Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

k_mitsui · March 2005

4.Many of you have question whether or not the new LS sedan would achieve 600 horsepower or recent reports that claim the LS would have a 6 liter engine and a long wheel base version that is 6 inches longer than short wheel base version. However Mr. Yamamura (Kelvin) and myself do not agree with these rumors because of the following reasons. For one, Mr. Yamamura whos the researcher currently participate in the Century sedan project states the only Toyota sedan that would achieve the 600 horsepower mark would be upcoming V12 powered Century sedan and there is nothing currently place onto Toyotas management table where another sedan other than the Century would produce 600 horsepower. Mr. Yamamura also said in his own words from his meetings with the researchers in the LS project there are no evidence the LS sedan would have gas or hybrid displacement at 6.0 liters, but its possible that the LS researchers would name the 5.5 hybrid-gas engine as LS600h (its same logic as Mercedes have 5.5 liter displacement sedan and named it as the S600). Finally he said that he never heard anything the LS sedans long-wheel base version would be 6 inches longer than the short wheel base version, but they would try to ensure the length on the long wheel base LS sedan to match the long wheel base versions available in Mercedes and BMW.
5.On the other hand Kelvin point out the new Century sedan would be the first Toyota sedan that would have 5.5 liter gas and 6.0 liter hybrid V12 powered engine and an available long wheel base version that would provide 6 inches more length than the original version, making the overall length of the sedan 56 inches. Therefore we both agree that perhaps the reports from autoreport.net might have mixed up its information on the LS sedan because there also a similar report from Japan (I forgot which magazine have said such statement) which points out that two upcoming sedan (one luxury and one ultra-luxury) from Toyota would have a 6.0 liter hybrid engine and the lesser model would have a new-4.6 liter engine and its possible that autoreport.net might presume the two sedans the Japanese magazine are referring to is the LS and forgot to think about another sedan that is under redesign and a class higher than the LS, which is the Century sedan. However since we dont have the details as to how autoreport.net got their information, so we cannot make any conclusive judgments at this time.

k_mitsui · March 2005

6.Before we close our message, we do like to comment about the importance for the success of the upcoming LS sedan because not only it would further enhance Lexus image as a global luxury brand, but more importantly Kelvin indicated the Toyota management is hoping to take a share in the ultra luxury sedan market and would keep a very close eye to the LS sedan sales to see if its possible for America and Europe is ready accept a more expensive sedan produced by Toyota. If this is so then there is a possibility that Toyota might bring the new Century sedan to sell in America and would have a starting price that is little less than half the price from a Maybach sedan.
Finally we would wish that all of you to not ask very specific details for the sedan (such as its specifications) because even Kelvin himself has a fairly limited knowledge on the LS sedan since he only participate in the Century project and researchers dont like to interrupt with other researches that is going on in the department. But we promise that when we know more information about the LS sedan, we would going to share them during an appropriate time.
Sincerely Yours
Ken Mitsui
Kelvin Yamamura

syswei · March 2005

Thank you for the info, Ken and Kelvin!

nvbanker · March 2005

Your time to answer our questions will undoubtedly be rewarded with loyalty and sales of Lexus automobiles in the future.

You think anybody over at GM ever bothers to read our comments? I doubt it..... But two engineers, who have to translate their answers in Japan do...... I wonder why Toyoda is so successful......

callmedrfill · March 2005

Lexus Century? Like the sound of that.

How far upmarket will the LS go?

As I've hinted previously, the GS is the performance model, and the LS has always been less powerful than the GS430, so, as Ken said, having the LS tuned for something other than raw power is more likely.

Syswei

I think you are being a little simplistic in your approach to displacement, power, and the LS.

If Lexus wants a super-powerful hybrid, they will go that way with the GS.

The LS is about being well-rounded, and improving progressively. They will make greater leaps with a GS model, as they don't also have a large GS client base to offend, as the LS clearly does.

What I take from Ken's inside info is a 600HP Lexus LS seems less likely than ever. The Hybrid GS will probably be more powerful, to enhance a performance image.

DrFill

ljflx · March 2005

I'll just always disagree with you and we'll have to see how this plays out. The competition for high HP is in the big sedan where BMW has the 760 and MB has the S-600. There is no competition for that level of HP in the smaller GS, E, 5-series cars except in tuned cars and even there it is lower HP anyway. A truly powerful GS makes no sense for that reason and as well the money buyer for such a car is looking at the next level up - the LS, S, 760 etc. Would be a total mistake and misread of the market to make a ground breaking GS and Toyota rarely make those type of mistakes. The LS is their success story, where the market for such a car is and the car Lexus will lead with. You can already see the proof of that as the GS has to wait for the next version of the LS V8 even though the new GS car is in the market 18 months earlier.

Let's separate out HP from performance. The LS will go the HP route IMO, the GS wiill go the handling performance route. We are also talking the US here. Fuel economy in $60-70K+ cars is hardly a priority. If it were MB would never have stopped the production of the 6cyl S-class for this market.

Kirstie_H · March 2005

Ken & Kelvin,
Thank you so much for spending your time giving information to us. We appreciate it!

msmtema99 · March 2005

that will be nice

topspin628 · March 2005

I am a very happy owner of an 04 LS (now that I have just had the computer update which has totally handled the slight hesitation in the car-if you own an 04 or 05 check out if you need this update, it transformed the car.)
Here is a short wish list for the next LS:
A true sport package option- like M for BMW or AMG for MB etc.
If these aren't even as extreme with higher HP for instance, than at least the option for sport seats and a tighter suspension. I see in the Edmunds review of the new GS that they praise the new steering feel and sport seats. I don't drive in an "inspired" way but do enjoy a bit more controlled steering response (not so overboosted) and the comfort of sport seats which are a bit firmer and more contoured.
The steering wheel should be a bit smaller too in my sport package.
Sounds like the new ML stereo in the GS is even a step up from the LS so I am sure that we will get that as well or maybe even one notch up again. Will the volume go to 11?

Great, Great car.
I would love to see the hybrid model here. I think that within 10 yrs they will become the norm and I would get one on principal alone. Just to know that I am helping a bit even if the extra cost of the car cancelled out my personal savings on fuel.

callmedrfill · March 2005

These sound great, but with sales, and prices, at an all-time high, I doubt Lexus is going to start throwing those types of options out, even though it may broaden the cars appeal.

Hopefully, if the car's new styling is more dramatic, and it is more powerful, the suspension can have another upgrade as well. I wouldn't wait up for it, though.

Doesn't the LS already have ML? I doubt anyone has said the stereo in the LS is inferior to any OEM system on the market.

FLX

That's fine. Comparing a 6-cyl S-Class to a Hybrid LS 15 years later makes no sense to me, but that's fine too.

Times have changed, and rich people would like to have an efficient 400HP Lexus, as opposed to an inefficient 400HP Lexus, if Lexus can build such a thing.

We will agree to disagree. An LS with more than 400-425HP would mean they are not squeezing efficiency equally, which I believe they value, the balance of virtues the LS has always shown.

When it comes to a Hybrid LS, unlike the new V8, it will take it's cues from the GS Hybrid, and modify that engine combination not for more power, but more torque and economy.

What I see is a greater spread in city/hwy economy, as torque is added, and HP is not emphasized.

If an LS Hybrid has 400HP and 560lb.-ft. of torque, and goes 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, has 27/29 MP
city/hwy, and cost $89k, will Lexus sell every one? Will they see the value over a 760 or S600? Will that also hurt their main competition, 750 and S500? They can kill 4 birds with one stone! With proper pricing, just under $100k.

Just a thought.

DrFill

chris65amg · March 2005

""400HP and 560lb.-ft. of torque""

Those numbers are almost identical to the ones in the Bentley Arnage.... only its 615 ft lbs in the Arnage, which costs oh about 200 grand. There's my bad comparision of the day

In a big luxury cruiser like the LS, I believe that high torque numbers are essential, if only for a super smooth takeoff and a more controlled feel.

"has 27/29 MPG"

Boy I hope so.... only i'm thinking closer to 27/25 city hwy. Since being enviromentally concious is "in" right now, and since people still love gigantic cars.... I'm predicting a smash hit for the LS Hybrid in all scenarios.

topspin628 · March 2005

The new ML system in the GS is apparently a next generation upgrade in that it has surround sound, plays DVD's etc. You can check out the review in the Road Test section.

chris65amg · March 2005

ML is a lot better than the audio systems in Audi and Mercedes IMO.... and an upgraded one.... whoo.

cargeek · March 2005

That is NOT the new LS 500. Its front end is from the 2005 Avalon, the main body is from a LS 430, and the rear end is from a S-Class. Way to obvious

cargeek · March 2005

I think that resembles what I picture the '07 Lexus LS 500 as. Notice the shape of the body. Cant wait till Fall of 2006!

Cargeek

nautical · March 2005

MB has the AMG line and BMW has the M line, does anyone know if Lexus will ever have a comparable car line? Tks

toyota0001 · March 2005

does toyota/lexus plan in the future to start building cars out of aluminum or other alloys in combination with steels for stucture use what about rivets and adhesives, plastics also. i would like to see the cars built easier for the repair procees where the cars comes in sections that would bolt up all for the aligment purpose then welde or what is recomonded for perment placement

billsoter · March 2005

I fervently hope that the new LS audio system will have an option for Ipod/MP3 player integration. Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Volvo, GM and others have announced that their new vehicles will have such connectivity. The new MB M class now available has such an option built in.
Lexus has recognized the importance of a superior audio system with the ML system. Equally important is having access to an owner's large music library to enhance the experience now that such players are so common. I was disappointed when the new 2006 GS was brought to market without such an option. I understand that the new GS ML system is better than ever. It's a shame that the underlying hardware is the same old, same old.
I love my Ipod and want to use it as part of an integrated part of an audio system, not through a cassette adapter or FM transmitter as I now do in my 2003 LS. Availability of such an option is critically important in my determination of whether or not to trade up to a 2007 LS when it becomes available.

k_mitsui · April 2005

Hello All
First of all I would like to thank all the comments raised for the LS sedan, I would sure Kevin and Toyota would certainly take these opinions very seriously when designing the next LS sedan since America is a very important market for them. Unfortunately I was unable to respond to your messages for the past weeks since I am very busy monitoring and organize all the activities for the Mitsui-Toshiba pavilion in the world-expo currently take place in Aichi. If you want to know what it is you can either go to http://www.expo2005.or.jp/ for general expo information or http://www.mt-expo.com/index_e.html if you want to see our pavilion website. By the way Kevin havent return from the expo yet (but he will be back about a week or so), so I would going to try all my best to respond all your concerns and I dont know how well I am able to answer your questions since I do not work for Toyota.
Now I will begin to answer the messages
1. One of the questions asked is: would the LS sedan would have a highly sporty, AMG edition like Mercedes S-Class does?? And my response to it would be Yes and you can refer my pervious messages which I said that other than the traditional and hybrid displacement LS models, there would be also a high power LS GT model (I think I have state it a month or two ago, so you might wish to click in the beginning pages in the forum). However it would be Questionable (in my opinion) whether or not this Sporty LS sedan would ever appear in the American market in a foreseeable future.
This is because for one, the proposed creation of the GT LS model was Toyotas response to the local Japanese owners wish that Toyota would create in future years a Highly Sporty Celsior model since they are often complaining that there are only few TRD factory options available that they can add on their sedans. But how is it possible that Japanese owners like to modify their Celsoirs? This can be explain by the fact the average Celsior buyer in Japan are in their late 30s to mid forties. Many of these consumers are middle class buyers whom they want comfort and luxury, but cannot afford the German sedans at the same time. This is simply because our government has impose very heavy import tax for foreign vehicles in order to protect Japanese auto industry. So we have a very young consumer base than lets say in America where average buyers age is in their early 60s!! And I asked Kevin before I left to Aichi on whether or not Toyota would sell the GT version to America given the average buyer age in America is 62 years? His response is Highly Unlikely Claiming that it would be too risky for Toyota to bring them since they are not sure how many Americans are willing to pay a higher price than the original LS while sacrificing comfort to obtain more power and sportiness??. However he never rule out the older people in America think differently than we Japanese do, so hes more than welcome any American in this forum or any other people from other website with the combinations of surveys Toyota have gathered in America to decide if theres enough census to change the managements mind.

k_mitsui · April 2005

2. I do absolutely agree with Mr. assessment, its completely unnecessary for a Toyota luxury sedan to acquire big horsepower since I think Toyota sedans would keep up with the power competition as long as the car showed excellent torque and good power. You might be start wondering why Toyota dont like to produce big horsepower cars as the Germans do?? Well all I can say is most of transmission design for Toyota luxury sedans are particularly suitable for engine designs that produce high Torque output not BIG horsepower in order to produce excellent power and smoothness. But I am not quite sure what kind of mechanisms their transmission can sustain high torque curve, so I think Kevin can help on this matter.
3. In terms of whether i-pod would be integrated on the new LS? All I can say is although the i-pod is widely popular in the world now, I never heard Kevin nor others mention this would be integrate on the new LS sedan. But what I do know is theres a good possibility the new LS sedan would be fully compatible with Mini-Disc, memory stick and even perhaps the new PSP. This is because Kevin has mention to me in Aichi that a couple of Sony officials have gone to a meeting with the Toyota management around two weeks ago about the possibility of integrating some Sony entertainment technology into Toyota sedans. Of course if the management is interested with such concept, then they would have to meet with Kevin and other researchers to discuss the details of such bold concept.
I also know that theres also a good possibility the new LS sedan would have a rear-entrainment system (probably it would be optional equipment) because I also heard from Kevin that he provide all the specifications necessary (for the new Centurys rear-entertainment system) for the engineers whom are designing the LS in order to build their own entertainment system. If the new LS fully adopt the entrainment system as Kevins, I can tell you this system would be best car audio/video system in the world! 18-speakers!
4. In response to Mr. on the possibility that Toyota would ever built cars using a new flexible chassis system and highly environmental friendly-lightweight/easy replacement material? Well all I can say is Kevin would be the best person to answer your questions since hes researching on new flexible/environmental friendly chassis system for the new Century sedan. Therefore, I would leave this question until Kevin comes back Tokyo to answer it.

k_mitsui · April 2005

Finally since its already early April, which means the new LS and the Century prototype vehicle should be come out less than a month away. Therefore we think that its almost time to start to talk about the details that might appear on the LS sedan and Kevin and I would do just that for the next two letters. Please be very patient since it would take a lot of time to put all the information, but we promise that this would be first America website that would have most accurate information about the new LS sedan.
Finally please do feel free to share our information with people who are seriously considering buying the new LS sedan and you dont need to pay me money or anything to thank us because we really do not like to give such information for profit or anything.
Thank you for your cooperation
Ken

syswei · April 2005

Thank you for the info once again.

One comment I have is that the German manufacturers have their high-performance versions (AMG, M, etc) and have long offered them in the U.S. They may not sell that many units (worldwide or in the U.S.) but the high-perf models do help the corporate image. Once the money has been spent to offer such models in one market, it only makes sense to offer them in the U.S. for not that much of an incremental investment.

callmedrfill · April 2005

All I can say in response is if Lexus likes the clientele they currently have, then they shouldn't make any grand changes to the LS.

If they want younger buyers, offer features, suspension, power, that will draw a younger audience.

You will NEVER see an LS in a Jay-Z video, but offering some style for people under 50 would be appreciated. Primarily some more svelte exterior style and better wheels/tires/suspension options.

Hopefully, Lexus will look to expand it's LS appeal in the future.

DrFill

chris65amg · April 2005

A more svelte body would be nice, but I like the big car alightly aggressive looks of the LS quite a bit. Keep the big grille is what I say. I would be horrified if the LS was in a Jay-Z video.

topspin628 · April 2005

I do believe that a high performance AMG type model would be a good thing for the US market. It would be attractive to a younger crowd and would serve a a halo model for the brand. I also believe that it would "freshen" the image of the LS.

If you could offer the performance, road and steering feel of the Germans along with package of sport seats etc to go with the quality of Lexus, well sign me up now.

I also agree with the post about IPOD compatibility. This is the standard now.

Thanks for all the great data and please keep it coming.

callmedrfill · April 2005

a cord standard for MP3 capability.

So there is hope for my Pod!

Tired of putting cassette players in my whips!

DrFill

ljflx · April 2005

This is Lexus' primary and most important market. They aren't going to offer better performance and more expensive AMG like cars elsewhere and not here. Nor are they going to offer more powerful engines elsewhere and not here particularly with competition increasing their HP figures. The US is where they will lead because it's where they are the most successful and it's where they were born.

oac · April 2005

I agree.

Based on reports, that LS GT would be a halo effect car and should be a very capable competitor to cars like the MB S600 and BMW 760iL. Let's hope that it gets here within the next couple of years.

nvbanker · April 2005

I loved the look of the original LS-400. The second generation LS was ok, but seemed to be a little too short and squatty. The LS-430 in my opinion, is a little bit worse. The S-430/S-500 is a much nicer looking car, but is not reliable and costs too much. I am interested in the LS because it's such a good car, not because it's beautiful. As is usually the case, Toyota/Lexus is not a good looking car to me, just a great car. That's why I'm in the market for one. It would be nice, if they could make it gorgeous as well. Longer, would be nicer. More like the S-Class.

dorothyk · April 2005

I am in the market to purchase a new LS series sedan and have some opinions regarding the future LS. First, the Lexus LS430 is a class-leading luxury sedan NOT a sport sedan. If people want significantly more horsepower and handling than please consider the GS series.

Lexus please do not forget your primary market. Trying to appeal to a younger demographic will be a mistake. You will alienate your primary customer base. Look at the numbers, how many 30 year olds can afford a LS 430? Here are my suggestions:

1. Focus on improving exterior noise intrusion and tire noise.

2. Define a standard set of tires for maximum ride quality and noise. Too many
dealers are selling LS 430 with 18 inch wheels which significantly increase
tire noise and degrade ride quality.all most unbecoming for a car like
the LS 430

3. Wind noise has become noticeable at highway speeds on the latest models.
Please work this problem. The LS 400 set new standards in this area. If
necessary, bring back Ichiro Suzuki to work the problem.

4. Work with Denso to improve the navigation systems by adding the following
features
a. Real time traffic information similar to what is offered by Acura
b. Remove the need to accept the caution screen every time you start
the car. If necessary have the customer sign a legal document at the
time of purchase.
c. Enable the full features of the navigation system while driving if
someone is sitting in the passenger seat.
d. Improve the accuracy of the voice recognition system.
e. Offer option of programming the navigation system from a PC and
transferring the route information to the car via a memory stick.
f. Add sun shield to top of navigation screen to enhance viewing. Direct
sunlight intrudes on the screen all to often degrading readability. The
installation on the RX330 works very well.

5. Consider providing ipod / mp3 interface or implementing your own in-car
hard drive based system eliminating the need to carry CDs in the car.

6. For vehicles with the rear radio controls, provide input for headphones
(wireless) so the rear passengers can listen to music in private.

7. Provide option for remote full open rear trunk similar to S series Mercedes.
The current LS 430 requires someone to physically open the trunk after
being unlocked. Remote closing option would also be nice.

8. Increase cooling airflow in ventilated seats.

9. Provide full-featured sun visors similar to that on the 2000 Toyota Avalon (or
better). The current LS 430 sun visors look like something from a
Toyota Corolla.

10. Do not let improvements in styling reduce the interior dimensions especially
leg room or reduce trunk volume.

11. If technically possible, improve handling using an active suspension
system that provides idea comfort and ride quality while cruising but
engages body control during turns and acceleration.

12. Modest improvement in horsepower without significant reduction in gas
mileage. Horsepower increase should be based on offsetting any weight
increase and providing some improvement in acceleration.

13. Do not forgot about creak and rattle control. This should be less of a
problem on the LS series but the GS and RX series are having
problems in this area. Not a good sign.

Thanks

chris65amg · April 2005

""I am in the market to purchase a new LS series sedan and have some opinions regarding the future LS. First, the Lexus LS430 is a class-leading luxury sedan NOT a sport sedan. If people want significantly more horsepower and handling than please consider the GS series.""

Exactly. I mean, BMW, Mercedes and Audi may have wondered why the LS outsells the S, A8 and 7. It's just because the LS is a luxury car and theirs compromise luxury by adding sport. Now I'm all for sport in its proper time and place, but the LS is neither of the two.

rgsw · April 2005

Suggest you send this to Lexus if you have not done so already. I believe you can find their e-mail if you root around in their web pages, maybe in the owner's section. I agree with a lot of your comments. Specifically #1 as pertains to tire noise, #2 Tires & wheels should be standardized, #4f Nav/Audio should have sun shade, #5 Ipod/MP3 (competition will have it), #7 Trunk opening, #8 Increase ventilating air to seats (the heat position takes forever to warm up), #10 Agree with comments on interior, #12 Horsepower is adequate now, don't expect 2007 would weigh more, acceleration is adequate with power button engaged (increase gas mileage in lieu of increasing horsepower)........... Interesting comments.

merc1 · April 2005

That is some list. I'm betting that a lot of those are addressed with the redesign. I wouldn't hold my breath for the part about the nav system though. Too many people looking to sue anyone over stuff like that.

M

merc1 · April 2005

"I mean, BMW, Mercedes and Audi may have wondered why the LS outsells the S, A8 and 7. It's just because the LS is a luxury car and theirs compromise luxury by adding sport. Now I'm all for sport in its proper time and place, but the LS is neither of the two."

Huh? Compromised because they offer sport? The S-Class rides just as well or better (Consumer Reports) than the LS. Sport on a S is an option package or different model like an S55 AMG. You're forgetting a big reason why the LS outsells the competition, a 56K starting priced compared to bascially 70k for any of the other cars you mentioned. The only car that really wears the sporting theme on its sleeve is the 7-Series and that isn't the reason why the LS outsells it by a long short. Try idrive, reliability, price etc. etc. it surely isn't because the 7-Series, A8 or S are too sporty.

M

rcf8000 · April 2005

I believe that the reason that the LS outsells its German competitors IS partially because it is known to have a more comfortable ride. Unfortunately, in an attempt to copy the Germans, I'm told that LS430s are being shipped into the Western Region only with 18 inch wheels. This is dumb.

syswei · April 2005

If I were Lexus I'd offer the option of either 17" or 19" wheels for the next LS, and let the switch, if necessary, be made at port or at the dealer.

callmedrfill · April 2005

For 2007, send a standard LS over with 17" wheels, and a suspension designed for maximum ride comfort.

As an OPTION (remember those?), have a 19" wheel package, with an appropriately sporty suspension adjustment.

An Autobahn Pkg.?

Life is as simple as you make it. 80% will get the std. LS, but people who own one and want better handling, or people who never considered the LS because it's too soft around the middle, will gravitate towards a Sports. Pkg. LS.

I don't want any slogans changed (Passionate?) if they aren't going to be lived up to. Show us PASSION.

Give people options. Let us decide what's best for us. Easy stuff, folks.

Merc

I thought we straightened this knot (in your stomach) out! Didn't the LS fairly whup the S in a C&D Comparison (along with sales in general approaching 3 to 1?)? I heard the S-Class was rock bottom, dreaming it was a VW? You are the first to offer the S-Class is possibly superior to the LS in ride quality. It sure is prettier, but smoother? No. That's news, my friend. I know C&D disagrees with you (and is disgruntled by the fact.

DrFill

ljflx · April 2005

Actually Consumer Reports said the S-class and LS ride were very close and gave the nod to the 2004 S-class in ride by a tad. In 2001 I felt the same way but gave the nod to the LS. I haven't drove anything later than a 2003 S-class so I can't say the S improved ride quality firsthand but a number of changes in 2004 were made that probably did. What's the difference we are talking about scores in the 95-100 range in ride quality with both cars and both have always been the favored cars of CR. If you are looking for luxurious ride either car will succeed superbly, I find the luxury ride falls off with the other cars in the group, but these two are always at the top and it's always a photo finish.

chris65amg · April 2005

""Huh? Compromised because they offer sport?""

Why, yes. I'm glad you've caught on so fast. Perhaps that was overshooting, but the LS just doesn't sell well because it's cheap. I mean, we have Focus's (which are fine cars) being advertised on TV almopst constantly (at least here in Indiana) with over 2k factory rebates plus dealer offers, and the Toyota Corolla, which starts at more anyway, is still outselling it by a large margin with little or no rebate.... hmm. The pricing is even more apparant when you get into the LS, as it is hard to find a "base" LS. That's my main gripe with Toyota. Anyway, a well-equipped (a package or two) will run you about 70k. Uh-oh. The A8 starts at 66 grand with AWD. And the S-Class starts at 64k. 9,000$ isn't too terribly much when searching for a large luxury sedan like these. If you can find a base LS

The only car I mentioned that breaks the 70k mark base is the 7 series. People don't buy it because it's ugly. (at least that's what I think)

I've driven a 760iL and the ride on an LS is smoother. However, money is an issue, but not nearly as big as you think.

callmedrfill · April 2005

Maybe I'll git two?

I haven't checked recently, but I'm sure the S starts around $75-77k for the lightweight S430.

LJ

I'm not a big CR guy. If I want a nice blow dryer or sumpin', I guess I'll pick it up.

C&D has made a habit of picking the LS as it's King of the Ring, while saying this car clearly is not their cup of tea. According to them, it's been a while since the S has been competitive.

With their lofty prices, COMAND, and poor power-to-weight ration, I see their point.

DrFill

ljflx · April 2005

CR says very nice things about the S-class. It just wishes its reliability was a lot better.

There is no question in my mind that it is a great car nor do I have any doubt that it and the LS are the most refined of all the lux cars in the space. The S scored lousy in C&D and the current R&T (European only) mainly because it has moved more toward great ride and a bit away from sport in the base cars. Why not? - it has a sport alternative anyway and a super sport alternative in the AMG models. You get a bunch of guys rating cars that are looking for sport characteristics in a lux class that should be defined by luxurious ride, super interiors, creature comforts and ultimate refinement, all things these guys have minimal concerns about. Based on what the guys rating the cars are looking for I never expect the LS or the S (unless its an AMG) to win any of those comparos. Based on what the car buyers are looking for they will always win and sell the most vehicles in the segment - year after year after year etc etc. Simply put - we have a case here of a bunch of doctors that don't know how to take the temperature of the buyer. Read between the lines though and you can see the best lux car the buyer wants. If the LS wasn't around and I was shopping for a lux sedan - as I will be in 2007 - I'd head straight to MB and say my prayers about reliability.

I think the S has the car of choices for many. You want lux and refinement take the base car. You want sport clad - go with the sport model. You want to give up the fabulous ride for handling - open the door with the AMG behind it but be prepared to pay thru the nose. I think in 2007 you will see a fresh non-MB looking LS that copies the MB model approach instead.

S-class price - I've seen the S430 advertised as low as $65K. It's not moving well in advance of the new model and $10K+ discounts are widespread. That is what Chris was likely referring to.

merc1 · April 2005

I thought we straightened this knot (in your stomach) out! Didn't the LS fairly whup the S in a C&D Comparison (along with sales in general approaching 3 to 1?)? I heard the S-Class was rock bottom, dreaming it was a VW? You are the first to offer the S-Class is possibly superior to the LS in ride quality. It sure is prettier, but smoother? No. That's news, my friend. I know C&D disagrees with you (and is disgruntled by the fact).

Nope. Check CR, and I was speaking of ride quality in response to the notion that the LS sells better because the European cars are too sporty, which is simply not even close to being true.

M

oac · April 2005

But this is a forum for the 2007 LS.

chris65amg · April 2005

"But this is a forum for the 2007 LS."

Yep. I agree. Merc1, Not trying to start a war here, but I would just rather have an LS than an S-Class because I believe that the S-Class is not the caliber of luxury car that the LS is. In my opinion, that is because Mercedes made these AMG versions that try to turn a very large car into something that it isn't. A lot of people who buy these cars (hint: older people) don't give a tinker's toot about how much faster a Benz is than an LS. I'm sorry that you are so upset.

Let me just reword my original (about 10 posts ago) so I don't hurt anyones's feelings.

I think that the LS is a better luxury car than the S-Class because it caters to more people because it is devoid of sport. The S-Class is not, and some would say that it is more balanced. However, a lot of the target buyer don't really care, so they buy the LS. Also, the LS is cheaper. On top of that, quality issues have been plaguing Mercedes as of late. Wheras the LS has been on top of JDP&A for many years (9 i believe?) But this petty comparo of the S-Class, which is an older car anyway, has nothing to do with the LS. I believe I've said all I'm going to say about that.

Now onto the new LS, which I believe this topic is about.

I really think that the new LS has the potential to blow the doors off of the competition. If you factor in the fact that it
a) starts pretty cheap
b) super ride quality
c) quiet, lexus interior
. If Lexus can eccentuate these things without raising the bottom line too much, than it will be a home run, hybrid or not. Although a hybrid would ertainly do better, because hybrids are "in" right now.

jchan2 · April 2005

Lexus should try to keep its current buyers rather than aim for younger people. How many 26 year olds can afford the pricetag of an LS430? An IS300 maybe, but then again, the new IS is coming out this fall.

topspin628 · April 2005

I think it would be a good thing to offer a bit more sporting LS for those who prefer that type of ride. This would not dilute the pool of base LS buyers but could broaden the appeal of the line. It would also offer a more rare car and so would appeal to that segment who values exclusivity as a priority as well. This is a proven success formula for BMW and MB with their M and AMG models.
It would be interesting for Lexus to let the engineers go "wild" without having to worry about a mass appeal. But I'm only talking improved driving dynamics in suspension, steering, sport seats etc. Maybe a few more horses too.

Regarding steering, this is an area that I think the LS could use a bit of improvement as I find it a little too light and overboosted for my tastes. One would think that with all of the technology available someone would come up with a variable steering system that one could set to "sport" comfort etc.

merc1 · April 2005

No one is "upset" here I just disagree with the theory that a S-Class is compromised because it offers seperate sport models. The AMG versions of the S-Class have nothing to do with the basic luxury of a S430 or S500. The S-Class offers more choice than any other car in the segment, hence its unrivaled popularity around the world. In this country it still outsells all the newer European cars despite its age and it would most likely outsell the LS too if it costs the same. I didn't take issue with what you'd rather have, makes no difference to me.

It is very interesting that you think the LS is for older folks that don't care how it handles or how fast it is, a lot of LS owners on the sedans board vehemently disagree with that anytime someone suggested such in the past.

M

k_mitsui · April 2005

Hello All
I am very grateful to hear all the comments raised for the LS sedan for the past few days and I do appreciate and encourage more members (especially current LS owners) from this website should participate and contribute this forum since every single opinion you raised in this forum would be definitely helpful when the Toyota engineers designing the new LS sedan.
Due to the fact that I have to handle a large number of messages coming from the Japanese automotive forum, I have inform Kevin to take my place and respond your questions if he have any free time this week. Since hes a highly talented engineer and has number of years in assisting Mr. Suzuki to design some of the best sedans Toyota produces. Therefore he might be able in answering some of the questions that I might not be able to answer. However due to the fact that he does not participate in the LS project and has an obligation to not release any information that is consider too sensitive in nature. So he might not be able to answering very specific technical information for the new LS sedan such as What is the exact horsepower or interior and exterior equipments the new LS would have? because the company and himself would save it to the last. However what he can do is to give you more accurate information on what you might expect or whats not on the new LS sedan and able to confirm whether or not the rumors coming from auto magazines are accurate or not.

Ken

rgsw · April 2005

Merc 1: Let's take the comparisons to the High End Luxury Marques forum. The title of this forum is 2007 LS430... We need not turn this forum into a comparison forum like HELM forum. Please don't take offense, just my personal opinion.

rgsw · April 2005

Thanks for your post. Looking forward to Kevin's updates and comments. Maybe someone is listening.

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