Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

atlas7 · January 2006

How muc HP does the MB S450 have?

lexus460l · January 2006

The MB S450 has about 335 HP

atlas7 · January 2006

Ok, pretty good size difference in HP. LS460 has 380hp vs. MB 450 has 335hp, I don't see it as a direct competitor. Seems the MB 550 with 382 HP would be the direct competition for LS 460.

tagman · January 2006

Interesting to see the process of picking a single specification such as horsepower and then determining that there is nothing else to compare between vehicles. There are dozens of factors to consider. As a great example, this Edmunds site just recently compared a Lexus IS 350 to the BMW 330i. The Lexus was the clear power/acceleration winner, but in the end . . . after considering ALL the things that truly matter . . . the review made it very clear that the BMW was the top dog. So, as you can see, HP is only one single factor when making a fair and complete comparison.
TagMan

callmedrfill · January 2006

For actually reading and understanding my posts, as this is a forgotten art at times.

I can read Merc's mind now, that the cache, the perceived superiority of Mercedes, and it's impressive 100+ year heritage, will lend credibility and value to the S450, and maybe enough to warrant a higher price and lower power. This could very well be true.

Regarding the IS, having just left the Houston car show myself, the rear seat of the IS is ABYSMAL! The front only has average space for the class, certainly less than the Zephyr or other domestics, so you can't really donate anything, front to rear. That hurts it's competitive value.

If the IS had a stick, though, it would clean up on all these comparisons. An auto just emphasizes it's technical side, and cripples it's ability to communicative with the driver. As good as the IS is, it will NEVER beat a BMW MT car. Not possible.

With the new LS style and power, and the quality and luxury that is by now a given, Mercedes maybe powerless to stop it's assention at this point. But the S-Class will always be a standard-bearer.

But "New Money" loves Lexus. There are 50 new Millionaires in America every day!

DrFill

lexus460l · January 2006

I am really interested in the features of the LS 460L because the MB S550 has things like the night view assist and the distronic that is helpful in stop and go traffic. Does anyone know if the Lexus will ahve all of that. And about the power rear door closures, does it mean like the door will automatically close at the touch of a button like the power doors on the minivans excluding the sliding doors that are on the vans.

tagman · January 2006

Thanks for the Kudos and compliments. I enjoy your posts.

Lexus has achieved "social acceptance" and represents "success" at the entry tier (sort of a "you have arrived!" greeting to the new millionaires you mentioned), without a doubt.

The Edmunds review of the new S-Class is a must-read.

I can not agree with you, however, that Mercedes may be powerless to stop the Lexus assention. I think it is more likely that Lexus will be in the same overall position (although slightly elevated this time around) it has historically been in . . . a great alternative that has great value written all over it . . . but not necessarily the top dog . . . at least not yet.
TagMan

callmedrfill · January 2006

The LS600hL will show how far Lexus can go. I expect it to have every ounce of power and luxury a S600 will, but should cost less and be much more efficient.

Only one thing can stop Lexus at this point, avirice.

The S-Class can't push the LS around anymore. Mercedes salesmen were not please in Detroit!

Lexus LS will be THE CAR in 3 years. THE car you want in this class.

DrFill

tagman · January 2006

Speaking for myself, the ONLY LS I would consider to purchase would be the LS600hL. I love and respect MANY of these high end vehicles, but my next purchase will REQUIRE fuel efficiency as a general feature of the vehicle, regardless of its price. I don't wish to get political or anything, but I've been around the block enough to come to the point where I am totally done with gas hogs. DONE.

As far as the other features go, I also prefer the long wheelbase, and that further points to the LS600hL as the "winner" in the Lexus LS lineup, IMO.

I give tons of credit to Mercedes for the S-Class achievement. It's simply gorgeous. The new LS is an improvement, but the styling is . . .well . . . we'll just have to see how these vehicles all stack up in the critic's comparisons . . . and yours, too, of course.

TagMan

callmedrfill · January 2006

The humps aren't that bad, but I hate the taillights, and the general slope of the rear deck.

The LS profile is very nice, the best view. The detailing in the C-Pillar is without peer. The rear shares much with the IS. It cast a confident stance, if nothing else.

I've only seen the SWB version. Live. I have the LWB on DVD/Tivo.

My point is, people have NEVER bought the LS for style, now it can turn some heads, especially with the Germans taking a step back.

The Last 740 was sweeter than anything out today, or tomorrow for that matter! Instant classic! :shades:

DrFill

atlas7 · January 2006

Understood, lots of things to consider,clearly price is one. I think the LS460 will be less expensive and have a lot more horses. So there is no comparison on HP and price, so where is the direct competition? Wouldn't they have to be comparable in one of these two areas to be direct competitors? I don't see the LS 460 at 80k?

tagman · January 2006

Read up on the reviews. The overwhelming consensus is that they're ALL somewhat "bangled". Having done so doesn't place the Mercedes and BMW back a step and Lexus up a step. This is one area where they are all sharing a similar path, and therefore they all go the same direction on this one . . . whether it is up or down.

I agree that the LS profile view is decent. There are also other good ideas such as the integrated exhaust. Overall, however, it has a tendency to look similar to the lesser expensive models, rather than leap ahead with a very dramatic statement, IMO.

Again, I suggest you read the Edmunds review, because I think it will be indicative of more to come . . . The Mercedes has clearly NOT taken a step back, but has actually taken a HUGE leap forward, and the critics agree with that assessment so far . . . calling it the new benchmark!!!!

I think it would be fair to say that both vehicles emerge with improvements, not just one, and that this is only the beginning of what will be years of healthy competition.
TagMan

atlas7 · January 2006

I am sure the new 550 S Class is one heck of a car,it better be, the sticker on it was 94k. I saw the 550 S yesterday at the DC auto show and I don't find it to be a great looking car. Was very disappointed that the LS 460 was not there.

callmedrfill · January 2006

Have read both C&D's and Edmunds' reviews. They were both impressive.

I'm just sayin' that, dynamically, I expect them both to land in a similar place, dynamically, since room, power, and luxury will be similar, and that price, economy, styling, and a buyer's past experience will close the deal.

For $90k, the S-Class should be more impressive, that's what I'm sayin'. It's not as clean as it's predecessor. The S takes one step back, the 750 has taken two steps back. And the LS takes a step forward from it's predecessor.

That's all the LS needed. More power, style in the same park. Mission accomplished!

DrFill

tagman · January 2006

For $90k, the S-Class should be more impressive

DrFill - The review calls it the new benchmark! You say it should be MORE impressive, and that it is a step back from the previous model. The review indicates otherwise. It takes a lot to satisfy you, it seems. But you did mention the price tag, didn't you? . . . so . . . as usual with Lexus fans, it is the "value" that needs to be perceived. You perceive it in the Lexus but you do not perceive in the Mercedes. That's the reason for your remark. And that's what I've been saying all along. The Lexus REQUIRES that perception as an integral part of its success. The Mercedes, on the other hand, is appreciated more for its merits alone. There IS a fundamental difference here that I am trying to point out, and you make a great example of it based upon your quote.

BTW, the extra power, newer style, and techno goodies (married to the price advantage!) will certainly further the LS along its path of success.

TagMan

samstayton · January 2006

Tagman

your comments are sound. Lexus although much better than its european rivals will still be the alternative and will not be able to command same level of premiums. But I think
most of us are shy in accepting the real reasons.

The real reason is lexus is an asian brand. An asian brand can never command a premium more than a european brand.

North americans and europeans will never accept a lexus costing same or more than european brands. Particularly north european brands.

There is however another reason why lexus cannot charge premium. Because it does not make 500 and 600 hp v12.

This I think is an enormous oversight on lexus' part. They are going global. Lexus is trying to gain a foothold in europe, islamic countries, asia and even poor countries like India.

The ultimate criteria to be accepted as a luxury brand is to to have a v12. Think about it, all high luxury brands have 12-cylinder engines.

bentley, rolls, aston martin, ferrari, lamborghini, maybach, mercedes, bmw, audi, even volkswagen. Toyota makes v12 for century which sells in japan. But it has only 300 HP. A v12 with just 300 hp will never sell outside japan.

Out of these 11 V12s which I have mentioned, 9 are made in germany. 5 for german brands, 3 for german owned brands (rolls, bentley and lamborhini) and 1 in a ford factory in germany (for aston martin).

Only ferrari makes v12 and sells it world over and you can see it contributes to ferrari's allure and worldwide dominance, not to mention the 14 F1 titles and 9 Le Mans vitories.

samstayton · January 2006

Lexus urgently needs a v12 if it is to be accepted as a global top tier luxury brand. And in order to over come the insult of an underdog, it will not only have to match the europeans (read germans) but to exceed them.

Germans make 6.0 L, 440-450 hp naturally aspirated engines

Mercedes and Volkswagen also make turboharged v12s and w12s, like the 5.5 L , 500 hp in S600 and 6.0 L 600 hp in S65 AMG.

Mercedes also makes 7.1 L 600 hp AMG naturally aspirated engine for pagani zondo.

Lexus should make a naturally aspirated 7.0 L 600 hp V12.
That might help it to a certain extent if it wants to become top luxury brand.

It can also make this v12 more fuel efficient compared to european v12s using some advanced technology. Needless to say it will also have to be ten times more reliable.

samstayton · January 2006

According to many, LS 600h will provide v12 power and v6 fuel economy. That is not true.

The LS 600h, may be able to match BWM v-12 and audi w12 producing 440 hp, (although I doubt that too), it likely wont be able to match mercedes v12s which produce 500 and 600 hp.

This is because the hybrid motor makes approx. 70 hp. Mating this to 380 hp will only make 450 hp if that.

Although it sounds maniacal at the moment, Lexus should rather make a v12 and mate its motor to make a hhbrid and sell it as V16 power and v8 fuel economy, then it will truly set a global standard.

tagman · January 2006

Tagman

your comments are sound.

Thank you. You have made a big case for a V12 from Toyota/Lexus. Certainly it would be an achievement. However, I must say that I think Lexus is on the right path actually to use the hybrid with the V8 combination. This will sufficiently boost power AND provide the fuel efficiency that is now becoming more important. Hybrid technology may not be the ultimate solution when the dust settles, but it has a number of advantages. It already has momentum, public recognition, and investment. It is a viable approach at this time.

I think that the hybrid HP limits you indicated in your next posts may be exceeded as time goes, due to additional advances and the use of multiple motors. History is pointing to high fuel prices, and the public wants and needs affordable energy. I believe the best days for very large ICE's are now behind us, and I salute Toyota/Lexus for their trail-blazing approach to hybrid technology. I also salute Honda, as they have been one of the most aggressive and successful companies in this field. I am also a big believer in future diesel and diesel/hybrid powertrains, as well as fuel cell technology.

The German car fans have often claimed that the Europeans do all the research and development, and that Toyota side-steps these costs, thus passing on the savings to the consumer, but it is clear that the Japanese have been in the trenches with hybrid technology. Credit where credit is due.

The market is proving that people will pay a premium for clean air and fuel effecient vehicles. But it is not a slam dunk. Highlander sales have slowed, as an example, but the new 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid is hot, hot, hot. Why? Because the public still wants vehicles that are desireable and meet MANY criteria to satisfy a purchase decision.

I am convinced that the Lexus LS600hL will be a smashing success. It will be an ultimate vehicle in some respects, and while we can debate its comparisons to the Mercedes, BMW, and others, it will deserve recognition for a truly amazing automotive achievement, IMO.

TagMan

cyclone4 · January 2006

TagMan, I am in total agreement with you concerning the hybrid technology. Like you, I want a very energy efficient automobile that is great for the environment and also at the same time has all the luxury and technological advances money can buy. That is why my next automobile will be the LS600h. I see NO advantage in V12 gas guzzling engines. The days of the gas guzzler are rapidly fading in the twilight. Thank you for your insightful posts.

chris65amg · January 2006

Besides ability to make large amounts of horsepower, hybrids are chic. Hip. In. Whatever you want to call it. People will see this huge sedan with its 8 speed and crazy hybrid powertrain and they will say "I want that". In fifteen years, Lexus has kicked some German tail. I have no reason to believe it'll stop here.

I can see a V-12 in Lexus' future, perhaps for use in its super-high end LF-A or something to that effect. It is, however, important to realize that Toyota will only build a huge motor if they know that it'll work. That is just their way

callmedrfill · January 2006

Sorry for the confusion, but my message and your interpretation of my message are different.

What I was implying was that the S550 should be more impressive than the Lexus LS, given it's higher price point, past and present.

Not discounting the S550, not saying it's not a great car, or the new standard, but I am VERY confident Lexus will have the last word on who is the standard around here.

As far as I know, the only flaws in the current LS are styling and HP, and those have been erased with verve!

The only question to me is does Lexus want to sell 40-45k units at $65k-90k, or sell 20-25k units at 75-100k. They could sell that many, and outsell the S450/S550, but I don't see them doing that right now.

The new LS I've seen, can sell on it's merits (and sterling track record) alone, without a major discount to the Germans. It's as good looking, or better, than the 750/S-Class, as powerful, better quality, as many top-flite luxury features, is now as big, offers more gears, and a hybrid.

A price difference is not an apology from L

It's a gift. Thank you, Lexus! :shades:

DrFill

rgsw · January 2006

I can't see where Lexus needs to match the V-12 mystique. The LS 460 will beat the LS 430 "0 to 60". I don't think Lexus will put a V-12 in the LS unless the market show a clear need/desire for such. Many current large engines are shutting down cylinders to achieve cruise economy. At most, the v-12 is a status symbol that Lexus LS does not need. As I recall, the Auburn Touring Car had a V-16 or V-12; however, it was a giant automobile and gas was inexpensive. Gas mileage was not a factor.

tagman · January 2006

DrFill - your words are well spoken and meaningful. Dare I make a slight addition to those well-chosen words? I think you are accurate to say that the price difference is not an apology, and perhaps calling it a gift is an expression of the appreciation in the marketplace for the LS at a more affordable price than some of the other HELMs. But the price advantage is also a necessary key component to the strategic marketing plan that Toyota/Lexus has in place. That is not an insult to the Lexus in any way. If anything, it is a compliment to the marketing brilliance that will continue to be successful. Unless, as you have said, the greed factor gets in the way.

TagMan

callmedrfill · January 2006

Lexus has nurtured and cultivated the LS image , and it's customer base, to the point where many Lexus owners will go wherever the LS goes, and this new car will sell some non-Lexus, German-intending new buyers as well.

The last 15 years have been so good for Lexus that the LS can move right next to the S-Class. Dynamically, I think Lexus has moved to the head of the table, along with the S550.

I expect a 30% sales increase for the LS. I don't see that level of growth for the S-Class.

DrFill

ljflx · January 2006

callmedrfill - I agree on a large sales increase but I'd prefer to go with absolute numbers or fine tune it better. For example a 30% increase means what - an increase over first year sales of the current LS in 2001, the last year sales of the model in 2006 or increase over calendar 2005 (mix of 2005 and 2006 models). The production will be cut by a lot at some point in the next few months so I'd expect when all is said and done this will not be a big selling year for the LS - at least not thru August.

My instinct tells me the current car in calendar 2007 will sell 20-25% more than the 2001 car sold in calendar 2001. So I'd expect sales to wratchet up to near or just over 40K units with about 15K units being the LWB car.

tagman · January 2006

I expect a 30% sales increase for the LS. I don't see that level of growth for the S-Class.

Whoa, DrFill, contain your irrational exuberance!

Expect a healthy sales increase, but production is not unlimited. The addition of the long wheelbase will be interesting, as the market will first react in a kneejerk fashion, and then ultimately settle into a more predictable ratio between the two wheelbases.

TagMan

ljflx · January 2006

tagman - they had a huge increase to 35K cars in 2001 which was actually 40% more than they expected to sell that year. I can easily see 40K units in the first full year of production here.

tagman · January 2006

Is there a firm date for LS600hL production?

ljflx · January 2006

Tagman - I believe it is expected just before the end of the year but after the September debut of the other LS460 models.

This take from the NY Times - note the pricing issue mentioned but it's unclear if they are just talking the gas car which we all know would be in the 80's tops or the LS600H re the $100K pricepoint.

Separate note as we may have bantered this on the high end board - Glad I got out of Google - missed a bit of the upside but caught some of it in a different way as I got back into Microsoft. Google was just priced too much to perfection on all cylinders.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/08/automobiles/autospecial/lexus-LS460.html?ex=11- 38856400&en=8a7fac617ff4bf37&ei=5070

callmedrfill · January 2006

First Ting: This confirms my incredibly accurate predictions that the LS600hL will not reach $100k. :surprise:

You are very welcome!

My #2: I was actually comparing recent 2005 sales numbers (which are down about 15% from 2004, to about 26k) to potential '07 numbers.

Now that I think about it, I was being too conservative! 40,000 units sounds about right! 42-43,000 is not unreachable! Good job, Ljflx. :shades:

DrFill

nvbanker · January 2006

>I can not agree with you, however, that Mercedes may be powerless to stop the Lexus assention.<

You sure that hasn't already been a battle lost? Lexus outsells Mercedes in North America already....

nvbanker · January 2006

>Lexus has nurtured and cultivated the LS image , and it's customer base, to the point where many Lexus owners will go wherever the LS goes, and this new car will sell some non-Lexus, German-intending new buyers as well.<

Yup - I had an S-500 on order, until I ran across the particular LS430 I now have - took it for the weekend, and cancelled the S-500, bought the LS. I had no intention of even considering the LS prior. Between the cost difference, and the quality, and the fact that nothing needed to be fixed on it (which was not the case with the S-500 I test drove), I'm pretty much sold. Yes, I'll consider another one, and probably move the wife into a Lexus SUV soon.

On another topic - I was surprised today, when I got my LS back from the Lexus dealer, to see that the invoice said they had filled the engine with Shell 10W-30. I'm not aware of Shell making a synthetic oil, or even a blend. Am I wrong? I thought Lexus used only top line stuff - I can get Shell 10W-30 at any garage, for a lot less than $155. Not a big deal - just a little surprised. Ok, it was a letdown. My Lincoln dealers use Ford oil, which is a synthetic blend, at least. :surprise:

mikegiller · January 2006

I believe that some have forgotten the V10 5.0L that Toyota has already developed for the LF-A. Yes, the engine has been built and ready for production, but into who knows what. In short, there will not be a V12 in the works for Lexus' supercar since the V10 has been chosen (and boy does it sound nice, as per the video clip on the Lexus Japan website from the Tokyo Auto Show).

There has been rumour of a 5.0L V8 as well. The 4.6L has 380 horses, roughly, and from what I understand, there is a great possibility of a 5.0L V8 being used in tandem with HSD, as oposed to the 4.6L that everyone is talking about, which makes sense since it could be used in the GS as well.

I would predict that a 5.0L V8 could push out 410 horsepower. Mate that with HSD and throw in the low-ball number of 70 hp and you have 480 HP for the LS 600h, which in my books is enough to spank any AMG-line S-Classen.

380 hp LS 0-60 mph under 5.5 seconds.

410 hp LS 0-60 mph in 5 seconds.

480 hp LS 0-60 mph in 4.5 seconds. And so GREEN while doing it!

ljflx · January 2006

Somewhere I read that the battery going into the LS600H is a second gen battery - more power, more highway usage, better economy. I also read the car will put out 520 horses. But you raise an interesting point. Does Lexus eventually role out a V10 mated with a battery in a higher up LS still?? I guess it's possible if they really bring the LF-A to market but I also keep reading that Toyota is not planning on playing the HP wars. At the same time 520HP argues otherwise - if it is true.

swisspraveen · February 2006

i think, the ls won't get a v12.
according to a german magazine, the v12 must be reserved for the new super-lexus currently called hls (high luxury sedan) which will be priced above 100k.
the v12 will have 500-600 hp.

here's the link, it's in german, but the pics might be interesting:
link title

cyclone4 · February 2006

I was under the impression that the LS600h would not be available until well into the year 2007. The sooner the better for me since I will be anxiously waiting for it. The 600h WILL be my next vehicle. It will be interesting to see it unveiled in the New York Auto Show this spring.

garyh1 · February 2006

FWIW, here is the Google translation of that story:

Lexus HLS

Lexus plans Top series under the contraction HLS (High Luxury Sedan) above the LS 430. The new flagship is particularly meant for the US market and is to cost over 100,000 dollar. A sedan and a Coupé are intended. As motorizing the luxury section of Toyota considers a V8 and 500 to 600 HP strong a twelve-cylinder; the eight-cylinder variant is to be offered additionally as Hybdridversion with electric motor.

tagman · February 2006

Hey sherlock . . . is this the ONLY information out there on this, or is there more? That's amazing.

samstayton · February 2006

I read some of the posts here in response to my post which started this v12 related discussion.

The general sense from what I read is this: That lexus does not "need" a v12. What good could it bring besides the gas guzzling. And, its so out of date and akin to a dinosaur on the verge of expulsion from the evolutionary surge due to its own weight.

Others have this idea based on some online rumors that a new brand will be created by the shoguns of aichi which will herald the arrival of a v12 "supersedan" and a "supercoupe".

Yet others have commented that lexus undercutting mercedes by "twenty eight thousand dollars" is a marketing marvel.

Sadly, the customers, and by that I mean who actually unravel their wallets, do not wish to agree.

Let me put this as a corollary since this is a bit counter intuitive. When rolls-royce was constructed it was called a marvel in engineering and the whole british press exulted in joy because it could run without breakdowns for thousands of miles. When lexus achieved that marvel,that pin-drop silence, that smoothness, that comfort, that quality, it was termed as "dependable", not the spirited "marvel in engineering" by most, though there are some exceptions.

This kind of engineering disappeared from rolls royce after world war II due to many reasons, chief among them the loss of worldwide empire which caused deep trauma followed by a strange mix of depression and nostalgia and the re-making of the psyche.

The leadership was in flux till 1950s when Mercedes emerged as the "one". Till the late 1980s, mercedes benz, and in particular the S-class were celebrated as over-engineered cars, "engineered like no other car in the world" and all kinds of superlatives were added. Naturally, it commanded top premium. But, and thats an important but, rolls-royce continued to command stratospheric premiums.

When lexus took over from mercedes, and it did, the response was not unanimous. While some clearly acknowledged lexus' leadership, other were shocked and bewildered and then enraged.

How could an asian brand which sold cars for every tom, dick and harry could achieve this. It was again a traumatic phase for many of us.

Now the question: If, just imagine for a moment if, Lexus becomes pathetically unreliable as the S-class and 760 have been for quite a few years, as jaguar has been for for well over "three decades", would we be so nice to Lexus? would we. Certainly not, lexus' goodwill, its reputation would evaporate 100 times faster than the european brands.

The standards with which we measure our own, we nigh not use for others, for our child is a bundle of emotional attachment for us, the child of the neighbor - a thesis in reason.

Purchasing a lexus is a rational decision. There is no emotional attachment, never. Purchasing a european, well, thats another matter.

Therefore, to reinforce its profile in the eyes of the rational buyer, a V12 must be created. This will solidify the engineering credentials, and raise the confidence of lexus customers.

I for one, will be the first in line, as it will be a cool headed rational decision for me. Because, I know that a V12 from lexus will be infinitely better than anything from europe, and 20-30 thousand dollars less than competitors. If lexus sells a bad product, I will drop it like a hot-potato, and so will others, no emotional feelings here.

adel1 · February 2006

I am interested to have 2007 LEXUS 460L, I would like to know when this Car will be availabile in the California.
Also if you have any Information, please send it to me.
Do you have any idea about the Price?
By the way I owen now 2001 LEXUS LS430 With ultra, We Enjoyed very much, I have also 1999 Mercedes S420, but I
Will never Buy MERCEDES again.
Thank you.

Adel Boutros

samstayton · February 2006

In fact many chief executives of european companies and/or their senior management admit though not freely in the press, that what they sell are dreams and nostalgia, so it does not matter if their products are equal to a sack of garbage, whereas lexus sells products, nothing more. I have read one such european executive boasting along these lines on yahoo news with my own eyes and on several occasions on other news portals too.

They do not admit selling garbage but the words they use are very diplomatic as is expected from a gentleman.
Their comments are worth noting because it amounts to over 90 billion dollars of overpriced garbage passing through the customs as "dreams".

In fact, for that matter even cadillac should make a v12 to give the europeans a run for their money.

tagman · February 2006

Purchasing a lexus is a rational decision. There is no emotional attachment, never. Purchasing a european, well, thats another matter.

Therefore, to reinforce its profile in the eyes of the rational buyer, a V12 must be created. This will solidify the engineering credentials, and raise the confidence of lexus customers.

samstayton . . . you've tossed out a lot of coyote food, no doubt. Firstly, there is basically NO SUCH THING as a rational purchase of an automobile. Unless I need to go back to college and get my degree all over again, I maintain that there is no such thing. Yes, I will say that some buyers approach the purchase with less outward emotion, but purchasing behavior ultimately is largely "NEED FULFILLMENT" and whether or not a consumer fulfills his need to be "intellectual and logical" about his purchase, or whether the consumer just buys it because it "looks sexy" or "prestigious" is the same emotional process. The only difference is to the marketers who can target which emotion is most likely aroused. Without the social acceptance of the Lexus, which further reinforces the image of the product, and other emotionally appealing attributes, the sales would be less. Left to be an outcast would result in a "Saab" mentality, which is not the case here at all. Lexus buyers are not necessarily more rational. They are, however, well-educated, which demographic studies would show, as are most HELM buyers . . . but their preferences are fairly common, however, and typical enough for the product to appeal to large numbers. Highly educated and intelligent consumers can, in fact, be as irrational as anyone in the population. Those large purchase numbers do not make the purchase any more "rational" than any other purchase . . . just more "typical". Typical does not equal rational, and there are many consumer purchases that prove this, perhaps such as "fast food". It is also common, and appeals to many, but is it "rational"? . . . Not at all. That said, it is safe to say that the purchase of Lexus vehicles successfully satisfies/fulfills a combination of consumer needs and does so in large numbers.

Your second statement is flawed because it initially assumes the presence of "rational" buyers as a special or unique group which does not actually exist, and it further states that the Lexus customer needs to have his confidence raised by creating a V12. Sorry to inform you, but the Lexus customer ALREADY has his confidence raised, and that is one of the very core reasons for being a Lexus customer to begin with.

Now . . . a V12 may have a positive role, maybe not . . . but not for the reasons you indicated.

Sorry, dude, but a lot of this post doesn't work for me, and I hope I have explained why.

TagMan

ljflx · February 2006

Great post.

garyh1 · February 2006

Firstly, there is basically NO SUCH THING as a rational purchase of an automobile.

Interesting discussion, gents. Tagman, would it help if we substituted "more practical" for "rational"? I know personally my heart wanted a S430, but my brain went for the LS430, based on my wanting to own it for a long time and my hating to deal with unscheduled trips to the repair shop, and finally, paying less money to get those advantages that in my personal value system outranked prestige, styling, and even handling.

If you put all the broadly (if not universally) acknowledged advantages of the LS on one side and all the advantages of the S on the other, aren't there some adjectives that describe the type of person that goes one way vs. the other?

[Perhaps this discussion fits better in the HELM forum than here. Sam, feel free to come over there and share your opinions there; if you are not familiar with it, use "Search Forums" in the left hand column for "High End Luxury Marques".]

tagman · February 2006

garyh1 - - This discussion applies just fine here AND others, as it applies to purchases at all levels. You said your heart wanted the S430 but your brain wanted the LS430. Overall, let's just say that you had "varying needs", but ultimately it was more of a fulfillment for you to "feel" like you made a "smart" or "right" decision. I don't want to beat this up, but just because you went with the "brain", doesn't mean that you didn't "need" to do so.

Remember this . . . for the most part, there are NO RIGHT OR WRONG purchase decisions . . . just our own preferences that get fulfilled. You may ask yourself, why you have the preferences you do, but does it matter, so long as you can satisfy them? And as long as they are not causing unusual purchase behavior!

And since many of us are so similar in so many ways, the marketers can rely on using those patterns of similarity to affect/satisfy our purchase behavior. Otherwise there would have to be a diferent car for each one of us. What an idea! BTW, ever wonder why does someone purchase a Saab?

TagMan

ljflx · February 2006

Another link.

So it looks like the LS600H will not be the competitor to the S600. Maybe Drfill is right and prices stay under 90K.

Lexus really getting aggressive now with these cars + the LF-A.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Car_Shows/Paris_Auto_Show/2004_Paris_A- uto_Show_Part_V.S285.A7547.html

callmedrfill · February 2006

What do ya mean maybe? :confuse:

When did this confusion start?

DrFill

tagman · February 2006

One last tidbit on all this before I go too far over the top. For those of you that "think" "reliability" appeals to the intellect only, let me offer this additional piece of the purchase-decision puzzle. Consider these emotions as they relate to reliability for a moment:

Reliability feels secure.
Reliability feels stable.
Reliability feels dependable.
Reliability reduces danger, the unexpected breakdown, and betrayal by your car.
Reliability feels good.
You can count on reliability.
Reliability feels supportive.
Reliability feels safer.
Reliability feels calmer.
Reliability feels like "everything will be OK".

So . . . how many in the human population need these feelings fulfilled? And that's just ONE of the reasons why Lexus is SO successful.

OK . . . I'll stop.

TagMan

samstayton · February 2006

Tagman

Thank you for the coyote comment. I unfortunately still believe in the comments. You have taken a tiny part of what I wrote and criticized it. In fact, according to you my argument is so coyote like, so irrational that I hope your head might not have exploded in rage which ensued upon reading my post and then replying to it.

In any case, if anyone working at toyota reads my post and is in some kind of product decision making capacity, they will get the sense of urgency. Toyota and especially companies like Honda with their strange "no V8" are on the path to automotive harakiri. There are plenty of holes in their ship.

The lack of sexy designs and performance will surely hasten their exit from North America.

The latest ford products are just the beginning of toyota's and others' end.

Lexus LS 2007 is a good product, it can be made better by adding a 600 hp V12 in the line up. Thats the best way to go in near future.

Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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