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Since the tires for either vehicle cost more than the norm, there isn't much of a cost issue here at all.
With either vehicle the ideal solution would be to purchase an extra set of wheels with snow tires and switch over in the winter.
Given your situation, if it were me (and I now own a Touring), I would buy the Toyota. All other things being equal, AWD is going to offer an advantage. And, perhaps most importantly, you'll keep your husband happy!
I completely agree. However, having spent lots of time in MT in the winter, you get caught out in inclement weather without any warning, especially the higher up you go in elevation. We have driven my current vehicle there, a Jeep G.C., and ended up almost over the side of a mountain. My husband was driving up the mountainside, hit a patch of ice in the shade, and off spinning we went. The temp was above freezing in the valley by quite a bit, but obviously, in the shade up on a mountainside, that doesn't matter. Again, nothing would have prevented that but more careful driving on his part.
I also agree that we shouldn't buy until we are there. That's the plan actually, but I need to make a decision before we take another trip up there in order to get the van I want delivered to the dealership I want. The people we have spoken with up there suggest a Suburu over anything else. Can't remember which model...maybe the Outback..not sure. Anyway, too small and not as practical for our purposes in hauling kids around. I think our second vehicle will definitely be one of those. All of the time we have spent in MT has been in the winter. We've been in a 4X4 Ford SUV, and my Jeep, which is not 4WD. I wasn't impressed with either one, lol. It's unfortunate, but no one in Montana that we have spoken with has a minivan. Telling?
Oh and the comment you made about people going off the road into ditches, surreal...quite right. I remember when I was in college, I was sitting at a stoplight on a particularly nasty day. The other light changed so my lane could turn, and no one coming to the red light could get stopped. I didn't venture out into the intersection as the other traffic was still sliding through! I watched, completely still, as it all happened in slow motion, a car and truck ballet on the icy highway..each vehicle in turn sliding right into their respective ditches. I think in total there were about seven cars that went off. Where I'm from, you go out in just about any weather practically since well, you have to...you have to get to work, to school, to wherever. Winter weather waits for no one, lol.
I'm going to do as one of the other posters suggested and look into the Hyundai and Kia minivans. I think I've decided FWD is my goal now. Really takes the pressure off me!!
Thank you so much for your great post!
If my husband wants AWD or 4WD, maybe he'll want to go get his monster truck for himself, lol.
I wonder though if anyone has made that deal with a dearlership for the regular tires on the AWD Sienna. It still puts me in a position of not getting exactly what I want since I have no desire whatsoever to either mount the tire outside the vehicle, or use the cargo space for storage. We'll need all of that, and the outside mount is something I really want to stay away from as well....so...
Given your situation, if it were me (and I now own a Touring), I would buy the Toyota. All other things being equal, AWD is going to offer an advantage. And, perhaps most importantly, you'll keep your husband happy!
LOL, my husband would appreciate that comment!
As for the advantages of AWD, are you speaking only of the advantage in traction? Since I'm no expert, I don't know if there are any other advantages...can you elaborate, if needed??
As far as not having any changes on the '07 models, how do you come by that info..I want to be fairly sure of that
Thanks, by the way for your response!
btw, unless mistaken, AWD will get you going perhaps better than FWD, but likely only if you have equally good tires for snow between setups (not likely). as someone suggested you might consider replacing all four (if you purchased a Sienna) with snows. consider the additional costs involved.
as far as i understand the situation, and admit i could be wrong, once you are going AWD isn't going to help you much if any over FWD.
couple the facts that for the AWD minivan: there is no spare, there are a limited number of RF tire alternatives you could put on the vehicle, their inferior snow traction compared to snow tires, their propensity to wear very quickly, their expense and the fuel economy hit you will take, and that technology looks less and less and less attractive to me.
Thanks again by the way. Your posts as well as a few others have really given me some practical information. This is what I was looking for...Sienna owners who have driven the AWD version in winter weather conditions.
it's nice you came to a decision, but you're basing it on essentially one sample point of one person driving the vehicle your considering in the state you're moving to.
it's interesting, for an information gatherer, that's sort of an unexpected result.
Welcome to the thread.
Actually, ONLY the run-flats on the Odyssey Touring require special rims. The run-flats on the Sienna AWD use the EXACT SAME 17" RIMS as the FWD Sienna. In other words, if one owns a Sienna AWD, they CAN run regular tires on the same rims if they so choose. (They still need to consider getting a spare tire and rim of course).
I doubt that a dealer will be willing to replace run-flat tires with standard tires. For one thing, the vehicle suspension system has been 'tuned' for the run-flats (to a greater extent for the stiff sidewall type, but there are also difference for the PAX) that may introduce liability issues if they provide a tire type different from what the vehicle is designed for. Changing the tire type yourself may introduce warranty issues, and may or may not introduce handling or ride characteristics that are unpleasant or unsage.
I agonized over the run-flat tire issues before deciding to buy a Honda Odyssey Touring model, which I will pick up later this week. In my area there is 1 tire dealer who has the equipment to de-mount the PAX tires and claims he can repair repairable damage, but he cannot obtain new tires so replacements must be bought from a dealer and brought to him for mounting. Paradoxically the 3 local dealers can supply only the complete wheel-tire assembly, the tires alone are not available to them.
I will buy a conventional 'doughnut' spare as the Odyssey Touring does retain the spare-tire compartment and comes with a jack and lug wrench. This way I can still get to where I might need to go, albeit slowly, after using up the 125 miles provided by the run-flats.
Regards, JEff
Honda and their dealerships will not replace the PAX system with standard wheels and tires even if you pay them to. I'm sure this would create a conflict of interest in their contract with Michelin. The only suspension difference between the EX-L and Touring models is the front stabilizer bar in the Touring is a little bigger. Honda dealers only carry the entire wheel assembly because the equipment for changing PAX system tires is too expensive and they are not in the business of selling or changing tires. In fact, according to my local Honda dealer, they don't even like to keep the PAX wheel assembly in stock because they have to buy it, and they don't make any money from it. According to an authorized PAX system tire dealer (which will remain nameless), the PAX system can be replaced with the wheels and tires from an EX-L with no consequences as long as you use the valve stems from the PAX wheels, otherwise your car's computerized dashboard systems display an "error" message and nothing else. Apparantley, he has changed out a lot of these systems for disgruntled Touring owners. If you intend to buy a doughnut spare to use with the run-flats, make sure you order one from Honda that is a replacement for the EX-L spare, and order a PAX system valve stem to use with it. You must do this because the Touring and EX-L have the same lug nut configuration and threads. Ordering this spare may be a trick as it doesn't come as a single assembly and my dealer couldn't figure out the cost much less how to order it. As far as the voiding the warranty goes, according to my Honda dealer, if you change out the wheels and tires the only part of the warranty you void is on the wheels and tires. Oddly enough, the cost of ordering 4 EX-L wheels and tires is about the same as just replacing the tires alone on the PAX system. Good luck.
All 3 of my local Honda dealers claim to have at least 4 PAX assemblies in stock, but as you say none of them have the tire-changing equipment and so do not have and cannot obtain the tires only.
My local Honda dealer did give me a price for a doughnut assembly that is consistent with the separate prices for the wheel and tire, but I think I will search 'junk yards' first.
My experience between now and when the PAX tires wear out will determine whether I replace them in kind or with conventional wheels and tires.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
JEff
I know this doesn't help in the event of a flat (when you're still stuck with going the Honda dealer route), but this would be an option to consider when it comes time to replace the tires due to wear.
Can't speak for the Honda but don't buy the Sienna AWD.
I currently owned a 2004 Sienna AWD LTD with RFT. Currently it has about 37K miles. To date, I had 2 flats and each tire costing a whopping $300 each.
Today, I took my van to my mechanic and he said that all 4 tires needs to be replaced. This is insanity at the highest level! The van is kept in shape all the time and the mileage are mostly city. The air pressure is also checked on a regular basis.
In retrospect, I wish I had knew more about the RFT problems. I would have NEVER bought this van with RFT.
I very much regretted my decision.
Five other close friends/relatives of mine have bought the Sienna since I bought mine and I have been able to convince all but one of them to avoid the RFT.
Good luck in your purchase.
Note: I do NOT work for any car industry and is just your regular consumer who is speaking out his mind.
Rob in Chicago
Best I've seen on a Sienna (owned by one of my staff) is 43K (and they are past the wear indicators).
Michelin apparently won't sell them to anyone who doesn't have the equipment and training to mount them.
Just out of curiousity; if you could locate a local Michelin dealer with the necessary tire-changing equipment, why not order PAX tires from tirerack.com, and have them shipped to the Michelin dealer for mounting on your existing PAX rims?
Interesting.
"Michelin apparently won't sell them to anyone who doesn't have the equipment and training to mount them."
So, why doesn't the local Michelin dealer who DOES HAVE the proper PAX equipment order the tires?
I know that.
But according to an earlier post from jeffreyh2 (#524):
"In my area there is 1 tire dealer who has the equipment to de-mount the PAX tires and claims he can repair repairable damage, but he cannot obtain new tires so replacements must be bought from a dealer and brought to him for mounting."
Apparently, jeffreyh2 WAS ABLE to locate a Michelin dealer WITH the necessary equipment. So my question would be, if Michelin sold this dealer the necessary equipment, WHY wouldn't Michelin sell this dealer replacement PAX tires?
Something doesn't pass the smell test on that.
I spoke with the service manager at one of our local Toyota dealerships and he said, as I think some others on here have, that if your runflats have excessive wear before the 36K mark, you can have all four replaced at no charge whatsoever-not that it helps you now, at 37K.
He showed me the service bulletin. Among other things(and I'm paraphrasing here) it said "because Toyota cares about the safety of our customers"....and also something like "even though tread wear issues should be the jurisdiction of the tire manufacturer"...blah, blah, blah. You know, the blame game. But anyway, for others, it might be worth something.
Good question, I haven't pursued the issue yet. I made one call to the tire dealer, which I found by looking on Michelin's web site, and they told me they can repair repairable PAX tires because they have the equipment, but they can't replace them unless I bring them a tire obtained from a dealer.
Then I made one call to the Michelin PAX service line and asked why a dealer who had the equipment told me they couldn't get the tire. The Michelin guy told me he didn't know, the dealer ought to be able to get them if he'd been certified. I didn't mention specifically who the dealer was.
One of these days I'll make some more calls to try to resolve the issue.
JEff
"So, why doesn't the local Michelin dealer who DOES HAVE the proper PAX equipment order the tires?"
If you mentioned the specific dealer to the folks on the Michelin PAX service line, perhaps they can tell you if that dealer is actually certified to service these tires?
However, all of this just reinforces what I've thought ever since I heard about this new system: PAX might be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but making the tire/wheel system a proprietary system requiring specialized equipment and limited availability makes it a likely market failure.
As was pointed out nearly 2-years ago in this Forum: Michelin has a history of doing this (proprietary tire/wheel systems) and NONE of these were ultimately successful (anyone remember the TRX tires?).
Interesting. I was under the impression that PAX rims wouldn't accept non-PAX tires. I guess the tire store also had some regular Honda rims in stock for you?
It is because of this that I gathered the part numbers of the items I would need (from EX-L model) to put the spare back where it belongs. The jack and lug wrench are already there. Honda did not remove these when they removed the spare. Why? – Thankful still that I don’t need to buy these. My biggest problem so far is finding the tire itself (42751-GYR-034). All the other parts are readily available.
I called Honda’s problem hot line to see if they can help get the part since it appears to be on nation wide backorder in spite of the fact that probably hundreds of EX-Ls roll off the assembly line every day with the exact part I need. They assigned me a case number and in a few days contacted me with their official response. It blew me away when the Honda rep said not only would she not help me find a spare tire, but that if I did find one on my own and put it in the van that it would “negatively impact” my warranty! After getting off the phone with her, I was in disbelief. I called back to talk with her supervisor to verify my understanding that Honda may not fully honor the warranty because I carry a spare tire!? They would not let me talk with her supervisor when I asked and instead transferred my call back to the lady who original said she would not help. When I asked her directly to speak to her supervisor she told me that she did not have one. (wow I must have been speaking to the president of Honda!)
If anybody knows how to purchase the tire part of the spare, please respond.
If anybody has influence inside of Honda, contact me so I can give you my case number and this lady’s name. You might be interested in hearing how I was treated (if the calls are taped). But more importantly how she represented Honda during the call(s).
Page 359 of the '05 Odyssey Owner's Manual states, "If you get a flat tire, never try to repair it by yourself, and never replace a flat tire with a compact spare tire." There it is - NEVER use a compact spare on a Touring.
On page 358 the manual makes clear that PAX is a run flat tire when it has been "punctured." It sounds as though you (and the earlier poster) suffered structural collapse or hit some significant debris causing catastrophic failure rather than a puncture.
That said, I do agree that your treatment by Honda customer service left more than a little to be desired.
Also, also am curious as to the cause of your tire failure - has anyone been able to diagnose it?
My wife said there was nothing on the road, but I figured a nail or screw is not visible at highway speeds. She just noticed the dash warning of low tire pressure, reduced her speed and soon the van started thumping, shaking and rattling. She also noticed the smell of burning rubber and that was when she decided that PAX was not supposed to work like this. I’m glad she didn’t continue and so was the person from PAX.
Not sure why Honda says to "never" use a compact spare on a PAX equipped vehicle. Also of note, they also say such a vehicle should only be flat-bed towed if the need arises.
If someone is trying to sell you a tire/wheel combo for $850 they are trying to rip you off.
Am glad to hear that you've gotten that much mileage out of the set as some have reported short (20K) treadwear life.