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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Shipo, while I agree that the system rollout has been horrible, it seems to me this (or some similar) technology is here to stay.

    Honda's decision to force dealers to buy PAX machines is a very clear signal that these tires are soon going to be available on other models. A new Accord in '08 is a logical candidate to showcase the system and move it out its niche market.

    More generally though, automotive design seems likely to demand the elimination of the spare tire altogether within the next twenty or so years.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "...it seems to me this (or some similar) technology is here to stay."

    Do you mean similar technology over and above conventional RTFs? I would agree that RFT technology is most likely here to stay. That said, proprietary rims and mounting systems like the PAX system are going to have a difficult time surviving, IMHO.

    "Honda's decision to force dealers to buy PAX machines is a very clear signal that these tires are soon going to be available on other models. A new Accord in '08 is a logical candidate to showcase the system and move it out its niche market."

    Agreed. That also means that Accord/PAX models will be off my shopping list as well.

    "More generally though, automotive design seems likely to demand the elimination of the spare tire altogether within the next twenty or so years."

    Hmmm, maybe. I think the jury is still out on that one as well. From my perspective, a family vehicle with a competent suspension, conventional RFTs AND a spare of some sort is where my money is most likely to be spent. That said, for performance oriented cars I'm guessing that there will be a market for conventional GFTs for quite some time into the future. Why? Unsprung weight. Keep the tire mass down and any given vehicle will handle better, regardless of how good the suspension is. RFTs, PAX included, typically weigh 8%-15% more than an otherwise similar GFT.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Interesting discussion and I continue to conclude that like all things in life, RFT/PAX may not be for everyone. I'm in the camp of "they work for me". I bought this 2006 Touring with RES/NAVI brand new last May for $33,947(including destination charge plus TTL). For all the luxury items on this thing IT WAS CHEAP! I will drive it maybe 75k-80k before I turn it in and my tire wear appears to be headed for close to 40K. So if it costs me $1,200 for a set of tires, big deal.

    In the mean time I have 18 more months of free PAX tire replacement in case of puncture, blowout or whatever. I might have to break out the cheese for some of the whiners, especially those who don't even own a Touring model, yet complain and complain like it's a major thorn in their side and disrupting their existence. Get over it.

    Let's come back in 3 years or so and see if the PAX system or it's successor has been succesfully adopted or not. Then we'll know what's up. Ok, start cutting up my comments and start quoting me like you, hmmmmmn have nothing better to do, that being said.... :surprise:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Interesting discussion and I continue to conclude that like all things in life, RFT/PAX may not be for everyone. I'm in the camp of "they work for me".

    Hmmm, that isn't exactly the question I would like answered. Instead, what I would like to know is if you were given the choice of a 2006 Touring with RES/NAVI with the PAX system (with their extremely limited availability network) or the same van with conventional RTFs; which would ou choose and why?

    Let's come back in 3 years or so and see if the PAX system or it's successor has been succesfully adopted or not.

    I doubt three years will be long enough, remember, it took the TRX system something like 18 years before the last vehicle manufacturer finally quit beating that poor horse.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Actually, each PAX tire/wheel combination weighs about 75 pounds, approximately 50% more than normal.

    Conventional run-flats are long-term losers because their harsh ride characteristics (unless "family car" suspensions are softened accordingly). THAT is where PAX shines - delivering a ride relatively comparable to conventional rubber.

    I remain puzzled as to why Michelin went with unique sizing. It seems dreadfully short-sighted.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Actually, each PAX tire/wheel combination weighs about 75 pounds, approximately 50% more than normal."

    I was referring to conventional RFTs, tires only. That the PAX system weighs in half again heavier than a conventional wheel/tire combo is yet another nail in the PAX coffin. After all, unsprung weight is unsprung weight is unsprung weight. Take any vehicle with a suspension that is capable of dealing with all of that extra mass and I'll show you a vehicle with superlative ride and handling characteristics when conventional GFTs are mounted in place of the PAX system.

    "Conventional run-flats are long-term losers because their harsh ride characteristics..."

    Hmmm, I don't think that argument is going to fly relative to this discussion. Why? I've driven and ridden in several cars equipped with conventional RFTs and short of 9/10ths canyon carving, I would not say they ride with any more harshness than conventional tires. That said, you start searching for the handling limit on anything less than new/glass smooth tarmac and the RFT tires will feel more unsettled. The thing is that I cannot ever remember seeing a minivan being driven that hard on regular roads.

    Could it be that PAX tires roll a little smoother (most notably at the limit on rough roads) than conventional RFTs? I won't doubt that for a minute. Do they roll so much smoother as to make them preferable to conventional RFTs given all of the other shortcomings of the PAX system? Clearly for my money they don't.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Interesting discussion and I continue to conclude that like all things in life, RFT/PAX may not be for everyone."

    Interesting assumption that those against PAX must be against RFTs in general. That's not the case with me.

    I understand the benefits of RFT's. I don't like the PAX system because it is proprietary; once you have the PAX system, you MUST stay with the PAX system.

    Are you against the consumer having a choice in tire replacement?
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    The consumer has too many choices.... :)
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    It's interesting, shipo, that you haven't owned a PAX equipped vehicle yet you're dead set against the system (and you are hardly alone!).

    I've got 24,000 plus miles on my '05 Touring and have yet to come to a conclusion. Figured the pros and cons were a wash when I bought and still pretty much feel that way. Haven't had a flat (knock on wood) and the tires should last into the 40s.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "It's interesting, shipo, that you haven't owned a PAX equipped vehicle yet you're dead set against the system (and you are hardly alone!)."

    What does owning a PAX equipped vehicle have to do with anything? :confuse: I don't have to jump off of a cliff to convince myself that its gonna hurt when I get to the bottom. ;)

    Regarding my objections to the PAX system, there simply is no way I'm going to set myself up to get stranded somewhere if I have one or more tires fail that cannot immediately be repaired or replaced. That and I absolutely will not allow myself to be railroaded into an expensive and optionless tire purchase when replacement time does come along.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    What does owning a PAX equipped vehicle have to do with anything? I don't have to jump off of a cliff to convince myself that its gonna hurt when I get to the bottom.

    So far the ride is good and I'm gliding all over town because I have my PAX parachute and feel totally safe and secure. Those that don't have the PAX parachute should give it a try!! :)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I think you're missing the point. Even if, for the sake of argument, the PAX Odyssey has the best ride of all Minivans, the relative lack of availability for repairs and replacements means that that "parachute" of yours is libel to rip wide open some dark and stormy night when you're a long way from anywhere and have no one to turn to. At least with conventional RFTs, a stranded traveler can temporarily opt for a GFT replacement tire and be on their way.

    FWIW, I prefer a firm ride, hence the fact that I order the Sports Package on my cars, complete with stiffer suspensions and low profile/high performance tires. If the option is between a squishy PAX ride and a more firm and responsive ride, I'll choose the latter every time.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    I think you're missing the point

    Nah. I got my points all lined up. I might be missing your point, but I don't really need to bother myself with that nonsense.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Nah. I got my points all lined up."

    Yes, but all of your points are valid for RFTs in general; and not the PAX system in particular.

    Why not have a PAX-type of system.......AND the option to mount conventional tires should PAX tires not be available?

    And THAT is the point. Not that (in theory) RFT's are 'better' due to the convenience that one can keep going for some set distance after the tire losses air. The point is that with PAX tires, if you limp into a tire shop with a flat PAX, chances are EXTREMELY poor that the shop can help you.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    So you've looked into your crystal ball and know for a fact that you will never encounter a scenario like the one in the following post?

    roseyck, "Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans" #610, 2 Aug 2006 2:34 pm

    Think about it this way, you want to take the kiddos to the Bad Lands in South Dakota, you head out of the Chicago area on I-90 on a Friday night. Late Saturday afternoon you and your family are somewhere in say south-central Minnesota and your van suffers a blowout or puncture of one or more PAX tires. My bet is that you only have 50/50 odds of even being able to drive to a location that can repair/replace your damaged tire(s). Even if you to manage to get there, who's going to fix them before Monday morning?

    My wife and I both routinely make long trips in our vans and twice now over the years we've suffered dual tire failures due to road hazards (not to mention any number of single tire failures). To date, the longest it has ever taken to get us back on the road was a couple of hours, and that incident required two new tires due to severely cut side walls from a piece of junk that fell off a truck.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    The point is to avoid this(today news):

    http://www.komotv.com/news/local/4962941.html

    Ok, I agree that the PAX is limited, but seems like Honda is trying to help with the service-side of things and since I live in a populated metro area and my dealer has the equipment I'm confortable. I don't take a lot of long trips with the family in the van(we fly). I don't think that I am in the minority here as far as those that own the Touring and have PAX. The replacement cost appears to be coming down with the distribution of the proper equipment and once again I'm not concerned about cost as much as others on this board seem to be.
    I'm also tired of writing, so the rest of you carry on and have a great Christmas! :)
  • gotribegotribe Member Posts: 101
    I bought an 07 Odyssey Touring with PAX and got some good info from this thread. But for the past several days, we're just hashing and rehashing the same stuff. There are several opinions out there that just wont be changed--on both sides. I realize the purpose of this thread is to debate PAX...but its getting kind of boring hearing the same arguments over and over. If I'm alone on this, I'll just tune out for awhile.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "The point is to avoid this(today news):"

    Why do I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall?

    Yes, people die changing flats on the side of the road. Yes, a vehicle equipped with PAX tires would have helped the driver avoid that situation.

    That's....not....the....point.

    The question is: what is the benefit of PAX vs. normal runflats?

    I don't give a RIP what HONDA is doing from the service side. These are MICHELIN tires. Ideally, one should be able to get service from any Michelin dealer (of which there are far more of than Honda dealers). Ideally, the system would be such that ANY tire store could at LEAST de-mount, fix (if patchable) and re-mount the tire.

    You can tout the benefits of PAX all you want, but those benefits ONLY give you peace of mind UNTIL you actually have a flat. At which point (due to very limited nature of actually getting the tire fixed/replaced) you would have LESS peace of mind than the driver on regular runflat tires.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Done yet? Doubtful.

    The reason why we keep going around in circles (as I see it anyway) is because the PAX supporters seem to always talk about the benefits of runflats in general (no need to change tire in dangerous situations, running over something which damages two tires where the driver would only have 1 spare, etc. etc. etc.).

    On the other hand, the PAX doubters seem to want to talk about problems with SPECIFICALLY with the PAX system; not RFT's in general.

    In other words, the two sides are talking past each other.

    I already understand the benefits of RFT's in general. I also believe I understand the tradeoff's involved (greater unsprung wheel mass, potentially harsher ride, etc.).

    I also see the problems with specifically with the PAX system compared to other RFT's (proprietary technology).

    All I'm trying to figure out is what realworld benefits does PAX offer that other normal RFTs don't?

    And then the real debate WOULD be do the benefits of PAX tires compared to normal RFTs outweigh the PAX problems?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Very well said. Thank you. :shades:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • gotribegotribe Member Posts: 101
    There are clearly pros and cons here--some subjective and emotional (safety of changing tire at side of road). This sounds awful trite but perhaps we can agree to disagree on the subjective, and try to stick to more facts (price, availability of infrastructure, realworld mileage of PAX tires, realworld experiences when someone gets a flat, etc)
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    gotribe---Amen. Let's try to post if we have NEW info to provide.

    We have 14,989 miles on our 2006 Touring, and so far the tires are wearing evenly and the tread looks good. Would forecast at least 30K to 40K of use at this point. It is interesting that some are reporting replacement needed at 15K to 20K on 2 tires. The sidewalls on the PAX tires are more flexible than on traditional RFTs due to the inner ring, but consequently they may be more prone to tread wear if the tires are not properly inflated or rotated.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "...and try to stick to more facts (price, availability of infrastructure, realworld mileage of PAX tires, realworld experiences when someone gets a flat, etc)"

    Okie doke.

    Price: seems to be all over the place regarding PAX tires. Some report less than $200 just for the tire; some report having to PURCHASE an entire wheel/tire assembly from their Honda dealer for in excess of $600.

    Availability of infrastructure: seems to be hit or miss. However, it appears as though availability is getting better. If you KNOW that local availability will not be a problem, and you don't anticipate much long range driving, then this probably isn't an issue.

    Realworld mileage: also appears to be all over the map, with some owners reported premature wear. However, it appears as though this is due to rapid wear JUST on the shoulder of the tire and is not necessarily indicative of premature wear across the entire face of the tire (which begs the question of shouldn't Honda/Michelin have KNOWN about this issue during preproduction testing and fine tuning of the suspension settings?).

    Realworld experiences getting a flat: well, this kinda is determined by whether or not the van's owner was able to have their PAX tires fixed/replaced or not.....

    Other than tire wear, I'm honestly trying to figure out just WHAT the benefit of the PAX system is compared to normal runflats?
  • timconnerytimconnery Member Posts: 14
    I have already stated the advantage of PAX over conventional RFT. They do not de-rim. It is well known in my legal circles that other RFTs will de-rim. Wheels that will accept a conventional tire. A RFT with stiff sidewalls, you don't have to be a brain scientist to see the dynamics at play here. Why do you think the PAX rim is so wide at the shoulder and why do you think you need specialized equipment to bust it off the rim? You might be a self professed RFT "expert" but why do you think Honda, the "safety for everyone" company selected a new technology over the current one if it is better?
  • gotribegotribe Member Posts: 101
    Ahem..I thought we were beginning to make some progress with rorr's factual post--good summary. But then I read timconnery's nastiness and guess wer'e back to bad behavior again!! I'm out of here for awhile.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "It is well known in my legal circles that other RFTs will de-rim."

    I'm going to have to challenge you on this one. Please substantiate your claim or stop spouting this bilge.

    I've personally witnessed many Run Flat equipped 3-Series E90 BMWs at track events pushing the absolute limits of tire adhesion and making extremely severe avoidance maneuvers in the process. To this point I've yet to see a single "derim" event during a race, and I've got to believe that if conventional RFTs were prone to rim separation, that would certainly be the place for it to happen.

    Now, could it be that a certain make/model of RFT suffers from rim separation? I have no problem believing that that possibility exists, however, a narrowly defined failure such as this does not make for a blanket indictment of an entire technology.

    For you to prove your point, you're going to have to prove that ALL makes and models of conventional RFTs in ALL sizes are prone to rim separation. Your move.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • timconnerytimconnery Member Posts: 14
    they de-rim on a minivan when they are flat. It is very difficult to keep a tire on the rim when it is flat and you have a large steering wheel input. The point I was making was PAX is a better technology for the application we have been discussing.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Again, our perspectives are quite different. I've driven from Ohio to California and back three times over the years and never had a flat. Yet the safety of PAX is of value to me. And I understand that in so doing in my Touring that I might get stuck somewhere along the line. Of course, there are other things that could break on the vehicle over a weekend and also lay us up until Monday.

    You, on the other hand, have suffered dual tire failures twice on trips and see the things the other way.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Again, our perspectives are quite different. I've driven from Ohio to California and back three times over the years and never had a flat."

    Over the years I've made literally dozens of trips between the left coast and some point east of the Mississippi, and I don't think I've ever had a flat on any of those trips. Well, not in a car at least, I rode my bicycle from San Diego to Detroit in 1974 and got lots of flats on that trip.

    Thinking about this further, I had a simultaneous 4-Flat event near my (then) home in Chicago when I ran over some construction debris in the Belmont Harbor area, and other than that, I don't think I've ever had a car tire go flat outside of the New York Metro area or New England. I moved east fourteen years ago and between my wife and I, we've literally had dozens of flats, most of which were near our home, however, the two separate 2-flat events were on trips and a fair distance from anywhere (parts of New England are fairly unpopulated).

    For the slashed sidewall two tire failure that I mentioned in a previous post, had I had the PAX system on that car, I would most certainly have been stranded for at least a day as no tire, GFT, RFT or PAX would have survived the slashing. The other twin failure occurred after running over a board with nails in it that fell from the pickup truck in front of me. That might very well have been a moment where RFTs of some sort would have bailed me out, however, I saw the sun glint off the nails just before running over the board. I immediately pulled off the highway and as luck would have it, found a tire store right at the end of the ramp. When I got out of the van I could hear hissing from both left side tires. By the time the folks from the shop got out to my car, both tires were already flat. Fifty bucks and 30 minutes and I was back on the road.

    Getting back to the crux of the matter, other than the very dubious claims made by timconnery, I have yet to see anything that would make me choose a PAX equipped vehicle over one with conventional RFTs.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    they de-rim on a minivan when they are flat. It is very difficult to keep a tire on the rim when it is flat and you have a large steering wheel input. The point I was making was PAX is a better technology for the application we have been discussing.

    Ahhh, the plot thickens. They allegedly derim only when mounted on a minivan and driven flat. Now, more to the point, are you claiming that ALL makes, models and sizes of conventional RFTs will derim if driven when flat on a minivan? I'm thinking that is unlikely. Please be more specific as to which brand(s), model(s) and size(s) you know for a fact have suffered rim separation.

    The ball's back in your court.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • stuman168stuman168 Member Posts: 27
    I remain puzzled as to why Michelin went with unique sizing. It seems dreadfully short-sighted

    This is for safety reason. this way it's impossible for people to put regular tire onto PAX design wheel :shades:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    This is for safety reason. this way it's impossible for people to put regular tire onto PAX design wheel.

    What's so safe about that? I want regular tires on my cars.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • stuman168stuman168 Member Posts: 27
    well I am in a market for a minivan and ody touring has all feature we want however it comes with PAX tire which been around for few years but hardly mainstream ( In US, it was previously only available on Roll royce phantom). I read on different forum including odyseyclub, VTEC.net epinions. Initially, there is a lot of dissatisfaction with PAX because of treadwear, cost of replacement.
    Like any new technology it takes a while before it catches on. Honda and michelin are aware of the issue and had been increasing the capability of the dealership by making them purchasing the PAX tire changer. This will reduce the cost of replacement ( there is no need to replace with the new tire /wheel combo anymore which costing around $600 for each tire/wheel) and I looked up the michelin website. they have pax system dealer locator.
    it looks like there are more and more tire shop has the capability ( I would still want to confirm these before buying the touring) here is the website
    link title

    While there are few different concept for RFT. there is no perfect system yet. each system has it's short coming.
    tirerack has a good overview
    link title

    As far as the treadwear it may varies because people driving habit are different. it'll wear quicker on someone who like to turn their steeringwheel while the car is stationary, driving more in the city.

    I also found a site with a good overview of PAX tire. Hopefully it'll help our understanding of PAX tire like people who's still on the fence regarding the PAX technology.

    link title

    I have driven the 2006 ody touring and 2006 sienna limited AWD. both equip with RFT but differnt technology. Sienna with Dunlop DSST (self supporting) The ride actually not too harsh. I did not compare it with limited with out RFT.
    Toyota suspension are much softer than ody so the ride feels OK. On the other hand, Honda's ride is always firmer compared to toyota so I guess PAX system would be a better choice

    Shippo I undestand your view about your frustration why PAX system only comes with metric system tire 460 mm or 17.5 inch wheel. THe answer again for safety. Because the wheel design are different, it's not made for conventional tire. If it is in 17 or 18 inches there will be some one out there who will disregard all the warning and go ahead install regular tire. Guess what, in our litigous society, it's just put unnecessary liability to Honda and Michelin.

    As for me, I need a minivan but I'll probably can wait for another 6 months. I am leaning toward odyssey but I would like to know whether Honda will stich with PAX on 2008 ody when they will have some minor changes.

    New technology comes with a price. PAX is more expensive to replace because there is no competition for michelin. But if it's 200 for tire and 30 for installation. it's not bad. yeah $80 more expensive per tire for not worrying about changing tire is not too bad.
    The increase unsprung weight (25 lb heavier for each tire/wheel)is nore of a concern to me. Yeah handling will suffer but in a minivan we maynot notice it as much. I do more concern about it's effect on the steering system for 50 lb addtional weight. But so far there is not much complain from touring owner other than tire wear, more expensive replacement cost and availability.

    So let's eduacte each other so we can make good purchase decision

    peace
    Stuman
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    i think the "let's educate each other" is a good plan. ultimately the value someone sees in a technology will be different depending on who you're speaking with.

    for me - i don't own a vehicle with RFT or PAX technology tires, and today wouldn't value either technology, not at their current price points anyway.

    what i would opt for and would perhaps value as a new vehicle purchaser (or aftermarket product purchase) is some form of reliable tire pressure monitoring that would not force me into any one particular brand tire, rim, size, yet would enhance my situational awareness.

    i know though there is no substitute for a look-around before and after each drive.

    so maybe you guys might have a shoot-out on active pressure probes vs. wheel speed detection technology. that's the only aspect of the bigger technology debate that i value. :shades:
  • krzysskrzyss Member Posts: 849
    it may have not detected "4 tire going flat" adventure by shipo.

    Also if all tires are underinflated (temperature drop for example) it will fail too.

    If I am going to have one (it is mandated so I WILL have one) I will choose direct pressure measuring system.

    Krzys
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    I remain puzzled as to why Michelin went with unique sizing. It seems dreadfully short-sighted.

    The unique sizing is necessary because of the way PAX tires are mounted and dismounted, and the way the support ring slides on and off. The outer and inner rim diameters have to be different from each other. And for PAX to work the way it does, the beads have to be totally different from regular ones. So even if the rims were straight 16 or 17-inchers, a standard tire couldn't be mounted. Its just as well that they chose metric -- it makes it less likely that an unknowing tire store would try to force standard tires on.

    I was at SEMA recently, and met a tire mounting equipment rep who was showing off a PAX-capable machine. He mounted and dismounted a Honda Odyssey PAX tire while I watched.

    I've mounted many tires myself, using the newest standard machines, but I can tell you that the PAX procedure is a very complicated process, and would be hard to explain in text. I can see why Michelin insists on special training and dealer certification. In short, the beads are twisted on, rather than stretched over a lip. There's a little plastic shim you have to use, and the rollers have to be in just the right spot and of the right shape. The plastic support ring has to come off and go back on during the process.

    The difficulty is the same whether a new tire is being changed or a flat is being repaired. You have to mount and dismount in either case.

    The $14~17k machine, with pre-programed PAX dimensions and specialized rollers, would be a necessity, in my opinion. I wouldn't want to struggle with a $3,500 upgrade to a standard machine that would lack the automation necessary to do the job efficiently and without swearing.

    I was surprised to learn that a special gel must be spread around the inside of the tire. Not for mounting lubrication, but to lubricate the tire against the support ring after the tire goes flat and starts rubbing against the ring. If it is left out or improperly applied (there's a special spreader tool too) then the 100 mile run flat distance is impossible.

    The rep told me that Honda/Acura intends to have all dealers equipped and trained to mount and dismount PAX tires by the end of 2006, eliminating the need for the exchange program. We'll see.

    He also told me that Michelin tire dealers can only become certified if they meet certain conditions. He said the big Michelin dealer chains are all set or are in the process of gearing up. However, smaller independents might balk at the requirements: They have to have the right sort of machine, complete the training, and agree to keep a certain number of PAX tires (and the gel, and the shims, and a spare support ring or two) on hand or warehoused very close by. I was not able to talk with Michelin to confirm this, but plan to do so.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    tirerack has a good overview...

    Tirerack's overview has one flaw. Self-Sealing tires are not run-flats. You cannot drive on them with no air in the tire. Zero-pressure running capability is what defines an RFT.

    Yes, they do is prevent some leaks. If you drive over a small nail, a substance inside the tire is drawn into the hole by the outrush or air, sealing it.

    But they are not run-flats.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    It may have not detected "4 tire going flat" adventure by shipo.

    Also if all tires are under inflated (temperature drop for example) it will fail too.

    Exactly. I've done TPMS certification testing, and the federal government's test procedure includes a 4-flat tire scenario where all four tires are set 25% below the placard pressure.

    The government standard is "technology neutral", but I don't know how a wheel speed sensor system would pass this part of the requirement. I expect every OE will go with direct.

    If I am going to have one (it is mandated so I WILL have one) I will choose direct pressure measuring system.

    Choosing is difficult, as its hard to know what the car has by looking at it. Metal valve stems used to be a dead giveaway, but I saw rubber ones with direct sensors behind them at SEMA.

    By 2008, all cars and light trucks will have to pass the 4-low tire scenario, so you'll be covered, however the OE does it. Any new applications in '07 probably do too.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    i'm thinking vehicle speed detection methods would be problematic to implement the 4-wheel failure scenario sure, but then all tires being low isn't the sort of thing one would really be looking for situation awareness on. my thinking is it's the one or two tire low scenarios that is where the value is.

    anyway, i thought one of the potential issues with a vehicle speed sensor differential detection method is that if you had a RFT mounted, the tire wouldn't change circumference significantly enough to cause the discrepancy to have a reliable alerting mechanism. :surprise:
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Thanks for a most informative post, actualsize. Another thing that's different about a PAX rim is its lip - its configuration is totally unlike that on a conventional wheel

    I guess that given that there is no possible way that a conventional tire could fit on a PAX rim, the fact that the rim is a unique size matters not at all.
  • rsh545rsh545 Member Posts: 4
    I have a 2005 Honda Oddesey Touring. Love the van and everything about it with exception of the Pax system. My issue is that when the temperature drops more that ten degrees my sensors on the dash indicate a low pressure reading. To correct this issue I need to find a gas station that has air available,(I live in the Chicago area when the temps drop the air lines at the gas stations are usually frozen) which makes the Pax system a real pain. I have called Honda and Michelin and have basically gotten a consistent answer from both DEAL WITH IT!!!. I know that the system is a great idea for various reasons, however I feel that I am stuck, no option to turn the system off and good luck trying to completely change the entire system (wheels and tires). Had I known what a pain the system was I would have not purchased a touring it is just not worth the aggravation.
  • gotribegotribe Member Posts: 101
    Something's wrong somewhere--my understanding is that the system doesnt trigger "low pressure" until its about 25% below recommended pressure--about 26 lbs or so. So long as you're setting your tire pressure at even 33lbs, it would take a temperature drop of over 60 degrees to hit the "trigger" at 26 lbs--thats cause you lose 1 lb. of presssure for roughly every 9 degrees of temperature. Either you're not setting the pressure high enough, or there's something wrong with your tire pressure monitoring system. My Odyssey Touring has no such problems. Hope you can get this resolve.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    i'd have to agree. i'd also wonder if one should drive on the tire a bit with the low pressure warning until they warm up then reset the system. wouldn't you NOT want to be adding air each day to the tires?

    rsh545, what does your manual say on the issue? anything?
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    This is not intended as commentary about rsh545 since there may be something amiss with his Odyssey TPMS or PAX tires, but it's common knowledge that we as drivers fail to maintain tire pressure and rotate tires, as prescribed. That also leads to people driving around with mismatched tires. All of these steps progressively impact treadwear, handling, and safety (remember the Ford Explorer/Firestone tragedy, which had much to do with underinflated tires).

    Big Brother will mandate tire pressure monitoring systems starting in 2008. Arguably a good thing, except that it adds cost to everyone's equation, and it is another example of government micro-managing our lives so we don't hurt ourselves when left to our own devices.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    true.

    i remember telling a lady in a parking lot as she was getting into her car that one of her tires was dangerously low and she shouldn't drive on it.

    her response was, "ok, thanks, i'm late for a tennis match" and off she went. she didn't even bother to look at the near flat.

    i hope she made it to her very important tennis match.

    point is, even with the warning, some people will disregard the message.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Same thing happened to me a couple of weeks ago, first time in almost 2 years of ownership. The tires simply didn't have enough air in them going into winter - something that has absolutely no relation to PAX.
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    Something's wrong somewhere--my understanding is that the system doesn't trigger "low pressure" until its about 25% below recommended pressure--about 26 lbs or so. So long as you're setting your tire pressure at even 33lbs, it would take a temperature drop of over 60 degrees to hit the "trigger" at 26 lbs--thats cause you lose 1 lb. of pressure for roughly every 9 degrees of temperature. Either you're not setting the pressure high enough, or there's something wrong with your tire pressure monitoring system. My Odyssey Touring has no such problems. Hope you can get this resolve.

    25% is the standard for TPMS, and I think 35psi cold is the spec for an Odyssey PAX, but I have a theory or two about what is going on:

    (a) If the pressures were set after driving, the tires will have warmed up, and the pressure will have risen. Setting them to the cold inflation pressure at this point means that they will drop below the spec, (as much as 4 psi) after they cool back down.

    Add to that an overnight soak, outside, or even in an unheated garage, in Chicago in winter, where the temp might drop another 50 degrees and the pressure will contract further. I could see the net effect of both factors adding up to 8 or 9 psi - right at the 25% mark with a 35 psi tire.

    (b) Add to that the fact that many tire gauges are off a couple of psi, and, well, you can see how the tolerances can start to stack up. I found today that my own $35 race gauge, a dial type, was off 5 psi. We compared 3 gauges at work and there was an 8 psi spread. Again, 25% right there.

    What to do?

    (1) Check your pressures when the tire is cold. Note how many psi it is off. If you have to drive somewhere to add air, warming the tires and increasing the pressure in the process, add the number of psi that your cold reading said you should add, even if that puts the pressure above your hot reading.

    (2) Don't trust gas station pop-up gauges. You've seen how beat-up they get. Use your own gauge and check it for accuracy. If your TPMS has digital pressure readouts inside the car, you can calibrate your hand-held gauge to that. Buy a decent one. Don't ever drop it.

    PS: just today, I helped someone struggling to put air in their tires. I found that they hadn't taken the valve-stem cap off. Hey, at least they were trying to add air.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • sgarabediansgarabedian Member Posts: 8
    Hello Everyone,
    Does anyone on this forum know if there are people who own Honda Ody Touring who have changed out their PAX wheels for standard/custom aftermarket wheel/tire packages??? I know there is a ton of discussion about the PAX wheels and their hangups and I am now on the side of those who are against it; not as much because of the wear and tear, but more so because they are very difficult to balance just right. I've had a number of my wheels changed because of a vibration/balance issue at speeds over 65mph and the problem persisits.
    So again the question is the following: Has anyone actually gone through and changed out the PAX wheels?? Any problems so far?? I am aware of the "official" Honda and Michelin stand on this issue, I just want to know if anyone has had any problems making the change.
    THANKS
    SHANT
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    It's been done by some folks. The major (although hardly insurmountable) problem seems to be the TPMS. You might check the principal Odyssey owners' website for details.

    That said, PAX balancing problems have not been widely reported so I wonder if your cause doesn't lie elsewhere.
    How many different shops have worked on the problem? Have the tires been changed out? What balancing techiques have been utilized?
  • sgarabediansgarabedian Member Posts: 8
    I have found others with similar vibration issues. I had the vehicle balanced at two different Honda dealerships, for a total of 4 times or so. I have no idea what type of technique they used, but the official recommended method is quite involved and lengthy; so I'm unsure if they actually went through all the steps. I dealt with the issue for over a year, and involved Honda of America. The problem would get a touch better immediately after balancing, then get bad again. I pretty much isolated it to the wheels/tires. Nothing else makes sense. It got worse a few months ago when I rotated the wheels. I rotated them back just to get the annoying vibrations to tone down.
    SO you think some folks have changed out the wheels. Great!! The tire monitoring system I can deal with, as long as the car runs smoothly.
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