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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    I absolutely concur with that statement. I sure hope these posters here are driving Tourings and not just PAX haters because they have nothing better to do with their time but complain; even when it doesn't affect them. :confuse:
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    I'm not a "PAX hater" and I do own an 06 Touring. This is my third Odyssey, so I'm not a Honda hater either. I bought the van with the PAX specifically because I didn't want my wife and kids stranded in a bad area. Roadside assistance and cell phones work great--unless you're in a remote area (or the Cross Bronx expressway late at night).

    When I bought my van I lived in Tucson and drove back and forth to the Phoenix area regularly. Trust me when I tell you that you don't want to lose a tire out in the desert. With the PAX I expected that my wife could keep driving until she got somewhere safe at either end. However, part of the theory relied on my dealer's assurances that one could actually find a PAX-equipped dealer who also had a tire in stock. Those assurances proved to be false...

    I live in Virginia now and none of the local dealers has the equipment. The only tire store that has the machine doesn't stock the tires. So, I'm not just talking about that once a year vacation (which I won't get to take once I pay the huge bill to replace the tires).

    The bottom line is that if you lose a PAX tire in most parts of the country, your van will be out of service for days and you'l be out at least twice as much money. That wasn't part of the deal...
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    What leads you to say odds are zero? I talked to the service manager at my Honda dealer and he directly told me that the 2008's will not offer PAX. He stated that unequivocally. I suppose he could have been lying to me, but that is what he said.

    I am happy with PAX, but not happy with Honda's decision to stop offering them. They have obviously received a high number of complaints to shut it down. It will be interesting to see what Acura does with the RL, since they offer PAX on the 2006 and 2007 models.
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    " I am happy with PAX" . So does that mean you drive a Touring with the PAX system?
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    I don't think he's lying to you, just misinformed or speculating. The '08s will be arriving in September and we'll know for sure then.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    As stated numerous times on this board, I own a 2006 Odyssey Touring. I also have a 2003 Accord 6spd and 2005 Acura RL. Have owned 12 Hondas/Acuras in 26 years. But only one with PAX. =)
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    You still haven't answered the question on why you suggest the odds are zero??? What leads you to say that?
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Ok, thanks. Sorry about that. :)
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Here's a couple of reasons:

    1) Industry sources indicate PAX will be offered on the new '08 Accord.

    2) Honda mandating their dealers buy PAX tire changing equipment strongly suggests that they are in this for the long haul.

    But what I think doesn't matter - wait until September.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    We will know well before September. Probably mid-to-late July. The press moratorium will be lifted in less than a month, and many insiders have already known facts for the next model year for a while now. Next month's Car and Driver and other magazines will have preview/road tests of the new Accord, along with technical specs.

    Dealers also already know but have to keep the lid on so they can move out the 2007's and temper the rumors. There are boxes of printed brochures in some warehouse waiting to be released. Service depts also need to know so they can properly prepare for model changeovers and service manuals are already printed/ready online, but have not been officially released.

    Contrary to what you say, I don't believe dealers are required to purchase PAX equipment. They were strongly encouraged, but independent dealers don't have to buy the equipment. The tires themselves aren't even covered by the Honda warranty. They are legally covered by Michelin. But obviously, Honda bears its share of responsibility since they chose to make them mandatory/available for 05-07 Touring (and 06-07 RL) models.

    I'll be disapponted if the 2008's don't offer PAX since it will further reinforce opinions that PAX will relive the embarrassment of TRX. The concept of PAX is sound from a technological and safety standpoint, but poor execution, pricing, and availability by Michelin's infrastructure has been frustrating to witness. Another example of corporate harakiri.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I think any tire swap-over will definitely include tire pressure monitoring systems, since the federal government is mandating those by 2009 models, I believe. It will be nice to see Honda offer the switch, if that is what owners choose. Although I am a PAX supporter (so far), it would be good to have some options in the event the tires are discontinued as OEM equipment.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "The concept of PAX is sound from a technological and safety standpoint..."

    I've got to ask. By what measure do you consider the PAX system technologically sound? As I see it, any wheel and tire combination that weighs in at more than twice the weight of a comparable GFT wheel and tire combination, is a technological disaster. The only thing that can come from that extra unsprung weight is longer stopping distances, increased brake fade; faster brake wear, faster suspension wear and a reduction in ride and handling especially on less than perfect roads. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, Honda has beefed up the suspension components and such to deal with the extra weight, but all that does is simply add even more weight to the already bloated two and a quarter ton Odyssey.

    You may well like the theoretical safety factor of being able to drive after a pressure failure of the tire, and I agree that is a noble goal, but IMHO, the PAX system is a failure and the market will ultimately force its demise, just as it did the similarly half baked TRX system.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    i think you've made some good arguments for avoiding the technology from a technical standpoint. it would seem putting a tire pressure monitoring system on conventional tires would be optimizing the problem enough.

    it would seem if your arguments are sound, they wouldn't be placing the tires on the Accord.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "It would seem putting a tire pressure monitoring system on conventional tires would be optimizing the problem enough."

    Agreed. One of our minivans has a TPMS, and fortunately that's the one my wife drives most often as she has an uncanny knack for finding random screws, nails, pot holes and curbs. In the 90,000 miles that she's driven with that system, it has managed to catch all but one issue far enough in advance to allow her to either safely stop and get air or make it home so that I can deal with the problem. The one time it didn't help was when she shredded a tire going over a very sharp curb during an accident avoidence manuver, and in that scenario, I don't think any RFT technology (PAX or otherwise) would have fared much better.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    I second that - mostly. TPMS, which will be 100% standard on all cars beginning with the 2008 model year, really messes with the case for RFTs. If you know your tire is leaking before it goes flat, you've got time to get it repaired. And standard tires can be patched or replaced at ANY TIRE STORE on the planet.

    RFTs have an advantage in that they will work in the event of a sudden rupture caused by driving over a chunk of sharp metal in the roadway. Like them or not, they do have this advantage. I could have used them in this situation.

    Is that enough for me to consider a RFT? Perhaps. PAX? No way. Here are two words that describe the problems with PAX: Infrastructure and Monopoly.

    Give me TPMS and a spare tire any day. Even if I had RFTs, I'd still want a spare so I wasn't hamstrung by infrastructure problems or mileage limitations.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    RFTs have an advantage in that they will work in the event of a sudden rupture caused by driving over a chunk of sharp metal in the roadway

    it's possible you damage the integrity of a RFT's sidewall, in which case it's nojoy.

    i just don't see the advantage of them, but then, i know how to change a tire even if the wife doesn't. all she has to do is get the vehicle off the interstate. ;)
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    it's possible you damage the integrity of a RFT's sidewall, in which case it's nojoy.

    PAX' own demo videos shows an Odyssey with a hole in the sidewall you could pass a golf ball through and it's driving around like there is no tomorrow.

    i just don't see the advantage of them, but then, i know how to change a tire even if the wife doesn't. all she has to do is get the vehicle off the interstate.

    With PAX she can drive it home and then you can bail her out and drive it to the dealer/service for replacement. It saves you from having to put your beer down and stop watching the game while you run out to her aid. ;)
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I've got to ask. By what measure do you consider the PAX system technologically sound? As I see it, any wheel and tire combination that weighs in at more than twice the weight of a comparable GFT wheel and tire combination, is a technological disaster

    Every system is a compromise of sorts. A conventional RFT has a stiff sidewall that results in an unacceptably harsh and/or loud ride, unless you're driving a Corvette or certain Euro-sedans. PAX allows the application of RFTs to conventional family vehicles, in a country where many Americans actually prefer their cars to ride like Barcoloungers (not me).

    There are legions of complaints about the Sienna equipped with conventional RFTs (perhaps even a class action?). Can you even buy a Sienna with RFTs today? So, my rebuttal to you is that RFT technology has not found a niche beyond an extremely miniscule slice of the marketplace.

    You either buy into RFT technology or you don't. PAX is one version. IMHO, it's a credible and potentially viable design, albeit a poorly executed example. When you first drew the parallel between PAX and TRX, I laughed (nervously). Now I fear that you may be correct.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    right, i understand about the inner ring and the fact that a good portion of the sidewall can be gone (perfect holes are unlikely), and you're still good to go, whereas if it were a conventional RFT, or conventional tire, hitting a good chunk of metal that results in sidewall integrity issues means your stuck.

    but really, if you hit a good chunk of metal in a PAX, dollars to donuts you ruin the sidewall *and* you break the ring, or you stress it in such a way, that even if the tire portion is replaced, leaves you with potentially a compromised tire for subsequent emergencies. i mean, how do the various installers, even michelin stores verify the integrity of the ring? how do YOU know it is done properly?

    the point i was trying to make though is even if you had conventional RFTs, you'd probably be calling for backup. with the additional cost of the PAX, the difficulty locating a place that has a replacement and the proper equipment and trained people, it being opened after hours or sunday (?), and also some of the negative attributes that another poster pointed out technically, i'm sorry, i'd have to pass.

    if they make sense for some people, it's because they factored in everything, which I highly doubt they have... even as another poster has mentioned, people just aren't seeing the value in the non-PAX conventional RFT.

    so we are back to the argument that tire pressure monitoring hits the proper location on the value/cost/complexity/safety space for just about everyone...
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    The reason the government is requiring TPMS on all cars is more due to saving our precious natural resources than safety. A properly inflated tire rolls easier and saves gas. Duh. :D
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    That's true too. But the Ford Explorer / Firestone debacle was a huge political motivator. Tread separation caused by a combnination of low tire pressure and overloading was a big factor there, and the aftermath sent shockwaves through the industry - and the government. NHTSA cited accident prevention and fuel economy savings in equal measure as justifications for TPMS.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Let's just pray that people will actually pay attention to the TPMS warning lights and fill up their tires. I don't want to tell you how many times I get into some other cars and warning lights and buzzers are clanging from "low windshield fluid" to the full "check engine" light. I think the tolerance on most of the current TPMS and when they warn is set too low as well and this will train more people to wait until the warning blows before they will even pull out a tire pressure guage. Sad, really.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    hey you have a point. once a lady in a high-end sedan had a very very very low tire. i catch her in the parking lot getting into her car as i'm loading my groceries. i say excuse me, i'd like to point out to you that you have a very low tire and it is dangerous, very dangerous to drive on it. you COULD make it across the street and get it repaired at that service station, but don't go any further than that.

    she blew me off by say, ahh thanks, but i'm late for a tennis date.
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Exactly. I know most of the posters here and on other auto boards are enthusiasts and we actually care about our cars and equipment and pay attention to this stuff because we are passionate about it. Even tho we poke fun at each other from time to time and argue like we really mean it, at the end of the day we take care of business our own way, but at least we take care of business. Most car owners could care less and really don't take very good care of their cars at all. Continuing to "dumb down" the driving experience and make it almost fool-proof is the wave and that's too bad. These advancements in run flat technology, on board computers, bluetooth connectivity, GPS NAV, Lane Guidance, ABS, VDC, Laser cruise, 10 airbags, etc. have created a false sense of security that the car driver is merely PART OF THE EQUATION when in reality they are still supposed to be the ONE IN CONTROL!! Anyway, user777, the chick probably had her tennis pro fill up the tire... :sick:
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    if she made it to the lesson. honestly, the thing was so low, the rim was almost on the ground.

    i tried to save her lots of $$$, inconvenience, her life, someone else's life. she didn't care to even look at the tire. :sick:

    at the minimum, she needed a new tire because of her attitude, i'm sure of that.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    In the scenario like you described with Tennis Lady, RFTs of any kind probably wouldn't have helped either. With a mentality like the one it sounded like she had, she probably would have driven a car equipped with RFTs until the tire disintegrated.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    I think they make some tennis courts out of recycled tires, so if she disintegrated that tire maybe there is a good ending to the story afterall. :)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Good thought. ;)
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Mr cstiles, would you speak with your dealer regarding the dropping of PAX for 2008. Reports are that PAX is indeed making a return appearance in '08 on the Odyssey. Go to odyclub.com for information. Thank you.
  • barneymbarneym Member Posts: 32
    I think everyone here will agree that the PAX system has its pros and cons. The thing that rubs me the wrong way in particular is the fact that such a polarizing system is standard on the Touring edition. I really don't see any reason why Honda just can't make the PAX system available as a Dealer Installed Option like so many other of their options. That way we can all be happy. Those who really need the extra security can add them on, and those who would rather go without can do so.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    That's good news and hopefully a harbinger for the future of this product. I'll definitely talk to the dealer about this. If they offer the tires on the Accord as well, that will be a significant development. Thanks for passing this on.

    When the PAX tires become available for order on Tire Rack, that will be the real symbol that this product has reached some level of crtical mass.
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Yep, TireRack is the bomb. I concur with that.
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Member Posts: 50
    barneym,

    It's not realistic to have the PAX system as a dealer-installed option. The significantly heavier PAX wheels require changes to the normal suspension system to accommodate the additional unsprung weight.

    Regards, JEff
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Yes, this simple theory has been discussed at length and isn't a simple option as Jeff points out.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    It doesn't have to be a dealer-installed option. For example, I can order a BMW with or without i-Drive. I can order an Audi with or without a sports suspension. I can order an Acura RL with or without PAX, depending on the package specified. The list goes on and on in terms of similar options for the cusomter, depending on the make and model of car. If Honda truly wanted to make PAX an option or part of a specified package on the Ody Touring (or Accord, for that matter), they can choose to do so. It does represent more cost, complexity, and infrastructure, but it is doable and replicated daily by virtually every car maker.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter would like to talk to owners of run-flat tires. Please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than June 25, 2007 with your daytime contact information.
  • red_sox999red_sox999 Member Posts: 21
    Is it a major publication or network? :)
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    Reply and find out! ;)
  • nojonesnojones Member Posts: 13
    I have a 2005 Honda Odyssey touring. My front tires were bald at 12k miles. I replaced them. Michelin agreed to pay half. The honda dealer replaced the whole tire and rim assembly and charged me $270.
    I now have 25k miles on the car. The front tires are bald again. Michelin agree to pay 50% of the cost. The dealer now can replace just the tires. They charged me $320. They had the car for seven hours AND they chipped my rims in 14 places. They will be buying me new rims. (I just got the car back last night).

    These tires may work well and not leave me on the freeway if I get a flat, but it would be cheaper to put normal rims on the car and ruin a rim and tire every time I get a flat. The customer service surrounding getting a tire replaced is insane. Honda has never offered to pitch in to replace the tires. IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT BUYING A TOURING ODYSSEY- DON'T DO IT.

    I will be contacting the class action attorney today and offer an affidavit based on my experiences.
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    That's bad and sounds like your dealer's service department needs some help. I still don't understand this wear issue and why you would be having those issues with the same tires I have on my '06. I have 16,000 miles now and my tires have been rotated once and show minimal wear and have absolutely no edge wear to speak of(I know that premature edge wear is an issue). All of the pattern and sipping is there as if they were new. Where are you at and are the roads abnormally abrasive? I'm in Chicago and we have taken a few road trips with the farthest to Maine and back. No flats, no issues and beyond a few quirky things my wife still loves the Touring. :D
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Did you rotate your tires?
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    if the fronts are wearing on the sides, it's probably alignment, inflation or both.
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    I agree Chirp. I don't understand all the problems people are reporting about PAX tires. I'd love to know the true percentage of people getting premature wear. Reading boards doesn't work because you usually only hear the negative. My run flats are wearing normall. However, I check tire pressure every two weeks (and keep them slightly over inflated to combat side wear). Also, I made sure the dealer did a four tire allignment BEFORE I took possesion of the car. The toe was slightly out which would have done early wear.

    Bottom line; the sidewalls on these tires are stiffer then normal, maybe that makes them less forgiving. But, WE, as the owner must take responsibility to check tire pressure, allignment, and do rotations. So many people ignore their tires and then complain when the wear out early.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Bottom line; the sidewalls on these tires are stiffer then normal, maybe that makes them less forgiving."

    I may be wrong but I don't believe that is the case with the PAX tires. The sidewall used on these tires is supposedly just as "soft" and compliant as those used on regular GFTs.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    they are not as stiff as other run flat technology, however, they are definitely stiffer. I got that info from Michelin website (but I don't have a link, sorry)

    Regardless, it's just speculation on my part as to whether this is a contributing factor. I often read about people getting premature wear with these PAX tires, but it's not everyone (certainly not me), so I'm left wondering if this is just a normal percentage like any tire. In other words, user error caused by poor maintenance results in a certain percentage of ALL tires to fail early. These PAX tires are a different technology and more expensive, so when they wear out early maybe people make more noise then when it happens with "regular" tires.

    Aside from the slightly stiffer sidewall and locking mechanism on the bead, they are just normal tires. The ring is unique but that's INSIDE and plays no role when the tire has air in it. So where is the common cause? I suspect there isn't one.
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Yep, I expect at this point to get 40,000 on this first set of Michelin Energy PAX. I will pay the premium for set number 2 which will take me to the end of our Touring ride. We normally only keep our cars for 60-70K. Seeing as I paid under $34,000 for this brand new Touring(NAV/RES and Delivery less TTL) a year ago it has been a good deal for us. If I have to pay $1,000 for a new set of tires it's no biggie. It's worth every penny to me. :)
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    However, I check tire pressure every two weeks (and keep them slightly over inflated to combat side wear).

    Great! But by "keeping them slightly overinflated to combat side wear" you seem to be acknowledging a potential problem. Over-inflation carries its own problems (hard ride, center wear.) Good wear should be available at the vehicle manufacturer's specified pressure. A carefully maintained and driven minivan tire should be capable of 50k miles. 40k seems average to me.

    Also, I made sure the dealer did a four tire allignment BEFORE I took possesion of the car. The toe was slightly out which would have done early wear.

    Also admirable. But this shouldn't be necessary upon delivery. I wouldn't fault any new-car buyer for failing to do the same. You shouldn't have to perform maintenance on a brand new car.

    Bottom line; the sidewalls on these tires are stiffer then normal, maybe that makes them less forgiving.

    PAX sidewalls are stiffer than regular tires, but they are also softer than regular RFTs. The sidewalls are also shaped and loaded differently due to the unique tire bead.

    Back to back tests I've conducted between a PAX and non-PAX Odyssey showed the non-PAX van to ride softer. In the time available, it was hard to tell whether that was due to somewhat higher PAX sidewall stiffness or higher PAX unsprung weight. A regular Odyssey tire/wheel weighed 50 lbs, while the PAX assembly weighed 75 lbs. - each.

    25 lbs. more per corner plays heck with toe-in (alignment) stability and steering shake. Look at the tie rod end on your Touring. That enlarged "mass damper" isn't present on regular Odysseys, indicating sensitivity to the additional PAX mass.

    You're right about not being able to tell exactly what is going on here, but I can tell you that just about every car with a run-flat tire, be it PAX or the regular SST kind (self-supporting tire), has a thread like this on Edmunds with plenty of people making the same complaints. Threads about cars without RFTs have fewer posts about tire problems and concerns, let alone threads dedicated to tire problems and concerns.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    you plan to turn this car that quickly?

    60K is just 4 years on a vehicle driven 15K/yr. the way to really get value out of the vehicle is to hold onto it well past 100K. 150K / 200K?

    tell your oldest, it's the minivan he/she will get. they'll look at you like your nuts. ;)
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    My 16 year old son is driving his great uncles hand-me-down 1996 Lincoln Town Car and loves it. He wants no part of the van :)
  • rv65rv65 Member Posts: 1,076
    Well guys the touring will now have PAX tires as optional. Perfect for those who wanted a touring but no pax tires.
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