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Again, the Canadian market is far different from the American market. The Canadian market is more similar to Europe in the popularity of the compact cars. Thus car manufacturers will are more likely to offer luxury items in a compact up there. Car manufacturers have been selling upgraded compacts in Canada for years. The Civic has had a leather option available there for example.
2008 Honda Civic 5AT
New EPA MPG
New MPG tests are more realistic
Regular Gasoline
City 25
Combined 29
Hwy 36
2008 Toyota Corolla 4AT
Regular Gasoline
City 26
Combined 29
Hwy 35
Fuel Economics
Cost to drive 25 Miles $2.59 $2.59
Fuel to Drive 25 Miles 0.86 gal 0.86 gal
Cost of a Fill-up ..........TBA ........ $35.76
Miles on a Tank ......... TBA ....... 345 miles
Tank Size ................. TBA ....... 13.2 gal
Annual Fuel Cost* $1558 $1558
Based on 45% highway driving, 55% city driving, 15000 miles/year and Reg.: $3.01 per gallon
Click to use your gas prices and annual miles
Energy Impact Score
Annual Petroleum Consumption
(1 barrel=42 gallons)
11.8 barrels 11.8 barrels
Carbon Footprint
Annual Tons of CO2 Emitted 6.3 6.3
Wher is the benefit of a 5AT vs a 4AT?
That being said, if the new Valvematic that soon will be on every new Toyota engine, comes out and adds 10% to the FE across the board then there's a real benefit. But now we're back to business and economic considerations. Profit and Expense and Pricing.
After 2 yrs when this new Corolla model has paid for itself and it's development costs have been covered then a new more expensive, more efficient engine can be added without increasing the price of the vehicle.
Is it a huge difference? No. I think some people make more out of the benefit of a 5AT vs. a 4AT on a low-powered car than is there in the real world of A-to-B commuting, the typical use for cars like the Corolla.
Canada has had more diesels while the US has had more gassers? Uh, No
Canada has had more upscale features while the US has not? Uh, No
Canada uses the metric system and the US does not? Uh, OK
Please, you're just making things up now. It's referred to as the NADM for a reason.
Now 5-speeds are expected on new designs and the Corolla is lagging behind for a "new" model.
Cars with smaller engines benefit most with more gears. It isn't just the top gear, but the more closely spaced gears in between make for smoother acceleration without huge RPM changes between gears. Much more refined drive and the car stays in it's power band when you are trying to get on the freeway and you still have a tall gear left over for quiet highway cruising.
Ironically, cars with bigger engines that don't need gears to be as closely spaced are the ones that are getting 5 and 6-speeds in many cases. The Rav4 has a 5-speed with the V6 and 4-speed with the 4 cylinder when it would be more practical if it was the opposite.
Lexus with 7 speeds and a V8? You shouldn't even be able to feel the gears change at all.
1.8 liter 4 cylinder with only 4 speeds? Crude and dated for a newly designed 2009 model.
American manufacturers thought nothing mattered except which vehicle makes more money for many years too. So they did the same thing you're advising to keep counting the money and declaring a winner. They followed your advice and now they're in the hole.
The big difference is that Toyota has been doing this for nearly 30 years also, just better than Detroit. They have always been blasted for selling vanilla ice cream....because the vast majority of the US buying public likes vanilla ice cream. On the domestic boards there's intense frustration with both Toyota and Honda because of their bland styling ( til late ), tiny putt-putt engines, and appliance-type appeal.
That's what's made the two so successful. It's now being copied by Hyundai.
Again it's a HUGE market that can cater to all tastes and desires. Yours is for more rather than less so maybe Mazda or Honda is the better choice. This is good because you can be satisfied and still the bulk of the population can be satisfied as well.
Again this has everything to do with the normal distribution bell curve and profits..nothing more.
Outside of beauty pageant awards what's the benefit to Mr/Mrs America of a 5AT over a 4AT?
City 27
Combined 30
Hwy 35
...on what will be a bigger vehicle then even with an 'outdated' 4AT the Corolla comes out ahead econmy-wise.
The market 'needs' both options in order to satisfy both the enthusiasts and the cost-conscious. This is good.
I can't comment on price in mid-atlantic area any more than I can comment on 1st hand experience in Japan.....what is available here [practically] to me in FL is priced higher than the civic and is outdated...should have a better offering for 09 after several years to work on this.....i don't think the 09 will be competitive...I know they can do better than tweak the same engine and keep the same trans....throw a camry engine in for the upper models..and add new sheetmetal and lights and call it 'new'....honda did a complete re-design for the 06 and up..I know Toyota can do the same after doing things like the prius..and other hybrid work....and ditching one of their best samll cars..believe it or not, the echo.......
1) improved acceleration, since you can keep the engine in the most efficient rev range for acceleration.
2) Better freeway fuel economy, since with a 5AT you can use a gear ratio in the highest gear for lower engine revs without sacrificing performance when you accelerate at freeway speeds.
That's why Honda's development of the compact 5AT unit for its Civic line was such a big breakthrough; I hope that Toyota will offer soon a similar compact 5AT for the Yaris and Corolla and the Scion xB and xD models, especially with today's high fuel prices.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/01/business/NA-FIN-US-Toyota-Corolla.php
I have a question to both Chief engineers Mr Shinichi Yasui and David Terai of Corolla and Matrix respectively.
Ummh . What exactly did you engineer in these cars?
Ummh.. do we really need engineering to produce these cars? Can't we use the old drawing? I dont see any difference anyway.
I nearly fell off my seat after reading this. If youre having your meal and planning to read the article, please stop eating because you might choke with laughter.
Ummh.... Mr Engineer David Terai ... how is this going to appeal to younger buyers sir. Do you think that STICK ON , TACKY body parts such as the front spoiler , side rocker panels will appeal to the younger buyers? Does TORSION BEAM rear suspension appeal to younger buyers? Does whacky, retarded, body lines that you cant figure out if it was designed here or in Mars appeal to younger buyers?
I don't have the time and energy to keep banging my head against the wall.
What part of Corolla outsells Civic do you guys don't understand?
Mackabee
Really ? Get out of here!
Ummh... Mr Chief Engineer sir, Which Camry are we talking about here, the 2.4L or the 3.5L? Well, if it was the 2.4L, it certainly is not a feat that you can be proud off considering that its heavier than the Corolla.
Now I know why we got a badly redesigned Corolla.
When did I say the Corolla would be available with heated seats?
Mackabee
Again the old outdated Gen9 Corolla outsells the wonderful new Civic. That's all that counts. Nothing more. If certain buyers don't feel it suits them then there are plenty of options available. If the bulk of the buying public wants vanilla ice cream then the Corolla will continue to crush all the others.
It's very very simple.
We had this same discussion two years ago before the Camry came out and you predicted it would be a loser. Well if being No 1 in sales and making tons of money is losing, then point me in that direction. So far you're 0-1 in your predictions.
Here is mine. The new Corolla will astound/frustrate the enthusiasts because it will continue to trounce the Civic ( and all the rest ) even with only nominal changes. That's just what was intended.
It was said, that since the new civic design came out, the new corolla was moved back another year or so to make some changes whether or not this is true. Model year 2005 should have been the mid model refresh, but that never happen.
My question is, " Is this all that Toyota could come up with in 6 years of the older model ? What in tar nations took so long just for this minor refresh anyway ?
How long now for another so called make over or minor refresh ? Another 6 years. It took them that long for this disappointment, and not something that we could all agree on that it was worth the wait ? Goodness Toyota, what happen to you and this long in coming minor refresh anyway ?
Not this again,
I think I've responded to this, in this thread, at least 5 times previously. Your statement is one of those urban internet myths that 'if you see it on the internet it must be true' sort of things.
Here are the real facts. This design was finished over 2-1/2 years ago. That's one full year before the the Civic debuted. Nothing changed since then. In Europe this design launched on time 18 mos ago. In Australia this design launched 12 months ago. In NA this design ran into the Tundra launch ( so it was pushed back a year ). Except for the powertrains this NA vehicle is the same one being sold in Europe and Austrailia.
The delay had nothing to do with the Civic. It had only to do with being run over by the the Tundra. The current 'outdated' Corolla has been killing the wonderful new Civic for over a year now. There's no urgency to change especially since the Tundra had the entire spotlight.
In addition, auto designs, tooling, production, logistics, supply decisions are made 4-7 yrs in advance. This isn't like repainting your room. It can't be changed 'on the fly' like this myth would have you believe. The 2012 3 yr 'refresh' is finished already. The Gen11 Corolla for 2014 is probably well under way and depending on how significant the changes, it may be closed to finished in some aspects.
en·thu·si·ast Listen to the pronunciation of enthusiast
Pronunciation:
\-ˌast, -əst\
Function:
noun
Date:
1570
: a person filled with enthusiasm: as a: one who is ardently attached to a cause, object, or pursuit b: one who tends to become ardently absorbed in an interest
0-60 times
8.5
8.9
oooohh. I'm impressed.
link title
Again like the other similar comments you are not viewing this like a business decision.
It is just business, nothing more. It is not a beauty pageant.
The Corolla intentionally is designed to appeal to the bulk of the buying public by being very very traditional, affordable and reliable. As a factory unit it is not intended for the 'zoom-zoom' or 'drifting' crowd. Those mods can be done but out of the factory it is nintended to appeal to Middle America ( Europe/Australia ) that just wants a competitive vehicle that they can forget about.
Your statement above is trying to put a square peg into a round hole. Why? This vehicle is by far the most profitable small vehicle in the world. Why would anyone want to change that formula?
It's only about business. Nothing more.
The Fit is one of the rare cases in which the crtitics voting for the JCOTY and the buying public agreed. The Civic? It's been a forgotten car in Japan - you hardly ever see one in the streets over there.
I know that this is a Corolla thread, but as a matter of interest, these are the Japan COTY winners since 2000:
2000: Civic
2001: Fit
2002: Accord
2003: Legacy
2004: Legend (Acura RL)
2005: Roadster (Miata)
2006: LS460
2007: TBA
All good cars, except that among these only the Fit and Legacy have sold in any meangful volume in Japan. The Accord and Civic have been unbelievable flops in that country, barely exceeding 1000 units sold in a month. The last three selections are not intended to be high volume vehicles anyway.
Ironically for my theory, when Toyota last won the JCOTY, they hit a big one in the sales. It was in 1999 with the Vitz/Platz/FunCarGo, known as the Yaris line in the rest of the world.
Maybe we could wait to predict doom and gloom for the new Corolla until it's available to drive. Maybe it will have an improved ride, with superior smoothness and NVH for its class, and improved handling. Maybe the new engine will be well-suited for the car and the 4AT (and 5MT). Maybe it will have the best crash scores in its class. Maybe the driving position will (finally!) be comfortable for all or nearly all drivers. Maybe it will have even more of what most people are looking for in a small car, and will sell like hotcakes.
Or maybe not. But it's a little early I think to be so negative about the car. There's plenty of time for that after we know what it's like to drive.
By the way, when the 10th-gen Corolla was released in Japan back in 2006 (NZE140 - different from the NA Corolla to be released, which is E150), all the critics fell asleep at its steering wheel. Me, I fell asleep before driving off the lot, and can barely keep my eyes open talking about it right now. And guess which car has been the number one selling in Japan since then (excluding the kei-class)?
The hint is that its name starts with a "C."
:shades:
Toyota Racing Development Racing?
The history of the tuner movement and sport compact car enthusiasts has revolved around Japanese cars of Corolla size. Despite the Civic, Sentra, Impreza, Lancer are all more popular than Corolla to modify, I find no oxymoron with TRD and Corolla being linked.
TRD offers parts for racing and for street for nearly the entire range of Toyota vehicles.
Great! (yes I'm being sarcastic)
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What do y'all think about AWD if it were optional on the Corolla?
I expect it would be plug and play since platform is closely shared between Matrix and Corolla.
But the problem is the 2.4 is technologically very dated now - it should have been updated for the Camry line by now too. This could have been the perfect opportunity to update this engine for both model lines, had Toyota only seized it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
With Toyota claiming a 0-60 in 8.1 seconds will the XRS's fuel economy be better? I think I read somewhere it was projected to be the same as the Camry's (21 city/31 hwy). Shouldn't it improve even just a little? :confuse:
Will pricing for the XRS be around the same as the SE-R? A 2008 SE-R MSRP with destination and no options is $20,305. Fully loaded MSRP $22,660. In the XRS's favor, it has optional stability control, Nav, and bluetooth, which also fully loaded might make the price a lot higher.
Any other Manufacturer coming out with a compact offered with a midsize 4 banger engine? I think it's a great idea on account of rising gas prices!
However, the history of the Corolla is that its most amazing advancement is in precisely where it does not typically meet the eyes nor does it show in the catalog specs. Those in the know, especially those of us who have worked in the automotive manufacturing and engineering, were blown away when the 9th generation Corolla was released. The way it has been engineered and assembled was a science of the maximum ROI while preserving other important aspects such as economy and reliability. Such engineering and manufacturing techniques do not show up in obvious manners, but they are precisely what makes this company called Toyota successful. I used to work for a competitor of Toyota, and I remember hearing a senior manager say, "There is no way we can imitate this - amazing."
Horsepower, how many gears in a transmission, the design of suspension, etc., are easy. Anyone can come up with those with little efforts. Maximizing the ROI while preserving quality - now that's a know-how few have mastered.
I repeat - it's a piece of cake for automotive engineering and manufacturing folks to come up with lofty-sounding machine pieces that make so-called auto enthusiasts salivate. What is difficult is to make your product in such a way to make your company a lot of money without sacrificing quality.
2009
The 09 is 2.5 inches wider, the roof line is lower, the interior is totally different. So how can you say this is not a re-design?
Waiting almost 6 long years and you would have thought it would be something to write home to mother about, but not this. No way. Looks like a refresh pure and simple. At least they could have given us a better interior like the European corolla.
Those super dupper after thought, simple tack on molding look cheap and if Toyota could not find a way to give the look without a tack on, then something is wrong with the design team.
Honda civic was an interesting totally different make over, this corolla is not.
I took my deposit back because I was hoping for a nice change, a very nice interior like photos that I saw prior to SEMA and then Toyota gave the American market a dumb down version instead. Nope, this is a refresh only.
If those that think this is any different, than you are easly taken by the hype from the marketing con from Toyota.
Both the platforms and the engines/drivetrains have about a 10 yr life cycle consisting of two generations each. The platform and drivetrain life cycles often overlap by about 5 yrs.
Body ( yr )
1
2
3
4...refresh
5
6...MCE ( Mid Cycle Enhancement )
7
8...refresh
9
10
In Feb we will be starting yr #7 of this 'general' platform. As mackabee noted there are enough new changes in the platform of this Gen10 that the MCE could be considered 'all new'.
The MCE should have been done last spring but was pushed back. Does that mean that the current Gen will last only 4 yrs? None of us know.
Since noone in the public has seen the new model in its various forms I'd say your presumptions are somewhat premature. It's going to be a killer IMHO.
Oh btw I think that there will be a euro-styled model but the public will be asked to pay euro-style money for it also.$24000-$27000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But as we noted several times previously this is not where the money is. The money is in $17000 Base models. For all the 'needs' and 'desires' of the enthusiasts high-end low volume models are for the niche players. For some reason you think Toyota made a 'mistake' in this design. How about they did it intentionally in order to generate more volume ( profits ) from the general population.
In the end it's only about money. Whichever company has the most at the end of the year is the winner.
:shades: