Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

minivanguy · January 2006

I can't give you an answer on why the dealer had to replace the tire. BTW they replaced the tire and the rim.I was driving mainly 65mph. I hope this helps just a little. I don't think my van is better just different.

low_ball_88 · January 2006

Minivanguy,

I originally wanted a Touring R&N but have read some threads here that it will be hard to replace the PAX tires since it is not readily available and it costs an arm and leg if you get a hold of it. That is really too bad.

I have also heard that you could replace the rims and tires later when the tires are bald with custom rims and tires. Only thing is that how will this affect the tire pressure sensors.

I have gotten a quote at invoice for this vehicle but cannot really take the plunge until I know more about this PAX system.

Help from anyone here is appreciated.

Thanks

jmurman42 · February 2006

I received this email yesterday from a customer of mine. Thought I'd pass it on to you all.

Hello Jerry!
If you need a testimonial about the PAX Run Flat system on the 2006 Odyssey here is a small one. This morning I got in my '06 Odyssey and the display told me I had a left front tire low air pressure condition. The tire was 15+ lbs low on the tire gauge, but did not look much different from the other 3 tires. I had a schedule to keep so I left Parkville and drove to Hunt Valley via I695 and I83. I kept my speed on I83 a little slower than normal, 65 rather than 75 and I stayed in the right lane as much as possible.

I fulfilled my commitments in HV and drove to Heritage Honda on Harford Rd. using non interstate roads.

The techs discovered a nail in the sidewall of the tire and replaced wheel, tire and all under warranty.

There was no different feel while driving the car with a "flat" tire, no pulling to the left, no ill handling, no screeching during left or right turns. What an impressive demo of the PAX system. See ya!

Tom

lux · February 2006

Hi,

I'm a bit confused as I always see reference to RFT's on the XLE LTD AWD. Are they on the XLE LTD FWD too? What about the XLE? We really don't want RFT's, but like the leather trim, DVD, all disc brakes etc.

Lori

cccompson · February 2006

No, Lori, the runflats are only on the all-wheel drive Siennas.

lux · February 2006

So does the XLE LTD FWD have a spare tire?

Lori

rorr · February 2006

"So does the XLE LTD FWD have a spare tire?"

YES.

All Sienna FWD vans, from the CE all the way up to the XLE Ltd, have spare tires.

ALL Sienna AWD vans, from the CE up to the XLE Ltd, have run-flats.

With Toyota, the use of run-flats has NOTHING to do with the trim level. The ONLY reason the AWD Siennas have run-flats is because the AWD drivetrain occupies some of the space where the spare tire is stored on the FWD models. In other words, Toyota didn't have room for a spare on the AWD models.

johnsmith · February 2006

Can the AWD Sienna rims take a conventional tire too? I thought I read somewhere rthat they didn't. Thanks.

rorr · February 2006

"Can the AWD Sienna rims take a conventional tire too?"

The 17" rims that are on the AWD Sienna are the EXACT SAME rims as on the FWD Sienna using 17" conventional tires. In other words, yes, those rims will take conventional tires. (Of course, you will then have to resolve the dilemma about either storing a spare tire in case of a flat or just relying on your cell phone/AAA).

On the other hand, the Honda Odyssey Touring (which is equipped with the Michelin PAX run-flats as standard equipment) uses a specialized rim which will ONLY accept PAX tires.

justntime · March 2006

First off i am a manager of a michelin tire store. And i am 1 of 3 people in the state that is certified to do pax tires. To anser the first question, why was the tire replace? I think the person who told whom ever it needed to be replaced to someone for a run for there money. Michelin tire co recomends repair on this tire just like any other, meaning any hole smaller than a 1/16 of an inch and not in the sidewall of the tire. It ran be fixed by patching. they do not recomened plugging it. To answer the 2nd 100 miles @ 55mph is what michelin recomends. Someone else had asked about after market wheels. Will they work? Yes, and the sensors can either be put into the after market wheels. Or, they can be taken out all together and replacd by rubber valve stems. When doing so you would have to go to your local dealer and have the senor gauge in the computer of the van turned off. iI hope this may answer any questions anyone may have had. I am not a big fan of the pax system from the work involved in it but is really is great for the wife and or the kids!!

rorr · March 2006

"Someone else had asked about after market wheels. Will they work? Yes, and the sensors can either be put into the after market wheels."

You are certified to do PAX tires?

I was under the impression that the PAX rims on the Ody are of an odd size (18.1" diameter) and have a special design in the wheel for the flexible support ring.

What size (width and diameter) of aftermarket wheels will work with PAX tires?

krzyss · March 2006

When using aftermarket wheels one would use regular tires - even run flats.

Krzys

PS Just my opinion.

rorr · March 2006

I asked that question because the certified PAX installer was stating that aftermarket rims would work with PAX tires (which, AFAIK, is 100% incorrect).

I simply wanted to know what width/diameter of aftermarket rims would work(?) with PAX tires.

krzyss · March 2006

If I am not mistaken PAX wheel has different diameter on inside and outside.

Krzys

haseebkhawaja · March 2006

Hi, I am new to this particular forum but saw a few messages that were related to my questions. I have a Sienna, 2005 AWD with >37K miles since October of 2005. Last weekend during an oil change the toyota people recommended to replace tires since they were all worn out and could potentially give way anytime. They offered a package of about 1250 dollars for all four tires with some warranty as well. This is for Dun lop run flat tires which otherwise cost me 700 plus tax and another 80 dollars for the road service program from tiretrack.com. This does not include the labor charges.

My questions are:
1. Should I take this deal from the dealer or try to buy them independent and placed by some non-toyota dealers?
2. Is it worth looking for non-run flat tires, then I would need to buy an extra rim and a fifth tire (this is will take the cost to about the same i.e. 1200 dollars)I would need to make some room in the van.
3. I understand from the dealers description that I will not be able to drive a 100 miles with a non run flat tire on a run flat rim (I have not had a flat in this time fortunately), is this correct? If yes, then non run flats would be a bigger hazard for me at the moment
4. I do love the idea of letting my wife drive this and not worry about replacing a flat in rural Minnesota highways.

I would really appreciate opinions from those with experience in these issues from personally owned cars or because this is your business.
HK :sick:

rorr · March 2006

"1. Should I take this deal from the dealer or try to buy them independent and placed by some non-toyota dealers?"

Given the cost difference, I would buy replacement tires at a tire store rather than the Toyota dealer. $1250 seems excessive to me.

"2. Is it worth looking for non-run flat tires, then I would need to buy an extra rim and a fifth tire (this is will take the cost to about the same i.e. 1200 dollars)I would need to make some room in the van."

One of the advantages of non-run flats is that (apparently) you can expect a longer lifespan on the tires. Given some reports I've seen in this thread on the Sienna run-flats, I think you were very fortunate to get 37k out of a set.

Of course, with regular tires it would be prudent to carry a spare, which (as you've said) would be an extra expense and require finding a place to store it.

"3. I understand from the dealers description that I will not be able to drive a 100 miles with a non run flat tire on a run flat rim (I have not had a flat in this time fortunately), is this correct? If yes, then non run flats would be a bigger hazard for me at the moment"

Wrong. On the Sienna, there is ZERO difference in the 17" rim used for run-flat tires vs. the 17" rim used by FWD Siennas. It's the same rim. Can you imagine the liability to the manufacturers if regular tires would fit on a 'run-flat' rim yet come apart in 100 miles?

The only 'run-flat specific' rims (that I'm aware of) are the PAX system rims/tires used on the Honda Odyssey Touring. These rims are a special size which will only accept the PAX run-flat tires. This was done because the rim was designed to hold a special inner supporting ring and they made it in an odd size (18.1") specifically to prevent someone from attempting to mount a standard tire.

haseebkhawaja · March 2006

Thank you Curtis, appreciate the timely reply. Just curiosity, how long do run flats go usually? Coming back to the topic, I can understand that they will use the same rims in this case, but the confusion is "run-flat tire will go about a 100 miles if I get a flat tire. Will the non run flat tire on a run flat rim go any distance at all if I get a flat?" I am thinking that answer is no, but I just want to confirm. Then another question, do you think places like Advanced auto part, autozone, discount tires etc deal in this kind of things? I agree, 500 dollars for labor and warranty is quite a bit. Besides that I also see that Bridgestone B380 RFT seem to have better ratings than Dunlop SP Sport 4000T DSST on tiretrack.com. Any more ideas, thank you again though
HK

rorr · March 2006

"Just curiosity, how long do run flats go usually?"

I'm not sure; it seems to vary quite a bit. All I can say is that there has been a fair amount of discussion (particularly in the Sienna Problems and Solutions forum) about the short tread life of the run-flats on the AWD Sienna.

"Will the non run flat tire on a run flat rim go any distance at all if I get a flat?" I am thinking that answer is no, but I just want to confirm.

You would be correct. Regular tires will destroy themselves in very short order if driven completely flat. But remember, these AREN'T 'run flat rims'. The only 'run flat rims' are those on the Odyssey with the PAX system. On the AWD Sienna, these are regular rims with run-flat tires.

"...do you think places like Advanced auto part, autozone, discount tires etc deal in this kind of things?"

I don't see any reason why not, although since the application is still fairly limited, the tires may not be readily available. One option would be to order tires online and have them mounted at a local shop (since they mount on standard rims, any shop should be able to mount them). As an alternative, you could check to see if they are available from one of the national chains (discount tire or NTB) and have them shipped to a local shop for mounting.

esto · March 2006

I've read all four hundred some messages in this discussion, but I can't remember reading one specifically detailing how run flats work. I have read that these tires have extremely stiff sidewalls. Is that what makes them "work"? When a run flat goes "flat", does it continue to ride on these very stiff sidewalls?

cccompson · March 2006

Yes, conventional run-flats operate on the principle that the stiff sidewalls will support the vehicle. As a result, some complain that they ride a bit harsh.

The PAX run-flats are different in having an inner support ring thus allowing, at least in my experience, for a ride that is comparable to regular tires.

haseebkhawaja · March 2006

I couldn't reply earlier because I was doing some regualr tire search on internet and in Sioux Falls (closest civilisation to my rural town). Tirerack.com is the only website where I could find tire reviews, any more recommendations?HK

mleonardo · March 2006

Don't trust those damn tires to get your wife out of a jam on a rural Highway! They left my family stranded on one and yours will be too! Carry a spare and change it if your tire goes flat. Run flats will disintegrate from the inside out on the open Highway. Don't believe the baloney that the dealer is giving you about these tires. I have been going around and around with Toyota about this. They tell me that the sienna is designed to use runflats. I want conventional tires and a spare on mine. They tell me that I should have only run flats on it. I run conventional studded tires for the snow six months out of the year and have no problems with them on my sienna. They can't get it through their thick skulls that Run flats dont take the place of a spare out in the middle of nowhere. I think they are in some kind of agreement with these tire manufacturers to force their customers to buy these over priced junky tires. They charge 40 grand for a minivan and couldnt design it with a spare. When I bought this van i was led to believe that run flats took the place of a spare tire. Boy was i wrong.

haseebkhawaja · March 2006

I agree I don't want to trust these tires, I am now looking into Yokohama tires for replacement, I found good reviews for these. I will buy a spare soon too. I agree with the disappointment part as well, I was told they are really great tires but they did not last long at all. After spending so much I don't want to spend over a 1000 dollars every 12-24 months. Appreciate your input though. HK

mleonardo · March 2006

Let me know how the Yokohama tires work for you. I will NOT be replacing my tires with runflats.

haseebkhawaja · March 2006

hmmm, I am hoping they work good, so if I don't show up on this forum for a couple few months, then they must be doing good. Honestly, you mentioned snow travelling and that will be a final test from my side as well, the current Bridgestone 380's had good snow traction though. They slipped only twice on icy days, but I was able to stay on the road still, yet again, they just did not last long.

vinnyny · March 2006

Even if you assume your van can limp home, you missed the key point: disclosure. They don't tell you that if you're out of run flat range, you're out of luck...They don't tell you that the tires will cost much more...They don't tell you that you might have better luck finding hen's teeth on a Sunday night.

The bottom line is that you can't sell something based on Safety and Security if it's only true under limited conditions. Safety and security are anytime, anyplace attributes.

mleonardo · March 2006

There are 50 very negative reviews on the Bridgestone runflats on tirerack.com. Thats just the people who own AWD limited siennas. Toyota has alot of pissed off customers and a big mess on their hands.

user777 · March 2006

for run-flats on conventional rims, i think you are correct w.r.t. "dealing with these kinds of things", but for the PAX system, i believe you have to have them replaced at a point of service that has special equipment and training to do the job.

user777 · March 2006

"When I bought this van i was led to believe that run flats took the place of a spare tire"

On a conventional vehicle, that conclusion would be true, but in an AWD vehicle, there *IS NO* place to locate the spare because of the drive axle to the rear differential, unless you place the spare in the cabin somewhere.

I suppose you could locate it somewhere behind the rear differential if you could locate the gas tank elsewhere. Personally I imagine for a mini-van, locating extra weight there compromises vehicle dynamics in some way.

I imagine also, placing a mounting bracket in the rear stowe area and placing a spare there would permanently change dynamics also.

It's a question of engineering and purchaser compromises isn't it?

haseebkhawaja · March 2006

It was an interesting day of phone calls when I was looking for places that could take off the Toyota run flats and replace them with conventional tires. Toyota dealers gave me a package of 650 dollars approx. (not including the fifth tire and an extra rim which was another 600-650!) other palces were cheaper for the tires but more expensive for labor or disposal. So I ended up going to Toyota for the immediate need to get my car back on the road and will look into non dealer tire places for the extra tire which will eventually add un-necessary weight to my van and take up some of the extra space for which I had bought the van to begin with. I am hopefull that the new Yokohamas (had good reviews) last longer now. I will wait to see their grip on the road in next Minnesota winters. HK

ronohashi · March 2006

Have there been snow tires developed to be compatible with the PAX system for the Honda Odyssey Touring? Am thinking of buying, live in the North, would like Snow tire capability.....

rorr · March 2006

http://www.michelinman.com/difference/releases/pressrelease11182005a.html

According to this press release from Michelin, YES.

Better check on availability, though.

ronohashi · April 2006

Thanks, hopefully will be available next winter....

cccompson · April 2006

PAX snow tires were release last October and members of another board have already reported good service from them this past winter.

heywood1 · April 2006

Yes, and be prepared to PAY! Owners of PAX-equipped Odysseys are a sliver of the tire market. And PAX snow tires are a small fraction of that.

mleonardo · April 2006

When you are designing an AWD minivan, you have a responsibility to *FIND* a place for a spare. Toyota has been very irresponsible in just throwing runflat tires on there to take the place of a spare. And why should people who want a spare for this van have to pay the dealers 400+ dollars for one when Toyota should have included one in the first place? Your right, it is a question of engineering (bad engineering) and purchaser compromises. It is my fault for not researching these tires and just taking Toyota's word for it. No one should have to compromise on a spare tire. That is compromising safety when your on an open highway. Lesson learned. Toyota's name is garbage to me and I will *NEVER* buy another one.

ckirk · April 2006

I had one tire unevenly worn and below "tolerance" at 28,500. The dealer said the other 3 runflats were at 50% and recommended replacing at least 2 tires and alignment. I read a post somewhere that some had been getting free runflat replacements from dealer. I went back to the dealer and politely asked that Toyota offer me free replacement tires and heard how I was lucky to have gotten 28,000 and that it was probably an under-inflation issue, but they took my request to regional rep. They called back 2 days later and said Toyota was going to replace all 4 Bridgestone runflats, gratis. I forgot to ask if installation was free also. Service suggested Toyota was owning up to the runflat debacle.

ascend · April 2006

Pax tire*******don't get it unless you are willing to
spend $1200 for 2 or $2400 for 4 tires since you have
to change the Pax tire with rim.
*****NO DEALER OR TIRE SHOP IN OUR LARGE METROPOLITAN STATE
HAS THE PAX CHANGER(TOO EXPENSIVE FOR THEM)

Even if you can afford 4 tires&rims every 2 yrs;
you Honda/Toyota dealer may only have 1 or 2 in stock.

Try to convince my wife to get the Odyssey EXL with nav
instead of the Touring with Pax....
but she just have to get her way again....
of course now I got rim when there's a nail in 1 tire...
ended up paying dealer $1200 for 2.
And since the thread wear out much faster than regular tires, we'll have to buy 2 more before year end.

Like others said, we are stuck with them till the end;
GET ANY MODEL THAT HAVE REGULAR TIRES THAT ONE CAN CHANGE
ANYWHERE.
And if your wife insist on it, better start saving for new tires or do what OJ did & get new wife & car.

cccompson · April 2006

If you paid $600 EACH for a mounted PAX tire/wheel combination you got taken to the cleaners by your dealer in two ways: you paid too much for what you got and you could have bought the tires separately from Michelin without need for wheel replacement.

mleonardo · April 2006

Honda and Toyota are taking people to the cleaners just by selling these vans to them!

heywood1 · April 2006

So are Lexus and BMW also 'irresponsible' for not providing spares in their cars that are equipped with run-flats?

mleonardo · April 2006

YES!!! If they leave their owners stranded on a highway like my toyota left my family and I.

petronio · April 2006

I have come to the conclusion that runflats are not worth the potential benefit. On my first flat about six months ago (to a 2004 Sienna LE AWD), the dealership replaced all four tires under warranty because of the controversy. My second flat happened yesterday (Easter Sunday) in the middle of a 90 mile trip to Easter dinner at my aunt's. No dealerships or tire shops open on Easter! So I can't just have the service station repair the flat and be on my way. Instead, one long slow trip back home on local roads, defrosted chicken cutlets for Easter dinner and $$$ towards a new tire.

Plus, the idiot lot didn't come on until I pulled off the highway, found a service station and parked because the van was violently shaking at 75 mph.

I will soon be replacing all the run-flats with regular tires and a spare.

Mike P.
Poughkeepsie NY

heywood1 · April 2006

Where would you suggest that Lexus put the spare in the SC convertible? On the back of the trunk? Most vehicles with run-flats are so-equipped due to space considerations. The AWD Sienna is no exception.

jojobird · April 2006

What type of problems are you having with your pax tires. I've had my touring since Oct-05 and have had a problem with the tires causing the steering wheel to shake back and forth from 60-70 mph. The dealer replaced 2 complete tire and wheel, but the problem persist. They rebalanced 3 times, but I'm told by by the tire manufacturer that this will not fix the problem.

Is this the same problem you experienced??

ascend · April 2006

Our problems is that no one in 100 miles radius can
take the tires out of the rims.
Michelin does not know where I can go.....
they all want us to get new tires with the rims for $600
since no Honda dealer can repair or change the tires
out of the rim

We had a nail in one tire.......should have been $10 to
repair for a regular tire; but ended up replacing 2 tires with new rims since no dealer or tire shop can do
anything with these orphan tires.

Got the latest word from Honda customer service today
suggesting why didn't we just get the other models without
the run flat. Adding insults to injury..... not just
acknowleging that their own dealers never tell any of
consumers the problems with the Pax.

The Odessey is also on its 3rd recall....

anyone want to buy a 21K Odessey Touring cheap?!

mwalters1 · April 2006

The PAX system may be a good thing way off in the future, but it does not work now. Three of the tire places Michelin reccomended to us to repair(replace) tires on my dad's Odessey Touring will not touch them. They were trained by Michelin, and have the special equipment, but have not been successful in getting them to hold air yet. All the dealers can do is change the whole wheel (if they even have one in stock). It took us the better part of a day to fix a flat caused by a small nail in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. Can you imagine how long it will take if you experience a flat in a rural area? We don't care if Michelin will fly out a tire and pay for lodging. A flat tire shouldn't take more than a couple of hours to deal with max. People traveling usually have reservations and schedules. One flat tire with the PAX system can ruin an entire trip. I have called Honda Corporate at least four times about replacing these wheels, and their stance is "Sorry, too bad, we will not do it, or have any of our dealerships help you". Now my parents have a 38,000 vehicle that they are afaid to drive. The biggest problem is the lack of disclosure on Honda/Michelin's part as to the inconvenience and expense these tires may cause, which I believe will eventually lead to numerous lawsuits. We now have 22,000 miles on these tires and they are worn out. Forget Honda. Just traded for a Sienna XLE. Take my advice and stay away from Honda.

mtdream33 · April 2006

I've read all the messages in this thread trying to glean enough information to make an intelligent decision about buying one minivan over another. Right now, it's between the Honda Touring, which my husband says No WAY(due to the non-standard wheel size), and the Toyota Sienna AWD model. Hubby won't make the decision, I will..but I certainly value his opinion.

Please, all that can offer suggestions and advice-I want it all. Let me tell you my needs first. I originally wanted the AWD Toyota as it was the only AWD minivan on the market, that I knew of at the time anyway. Reason? We are moving to snow country this year. Specifically Montana. I like the idea that I wouldn't need to change a tire out in the middle of nowhere with my kids in the back...and no cell service for miles, but man...when I get back home, or to a shop, how long is it going to take to get a new tire, if needed? People in metro areas are having a hard time getting these tires at times, correct? Are the Sienna runflats easy to repair, if that is all that is needed? Do I REALLY need AWD capability? Yes, it's Montana..it snows ALOT, but would FWD serve me just as well, not nearly as well, or what the heck am I thinking? I grew up driving in the snow...but it was flat land, nary a mountain to be seen. I did just great in a FWD vehicle back then. Course, I was also fearless back then, and probably very lucky. And there is the question of potholes. Montana roads are chock full of them. I read here that potholes could be the quick and fatal undoing of a runflat tire. True?

Now, the question of the Odyssey is not at all a question if enough people here tell me I'm crazy not to have AWD in MT. The Odyssey doesn't offer AWD obviously. I've talked to people in Montana and they think the FWD vehicles do just dandy, even better than 4X4s since they usually end up in the ditch due to overconfident driving; i.e. driving a huge four wheel drive seems to make people think they are invincible even on icy roads. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even on ice, AWD would be ineffective...however, if I'm actually IN a ditch, wouldn't I be better able to extract myself with an AWD vehicle. However, if I don't need the AWD, I just might be able to get a lower end package in the Odyssey that would suit my needs just fine, and no hassle regarding the run flats. However, I'm back to thinking "geez, do I really want to be out in frigid weather with my kids changing a tire on the way to taking them to school etc.? Lord, how am I ever going to make this decision!

If Toyota made an AWD without runflats, I'd be all over it I guess since replacement costs and hassle wouldn't be an issue. I guess I would just deal with the occasional flat tire changing, cold or not. I do however, understand the space limitations regarding AWD. Can they find someplace to carry a standard flat and not compromise cargo space?? I'm unwilling to mount a spare, so buying standard tires when RFTs wear out, would be out of the question for me. I'm just not going to go to that trouble, methinks.

I also don't like the idea of the expense when it does come time to replace them. Someone made a comment that if one could afford the fully loaded minivan, they should have no trouble forking over the cash for the more expensive tires. I'm here to tell you brother, I would. I worked hard for my money when I was working and just because I buy a full bells and whistles kind of vehicle, doesn't mean I want to spend the lifetime of that vehicle shelling out more cash for special replacement tires, or anything else.

So where does that leave me. It almost sounds like I've talked myself out of BOTH these darn minivans. I have driven both, and find I like both rides. Both have features that I like, and are very similar to one another in the options they offer and the crash ratings. One of them has a small edge in the crash tests, but I can't remember which one. Please, someone put me out of my misery. Can you make any sense of it for me?

What are these two automakers coming out with for the 2007 models...anyone? I haven't read or heard anything. Except for what one salesperson told me..."there won't be ANY differences between the 2006 Odyssey and the 2007 Odyssey. Believe him? Dunno. Other than that, if one of them made some changes as far as offering options for runflats, I might consider waiting for a 2007. Thanks so much for staying with my ramblings, it's late and I'm sure there are plenty of run on sentences. I can't manage being concise at this time of the evening. Again, I appreciate all input, unless you're going to be an a** about something. If that's the case, I can get that here at home, lol.

user777 · April 2006

egads is right.

i believe AWD will do nothing for you to improve traction. you'd probably fair much better in a vehicle with good snow tires rather than an AWD vehicle with poor tires. each vehicle presents compromises. with AWD and runflats, your choices are pretty limited at this point.

I've talked to people in Montana and they think the FWD vehicles do just dandy, even better than 4X4s since they usually end up in the ditch due to overconfident driving; i.e. driving a huge four wheel drive seems to make people think they are invincible even on icy roads. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even on ice, AWD would be ineffective...however, if I'm actually IN a ditch, wouldn't I be better able to extract myself with an AWD vehicle.

depends on the ditch and way too many other variables to mention, but if you like to ponder it, go for it...

if it were me, i would not drive in conditions which were beyond me or my vehicle. i would not be depending on AWD to keep me and my family "safe" or even keep us "safer".

if people are going off the road into ditches, it might be rather surreal to be watching and participating in that spectacle. even if i were in the most capable of vehicles at that point, my passengers and i are in unnecessary danger right?

in atlanta when there is a dusting of snow, smart people stay off the highway (even if they've grown up driving in snow). remember, it's no longer you out there with your vehicle, your skill, and your knowlege, it's all the others out there that are driving too fast, following too close, relying on technology without appropriate skill and experience.

i'll try to put you out of your misery: perhaps you need to consider moving to a different state.

may i make another sincere suggestion?... DONT buy a new car now. get where you are going and get good snows for the vehicle you have been relying upon (assuming it is reliable).

drive one or two winter seasons in the vehicle you have in the conditions presented to you where you actually live and work. speak with your new neighbors, co-workers and friends you make in your new location about negotiating the winters in your new locale. essentially determine what your *REAL* needs are *THEN*. chances are they will be quite different from what you percieve they are right now.

mwalters1 · April 2006

Most people who live in northeren states don't have AWD and do just fine with a set of snow tires. As far as the vehicle is concerned, I believe the Sienna is the better value than the Odyssey comparing equipment and price and reliability ratings. You might also have a look at the new for '07 Hyundai Entourage or Kia Sedona. They come with all the features of a Honda Touring or Sienna Limited for 5 to 8000 dollars less. They also have a perfect 5 star safety rating, plus, a 5 year 60,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty with free 24/7 roadside assistance. If you get a flat, or end up in a ditch, just call them on your cell and they will send someone out to help. I'm not trying to sell certain cars here, I'm just giving you some more options. If you DO decide you want AWD on the Toyota, I wouldn't buy it unless the dealer would be willing to change out the run-flats for regular tires and a spare. Hope this is helpful.

Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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