Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

user777 · December 2006

can they road force balance PAX wheels?

stuman168 · December 2006

here is a discussion about swapping the pax tire

link title

hope this helps
stu

sgarabedian · December 2006

Interesting you ask about Road Force balance.
The second or third time I took it in, I asked specifically for them to road force balance the wheels. After an all day affair , they told me they couldn't; that something was wrong with some of the wheels; that they had called Honda of America to sent technitians, and that they needed to keep the vehicle with them to figure it out. When I got the vehicle back 3-4 days later, they said they had to put a new wheel or something. Very strange. It took care of the problem only for a few weeks, then back again.
I think the issue is that balancing these PAX wheels is very difficult and very sensitive, with all the extra components like the pressure monitor sensors and the rubber donut, etc. So a slight problem makes it very noticible. I finally gave up trying to figure it out and tired of taking it to the dealers since I was getting nowhere. I will wait until the tires are worn down, then change out the whole wheel/tire set; as long as it will not cause a safety issue. I will buy a fifth wheel and put it in the "Lazy susan" slot, or in the back.

cccompson · December 2006

I agree that it is strange indeed that the problem would be fixed and then re-appear after several weeks. The inability to road force test is disheartening to hear.

Well, if you do go the replacement wheel route, I hope it works out for you. I had the same issue with a Ford van years ago. Multiple dealers tried a variety of cures but they never could eliminate the vibration (and they flat refused to replace the aluminum wheels saying Ford would not pay). Ford ended up paying even more when they bought it back under Ohio's lemon law.

guest · December 2006

Thanks for the info. I have already taken most of the steps that you have listed. I have found that the theory of letting the tires warm up does not work. My wife who is the primary driver of the van always reports to me that the indicator is on usually when the van has sat in her parking lot while she is at work. By the time she drives home 20 to 25 minutes later the tires should be warmed up by then. When she gets home I will take the van and search for a gas station with air lines that are not frozen which can take up to another twenty minutes, the indicator light on the dash is still on and will not go off until I put in at least 32 pounds of air. I go by the information from the sensors in the tires for pressure indicated on the dash monitor and have a digital gauge that I use as well they are usually the same. I really do appreciate your input and my intention is not to insult those who either have more knowledge or have made an effort to help. I have taken the van back to the dealer only to have them find nothing wrong which has lead to extreme frustration. A $40,000 vehicle and I have to fill the tires when the tempurature drops just doesn't make sense to me. Do the Pax tires on the Rolls Royce and Bugatti have the same problem?

user777 · December 2006

its sounds to me as if you still one or more bad rims or more likely tires. i'd call michelin and/or the makers of the road force balance equipment and ask if there is anything preventing the use of the machines. who knows, in the process maybe someone will take heart and replace all 4 wheels which is something someone should have done, but we know why it wasn't (too expensive).

maybe michelin or the road force balancer manufacturer would treat your case as "special".

cccompson · December 2006

by, your message suggests the problem here and it doesn't sound like PAX. Recommended pressure is to be measured when the tires are cold, not after a "20 to 25 minute" drive plus a trip to the gas station. Pressure can easily vary by 4 or 5 pounds between hot and cold.

If you insist on gauging pressure after driving for awhile, you'll need to add in a fudge factor (e.g., if you want them to be 35 when cold, put in 40 when warmed up).

fred222 · December 2006

This is slightly related.
I have a 2006 Odyssey EX-L. I recently purchased brand new Honda steel wheels to mount snow tires on. The amount of weight that was needed to balance these new from the dealer wheels really shocked me. On one there was a weight about 6" long on the inside of the wheel and about 4" long on the outside of the wheel. Other wheels were similar. This could be related to the tires, but I did have Michelin X-Ice radials installed. Also, these vans have 235/65/R16 tires. Honda does not have an OEM size snow tire for this vehicle and Michelin does not make one. I went with 215/70/R16 tires.

shipo · December 2006

"Honda does not have an OEM size snow tire for this vehicle and Michelin does not make one. I went with 215/70/R16 tires."

Be glad you didn't go with the 235s, they would be more inclined to ride up in the snow and get stuck as compared to the narrower 215s that you have. Said another way, the 215s should be extremely capable in the white stuff as they are more inclined to knife through snow instead.

Best Regards,
Shipo

vinnyny · February 2007

Has anyone gotten a current quote on the replacement cost of Pax tires? Are they still doing swap-outs at the dealerships?

I had my 06 Touring in to the local dealer for an oil change on Friday and was told that they DID NOT have the equipment to replace/service my Pax tires. The service advisor told me that the dealer had no plans to buy the equipment (in spite of Honda's claims that ALL dealers would have the gear by 1/1/07).

My van has 23,5xx miles on it and the tires are starting to look pretty worn (not that the tread depth was all that great to start with). My family and I absolutely love our Ody, but if it's going to cost me $2500 to replace the rims/tires, I'll be trading it in soon!

3sweetums · February 2007

I have a 2006 Odyssey, purchased in January 2006. My dealership is charging me $200 each for 2 tires, plus $116 for labor. Bad news is they had to get certified especially to do my tires (I hate being the guinea pig). Also, unbelievably, I only got 14000 miles out of my front tires. Yes, yes, I did not rotate them at 7000 miles (my apologies for not reading my owner's manual front to back) but I did take it to the dealership at 9000 for an oil change (not my first oil change, mind you, just my first one at the dealership) and told them the van was pulling considerably to the right. After they "checked it out" I was told that the van isn't pulling and that these tires are sensitive and are just conforming to the road. Stupid me believed the "experts". 5000 Miles later, the van was still pulling, and the front tires were visably worn. The dealership didin't have the tires in stock and needed to finish their certification course, so I had them rotate the tires to the back (again, the back tires look great). Miraculously the van no longer pulls - how about that? Right at this moment I am waiting for a call that the tires are on (it's been 4 hours since they started this job), and I'm not done arguing my point with them that it was never suggested to me that the tires should have been rotated when I was in at 9000 miles, and even if they were, I'd now be on my 2nd rotation and the tires would be back at the front. In my calculation, if these tires are only good for 14000 miles front end wear, I'd be back in 7000 miles to get them replaced. 21000 is still not enough mileage in my opinion! I asked my service rep to contact Michelin who, as an "act of goodwill" will cover 50% of the cost of the tires, stating that because I didn't rotate them at 7000 it caused the tires to wear extensively blah blah blah. I was also told by the Service Manager that these tires are especially "soft". My sales person is completely on my side and suggested I talk directly with the district Honda service manager about all this. We're also wondering why on earth Honda would design their Touring version around these "soft" PAX tires when they know that most of these vans are driven by moms who do pretty much nothing but stop and go driving.

Just venting, but any suggestions/opinions, etc. would be greatly appreciated!

jeffreyh2 · February 2007

vinny,

I checked with my dealer a couple of weeks ago. Last fall they did not have the tire changing equipment and were only replacing the full wheel-tire assembly at $600 plus tax each. Now they have the equipment, but not the tires. They say that they can order them as needed.

The cost is $225 per tire, plus labor, plus tax on the tire cost. Total $1,075, plus tax, for a set of 4. About 1/2 the previous cost.

Regards, JEff

vinnyny · February 2007

Thanks Jeff and Sweetums.

After posting my question earlier today, I decided to call Michelin customer service. They told me that the tires should be expected to wear for 40k miles with proper rotation. As "an act of good faith" they agreed to pro-rate the tires to 40k miles. In my case, I have close to 24k miles on mine (60% worn), so Michelin would pay up to 40% of the cost to replace. I can live with that because I have never had a tire last 40k miles anyway.

None of the Honda dealers in my area have the equipment/training and there is only one Michelin tire store within 40 miles that does. I hope I don't get a flat in the middle of the desert on a Friday evening! I say that because that very thing happened to me in my BMW 330 about 50 miles east of El Paso. Nobody within 400 miles had a pair of tires that would fit (performance package has weird sizes). I ended up riding the donut spare another 350 miles to Ft Worth and waiting until the next afternoon for tires to be shipped in. I can't imagine finding Pax tires in that situation!

shipo · February 2007

"In my case, I have close to 24k miles on mine (60% worn), so Michelin would pay up to 40% of the cost to replace. I can live with that because I have never had a tire last 40k miles anyway."

The Sport Package tires on my 530i didn't even see 25,000 miles, although that wasn't unexpected. That said, I'm nearing 50,000 miles on a set of tires on one of our vans, and those tires don't even look half gone yet. I'm thinking that this particular set will easily see 90,000 miles with tread to spare.

Best Regards,
Shipo

vinnyny · February 2007

From all I've read thus far, it seems that owners of PAX-equipped vans would have to be very lucky to make it to 30k, much less 90!

We love our Odyssey (it's our third in spite of being minivan haters) but I wouldn't get the PAX system on another. We have two-year-old twins, so a van is virtually a requirement. However, as soon as they're mature/disciplined enough to board on their own, we'll be getting an SUV (probably Acadia or Outlook without PAX).

actualsize · February 2007

I hope I don't get a flat in the middle of the desert on a Friday evening! I say that because that very thing happened to me in my BMW 330 about 50 miles east of El Paso. Nobody within 400 miles had a pair of tires that would fit (performance package has weird sizes). I ended up riding the donut spare another 350 miles to Ft Worth and waiting until the next afternoon for tires to be shipped in. I can't imagine finding Pax tires in that situation!

Yes! That, sir, is precisely my main beef with run-flat tires. Even more so with PAX. The Folks in France, Japan and Germany can't really comprehend how big the USA is and how uninhabited vasts swaths of this country can be. You can't go more than 10 kilometers in any of those other places without coming to another town.

And since BMW is one of the German Big 3, of course any podunk tire shop in Deutschland will have BMW rubber close at hand, run-flat or no. Not so here.

3sweetums · February 2007

Boy, I wish I would have known all this before I bought the Odyssey! I do love that minivan, but I would have thought twice about those PAX tires.

By the way, it took 9 HOURS for them to put those 2 tires on yesterday! Granted, mine was their first PAX replacement job and they just completed their Michelin certification for the PAX system especially for me, but the "book time" states 45 minutes per tire. I figured maybe twice that time for their first-time job. Just a warning to all the other guinea pigs out there! It drives great though, but I had them measure and record the tread on the new and existing tires, and will have them re-measured at each oil change and tire rotation from this point on. I want it all documented in case they wear out in 14000 miles. I still plan to go after Michelin for complete reimbursement. 50% isn't enough for me. I didn't pay $40,000 for a vehicle only to have to replace 2 tires every year!

shipo · February 2007

"From all I've read thus far, it seems that owners of PAX-equipped vans would have to be very lucky to make it to 30k, much less 90!"

Needless to say, we're not running PAX tires on any of our cars.

Both of our vans have a $400 set of Goodyear Assurance TripleTred tires mounted in place of the factory rubber.

"We love our Odyssey (it's our third in spite of being minivan haters) but I wouldn't get the PAX system on another. We have two-year-old twins, so a van is virtually a requirement. However, as soon as they're mature/disciplined enough to board on their own, we'll be getting an SUV (probably Acadia or Outlook without PAX)."

We got our first van when our kids were little. We got our second van when they were mid-sized. Contrary to our plans when we got our first van, we still have both of them and oh my do they come in handy with our son, who plays on as many as four different Soccer teams and a Baseball team in a year and our daughter who's into the whole ballet and modern dance thing. It always seems that we're either toting a bunch of kids and/or equipment and/or sets. Yeesh. I don't figure on being down to a single minivan until the oldest gets off to college (five more years), and we may never get back down to zero given how darned handy the things are to have around. :-/

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo · February 2007

"I didn't pay $40,000 for a vehicle only to have to replace 2 tires every year!"

I guess it's all a matter of perspective. The MSRP on my last car was $49,000, and right from the day I took delivery I expected to have to buy it a complete set of rubber every twelve to eighteen months. Go figure. That said, 14,000 miles for a set of All-Season tires for a family vehicle is absurd. I'm thinking that the worst we've ever gotten from the factory All-Season rubber on any car or van we've ever owned was something like 45,000 miles.

Best Regards,
Shipo

cccompson · February 2007

Well, I've got 26K on my '05 Touring and the PAX tires are wearing quite well - expect that they'll last well into the 40s. My use, though, probably can't be considered typical as it is weighted in favor of highway miles. Premature PAX wear seems to correlate with lots of in-town driving.

vinnyny · February 2007

Most of my driving was on Arizona highways. Perhaps high speeds and higher temps contributed to the early wear. As with most front drive vehicles, my front tires look worse than the rears (although the next rotation should even up the score again).

I can't emphasize how much we love the Odyssey, but I wouldn't recommend the Pax system to anybody living outside a major metro area. By the way, most of the tire suppliers that Michelin claims can do Pax replacements are not equipped, so call Michelin before running to one of the listed providers...

duke1parkway · March 2007

OK. have less than 25K on my Pax tires (2005 Odyssey) and went in for oil and rotation. Fronts worn out and uneven, backs with less than 10K left. Replacement cost was $500/tire! Was told at least 2 hours per tire to change. Therefore, lost the car for an evening. Are now looking to replace van (Can't afford an extra $1000 every year). Bad system, bad tires and no real alternative.

vinnyny · March 2007

You should call Michelin ASAP. As I said in a previous post, Michelin agreed to pick up part of the cost of replacement. They told me they would pay 40% of the cost of the new tire (nothing for mounting).

actualsize · March 2007

Two hours? No. I've seen PAX tires mounted. Sure it takes longer than a normal tire, and requires a special machine. But its more like five minutes for a PAX compared to one or two for a regular tire. And the price they're quoting sounds about double what it should be.

Monopolies stink. And Odyssey Touring owners have to deal with two: Michelin, and having to use a car dealership (who knows you're stuck) to buy and service tires.

Make your feelings known to Honda corporate.

red_sox999 · March 2007

A "How To" Guide to be PAX free

Here's how to do it from:
http://www.odyclub.com/forums/showthread.php?s=d25bf7b9a49629ab845675cecbf6d4e1&- threadid=36241&perpage=15&highlight=&pagenumber=12

I am now PAX free. I did it. Tire Rack would not do it for me. Honda would not do it for me. I had to do it. And I did. Here's how:

I bought 4 TPMS sensors at www.hondrparts.com from Tim Gates. Part # 06421-S3V-A04, for $35.82 each. I bought a small wheel for the spare tire (one of the donut spares like they use on the EX), part # 42700-SHJ-A51 for $43.92.

I then went to www.Tirerack.com , and bought a spare tire to go on the donut rim: Size T135/80MD-17 Goodyear Spare, for $108. I also bought AT Italia S5 wheels, size 17X7.5 for $99 each. I also bought Kumho Solus KH16 tires, size 235/60TR17 for $75 each.

These tires came mounted and balanced on the wheels. I took them to a local tire center, who dismounted the tires installed the TPMS sensors, remounted and balanced the wheels. They also mounted my donut spare tire on the rim and placed it in the van where the Lazy Susan used to be. It fit perfectly. The tire shop only charged me $30.00. I got lucky there.

The instructions for installation of the TPMS sensors is at https://hondacuraworld.hostasaurus....uminumwheel.pdf

So I am done and all works well. I am free of PAX.

I will be selling my 4 PAX wheels and my Lazy Susan. Any takers?

__________________
2005 Ody Touring
Taffeta White on Ivory Leather

rorr · March 2007

Good job.

One question: why not store your spare in the same place the spare is stored in the other Ody's and keep your Lazy Susan?

dsrtrat2 · March 2007

I commend you! I wonder if the donut spare wheel and tire could have been found in a salvage yard for just a few dollars. Keep this forum up to date on your conversion, as I know there are a lot of others who are thinking of doing what you have done. Thank you for helping them out!

vinnyny · March 2007

Good job! Is the TPMS now fully operational?

chirp · March 2007

What was the total cost of this conversion and how does the van ride? Did you do a total wheel alignment?

red_sox999 · March 2007

Hi all,
Just to clarify: I posted the "How To" from one of the OdyClub forums (www.OdyClub.Com). It was posted by member "jimmylee1000". It was such a good post I thought everyone here would find it helpful. From what I read on that forum, most people are spending about $1200 to become Pax Free--but they should easily break even when they need to change the tires for the first time.
Personally, im buying the spare wheel and tire now and will see if i can get a tpms guage in it. Once my Pax tires wear out Ill order the full set of non-pax wheels/tires.
Hope this helps.

richiff · March 2007

I might be interested in purchasing a wheel.

jeffreyh2 · April 2007

My dealer now has the PAX equipment and is quoting me $1,076 plus tax for a set of 4 mounted tires, down considerably from last year's $2,400 plus tax when they only had tire and rim assemblies. Unfortunately the dealer does not stock the tires and obtains them on an as-needed basis.

I have purchased a 'doughnut' spare and mounting hardware for the empty spare-tire compartment, so that I don't get stuck somewhere out of range of a PAX supplier and can minimize the loss of life on the support structure if I have to wait while a supplier obtains a tire should I need one. But I think I will stick with the PAX system now that I can get replacements locally at a somewhat reasonable cost.

I have 32,000 miles on my tires now, and they were marginally effective in the snow last winter, but I think they will get to 40,000 before the tread is all the way down to the indicator bars. No matter what the mileage I will replace them before December.

Regards, JEff

vinnyny · April 2007

$1076 is a heck of a lot more reasonable than $2400, but I was in my local dealership the other day and a gentleman was yelling about spending $1600 at the local tire store. None of our local dealers (southern VA) has the pax gear nor do they have plans to get it.

I'm driving my 06 Ody Touring up to New England for Easter and I think I'll be running out looking for a spare too--just in case!

cccompson · April 2007

Interesting post, Jeff. Your quoted price is (finally) in line with what was promised when PAX was introduced.

You're right, the all weather PAX tires are not much good in the snow. Fortunately, they now offer a snow PAX.

I'm at 28K and it appears the tires will last past 40K.

chirp · April 2007

I'm at 15K in our 10 month old Touring and they do not even have the premature edge wear that some have complained about. These should esily hit the 40K mark. My dealer has the equipment so all should be good!

red_sox999 · April 2007

I wish I could say Ill stick with the PAX. Honestly, I dont like changing the delivered functionality, BUT, Ive had this van 2 years and all the PAX tires have up till this point now been changed under warranty due to punctures (we live in a new neighbourhood with tons of nails on the roads due to new construction). Even with new tires Im seeing excessive edge wear on these new tires.

Add the excessive cost for tires, increased wear rate of the tires, and the lack of support when you need a tire replaced and there's only one solution for me: As soon as this set wears out Im replacing them with non-pax wheels.

In the mean time Ill buy a donut spare. Most likely ill have to waste some much-needed garage space and store the pax wheels when I buy new tires/wheels. Itll probably be a big selling point since I can provide a new owner with his choice of wheel type. Something HONDA in their wisdom did not give me.

usnsret · May 2007

I have read enough of the problems to make me challenge a local tire dealer to find out all of the pros and cons on changing to a non PAX tire. One has a high level of comfort when riding on the PAX system until you realize that 99.9% of the service centers are Honda/Acura dealers and they are not always close. This limitation means that you could be stuck somewhere. Perhaps I will re-visit the run flat tires whenever the price comes down and there are enough tire dealers to service them.

barneym · May 2007

Boy am I glad that checked this forum. Wife and I are planning on purchasing a Touring model in September when baby #2 arrives

. From what I've read, I want to avoid PAX like the plague! Good news is that a yahoo search of "2008 Honda Odyssey" turned up this tidbit at hondapreview.com. I sure hope the rumor is true and the 2008's show up before September.

2008 Honda OdysseyFor 08 the Odyssey is slated for a mid-model change. We've heard very few rumors except for the elimination of the PAX system which we find hard to believe. With dealers adding PAX tire changing hardware to their service departments we don't believe PAX will be going away but rather will spread to other models.

Although most of the sheet metal will remain unchanged you will most likely see Honda's standard list of mid-model changes which include headlight, taillight and bumper changes. Expect to see a few color changes as well as another trim level to finish out the last 2 years of the cycle.

shipo · May 2007

Hmmm, Honda dropping PAX? First I've heard of it. That said, now is probably the best time to fish or cut bait for them. Make the change now (or make PAX an option), and offer the folks who want to be rid of their pax wheels a fair priced wheel swap and they could limit their exposure to class-action law suits down the road.

If this comes to pass, then it will be safe to say:

PAX=TRX=Dead and buried

Best Regards,
Shipo

vinnyny · May 2007

When I bought my 06 Touring, I expressed concern about the PAX system and the dealer assured me that by the time I needed tires the Honda dealership network would be ready, willing, and able to replace my tires at a price only 10-15% higher than standard tires. Unfortunately, that assertion has proven to be B.S.. Most Honda dealers have yet to buy the equipment and none of my local dealers plans on doing so. Forget about the cost of replacing the tires at the only shop that actually has the equipment--it's still more than double the price of a new set of regular Michelins (and they don't actually have the tires in stock).

This is my third Ody, but no matter how much we love the van, it will be our last if Honda doesn't straighten out this PAX issue. If they're going to offer a wheel swap, they should get ahead of the class action suit by doing it now and doing it free. I'd gladly waive my right to sue if they replaced my PAX tires/wheels with a suitable substitute--but only before I have a Pax tire failure and get stuck out in East Bum#$%& without a replacement tire. Then, it will be too late...

dpatel1 · May 2007

Here is some info on a recently filed
class action lawsuit in California:

http://www.kabolaw.com/lawyer-attorney-1193550.html
http://www.sfmslaw.com/pages/cases.php?id=343

red_sox999 · June 2007

Boy oh Boy. You have to read the case against Honda on the sfmslaw site. On poor lady lives in Key West FL with the PAX system and was unable to find replacement tires all the way up the Florida Keys. Ive been down there and can't imagine having to drive 150 up the Keys to the main land for a tire change.

I hope the judge throws the book at those Michelin/Honda idiots.

chirp · June 2007

Yeah, bring on the lawyers, that'll solve everything. I'm still loving my PAX. No wear issues after 19k and no flats. Pretty much how my fortune has been for thirty-some years of driving. Must be living right.

cstiles · June 2007

My Honda dealer confirmed today that PAX tires will no longer be offered beginning with the 2008 model year. Not even an option. My dealer has spent $40,000 for the PAX changing equipment, so they will only use that for those 2005--2007 Touring models. They are not too happy about that.

They also quoted me $1200 to replace all 4 PAX tires.

I am now at 24,000 and projecting treadwear to 35,000 at this point on my 2007 Touring. My wear has been pretty even, since I keep my tires at around 37psi cold.

Overall happy with PAX but not happy with Honda's decision to discontinue them with the 2008 models. This can't help with resale, although it will be interesting how the class action is resolved. Maybe Honda will eventually pay to swap out my PAX for conventional tires if that is what I choose to do.

vinnyny · June 2007

It will only take one flat tire to change your mind--particularly if it leaves you stranded in the middle of nowhere...

chirp · June 2007

and thus the reason we have PAX. I don't need my wife changing a tire on the side of the road with my kids in back. Don't tell me all of the bad reasons for PAX from wear to performance to weight to cost to the very rare instance of a PAX tire self-destructing and stranding a family on the one vacation they take a year.... I've heard 'em all and am sticking with it. If a new set is $1,000, big deal. It's worth it to me and that's all that matters.

mwalters1 · June 2007

It seems like the only people on this forum that are ok with PAX are those that haven't had a flat tire yet. Believe me, the problem won't be the wife having to change a tire on the side of the road (that's why we have roadside assistance and cell phones). It'll be that you'll be without a vehicle for days while they figure out how to change the tire, plus wait 'till you get the bill. Honda is doing the right thing by dropping the PAX system.

jeffreyh2 · June 2007

"My Honda dealer confirmed today that PAX tires will no longer be offered beginning with the 2008 model year. Not even an option."

Perhaps we'll be able to buy a set of whatever wheel and tire is offered on the 2008 models, and with a little luck it will have a pressure-sensing system that is compatible. Shouldn't cost too much more than a single PAX replacement.

I've got 35,000 miles on my 2005 model, and they're approaching the wear markers but should get me through the summer.

Regards, JEff

chirp · June 2007

I asked politely to not tell me about cost or the one time chance that you get stuck on your annual vacation. My dealer has the machine and tires, plus I have another year of free replacements left. Once again, it works for me and that's all I care about. We'll see if they are really dropping PAX when official news hits instead of dealer rumours.

cccompson · June 2007

The chances of Honda not offering PAX in '08 is about zero. Instead, they'll likely be offered on at least one more model line (the new Accord).

Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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