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I went on EBAY and bought (4) wheels and tires that came from a 2005/2006 Odyssey EX. I found a Discount Tire that was about 50 miles away from my house that had a tire changer for PAX wheels. So for a price of $45 for each PAX wheel, they would remove the tire from the PAX wheel and take the sensor out of the wheel and place into the set of wheels for the EX. The EX wheels and tires were then placed on my Touring and everything works just like it did before with the PAX, except now I had to get a spare tire to put in the back. Now when we have a flat we can go to almost any tire store to get it fixed or replaced.
I did have a flat with the PAX tire while on vacation in Kansas one month ago and after having problems with getting it repaired I had to deal with Honda and Michelin. Honda told me any problems with the PAX is Michelin's fault, not Honda's. I told Honda that it is 100% their fault, because they are the ones forcing us to use the PAX tire. It took me at least (6) phone calls, before Michelin would pay for the replaced PAX tire. I had to take my vehicle to a dealership in Texas to prove the size of the thread. Well I don't have to worry about this problem again. I also told Discount Tire they can have the new PAX tire or give it to someone else who still wants PAX tires. Also the flat I had with the PAX only lasted about 25 miles, before the side wall had a large cut in about 8 inches long. I informed the dealer that I had to drive through an old town that had a brick road. They said the tire was only tested on the highway and I was lucky that the wheel didn't get damaged.
Sandusky, Ohio - A village councilman from northern Ohio was struck and killed by a car while changing a flat tire for another motorist, the State Highway Patrol said.
John Reiman, a part-time tow truck driver and member of the Bay View Village Council, had been called to fix the flat Sunday on Rt. 2, about 60 miles east of Toledo. He had just removed the tire from a minivan when another car lost control. He attempted to run from its path but was hit, troopers said.
Reiman, 52, was pronounced dead at the scene. Authorities said Matthew Jones, 17, of Sandusky, fell asleep while driving before hitting Reiman and the minivan. No charges have been filed.
**********
As it happened, we came across this crash site about 4:30 PM Sunday while the accident was under investigation. Rt. 2 is a limited access highway with a 65 mph speed limit and it is the main east-west route nearest to Lake Erie. Sandusky is home to Cedar Point Amusement Park.
Just passing the scene, it was difficult to envision how the crash occurred as the late model Chrysler minivan had been pushed into the median and had fairly heavy left front and door damage.
I have an interesting counterpoint here. In my last job, working as a suspension tuning and tire development engineer for a large OE, I obtained and compared a Honda Odyssey Touring with PAX to an Odyssey EX - Leather without.
I was asked by brand X to investigate Odyssey PAX for a couple of reasons, one of which was to figure out why the JDPower Initial Quality Survey results were significantly worsr for ride comfort for PAX-equipped Odysseys.
Fact 1) A single "normal" wheel and tire weigh 50.0 lbs, while a PAX assembly weighed 75 lbs. That's a 25lb increase, per corner, in unsprung weight (the mass equivalent to bad cholestorol) 25 lbs a corner is huge folks, from a vehicle dynamics and ride tuning standpoint. Indeed the PAX Odyssey tie-rod ends had huge mass dampers on them, indicating that wheel "shimmy" was a large concern. You don't make a model-specific unique part like that unless you really have to.
Fact 2) Ride quality was noticably worse with the PAX tires, with more clomping over bumps and a general increase in harshness. These are not surprising considering: 1) the increase in unsprung mass, and; 2) The stiffer sidewalls of the PAX tire vs standard. The doughnut inside does mean that the sidewalls don't have to be as stiff as "regular" run-flats, but they're still stiffer than standard tires.
Fact 3) The jack and spare in the normal Odyssey weighed 42 pounds. Therefore, the presence of PAX adds 58 lbs to an Odyssey, with a 100 lb increase in unsprung weight.
Fact 4) Honda didn't do anything with the space savings, as an empty spare tire cavity still resides in a PAX car.
Dan
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Lucky for me, the dealer did not complete all requested repairs and I had to return the following week. I found the service manager in the waiting room of the dealer's repair area and when I recounted my tales of ongoing misery with these tires, he stopped me mid-report (which nearly everyone in the waiting room seemed to be listening to!) and said they would replace the second set of tires and bill them to Toyota.
The third set of run-flat tires were put on 7/26 and once the wheels were aligned, the noise and ride immediately improved. We set out for a vacation to Cape Cod happy to have new tires and a comfortable ride. However, on I-95 in CT, our tire pressure warning light went on. While the ride felt unchanged, within minutes it sounded as if a large motorcycle pulled up behind us, badly needing a muffler. We pulled off the next exit at about 6PM on Saturday evening, along with my sister who was riding caravan with my sick father and all of his medical equipment.
In short, there was not one tire place open that had a tire that fit my Sienna. The AAA tow driver was unfamiliar with run-flats and would not have been able to change our tire anyway. He suggested multiple tire dealers, some of which had emergency after-hours service, but no one had a replacement tire. So, we packed up both of my children in the car with my sister and father and took most of his medical equipment in trade and my husband and I had to check into a motel for the remainder of the weekend. On Monday morning, neither of the two tire dealers who boasted large inventories (250K tires!) had a run=flat in stock. Neither did any of the Goodyear/Dunlop dealers in the area. One did offer to get us a replacement tire in three days.
When the local Toyota dealership opened, we were lucky to find the service manager had a set of 4 in stock, kept for emergencies. He replaced our tire in under an hour and the cost was covered under warranty. It only cost us nearly three hundred dollars to cover the cost of our lodging and food while we waited until Monday to find a tire.
BTW--we did not puncture the tire on the road. We blew out a side wall. The service manager said it was probably a defect in the tire or else we hit something hard enough to crack the rigid sidewall without knowing it. No way! I watched the road right along with my husband to make sure he never hit a pothole. I didn't want anything happening to those new tires --for at least 9K miles, when I could start checking them for replacement.
I AM grateful we arrived safe and I am grateful the tire was covered under warranty. I am grateful my sister was with us and that my father was only terribly stressed out by this ordeal and not harmed by it.
I am furious enough though that I am spending part of my vacation complaining to every agency or individual I think will hear my case on the absurdity of these tires. Who can afford these, in time or money?
I will keep you posted on anything I learn on my rant for justice! rck/PGH
I never received a JD Power survey for my '05 Touring but if I had I would not have complained about the ride quality of PAX. To me, the ride quality seems about the same as an EX with conventional tires and, for whatever reason, the Touring seems to handle better than an EX. I will say, though, that I would not want the van to ride any stiffer than it does - it is close to the limit of acceptability for this 51 year old body.
That is great news. The only thing I might do differently is purchase the PAX valve stems seperately. Did you try to buy the stems from the dealer first? It may make the whole operation a little cheaper.
I'm going to do the same thing, but I still have a few months tread left so I'll use that up first (we have no long distance trips planned until Thanksgiving).
Keep us updated on any issues you have (which hopefully wont be any).
TPMS sensors/valve stems are designed to be replaceable and re assignable using an electronic tool that every dealer has. As a former brand X engineer, I used one all the time. Install new sensor. Mount wheel and tire on car. Use tool to assign the new sensor's unique ID in the vehicle's ECU. Done.
Some cars will "learn" a new sensor after driving on it for 30 minutes. That was true of Brand X, but I don't know what TPMS system Honda uses. Perhaps I'll ask my TPMS engineer buddies and report back.
HOWEVER: Non-PAX Odysseys do not have TPMS. The valve stem area of typical non-TPMS wheels are not properly machined to accept a TPMS sensor (PAX valve stem) which, unlike traditional rubber valve stems, have a metal barrel and use o-rings and a nut to seal properly. This is most likely why dealers are saying they won't do it, it'll void the warranty, etc. And they're not BS'ing you. Indeed Brand X had to change wheel molds to put enough "meat" in the valve stem area for the unique TPMS valve stem hole. I would be very wary of a TPMS sensor that has been installed in a "regular" Odyssey wheel. Leaks in the area seem likely, which makes this solution seem to run contrary to the whole safety thing. Coppell85, if you have any pictures of your EX wheels with the PAX valve stems installed, I'd like to see them. In the meantime, please check your tire pressures and make sure there isn't a slow leak at the valve stem.
If '07 Odysseys come standard with TPMS, then there will be plenty of TPMS-ready non-PAX wheels available to buy. We'll have to wait and see what Honda says when they release the '07 information.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
http://www.odyclub.com/forums/showthread.php?s=2a2611c071963313e603650e60dd6733&- threadid=33311&perpage=15&highlight=&pagenumber=8
From what I have learned, TPMS is only available on the Touring model. I do not believe that non-Touring Odysseys have TPMS. Honda's own web site is one of my sources. I'm going to see an '06 non-Touring tonight in order to confirm it with my own eyes.
However, it is possible to have a TPMS system that knows that you have a low tire, but cannot tell you which one it is. This so-called "low-line" system gets pressure readings from each tire, but because this lower-cost version does not have individual initiators in each wheel well, it doesn't know which of the four tires is low. A low-line TPMS display gives you a generic low tire warning, but it is up to the driver to check the pressures - all of them - and add air as needed.
High-line TPMS systems have initiators in each wheel well that perform an electronic hand-shake with each sensor each time the engine is started. Therefore, they know where each tire is, even if the tires were just rotated, and can tell the driver which tire needs help.
There are other high-line advantages, but I'm sure I'd bore everyone.
The question of which Odyssey has TPMS will be moot in 2008, as 100% of ALL cars sold in the USA will be required by law to have it by then. In 2006, only 20% were required to have it. I believe Honda was able to meet that requirement without putting TPMS on all Odysseys. They put it on the Touring model because you have to pair TPMS with run-flats of any kind.
However in 2007, federal law says that 70% of Hondas (and everyone else) will need to sport TPMS. It remains to be seen if Honda decides to make TPMS standard on all 2007 Odysseys in order to meet the federal 70% company-wide requirement.
In any event, low-line TPMS systems satisfy the legal requirement.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
The 2006 EX wheels I looked at are machined to accept normal rubber valve stems, making a leak-free installation of PAX Touring TPMS sensors/valve stems into them very doubtful.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
They cost $200 apiece, exchange. They don't have the tire change equipment (yet), hence the new wheel exchange scenario.
It would take "about a week" to get them in.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
I paid $31,000 for a 1998 Toyota SIenna XLE when it was new!! That's 8 years ago and that Sienna had leather and that was about it!
Perhaps the easiset solution would be if Honda offered a non-Pax tire set up for the Touring. This would alleviate most of this discussion and then you could arrange to purchase a Touring with PAX or without PAX. Unfortunately, that option does not exist.
The replacement cost is an issue, however, I look at the overall value and I will accept the fact that it may be more expensive to replace tires on this model Odyssey. I don't, however subscribe to the theory that the PAX system will leave you high and dry on vacation or whatever as I think that the odds of that happening are remote. It may have happened, but with the advancement of the PAX program I doubt it would be a common occurance. I cannot remember my last flat tire...
The Touring is just too good of a vehicle with so many great options not available on the EX-L that I would not hesitate to buy another one again, PAX and all! Good luck in your decision, these are great highway cruisers.
Yeah, no kidding. I was really getting irritated at the last auto-x I entered with my wife's EX-L. The van was SERIOUSLY under-tired and was practically screaming for a nice set of 19" gumballs....
:confuse: :confuse:
I borrowed the van yesterday to take 5 guests around the city to tour some restaurants. They were blown away with the luxury and ride of the Touring. One jumped in the back and immediately spied the AC outlet and plugged her Blackberry in there! I don't work for Honda, but I gotta tell you this Touring is one heck of a ride.
Staying on topic with PAX, the PAX system comes with a "drive-in" 2 year warranty. If you get a nail or have a more serious issue with the tire you simply drive it in and get a new tire/wheel. Once again, I can deal with the pricier run-flat replacement for the peace-of-mind and the fact that this "luxury" vehicle was such a bargain to begin with. Living in a large metro area with PAX options probably helps as well.
http://www.prnewswire.com/mnr/multivu/20983/images/20983-pax.jpg
I took it to Honda and they called Michelin. Michelin said that as a GOODWILL gesture they will replace one of them and I can replace the other one at a cost of $700 PER tire. You heard that correctly $700 per tire.
We LOVE the odyssey, but I am really upset about this issue. Note that Toyota and Dunlop (maker of the Sienna's run-flats ) already have a class action lawsuit over this same issue.
I am currently on hold with Michelin asking them where I can get just the tire. They are going to find out and call me back.
So, you might want to think about this when buying the touring model. The Honda dealer has a meeting with Michelin on Thursday and I am going to request that I stop by and have the rep look at the tires.
I was told $200 per tire. When I asked about mounting and balancing costs, they explained that those charges didn't apply, since they would be swapping out entire wheel and tire assemblies due to the dealer's lack of PAX mounting equipment. When I asked how long I would have to wait, I was told "about 1 week."
So if someone is telling you $700 per tire, you need to call another dealer - if you can. This sounds like opportunism to me. Check Michelin's PAX web page to find alternate dealer listings.
Getting an unmounted tire by itself will only work if you know where you can find a Michelin tire dealer with PAX-compatible tire mounting equipment. You cannot just walk in anywhere with that tire and have it mounted.
Mileage aside, as no clear consensus exists on that front, my chief beef with PAX tires echos your experience: those who have bought a car equipped with them are faced with a monopoly situation when they need replacements. Honda says you can't use other rims and tires, lest you void your warranty. No other tires but Michelin PAX will fit on the metric rims with non-standard beads. And you can't go anywhere but authorized Michelin dealers for new tire mounting, balancing, and flat repair.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
"I doubt very much if this technology has been at all lucrative for them. In fact I venture to say it has cost them millions with no return"
If Pax loses money, it is the will of the marketplace telling Michelin that Pax is not the answer. If Pax does not meet buyers needs, it deserves to lose money and be discontinued. Like TRX. Customers did not see why they should but TRX. They saved money and bought better performing tires by replacing TRX with new tires and wheels.
I was thinking the SAME thing. :confuse:
For some reason, I now doubt a few other statements made in that post.....
I like your story. It's funny and makes no sense at all!
This story is still crackin' me up. I'm thinking they should just pull the Touring model from the lineup, then I'll have an endless supply of leftover PAX tires that Honda would sell for 10 cents on the dollar... :shades: