2009 Toyota Corolla

mcdawgg · February 2008

Anybody see my post about trunk space? Is it true the new Corolla has more trunk space than the 07-present Camry?

mackabee · February 2008

I don't know, I haven't measured either one but the Camry trunk looks bigger than the Corolla's to me.
Mack

giantkiller · February 2008

It looks like the Civic is a better value compared to the Corolla across all their lineup. I just went and compared the Civic LX auto without option vs the Corolla LE auto without option. Price difference between the two is 500 bucks. The Corolla is cheaper but it lacks the alloy wheel, independent suspension, 5AT, keyless entry and cruise control as far as I can remember. But then again all Corolla has the "GARBAGE" all weather guard and/or extra garbage miles tucked into the car window sticker to pad the price so all in all it will offset the difference. Then again in a couple of months they're gonna lower the price through dealer incentive . Say, 1000 off plus the "correction" rebate because Toyota will get burn again after testing the water. Now this gullible Toyota fanboys will think they have a good deal here but you dont have to use a magnifying glass to find something wrong about this deal.
Change topic. Now to all Toyota salesman posting here. It's only natural for the Corolla to be compared to the Civic. They're in the same class and it's their biggest competitor. Instead of being afraid about consumers posting their comparison result, try to do your own research about this POS waiting to happen Corolla and help us decide for it.

jaxs1 · February 2008

The 2008 Civic doesn't have stability control unless you get an Si, so you have to get a Corolla if you want that right now. There is a reasonable chance other Civics will have it by the 2009 models since the Civic is due for the mid cycle update.

nippononly · February 2008

about the "are we still comparing Corolla to Civic?" comment is in many cases, Civic will be the ONLY car compared to the Corolla. If Toyota slaps a $1000 rebate or a $199/month promo lease on the Corolla beginning with the holiday sales this summer and then on through the fall, I suspect Corolla will sell as well as Civic. If not, I think Civic will pull ahead in the sales race. Corolla just isn't as good a value as it was in, say, 2003. OTOH, the '08 Civic is actually a BETTER value than the '01-03 Civic was.

kdhspyder · February 2008

You keep bringing up this same argument everytime Toyota launches a new vehicle. Your entire complaint is not against Toyota but against the distributor GST which adds those useless 'extras'. The solution is simple, shop in another region it's done all the time.

The rest of your rant is..... well.....

kdhspyder · February 2008

I'll have to disagree on the value statement.

This Gen10 is much a much better value than the last Gen9. It's bigger, more powerful ( slightly ) with the same fuel economy and more safety features for nearly the same price as the outgoing model. Comparing the top trim and saying 'Wow $22000 for a Corolla??' is correct but it's limited to a very small segment of the production. These model will likely are the few uber-profitable units for a few specialized demanders.

The bulk of the sales still will be in the $17000-$20000 range, meaning $15000 to $19000 after the buyers work their magic on the dealers. This is roughly the current price levels of the outgoing model. The new model is far better than the last one.

backy · February 2008

Civic LX does NOT have alloys; the EX does but it's considerably more than the LX.

Re other comment of "only Civic Si has VSA, if you want ESC you need to get Corolla"--there's many other choices in this class that offer ESC, and with greater availability (sometimes even standard equipment) than what Corolla offers, at least in my area.

nippononly · February 2008

"more powerful ( slightly )"

It gained 5% in power and 10% in weight. Buff book testing will probably find that it is actually slower with the 1.8 than the Gen 9. This, and fuel economy sidestepped as you state. It is hard to call this an improvement. If the ride is substantially better (the Toyota salesmen seem to be somewhat at odds on this score), then maybe we could say it is as good.

But inventing an XLE trim that basically mirrors the outgoing LE trim, making the new LE the old CE, and adding a "standard" trim at the bottom, is a clever way to disguise the fact that you have raised prices: people will naturally compare LE to LE and say "wow, they haven't raised prices at all!". In 2009 MY, they are still selling two of five Corolla trims (including LE) without power windows or locks? Even Honda wouldn't try to get away with that (and doesn't). And unless I am recalling incorrectly, the 2008 LE had the power package standard. Clever, Toyota, clever.

But part of what I was saying was time-specific: I was referring to the overall value of the 2003 Corolla (gen 9) in 2002/3, when it was new. I think it was a better value in summer of '02, IOW, than this '09 Corolla will be in summer of '08. The market has moved too much around Corolla, and value is relative to the rest of what's available out there.

moparbad · February 2008

This Gen10 is much a much better value than the last Gen9. It's bigger,

I don't need bigger. I don't want bigger. Super sizing the Corolla does not make it a better value.

Gen 8 was the right size and Gen 9 was already getting porky.

kdhspyder · February 2008

But part of what I was saying was time-specific: I was referring to the overall value of the 2003 Corolla (gen 9) in 2002/3, when it was new. I think it was a better value in summer of '02, IOW, than this '09 Corolla will be in summer of '08. The market has moved too much around Corolla, and value is relative to the rest of what's available out there

Yes I agree here that the last Gen was significantly better than the one before it which to me was very very plain. The sales figures reflected the difference since the Corolla passed the Civic during year 2 of Gen9....then stayed ahead of it.

I guess we'll see how the public reacts to this new Gen. There's more to this one in the features that are important to me namely, safety, roominess and quiet interior. Performance has little or no bearing, ditto handling. But the easy option to add Sat Radio, a better sound system or have BT easily accessible are additional key points why this has more value to me.

kdhspyder · February 2008

Coming out of 4 Camry's, an LHS, a Concord and an Olds 98 my choice is for a midsizer first. Simply the Corolla and Civic were too small and rode/sound too harsh. When I was looking for a fuel efficient vehicle after Katrina I opted for the Prius simply because I had eliminated everything Corolla/Civic-sized and smaller.

Now that the Corolla is slightly bigger it appeals to me like my Gen4 Camry's did -only with better fuel economy and more amenities.

moparbad · February 2008

Comparing the top trim and saying 'Wow $22000 for a Corolla??' is correct but it's limited to a very small segment of the production. These model will likely are the few uber-profitable units for a few specialized demanders.

$23,345 is the base price for XRS Corolla 5 speed auto. *YTRMV

I agree that this trim will be a small percentage of sales, however, the S and XLE both START at over $20,500 and go up from there. You can't option one for less in the Chicago region.

Even the base model is only $140 less than $17,000 with an automatic. Even so it is a decent value (maybe the best value in it's class all things considered) due to the added standard equipment.

It is the $3500 plus leap to S and XLE that make other trims less competitive and less attractive.

moparbad · February 2008

Is Corolla a midsize now?

Has Yaris replaced the Corolla in as it's compact offering? Won't get into details about the Yaris other than say I don't like it and I expect Toyota is not too happy with it either.

Interesting to note Toyota changing model names almost as quickly as GM or Ford with Tercel>Echo>Yaris.

Tercel and Starlet were darn near indestructible.

backy · February 2008

No, Corolla is not a mid-sizer, at least according to the EPA. So Toyota didn't follow the path tread by Nissan and Hyundai. Corolla is still a "compact" and Yaris is a sub-compact, and Camry is the mid-sizer, so at least it's clear where each car fits.

backy · February 2008

Anyone else see the Corolla ad during the Super Bowl? It had a guy inside the Corolla with a wolverine (?), sitting outside a mansion. Another guy noted that if the wolverine woke up, it would eat the guy's face off. Then they fired a cannon alongside the car, and of course the wolverine kept sleeping. Then the guy's cell phone went off, and the wolverine was snarling in his face. I thought it was pretty funny.

kdhspyder · February 2008

Is Corolla a midsize now?

Has Yaris replaced the Corolla in as it's compact offering? Won't get into details about the Yaris other than say I don't like it and I expect Toyota is not too happy with it either.

Interesting to note Toyota changing model names almost as quickly as GM or Ford with Tercel>Echo>Yaris.

Tercel and Starlet were darn near indestructible.

IMO ...

1) Yes, like the Prius is a midsized vehicle. Officially neither is a midsizer since both are on the smallish side but they close to the 90s midsizers.

2) Yes, again. I think that the Yaris has taken over for the base model Corolla for the $12000 - $16000 buying segment. It's very basic but no more basic than the 90's Corollas were. It too has a lot more safety features and possible amenities than those Corollas did. Here's one indication. When the Yaris first came out we'd be lucky to have 4-5 on the lot at any one time.. Now it's 40 available!!! That's Corolla volume.

We'll see but apparently someone is predicting a huge surge in small vehicle sales.
Quarterly Yaris sales
Q1 06.....1300 units
Q2 06...21400
Q3 06...29000
Q4 06...18600
Q1 07...19200
Q2 07...27300
Q3 07...22000
Q4 07...16300

kdhspyder · February 2008

I just saw it on MSN's review of all the commercials. It is a good spot. It fixes one single thought in the minds of those who soon will test drive the new model. 'Look for quietness inside the cabin.'

mackabee · February 2008

Go out of region or order one without the options.

backy · February 2008

The Corolla is a mid-sized vehicle? Maybe in your mind, but when I think of a "mid-sized vehicle" I think of cars like the Camry, Accord, Sonata, Fulan, Aurabu etc. that have considerably more interior room than the Corolla. Even some "compacts" such as the Sentra and Elantra have true mid-sized interior room per EPA interior room numbers, while the Corolla does not. In my mind, the Corolla is a compact sedan. That's neither bad nor good--it's what it is.

kdhspyder · February 2008

While it's true 'YTRMV' nothing is set in stone forever. If one region such as CAT is offering a variety of models such as the XLE from $18000-ish to $22000-ish it's likely that others with fewer model options will follow suit. The purpose afterall is just to move metal.

Here too the XRS goes for the same MSRP of $23345 and there's only one package option ( SR, EJ ). At some time in the future that package options will be eliminated and just the base model will be offered, probably with some individual options.

But here is a key point. The Corolla is still a soldier supporting the Camry line. The 4c Camry SE has a base of $23900, no SR, no VSC/Trac and standard Sound. The first package on the Camry SE adds the SR, VS and EJ for a new total of $25690

Within the Toyota line the XRS offers a buyer the same 4c 2.4L but a smaller, presumably sportier/quicker vehicle, with more features at a discount from the Base model Camry SE; $23345 vs $23900. Which would you prefer the size and room of the Camry SE or the amenities and sportiness of the Corolla XRS. Both are about the same price. This is intentional. It's also a support for the Camry SE with Package A @ $25690. 'Well I really like all the features that the XRS has but I want/need more room.' 'OK, here is the upgraded Camry SE that has everything the XRS has and more room.'

kdhspyder · February 2008

I know it is not a true midsizer, certainly not by today's standards. But to a Camry owner coming out of a 96, 97, 2000, 01 Camry it's pretty close.

It is definitely smaller and it should be sold at a discount to the true midsizers. But see the price comparo above. Again we have to consider what is the target group of buyers.

There are probably 2-3 million current Corolla owners on the road. For them this new Gen is noticably larger with a lot more features and varieties at about the same price.

There are probably 2-4 million current Camry owners on the road. For a good portion of them this new Gen is slightly smaller than their current ride, with a ton more safety features, the same power or even more, better fuel economy, and more amenities. All at the same prices they paid back in 96 or 97 or 2000. For the more recent Camry owners this vehicle is a lot smaller but it does have appeal as a mini-version at a discount.

Finally there is likely soon to be a flood of new buyers moving down in size and up in fuel efficiency as gas prices skyrocket. These buyers coming out of SUVs and large trucks have been accustomed to a certain level of amenities. Offering them a basic $17000 Corolla will never fly.

But I could be all wrong too. :shades: , I just don't think so. Time will tell though. To be revisited in December.

kasper06 · February 2008

I thought that commercial was pretty funny. I can attest that the new Corolla is very, very quiet and is also very refined. I really appreciate this a lot about the new Corolla. I've driven two LE's so far. It's almost like therapy on wheels after a long, hard day at work. It seems like a very well made, well engineered car.

alpha01 · February 2008

I think there is more to the story than just saying that power increase 5% and weight increased 10%.

On the whole, the Corolla is still lighter than many of its competitors. Weights published for the last generation Corollas never included SAB/SAC and ABS, which all weights now include since these are standard features. Those calling the Corolla porkier may have not considered how much such items weigh, or consider that the new Corolla is said to be much more rigid in structural integrity if MotorTrend, Car and Driver reviews are to be indicative. The Corolla has not grown dimensionally overall, giving up some height for some width, no doubt which is used for an improvement in side impact crash protection.

The heaviest 2009 1.8L Corolla is the S 4A, at 2822 lbs. The heaviest 2008 1.8L Corolla was listed as the S/LE 4A, at 2615 lbs, but without the aforementioned safety features. That's about a 7.5% weight increase, not including the safety stuff, which would shrink that number further.

Regarding fuel economy, despite the 5% horsepower gain and the 7.5% weight gain, is the same or better than last year. The 2009 S 4A is rated at 27/35 by the EPA, whereas the 2008 LE 4A was rated at 26/35.

More safety + more power + maintained or better MPG IS an improvement, IMO.

I agree with you regarding packages, however, Honda does sell the Civic DX, which is basically totally undesirable by most of the population since A/C would need to be dealer installed. Essentially, Honda's entry level model is the LX, which is $17K plus, meaning, priced very similarly to Corolla LE with power pkg, cruise, etc.

Note: my specs are from those available on the specification pages for the Corolla at pressroom.toyota.com

nippononly · February 2008

"Won't get into details about the Yaris other than say I don't like it and I expect Toyota is not too happy with it either."

Yaris has come close to DOUBLING Toyota's initial sales expectations. Toyota introduced an 'S' hatchback this year and stepped up production because it found it had way underestimated sales volumes. I think Toyota is probably fairly happy with it....

"Interesting to note Toyota changing model names almost as quickly as GM or Ford with Tercel>Echo>Yaris.

Tercel and Starlet were darn near indestructible."

I think Echo will prove to be just as indestructible. Tercel was too. As for Starlet, well that was one of Toyota's little occasional slips, from what I have read. Not very durable, to say the least. But it was also a short-lived model.

As for name changes, the Echo was only called that in North America, and was identical to the last-gen Yaris sold everywhere else in the world.

Except for the huge new trunk and a little more elbow space in the front seats, the '09 Corolla is the same size as the last one, seems to me. Definitely not midsize.

wc1 · February 2008

You folks that are complaining about the price of the Corolla: You have a choice: DON'T BUY IT. If this car is overpriced, the marketplace will sort this out. My guess is that you can wait until June and get this thing at a $1000-$1500 discount off MSRP. If you buy from dealer stock right now, it's MSRP or nothing. Plus, if you don't live the the Southeast or Gulf States region, you can order what you want with each individual option that you want, and receive it in 2-3 months. If you live in the Southeast, go to TN or VA. Place your order by fax. If you live in Texas, go to KS or NM. Fitzmall is already discounting Corollas big time. This thing is built in California, not Japan. Ordering is no big deal. You don't have to take a bunch of crazy packages. Jeez.

nippononly · February 2008

"On the whole, the Corolla is still lighter than many of its competitors."

Sure sure, but it is not lighter than its main competitor, which also happens to have more power with the same fuel economy and all that safety equipment you mentioned.

And if one were not a fuel economy maven, then one would probably note that the REST of the field, almost to a man, has more power than Corolla to go along with their extra weight. But weight is my new pet peeve in general, I am not singling out Corolla here. What I am saying about the Corolla is that weight is up more than power is, without any improvement in fuel economy. If that's partially for the sake of a quieter ride, then some would say it is an acceptable trade-off. Me, I am not one of those some, and I can't call it an improvement.

As for safety, Corolla now catches up with the field in passive equipment, but despite the increase in weight, it still has the same size brakes as before, and the rears are still drums (except on XRS?). Will this lead to increased stopping distances or increased fade under hard emergency use? I await detailed analyses in the car mags for these answers.

alpha01 · February 2008

Your comments regarding the Corolla's brakes appear misleading. The front brake discs are listed as the same size as before, but the swept area - the surfaces upon which friction is applied such that the vehicle stops.... are much larger. (And rear drums are larger with greater swept area too)

2009 Corolla 1.8L
Front discs: 10.8 inches w / Swept area: 207 square inches
Rear drums: 9.0 inches w / Swept area: 155.6 square inches

2008 Corolla 1.8L
Front discs: 10.8 inches w/ Swept area: 157.5 square inches
Rear drums: 7.9 inches w/ Swept area: 58.4 square inches

So really, the brakes are not nearly the same as before, as your comments indicate. And right here on emunds.com, there are brake test results of a loaded Corolla S 5M, so you can check those results out if you choose to.

kdhspyder · February 2008

But inventing an XLE trim that basically mirrors the outgoing LE trim, making the new LE the old CE, and adding a "standard" trim at the bottom, is a clever way to disguise the fact that you have raised prices: people will naturally compare LE to LE and say "wow, they haven't raised prices at all!". In 2009 MY, they are still selling two of five Corolla trims (including LE) without power windows or locks? Even Honda wouldn't try to get away with that (and doesn't). And unless I am recalling incorrectly, the 2008 LE had the power package standard. Clever, Toyota, clever.

Good catch on the 'slippage' in the trim levels. Yes it seems that the XLE is the former LE ( plus ) while the LE is the CE ( plus ) and the standard is the 'value edition.'

Now as as to a comparo between the older LE and new XLE the salient differences are..( Gen 9 vs Gen 10 +Pckg A)
Mechanical
1.8L VVT-i vs 1.8L Dual VVT-i
15" wheels vs 16' wheels ( steel )
195 / 65R15 vs 205 / 55R16
smaller swept area / larger swept area ( alpha01's post above )

Safety
No active head restrains vs Active head restraints
No TPMS vs TPMS
VSC Not Avail vs VSC optional ( see below )
S/C AB optional vs S/C AB standard
ABS, EBD, BA options vs all standard

Comfort / Convenience
Tilt SW vs Tilt + Telescoping SW
fixed seating vs improved 4-way adjustable seating

Options
S/C AB vs Standard
ABS/EBD/BA vs Standard
6 CD non-JBL vs 6 CD non-JBL
Cruise Ctrl vs Cruise Ctrl
Floor mats vs Floor mats
No VSC/TRAC vs VSC/TRAC

MSRP
$18520 vs $19059 Pckge A
The vehicles are nearly identical in price with the key differences being the standard and optional safety features, the engine and the interior room.

Package B in Gen10 adds a Moonroof ( SR )
Package C in Gen10 adds the JBL sound system w/BT in lieu of the Moonroof ( EJ )
Package D in Gen10 adds both the Moonroof and JBL sound ( SR, EJ )
Package E in Gen10 adds the Moonroof and Navi in lieu of the JBL ( SR, NV )

Thus outside of additional customer choices in amenities the current XLE is the same as the prior LE except that the XLE has more safety features, more passenger room, a better smoother engine and a quieter experience for a $540 difference in price.

YTRMV of course..at least initially.

explorerx4 · February 2008

when the camry/turndra was new, same thing.

backy · February 2008

So you mean I can go into any Toyota dealer in the Midwest, ask for an LE with the only options being VSC, cruise, keyless entry, carpeted mats, body side moldings, and the required All Weather Guard package, MSRP $18,599 (maybe get it for near $17k in June), wait 2-3 months, and I can get it that way--and in the color I want? That's not too bad then. $17k is still a lot for it, IMO, considering some alternatives out there for the same or less money, but it's getting more reasonable.

mackabee · February 2008

The 08 Corolla has tpms.
:shades:

nippononly · February 2008

kdh, I admire your persistence! I love it, in fact! :-)

Hmm, I could go check, but I am pretty sure TPMS was standard on the '08 Corolla. I'm positive it was on the '08 Matrix.
You listed optional VSC twice.
And the dual VVT-i is controversial as an "improvement", for the reasons noted in our little dialog earlier. I suppose it contributes to the new reduced smog emissions rating, which I give a thumbs-up.
And 4-way adjustable seating is 4-way adjustable seating, no matter how much you call it "new and improved". But you have confused me, I thought driver's seat height adjustment was standard across the board on the '09? There is still no lumbar adjustment, I guess?

I built an '09 XLE with package A, Toyota.com told me $19,320. I would say that's an extra $800 for VSC and 1" bigger rims? That's great if you want VSC, not so great if you don't care about it. Will I be able to get that car for $16,5 by summer, the way I could get that last-gen LE for the last couple of years? I dunno...

And alpha: fair enough, the swept area is larger. But the overall size of the discs is what contributes to heat dispersement, and therefore the brakes' ability to resist fade and warping under hard braking, especially repeated hard braking. My opinion hasn't changed, but you have contributed some interesting numbers to the discussion.

mackabee · February 2008

Since I came down with a bad case of the flu last Tuesday, today was the first day I actually had to spend some time in the new Corolla. I put it side by side with the 08 and it actually looks smaller. A bit wider but overall smaller. The trunk is bigger in the 09, consequently the interior space is reduced. You can see this immediately by sitting in the back seat. The 08 wasn't much of a legroom getter in the back but this 09 has less legroom. The roof is lower so headroom is also less.
In no way does this remind me of the 97-01 Camry other than that one was also marketed as being bigger than the 92-96 gen. Negative on both cars. I own a 97 and a 93. The 93 is roomier and interior is larger than on the 97. I feel the same way with this new Corolla. I don't know what measuring devices the engineers were using but they don't add up.
Driving it was like driving a Yaris, the engine is quieter than the previous gen but the acceleration not as good as the previous gen. Overall a big disappointment for almost the entire sales force at my store. In reality all they did to "improve" it over the current gen was to add a trip computer, tilt/telescoping wheel, aux input, 1 inch bigger tires and wheels, larger trunk (smaller interior) and that's it. Yet Europe and other countries can get the smart key system, digital auto climate control, and a few other features that escape me. We Americans must be really dumb for Toyota to dumb down their cars for our market.

nippononly · February 2008

Or at least to dumb them down THIS MUCH, eh?! ;-)

And thanks for confirming my impressions of relative size, I was beginning to think I was nuts. I have spent way too much time in the '97-99 Camrys to believe the '09 Corolla has as much interior space, and I agree that the rear seat of the new model actually feels smaller than the outgoing model.

I notice that after making such a huge fuss about the rear seat X-bracing etc in the Camry SE in order to improve handling (which it does), Toyota has done nothing of the kind, not even put in an independent rear suspension, in the Corolla XRS. To say it is a smaller cheaper Camry SE is a stretch, IMO. They just happen to share a powertrain, nothing more.

kdhspyder · February 2008

Good, more for us to sell. :shades:
( as background Mack and I work in competing stores on opposite side of the same metroplex. Our two stores are exactly the same size with their emphasis being the Camry and ours being trucks ). It's fun to exchange ideas, but I think his sales force needs a collective eye checkup. :P

It must be the built in optical illusion that was just recently announced quietly. :surprise:

OAL........... 188.5 ..........178.3 ..........178.7
OAW........... 70.1 ............66.9 ...........69.3
HT............... 55.4 ............58.3 ...........57.7
WB.............105.2 ......... 102.4 ......... 102.4
CW............. 3000 ..........2595 ...........2811
Track....... 61.0/59.9 ... 58.3/57.5 .... 59.8/59.9
HR-F........... 38.6 .......... 38.8 ........... 38.8
LR-F............ 43.5 .......... 41.3 ........... 41.7
SH-F........... 56.2 .......... 53.1 ............ 54.8
HP-F........... 54.0 .......... 51.9 ............ 53.0
HR-R........... 37.6 .......... 37.1 ............ 37.2
LR-R........... 35.5 .......... 35.4 ............ 36.3 HUH?
SH-R........... 56.1 .......... 53.5 ............ 54.6
HP-R........... 54.0 .......... 46.2 ............ 43.9 HUH?
Pass Vol...... 96.8 .......... 90.3 ............ 92.0
Carg Vol....... 14.1 .......... 13.6 ............16.6 WOW !

I still contend it will be a winner, but what do I know - I'm a Giants fan since 1958. Obviously there's no way the Giants could play the Pats headsup for 8 quarters and beat them into submission. So I guess I'm wrong here as well. Oh well, let's just play the game and get on with it.

No it's not the same size as the Gen4 Camry but it's pretty close IMO...and it's still a better value for me than the Gen9 Corolla. And no Mack the Gen10 is not smaller than the Gen9. Vision checks all around.

mackabee · February 2008

Ok spydey, whatever you want to believe. Toyota has tried pulling the wool over our eyes before. They said the 8th gen Corolla was also bigger than the 7th gen. It wasn't. When the first Tundra came out they also said it was bigger than the T-100., It wasn't. I even wrote the technical people and challenged their specs and actually changed the source book.
Just because we compete doesn't make us enemies. I have a keen eye for quality and fit and finish. We will sell more than our share, that's no question about it but it is still a big disappointment. :P

alpha01 · February 2008

I kind of doubt that Corolla owners will ever engage in "repeated hard braking".

Your original question regarding the same brake sizes was "Will this lead to increased stopping distances or increased fade under hard emergency use? I await detailed analyses in the car mags for these answers. "

I do not think stopping distances will be longer, given the increase in braking surface area as illustrated, and Edmunds.com's tests did not indicate any fade issues.

I'll help you with the results:
Overall Brake Rating (Excellent, Good, Average, Poor or Very Poor): GOOD
60-0: 125 feet
Braking Comments: "A little spongy with a generous amount of dive, but the brakes themselves are effective."

alpha01 · February 2008

You raise a good point - what are the actual suspension tuning differences between the Corolla S and Corolla XRS?

Mack - agreed. Why has Toyota seemed to cheaped out on this redesign?

My questions: Where's push button start? Where's a power seat or auto climate for the XLE? Where is standard stability control? Where is a 5-speed auto for all models to improve power and efficiency? Where's the driver's knee airbag thats standard on the Camry (even though nobody cares about it)? Where's leather on the XLE? Where's an independent suspension on at least the XRS?

Where, where, where?

nippononly · February 2008

In terms of repeated hard braking, I am thinking of coming down a long grade, traditionally a Toyota weakness (reference the brakes on the old Sienna, most of the Camrys of the last decade, esp the 4-cylinders, 4Runners between '90 and '02, etc). All I'm saying is when mass increases, brake size should increase proportionally.

"My questions: Where's push button start? Where's a power seat or auto climate for the XLE? Where is standard stability control? Where is a 5-speed auto for all models to improve power and efficiency? Where's the driver's knee airbag thats standard on the Camry (even though nobody cares about it)? Where's leather on the XLE?"

I'm thinking they are holding back on all this stuff to offer a "Limited" grade in a year or two, bringing the total number of trims to a needless six. :-P
Said Limited will base at $24K, allowing Camry prices to rise, following the "foot soldier" model that has been proposed here in this thread....

Now I am curious to know if there is any difference at all in suspension between the S and XRS. The Matrix XRS gets an indy rear, but they totally cheaped out (this might be the most obvious cheap-out of all in this redesign) on the Corolla version, giving it the same suspension design as the rest of the Corolla line. Despite the two models being mechanical twins.

The XRS DOES get larger rims and tires. Perhaps they have also lowered and/or stiffened the suspension/settings? The Camry SE is lowered AND gets larger sways than the other Camrys. Have they done THAT at least with the Corolla XRS?

2009murano · February 2008

With massive quality complaints abound, especially a whipping by Consumer Reports for shady quality... Toyota's are worth about what every other car is worth - invoice, and nothing more.

alpha01 · February 2008

Nippon - I had a second to look it up, and according to the Corolla brochure, the XRS does indeed get a sport strut tower brace up front, as well as a different steering ratio than the 1.8L models. This, in addition to the larger wheels and tires that you already mentioned.

That appears to be it, though, as noted, it carries the torsion beam rear setup of the 1.8L models, compared to the IRS setup found on the Matrix XRS.

kdhspyder · February 2008

From experience nobody ever does...

nippononly · February 2008

Well, that's a bit wimpy - the underhood strut tower brace is a minimal improvement to handling - lowering and larger sways, not to mention an indy rear, would do a LOT more to improve handling than the silly brace. As for quicker steering, well that will make it feel more sporty I guess, but won't improve the slalom time by more than a hair. I guess the only real contribution to improved handling is the 17" rims and 10-mm wider tires. I believe they are a 45 profile - that's something. The XRS should have a bit less understeer, something that wasn't improved on the last XRS.

backy · February 2008

Nobody gets Toyotas at invoice? Hmm... if you go to the Fitzmall web site and look at their everyday "internet" prices on Toyotas, e.g. the Camry, you'll see many opportunities to buy a Toyota for far below invoice. And I'll bet they aren't the only dealer in the U.S. that routinely sells Toyotas for under invoice, especially considering rebates are commonly available on many models.

Maybe your dealership has been successful at selling all Toyotas for above invoice, but that doesn't mean better deals aren't available elsewhere.

alpha01 · February 2008

I took his statement to mean that "nobody ever does".... pay more than invoice... (at least not educated car buyers, or anyone who knows an educated car buyer)

I think invoice -or at least good deals - are much more common than not, on most models of most makes. I was surprised that after test driving the new Accord the other day, the super-amazing saleswoman (who was so low pressure and generally fantastic) printed off a document detailing all the specials currently available for leases. (I must say, it was one of the most pleasant days of car shopping, with the exception of the abysmal Hyundai guy who kept telling me about "incentitives" and literally had me running from the lot).

kdhspyder · February 2008

I was saying the opposite...especially now, nobody pays anything other than invoice, less any rebates. TMS knows that there's no money being made at the retail level now at this time. At CAT's annual sales person's benefit in Atl City they admitted as much.

But from the manufacturers' pov an invoice sale to the final buyer is still a 'full sticker' deal as far as the manufacturer is concerned. Of course rebates and subvented financing are the discounts from the manufactures' revenues.

mackabee · February 2008

Well, CAT is mostly responsible for that. There's no margin to speak on most Toyotas so when you discount one and then add the dealer packs on them it gets ridiculous. I've given up fighting with customers over MSRP and sticker or anywhere in between. At my store you can sell a Corolla at MSRP and still get a mini. And what's up with Cash Blast? That's gone now too. I may be looking for another make of car to sell where I can actually make some money again. Highline is starting to sound good. I should have listened to some of my customers advice.
:shades:

nippononly · February 2008

LOL! You mean he was actually saying "incentitives"? :-P

You will have to put up with a lot of grief at most stand-alone Honda stores to get a car at invoice.

Less so at Toyota dealers, especially the big corporate stores, where the way to shop is over the internet. On volume models like Corolla they will offer you invoice minus incentives right on the first inquiry. I wonder how soon they will be doing that on '09 Corollas. I would guess they probably don't start the deep automatic discounts until they are fully stocked on a new model, which may still be 4-8 weeks out for Corolla.

mackabee · February 2008

I got a warm and fuzzy feeling with the S model. The cheap plastic doesn't look as cheap as it did in the LE. Could be because it's a charcoal/black color and doesn't show. The seats were also very nice as was the moonroof, spoiler, and alloy wheels. It also has the audio controls on the mini leather covered steering wheel. I did have to look twice at the price. $20,974.00. Funny thing was after I walked away our VP of sales happened to be walking back to his office and stopped to look at the car. I walked over and said "be careful when you look at the sticker, it might make you jump." He looked at me and said "Are you serious? $20,974.00 for a Corolla?" "yep, you get the moonroof, alloys and wheels, but the car just behind it is $1000 more." he looks back and there's an Camry LE which stickers for $21,934.00 and says "You're going to have a hard time selling this one."

On a more positive note, I took an LE Corolla and a Matrix for a good test drive tonight. I must say I was impressed by the quietness of the Corolla at full speed. The engine still makes all kinds of ruckus when you first accelerate but then it just slowly quiets itself down. Getting off the expressway and back on to the boulevard I thought I was in a Camry instead due to the quietness of the car. The seating position is quite an improvement over the previous gen due to the tilt/scope wheel adjustments and the seat itself is more comfortable. Acceleration was brisk and shifts were nice and smooth. I did gun the gas pedal and it does seem quicker than before.
The Matrix was just a re-run of the Corolla drive. Same chassis and drive train with a different dress.
I'm looking forward to the XRS version of both cars and put them through their paces.
:shades:

2009 Toyota Corolla

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