Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
When I bought my van I lived in Tucson and drove back and forth to the Phoenix area regularly. Trust me when I tell you that you don't want to lose a tire out in the desert. With the PAX I expected that my wife could keep driving until she got somewhere safe at either end. However, part of the theory relied on my dealer's assurances that one could actually find a PAX-equipped dealer who also had a tire in stock. Those assurances proved to be false...
I live in Virginia now and none of the local dealers has the equipment. The only tire store that has the machine doesn't stock the tires. So, I'm not just talking about that once a year vacation (which I won't get to take once I pay the huge bill to replace the tires).
The bottom line is that if you lose a PAX tire in most parts of the country, your van will be out of service for days and you'l be out at least twice as much money. That wasn't part of the deal...
I am happy with PAX, but not happy with Honda's decision to stop offering them. They have obviously received a high number of complaints to shut it down. It will be interesting to see what Acura does with the RL, since they offer PAX on the 2006 and 2007 models.
1) Industry sources indicate PAX will be offered on the new '08 Accord.
2) Honda mandating their dealers buy PAX tire changing equipment strongly suggests that they are in this for the long haul.
But what I think doesn't matter - wait until September.
Dealers also already know but have to keep the lid on so they can move out the 2007's and temper the rumors. There are boxes of printed brochures in some warehouse waiting to be released. Service depts also need to know so they can properly prepare for model changeovers and service manuals are already printed/ready online, but have not been officially released.
Contrary to what you say, I don't believe dealers are required to purchase PAX equipment. They were strongly encouraged, but independent dealers don't have to buy the equipment. The tires themselves aren't even covered by the Honda warranty. They are legally covered by Michelin. But obviously, Honda bears its share of responsibility since they chose to make them mandatory/available for 05-07 Touring (and 06-07 RL) models.
I'll be disapponted if the 2008's don't offer PAX since it will further reinforce opinions that PAX will relive the embarrassment of TRX. The concept of PAX is sound from a technological and safety standpoint, but poor execution, pricing, and availability by Michelin's infrastructure has been frustrating to witness. Another example of corporate harakiri.
I've got to ask. By what measure do you consider the PAX system technologically sound? As I see it, any wheel and tire combination that weighs in at more than twice the weight of a comparable GFT wheel and tire combination, is a technological disaster. The only thing that can come from that extra unsprung weight is longer stopping distances, increased brake fade; faster brake wear, faster suspension wear and a reduction in ride and handling especially on less than perfect roads. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, Honda has beefed up the suspension components and such to deal with the extra weight, but all that does is simply add even more weight to the already bloated two and a quarter ton Odyssey.
You may well like the theoretical safety factor of being able to drive after a pressure failure of the tire, and I agree that is a noble goal, but IMHO, the PAX system is a failure and the market will ultimately force its demise, just as it did the similarly half baked TRX system.
Best Regards,
Shipo
it would seem if your arguments are sound, they wouldn't be placing the tires on the Accord.
Agreed. One of our minivans has a TPMS, and fortunately that's the one my wife drives most often as she has an uncanny knack for finding random screws, nails, pot holes and curbs. In the 90,000 miles that she's driven with that system, it has managed to catch all but one issue far enough in advance to allow her to either safely stop and get air or make it home so that I can deal with the problem. The one time it didn't help was when she shredded a tire going over a very sharp curb during an accident avoidence manuver, and in that scenario, I don't think any RFT technology (PAX or otherwise) would have fared much better.
Best Regards,
Shipo
RFTs have an advantage in that they will work in the event of a sudden rupture caused by driving over a chunk of sharp metal in the roadway. Like them or not, they do have this advantage. I could have used them in this situation.
Is that enough for me to consider a RFT? Perhaps. PAX? No way. Here are two words that describe the problems with PAX: Infrastructure and Monopoly.
Give me TPMS and a spare tire any day. Even if I had RFTs, I'd still want a spare so I wasn't hamstrung by infrastructure problems or mileage limitations.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
it's possible you damage the integrity of a RFT's sidewall, in which case it's nojoy.
i just don't see the advantage of them, but then, i know how to change a tire even if the wife doesn't. all she has to do is get the vehicle off the interstate.
PAX' own demo videos shows an Odyssey with a hole in the sidewall you could pass a golf ball through and it's driving around like there is no tomorrow.
i just don't see the advantage of them, but then, i know how to change a tire even if the wife doesn't. all she has to do is get the vehicle off the interstate.
With PAX she can drive it home and then you can bail her out and drive it to the dealer/service for replacement. It saves you from having to put your beer down and stop watching the game while you run out to her aid.
Every system is a compromise of sorts. A conventional RFT has a stiff sidewall that results in an unacceptably harsh and/or loud ride, unless you're driving a Corvette or certain Euro-sedans. PAX allows the application of RFTs to conventional family vehicles, in a country where many Americans actually prefer their cars to ride like Barcoloungers (not me).
There are legions of complaints about the Sienna equipped with conventional RFTs (perhaps even a class action?). Can you even buy a Sienna with RFTs today? So, my rebuttal to you is that RFT technology has not found a niche beyond an extremely miniscule slice of the marketplace.
You either buy into RFT technology or you don't. PAX is one version. IMHO, it's a credible and potentially viable design, albeit a poorly executed example. When you first drew the parallel between PAX and TRX, I laughed (nervously). Now I fear that you may be correct.
but really, if you hit a good chunk of metal in a PAX, dollars to donuts you ruin the sidewall *and* you break the ring, or you stress it in such a way, that even if the tire portion is replaced, leaves you with potentially a compromised tire for subsequent emergencies. i mean, how do the various installers, even michelin stores verify the integrity of the ring? how do YOU know it is done properly?
the point i was trying to make though is even if you had conventional RFTs, you'd probably be calling for backup. with the additional cost of the PAX, the difficulty locating a place that has a replacement and the proper equipment and trained people, it being opened after hours or sunday (?), and also some of the negative attributes that another poster pointed out technically, i'm sorry, i'd have to pass.
if they make sense for some people, it's because they factored in everything, which I highly doubt they have... even as another poster has mentioned, people just aren't seeing the value in the non-PAX conventional RFT.
so we are back to the argument that tire pressure monitoring hits the proper location on the value/cost/complexity/safety space for just about everyone...
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
she blew me off by say, ahh thanks, but i'm late for a tennis date.
i tried to save her lots of $$$, inconvenience, her life, someone else's life. she didn't care to even look at the tire. :sick:
at the minimum, she needed a new tire because of her attitude, i'm sure of that.
Best Regards,
Shipo
When the PAX tires become available for order on Tire Rack, that will be the real symbol that this product has reached some level of crtical mass.
It's not realistic to have the PAX system as a dealer-installed option. The significantly heavier PAX wheels require changes to the normal suspension system to accommodate the additional unsprung weight.
Regards, JEff
I now have 25k miles on the car. The front tires are bald again. Michelin agree to pay 50% of the cost. The dealer now can replace just the tires. They charged me $320. They had the car for seven hours AND they chipped my rims in 14 places. They will be buying me new rims. (I just got the car back last night).
These tires may work well and not leave me on the freeway if I get a flat, but it would be cheaper to put normal rims on the car and ruin a rim and tire every time I get a flat. The customer service surrounding getting a tire replaced is insane. Honda has never offered to pitch in to replace the tires. IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT BUYING A TOURING ODYSSEY- DON'T DO IT.
I will be contacting the class action attorney today and offer an affidavit based on my experiences.
Bottom line; the sidewalls on these tires are stiffer then normal, maybe that makes them less forgiving. But, WE, as the owner must take responsibility to check tire pressure, allignment, and do rotations. So many people ignore their tires and then complain when the wear out early.
I may be wrong but I don't believe that is the case with the PAX tires. The sidewall used on these tires is supposedly just as "soft" and compliant as those used on regular GFTs.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Regardless, it's just speculation on my part as to whether this is a contributing factor. I often read about people getting premature wear with these PAX tires, but it's not everyone (certainly not me), so I'm left wondering if this is just a normal percentage like any tire. In other words, user error caused by poor maintenance results in a certain percentage of ALL tires to fail early. These PAX tires are a different technology and more expensive, so when they wear out early maybe people make more noise then when it happens with "regular" tires.
Aside from the slightly stiffer sidewall and locking mechanism on the bead, they are just normal tires. The ring is unique but that's INSIDE and plays no role when the tire has air in it. So where is the common cause? I suspect there isn't one.
Great! But by "keeping them slightly overinflated to combat side wear" you seem to be acknowledging a potential problem. Over-inflation carries its own problems (hard ride, center wear.) Good wear should be available at the vehicle manufacturer's specified pressure. A carefully maintained and driven minivan tire should be capable of 50k miles. 40k seems average to me.
Also, I made sure the dealer did a four tire allignment BEFORE I took possesion of the car. The toe was slightly out which would have done early wear.
Also admirable. But this shouldn't be necessary upon delivery. I wouldn't fault any new-car buyer for failing to do the same. You shouldn't have to perform maintenance on a brand new car.
Bottom line; the sidewalls on these tires are stiffer then normal, maybe that makes them less forgiving.
PAX sidewalls are stiffer than regular tires, but they are also softer than regular RFTs. The sidewalls are also shaped and loaded differently due to the unique tire bead.
Back to back tests I've conducted between a PAX and non-PAX Odyssey showed the non-PAX van to ride softer. In the time available, it was hard to tell whether that was due to somewhat higher PAX sidewall stiffness or higher PAX unsprung weight. A regular Odyssey tire/wheel weighed 50 lbs, while the PAX assembly weighed 75 lbs. - each.
25 lbs. more per corner plays heck with toe-in (alignment) stability and steering shake. Look at the tie rod end on your Touring. That enlarged "mass damper" isn't present on regular Odysseys, indicating sensitivity to the additional PAX mass.
You're right about not being able to tell exactly what is going on here, but I can tell you that just about every car with a run-flat tire, be it PAX or the regular SST kind (self-supporting tire), has a thread like this on Edmunds with plenty of people making the same complaints. Threads about cars without RFTs have fewer posts about tire problems and concerns, let alone threads dedicated to tire problems and concerns.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
60K is just 4 years on a vehicle driven 15K/yr. the way to really get value out of the vehicle is to hold onto it well past 100K. 150K / 200K?
tell your oldest, it's the minivan he/she will get. they'll look at you like your nuts.