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Comments
The revised Toyota 1.8 (see xD) offers 126HP (at this time), but will be geared more for economy in the Corolla.
Corolla doesn't sell on HP, like Camry. But the going rate in this class is 140-160HP for the BASE engine. Also considering the Civic is at 32/40 (2007) in economy, with 18 more HP, Toyota will get the engines up to date.
I think Honda going to 140HP on even the DX Civic caught Toyota off-guard, while maintaining high economy. :surprise:
Also consider the 2.0 engine will power the Toyota Blade (Matrix) replacement, and the Mazda3 has been benchmarked (widely reported) for that vehicle, and the 3 goes over 150HP, a power increase is likely.
My guess is the 1.8 goes to 130HP, EPA is 29/39, which should give it a slight lead over the 2008 Civic numbers.
It could gain that 1-2 MPG with a CVT or 5-speed, and Dual VVTi.
Word of the 2.0 Valvematic complicates possibilities.
Toyota knows it's compact vehicles sell on economy more than power, but the Blade would definitely become more competitive with the 2.0. And a 130HP Corolla is not a long-term, solution given the competitive market it competes in.
But Toyota history doesn't favor two engines for the Corolla, as this cuts profit margins in building more model/trim variations for the car, and with the successful formula for the current car.
Blade may only get the 2.0, and use it as a step-up vehicle from the Corolla.
The slightly upgraded 1.8 could be a hold-over engine until the 2.0 can be fully implemented next year. It would probably take 12-18 months to have enough 2.0 for all vehicles. The xD and Corolla maybe all 2.0 by the 2010 model year. :confuse:
It would make sense for Toyota to use one engine in two compact vehicles (xD and Yaris), and the other in two (Corolla and Blade).
OR Toyota can add the 2.0 to the xB, without losing much power, but gaining economy (and going to a 5-speed tranny or CVT for 2010)?
I'm rambling with speculation, I know.
DrFill
IME Civic is the overall "best in class" with Mazda 3 being the runner-up, but more sporty, "grown-up feel" choice. As I already have a Toyota to service, I'd rather stay with Scion/Toyota.
Currently (with incentive/rebate) Corolla is about $2000 cheaper than Civic, which is significant in this price range. In fact TMV of Corolla is roughly the same or higher than Yaris!? With less features, less power, lower price, quirks, and older design Corolla isn't really competative with Civic.
I don't see how Toyota could release a new Corolla that is inferior to Civic yet higher priced higher. Yet I don't see Toyota pricing the new Corolla close to Yaris either. So the squeeze is on Toyota to produce something at least on par with Civic.
But consider that as the current Civic version ages, the deals street prices should soften a bit. Which is why I see the pressure being on Toyota even more to produce a "best in class" Corolla (that will no doubt have "stiff" street pricing the first year or two).
128hp @ 6000 (not 126)
125 foot pounds @ 4400
EPA rating: 27/33
All numbers most current EPA ratings standards.
1. Lower prices/incentives
2. Bigger back seat
3. Larger trunk
4. Split-folding rear seats on all models(Have to get a Civic EX)
5. Trac and VSC is available (Hard to find, but I've seen them)
6. Conventional Dash design (Civic's is a deal-breaker for some drivers)
The Corolla is more competitive than you think. I have, personally, brought many Corolla owners into the fold comparing the two.
DrFill
It would've killed my flow (I was rollin'!) to put two different sets of numbers out thur.
DrFill
I think mpg is more important than power in a Corolla. If the Corolla can get better mileage than the Civic with around the same or even lower HP than the Civic, it will be more important than being faster than a Civic or exactly matching HP with a Civic.
Corolla is not just lower on steam than Civic, but it's lower vs all competitors. That can be a problem to address with a redesign. Staying at the bottom doesn't sound like a plan to me. Toyota's Dual VVTi can add power AND economy.
DrFill
And it will make a more competitive car, on paper. Fortunately, Corolla has already has the people behind it.
DrFill
I have a Sienna for hauling, have never used the fold down seats, let alone split fold in my 626 in 6 years.
The Corolla back seat is 2 inches wider, but has 1 inch less leg room (Consumers Report). I'd call it a wash in terms of back seat room.
Dash design is probably an individual thing, most people learn to adapt to such (like center dash on Yaris) quickly (Edmunds owner comments).
When similarly equipped with additional air bags, ABS, VSC, and mats the price difference between Corolla LE and Civic LX (after incentives/rebates) is only $500 (Edmunds TMV), yet Corolla lacks remote entry. And Civic upgrades to 5A from 4A, higher owner satisfaction (Consumer Report), shorter/less mushy braking (Consumer Report/above comments), and more comfortable driving position (well documented).
I'm eager to see what Toyota can do with the new Corolla, after six year its losing its grip on the competition.
The Civic has a clear powertrain advantage, but is about 150lbs heavier.
The Corolla and Civic are seperated more by mission than anything else. The Civic is sporty and more youthful, aggressive. The Corolla is softer, quieter, more conservative and genteel.
DrFill
Mackabee
Mackabee
:shades:
Mackabee
It was also not comfortable to sit and drive in. They need to address those issues before they worry about making it faster.
and just for kicks:
reasons for buying the civic over the corolla.
1.more efficient engine (gets similar mpg on a more powerful engine in a heavier chassis, a true testament to honda's engineering)
2. Responsive, un-mushy braking.
3. Better safety ratings and abs
4. Handles worlds better, with much less body lean.
5. highest end model give you disc brakes
6. cooler styling. :P
i know some of these things will be counteracted by the new corolla, but there are something that i don't think will change. (handling: it'll probably get better, but it wont be the benchmark like a few posters were asking in a few posts prior. When even car mags like car and driver state that the ride of the mazda 3 is a bit stiff, i doubt that toyota would want to get even remotely competative in that regard.)
DrFill: the jetta can be had for 16k and offer much more content than the current corolla offers. Granted you pay for it with a loss in economy, but a 17k price tag saves you money on car payments, and gets you a longer warranty and the absolute best interior in the price range. Even the top level mazda 3 hatch can be had for less than 20k.
Corolla currently offers $750-1000, but no rate.
Very few economy cars sell without an incentive.
There are reasons to buy either car, and they both are selling very well, so problems can't be that severe.
Americans don't buy cars for handling. That is a niche market for economy cars. That's why Toyota ignores cutting-edge handling.
DrFill
maybe the new generation will change that? me, i'm interested in the blade and how it will stack up.
I don't think either car has ever NEEDED an incentive. If ever a small car could go without, these two could.
DrFill
i did like the old corolla gt-s, but it was still no crx. the supra was amazing; you could turbo that thing way past the factory settings and the block would hold up! (i've seen stock supra blocks hold up even after making over 600hp to the wheels! :surprise: )
alas for what toyota could have been...
That would be easy as pie.
Maybe this sub-$20k hybrid Honda is working on will be the Next CRX? Word on the street is the CRX is coming back. :shades:
DrFill
I could care less what the sales of each are, quality of available dealerships is vastly more important. Very weak dealer networks is what keeps me away from Mazda, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, and all the domestics. :sick:
I agree the torque is the key (and that Corolla's engine gets rough/noisy at high rpms). Just look at Rabbit TDI hp, torque, and 0-60 times. My oldest stepson just graduated from college and gave his 2001 5M, 120K mile Plymouth Neon to his 16 year old brother. I drove it about 130 miles today. Boy does that put all this Civic vs. Corolla back in perspective! The Neon is very crudely designed and built, with no low end torque from a 2.0L engine.
I don't believe that Americans are totally insensitive to handling, good or bad. Its just not as high a priority here as in Europe or the Far East.
So we've had our chances with a sports engine from Toyota, and the masses rejected them. It's a great engine, if you are gonna run 5000 RPM all day, and it lead to class leading economy and acceleration numbers in MT 2005 small car comparison.
DrFill
Um... you are joking, right?
Remember the three certainties in life: Death, tax, and a boring design for the Corolla!
i dunno about a new crx. its has to be legendary, because if it isn't people will eat honda up alive. you know how ridiculous people can get when expectations are not met.
Sub-$20k price
Plenty of hatchback space to store batteries.
CRX Brand equity. It even had a history of super-efficient engines, with the HF.
Honda should still offer it with the Civic's engine, doh. It's a car that really shouldn't have left the lineup. The Fit has taken it's place. I'd rather have the CRX.
DrFill
i dunno, i didn't realize their hybrid was going to be a hatch?!
i guess i just can't imagine the return of the crx in a hybrid guise...if they wanted fuel efficiency, they should re-release a crx hf like you mentioned...but also offer a regular version along with it.
Lexus box modelo 2000 to 2005 tranfer the design to corolla 2003, then corolla 2003 tranfer the design to yaris o echo 2006.
Now is the same.... Lexus and Camry tranfer the box to corolla 2008, and then in 2011 corolla tranfer the box to Echo.
This design have some logic if you think about that Toyota is more conservative than Honda or Mazda designs.
Tell me your point of view
The interior sure looks like the one on the pictures that have been circulating on the net lately.
Here's another video, this of the Camry that's sold in two versions in other countries. Sure looks a LOT nicer that our version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjMb9tMgPSs&mode=related&search=
This interesting that Toyota is considering an AWD V6 corolla. The fact that Toyota has been swapping know-how with Subaru, particularly Subaru's AWD know-how only furthers my suspicions:
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/industry/toyota-and-subaru-swapping-know-how
The second they announce it im putting my deposit down.
Also, I can't fathom that Toyota would bring us a Corolla V6/AWD. The company uses waaaayyy too much starch in their collars to ever do anything like that. Here's to hoping I'm wrong, though!
Its sure does seem, though, that Toyota's 2.5L and 3.0L GR engines are underutilized in the NA market, and I'd love for a V6 Corolla to force Lexus to use the 3.0 GR as the base engine in the IS...
How about a 1.6 in the Corolla? Seems that is the direction we need to be going in.
come one you guys a v-6 corolla with awd? since when did toyota get jealous of the r32 or other rally-ish machines?
whats next? a turbocharged v-8?
puh lease.
totally agree. the 2.5 would have been a great choice for the camry se, given its 'sporting' pretensions and midpack price...it would have offered better (if only slightly) fuel economy than the v6 currently in the camry, but better performance than the 4 cyl. It could have been an exclusive engine or something.
Mackabee
come one you guys a v-6 corolla with awd? since when did toyota get jealous of the r32 or other rally-ish machines?
whats next? a turbocharged v-8?
puh lease."
Check around the web. Type AWD V6 Corolla into any search engine. Whether it happens or not, who knows, but this rumor has been in circulation for a long time now
From Wikipeida:
"The Auris will be marketed to the U.S in late 2008 as a 2009 model, and will replace the outgoing Toyota Matrix, which will be discontinued after 2008. It will be called the Toyota Blade."
Mack
Back to Corolla... I'm soooo crossing my fingers for a real Corolla hatch, as well as a Matrix replacement. We shall see.
Mackabee