even if the Honda dealers do not have them, you might be able to get one from a European Michelin or Rolls dealer which would minimize the time it took to get one.
As far as the extended warranty given here, I can't imagine that Michelin wouldn't honor it in Europe.

rorr · July 2005

Yes, the Rolls uses PAX tires. There have also been some PAX applications of some upper end Audi's as well as Renault's (I believe) sold in France.

One thing in PAX's favor (as far as an Ody driven in Europe) is that there is much more history of vehicles being equipped with PAX in Europe than in the states. However, I don't know what SIZE tires were used on PAX vehicles in Europe and whether those vehicles used the same size tires as the American market Ody Touring.

Sylvia · December 2005

http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8deb5

Hundreds of complaints are now being heard from owners about run-flat tires. They wear much faster, and can be twice as expensive to replace than conventional tires. In fact a class action lawsuit has been filled against Toyota, as many Sienna minivans are equipped with this type of tire; and Dunlop, the tire maker.

mleonardo · December 2005

I think run-flats are garbage. I have a 2005 sienna AWD and got a flat on a major interstate HWY in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night with my wife and two small children. Run-flats arent very safe on a HWY with a 70mph speed limit. My tire pressure warning system failed to notify us of the pressure loss at 70mph and the tire began to disintegerate from the inside out before i realized it was flat. I had to pay $125 to have my new van towed to a tire shop to buy a non run-flat tire at another $120 because no one had a run-flat to sell me. I paid almost 40 grand for a minivan and I should have gotten a spare with it. Toyota should be ashamed of themselves for this.

gkkim · January 2006

That's unfortunate that you decided to cancel the deal on a great van. I've found many discussion threads around the web about this same issue. The PAX tires can be changed out, even on the Touring with TPMS. The transmitters on the wheel/tire can be replaced on the new rims that fit. I've also heard that this is done on Corvette routinely for custom rims.

user777 · January 2006

you realize, by virtue of the fact you have the AWD option, this makes it virtually impossible to locate a spare below the floorboard because there is a drive coupling the rear in it's place. would you have purchased the van if you had a spare you had to carry in a portion of the fold-down seat area?

mcase2 · January 2006

The class action suit pending in California specifically cites the high frequency with which run flats fail to run when flat. So, you are not alone. These tires a total disaster. I bet if Toyota thought real hard they could engineer some way to stow a doughnut tire on the AWD that would not interfere with its other features. Of course, they could fund the development of a dependable RFT and sell them at a reasonable price, but they chose corporate denial instead.

carthamole · January 2006

I love my '94 alltrac previa, but at 275K miles and a few more expensive repairs coming up, I want to get the Sienna AWD. After reading about the problems and expense of the run flat tires, I've definately changed my mind. If I got the traction control/VSC option in a FWD, would that be enough to negotiate the northern Virginia winters? In the past we've been slammed with a lot of snow, but not recently.I feel secure in the previa and can get through most anything. Once the run flats wear out, why couldn't you just get 4 conventional tires? Wouldn't that solve the problem if I really want the AWD Sienna?

heywood1 · January 2006

I love my AWD Sienna, and I have a set of run-flat snow tires on separate rims. That being said, I would say that a FWD Sienna with four conventional snow tires (Blizzaks, etc.) would be adequate in 97.5% of VA winter conditions. Just don't venture out during the other 2.5% of the time. I would still spring for the AWD. Because if you can afford the AWD van, you can (should) be able to deal with the cost of tires. Wait for winter's end, and drive a hard bargain on an AWD. It'll be only marginally more than a FWD.

subewannabe · January 2006

I have a 2005 Sienna AWD and have beeb happy to have the AWD in the snow up in the NC mountains as well as some really rough roads at the coast.
Clearly, the run-flats are a space saving solution necessitated by the driveshaft and differential for the rear wheels, but has been spun as a safety feature. The run-flat tires get sidewall punctures much more easily than regular tires, CANNOT be repaired, regardless of the size or nature of a puncture ( Read Your OWNERS MANUAL), are outrageously expensive to replace ( best price I found - $288 plus special mounting charge)and you will have trouble finding someone with the proper equipment to replace them. Plus, the consensus is that the factory Dunlops will get less than 15K miles before they require replacement : $1200 per set of 4!
The best solution Ive seen: When its time to replace the factory tires, get a re-conditioned 5th matching rim on e-bay ($75-100), get 5 new "standard" tires to match your particular needs, mount a heavy duty roof luggage rack from Yakima, put the full size spare in a tire bag and haul it on the roof. Make sure you also remember to buy a scissors jack kit . The roof rack and wheel will minimally affect your milage and it gives a rugged feel to your minivan! :mad:
A variation is to skip the roof rack and securely tie the 5th wheel behind the 3rd row when the third row is in use, on the flat floor when the third row is folded. I considered mounting a spare on a hitch-mounted bike rack , which will pivot backwards to allow access to the rear of the van, but it would always be in the way. The swing out hitch-mounted bike racks swing out of the way but they are more expensive (plus I already have two bike racks!)
In the meantime, watch out for pot holes...they are particularly hazardous to runflats, as the stiff sidewalls are more easily damaged by impact. :sick:

Mark

toombaru · January 2006

Do not by the Honda Touring with Pax tires.

I live on the Central Coast and need new tires after 26.000 miles.

The dealer sent me to the local Michelin dealer who said that could not help me........I went back to the dealer who gave me the 800 number to call who said that the Dealer was listed as a place to buy the tires......The dealer said no.

What a nightmare!

cccompson · January 2006

Don't give - raise holy hell. A co-worker had the same thing happen at 20,000 miles. All 4 tires were replaced free of charge. Unfortunately, he doesn't know exactly who ate the cost.

jcarli · January 2006

I've just purchased a 2006 Odyssey Touring, and had a BIG problem with these tires. The dealer would sell me a rim for $60, and new doughnut tire for $89, plus nut and washer to mount the spare in it's opening.

I will do this if no junkyards have a one. No full size spare here, just a small one to keep me going.

mcase2 · January 2006

Yes and no. Unlike the Ody you can swap out the tires and rims on the Sienna for conventional tires no problem. But you would have no spare tire and no dedicated space to accomodate a spare. Read some of the recent posts here there are some good suggestions on how to carry a spare, but they all have price. On the other hand, I live in New England and love to ski and I do fine with my FWD Sienna. I would like AWD, but I can certainly do alright without it. If you buy the AWD maybe you should demand the new tires and rims as part of the bargain. Who knows, maybe Toyota will eventually find a decent run flat.

rorr · January 2006

"...plus nut and washer to mount the spare in it's opening."

Mount the donut spare WHERE in your Odyssey Touring?

I was under the impression that the standard spare tire mounting space in the lower level Ody's was OCCUPIED in the Touring edition by some of the stereo equipment?

Before you buy a donut spare (from the junkyard or dealer) make sure you have a space to put it.

cccompson · January 2006

No, rorr, the spare tire compartment on Touring models is empty.

That said, I fail to see why anyone would want to carry a donut spare in a Touring as a "flat" PAX has greater range.

rorr · January 2006

"No, rorr, the spare tire compartment on Touring models is empty."

Thanks; I don't know where I got the idea (and I've spread it around before) that the Touring had something occupying that space.

Do they include a jack? If not (and I don't know why they would), the poster with the Touring who was wanting to buy a donut probably would need to invest in a jack too. Something to consider.

Why would someone carry a donut when they've got PAX tires?

Peace of Mind.

It's not always very logical but I wouldn't try to talk someone out of it if it keeps them from worrying.

mleonardo · January 2006

Yes I know that the rearend is in the way. Toyota should have found a different place for a spare. I dont care if its the swing out kind that mounts on a hitch mount. I have seen aftermarket ones. My point is that when they charge 40 grand for a van they should include this mount and a spare with it! I now carry a spare in the fold-down seat area on long trips. I bought this van because I wanted an AWD minivan and Toyota is now the only manufaturer who builds one. Well Chevy has one but it is too new for me to have any faith in. I hope this class action lawsuit gets some results because I want to be compensated for this expense. Its funny though, my van did come with a jack and lug wrench. I wonder that they expected me to use it for?

cccompson · January 2006

Yes, mine came with a jack. The subwoofer is under the front passenger seat.

Of course, the piece of mind is supposed to come from PAX itself, not a supplement. The fact of the matter is, though, that some folks aren't convinced.

mleonardo · January 2006

subewannabe, Toyota has been kind enough to give you a scissors jack and a lug wrench to go along with the spare tire that you don't have. Its stowed on the right hand side panel in back of your van.

minivanguy · January 2006

Just two weeks ago I've noticed that the air in my passenger rear tire was low,"at 29 to be exact". The other tires read 36. So I continued driving back and forth to work for 3days,"I carpool BTW".

So I continued to drive the van 360 miles in those 3days,"not including the days my wife drove".The end of that week I decided to fill the tire up with air. Which put the tire at 38. I was thinking that the change in the temperature was making the tire lose pressure. :confuse: To make a long story short I called the dealer and set up an appointment, almost a week later. My wife took the van down to the dealership, and the technician said we had a nail in the tire. Oh btw this is the only vehicle we have. So for about 2 weeks we are driving this van, "2005 Honda Odyssey Touring to be excact".The van ride was normal for the whole entire time. Atleast me and my family didn't know the difference.I can't add up all the miles I drove with the nail in the tire. The dealership replaced the whole tire in a little over an hour. Please respond to this post if you still have doubts or questions. I'll try to respond as soon as I can. "This van is great"!!!

mleonardo · January 2006

Why did the dealer have to replace the tire with just a nail in it? Was the nail on the shoulder or sidewall? If not, then any normal tire could have been repaired for alot less money. At what speeds were you driving on this low tire? I am just curious because I have had horrible luck with the bridgestone run-flats on my Sienna. A tire shouldn't have to be replaced just because of a nail. When my tire went flat at 70 mph I couldn't drive on it at all because it started to disintegrate at that speed. As you know, Its difficult to tell when your tire is low with a run-flat. And when the low air pressure warning system fails to notify you as in my wife's situation, you dont know until its too late. With no spare, I was stuck in the middle of nowhere. You doubt no more. I don't have any faith in those tires. We do have different vehicles though. Maybe yours is better than mine.

Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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