Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

syswei · April 2005

suggestions:

Hopefully the hybrid will be AWD? I was surprised that the GS450h isn't AWD. I've been wanting an LS for 10+ years but still don't have one because of the lack of AWD.

A lane-change accident avoidance system would be nice (I think Volvo introduced one - it uses a camera system to figure out in an automated way if there is a car in the blind spot). Could be camera or radar-based.

Turn signal indicators on the side mirrors, as seen on MB and some US cars.

Rear DVD entertainment system should be either center-console mounted or headrest-mounted. Ceiling drop-down units restrict rear vision.

17" wheels standard, 19" as a low-cost option.

Factory-installed satellite radio.

chris65amg · April 2005

I would love an LS that is AWD, even if it isn't the hybrid. I like the turn signals on the mirrors, but not the red ones like on GM vehicles (they look like stoplights from a distance, and they're really annoying) I love rear entertainment systems in cars, and i also agree that the ones on the ceiling block visibility in cars even more so than in SUVs. IMO headrest ones are the best, because I have to bend around to see ones on a console lol. The steering could be a little tighter, as the LS I drove was a tad floaty.

I think that the GS450h wasn't AWD in order to keep the weight down, hybrid batteries already weigh a bit

syswei · April 2005

Steering...I think someone above suggested making the steering basically user adjustable...i.e. have a electronic control to make it lighter or heavier/tighter. Makes alot of sense.

dorothyk · April 2005

For those who tend to get car sick, the ceiling mount DVD entertainment system is probably the best because the viewer can still see the horizon while watching the movie. I agree that it does interfere with rear visibility. If anyone in your family is prone to car or motion sickness, I would be careful about purchasing any system installed in the headrests or center console.

syswei · April 2005

Here's another thought...put the screens in the upper seatbacks, but with an adjustable tilt/angle.

callmedrfill · April 2005

With M-B 4Matic, and the GS and IS going AWD, Lexus sees sales lost in the North(East).

DrFill

rcf8000 · April 2005

I hope that Lexus does not copy the Germans' column mounted shifter and integrated controllers such as I-drive or Comand. One thing I'd like to see would be voice input for NAV destinations. Also, bring back Lexus Link, and figure out how to get internet availability in the car for passenger use. (You just know that this will be a big thing at some point in the future.) An i-pod integration capability would also be nice. Basically, though, don't mess with the features that have made the LS430 a big success. (Examples: the height of the car, which permits easy entry and good headroom, and the large trunk.)

syswei · April 2005

internet availability in the car for passenger use

Yes, it makes sense to build in a capability to add WiMAX access.

chris65amg · April 2005

""and the large trunk.""

Oh gosh, I know. A lot of those larger luxury sedans have pretty mediocre trunks. The regular A8 only has 15 cubes... less than a Camry.The XJ only has 16. A Maserati Quattroporte has 15 as well, but it's pretty

The 7 series has 18 cubic feet, but the opening is a pretty narrow.

"I-drive"
Greater men than I have been driven insane by this thing. I had to help my uncle figure it out on his 7. Erg. I don't know about Comand, though.

That's interesting about adjustable sttering. Do cars have that?
]

lenscap · April 2005

It looks like Lexus filed a trademark last month for the name LS 460:

http://www.auto-report.net/index.html?tm200501.html

vasy · April 2005

Ken and Kevin:

I would like to recommend some changes to the future LS that others haven't mentioned. First, replace the timing belt with a timing chain. The point is that chains don't break under normal circumstance. Toyota made such a change to the current Camry with 4-cylinder engines. I understand that a chain will likely introduce more noise than a belt, but I think that can be taken care of by newer technology. Secondly, to make the new LS more user friendly, Toyota should make most or all programmable (or changeable) features such as changing door locking preferences, activating/de-activating daytime running lights, etc. owner-programmable so that each owner can make such changes him/herself without going to the dealership from time to time. Currently, Lexus will only provide 1 such free service after purchase. Lexus dealers won't like that because they'll make less $ but it's the customers that Toyota should be trying to please. Ultimately, potential customers decide whether to buy a Lexus or not, not the dealership. I would also like to see a feature to let owners program the ventilation fan to run for a number of minutes after engine shutdown. This feature will reduce moisture/mold buildup in the AC evaporator in the summer. I understand that these recommendations might be too late for 2007 model but I think they are good ideas to think about.

syswei · April 2005

Another idea, which some other cars have implemented:

Solar-powered fan to keep interior temperatures down when parked on hot days.

syswei · April 2005

1. How about having the ability to turn on the seat heaters remotely? (They could power down automatically after a certain time if the engine isn't started up)

2. Heated steering wheel. Maybe not possible with the wood part, but even the leather part would be better than nothing.

callmedrfill · April 2005

Talk about nit-picky!

I want the water-repellent windshield glass to shed 8% more water.

That would be NICE!

DrFill

nvbanker · April 2005

"Regarding steering, this is an area that I think the LS could use a bit of improvement as I find it a little too light and overboosted for my tastes. One would think that with all of the technology available someone would come up with a variable steering system that one could set to "sport" comfort etc."

I disagree completely. (Listen up, Lexus....) A luxury car should be EASY to drive around, that's what makes it Luxury. If you want sport, get a BMW. The first Lexus I drive that requires two hands on the wheel to take an easy corner, I'm outta here and back into a Town Car, and I mean it!

chris65amg · April 2005

I think that the LS is pleasant to drive. The 7 series's seats are not comfortable in comparison, and the LS's driver's seat is huge! Don't go the GS route and compact the front seat. Also, the LS is a bigger car, so light steering is probably better than too heavy steering.

I would love some way to keep the car cool during hot days. Gosh, I drive a black car with heavier tint, and the leather got really hot when it was 81 out today (typical Indiana spring day :mad: ) I think you can turn on the AC on toyota hybrids before turning the engine on, because it's battery powered or something. Not sure on that, but I thought I read that somewhere.

So the LS will be 460, eh? So will that be good for 300+ hp? Gee, I hope they don't go overboard...

I don't know how they could heat a wooden steering wheel.... although it would help with the cold weather startups.

sv7887 · April 2005

Hi all,
How about a trunk that opens all the way like Mercedes? I always wondered why Lexus never bothered with that. Also, I'm not sure I like all the controls being through the touch screen. It would be nice to have a normal pop up screen like Infiniti and Volvo that comes up only when you're using the Nav. It would probably make the screen last longer. I'm not looking forward to the day the screen quits in my LS430. I can only bet it will cost around $1,000 to replace.

SV

jchan2 · April 2005

I don't know about the Heated Steering Wheel. Infiniti offered one on the I35 but when you ordered the Cold Weather Package it deleted the Wood/Leather steering wheel and gave you a fully leather one that was heated.

aardman · April 2005

According to the salesman who sold me my LS430 the Lexus Link will return next model year.

topspin628 · April 2005

Not everyone who buys an LS is from the Lincoln Town Car school. That's why I think it would be great if Lexus offered an AMG type option for those of us who want a bit more sport. I personally would never drive a Town Car and in fact when I've rented them, I feel a bit unsafe in it. One is so disconnected from the road and what's going on that it can be a bit of an "adventure". I prefer a car with a nice blend of comfort and feel. I think the S Class hits that sweet spot better than anyone else and would like the LS to move closer to that. For me BMW is too sporty as a luxury car (although I think it's perfect in the 3 series as a sports sedan).
Again, I'm not suggesting that the LS become a Sports car, just a few more clicks over to the steering and cornering of the S Class.

nvbanker · April 2005

And I guess that's where we differ - one of the reasons I'm not shopping the S-class , even though I think they're much better looking than the LS, and carry tons more panache, is they're a little too sporty. That's fine for AMG, not for luxury. I still like the "Queen Mary" effect. I think Cadillac is making a mistake making their DeVille feel so tight and euro feeling. There's something to be said for an Isolation Chamber and a place in this world for one. If Lexus wants to make a sport model for you, that's fine too. No problem with that - but don't make the LS steer like the 4-Runner please, or I won't buy one! That's why I drive Mountaineers instead of 4-Runners - the crappy, stiff steering. And I'm not the only oddball who feels like that. Some of us remember what a Buick Electra felt like to drive it.

ljflx · April 2005

Topspin628 - have you ever driven the Euro? It surpasses the S-class handling with virtually no ride or sound compromises from the base LS. Based on the reviews, not my driving experience, the most recent S-class model years (2004 and 2005, perhaps 2003 also) increased lux ride and sacrificed some of the handling. I am sure it was subtle to the everyday driver, just noticable to the mag testers. I wouldn't want either car to ever get remotely close to a Lincoln Towncar effect and I doubt they ever will. The latter is a boat on wheels and about as floaty and disconnected as it gets. Personally I think both the S and LS hit the nail right on the head - very good handling, spectacular ride and supreme luxury. The LS should offer the sporty options as an alternative just like Benz does and you can bet your life they will.

Lexus link - back from the dead?? - with or without the entry message ??? Why ????. :confuse:

merc1 · April 2005

" It surpasses the S-class handling with virtually no ride or sound compromises from the base LS. Based on the reviews, not my driving experience, the most recent S-class model years (2004 and 2005, perhaps 2003 also) increased lux ride and sacrificed some of the handling."

What comparo did you see where the S-Class gave up some handling for a better ride? There were no suspension changes to the base S for 2003-2005. The better ride less handling theory certainly isn't true of a Sport package S, because when it has been compared it handled nearly as well as the 7-Series.

You're comparing apples and oranges to compare a base S with the sportiest LS and then tout that the LS handles better, it should if you're going to compare two differently equipped cars.

M

topspin628 · April 2005

I would have loved to try the Euro package but the dealer I was working with told me that they were extremely rare and basically special order cars.....

I will look for another dealer for my next lease.

I think if Lexus wants to maintain and expand their market share they had better study the needs and wants of the new emerging luxury class owner. The next generation to graduate into this class of car will likely be coming from Euro models and not from Caddy and Lincoln. They will have a different set of criteria and in my opinion will want a bit more feel in the steering as well as performance and handling ability. As I said earlier, in my test drives of all the luxo cars, I felt that the S achieved this best but I went for the LS due to reliability and price/value.

rcf8000 · April 2005

In its May issue, Road and Track tested all of the European luxury makes. The S500 rated last overall out of the five cars. In "ride" it rated first of the five cars. In "handling" it rated a poor 4th, just above the Phaeton. These were the subjective ratings. In performance testing the S500 rated last in slalom and last in skidpad. So has MB sacrificed handling for ride? It would appear so. I don't know how the LS430 would have rated, obviously, but it appears that for handling the S Class isn't the car to emulate. (The 745i was the overall winner and had the best handling scores.) So go ahead, Lexus; give us a "sport" model that handles like a BMW, and leave the base model as-is.

On a personal note, I was recently looking to replace my '01 LS430, and test drove an S500. I was extremely impressed with the S500's ride quality, especially surprising because it had the sport package. I also thought the S500 seemed like a hotter car acceleration-wise than the LS430. But in the end I bought a new LS430. There are just too many negatives associated with the S500, in my mind. One of them is price, of course, but I would have bought the LS430 even if the S500 had been the same price.

merc1 · April 2005

You do realize that the S500 they tested was a base S500 without the Sport option. The 745 in this test had the Sport packaged. Of course its going to handle better. See where the handling of the S with the sport package ranked in the C&D comparo about a year ago. The base S-Class has always had the best ride of the three top-of-the-line German cars. This is nothing new so I'm not sure why this confusion exists. Mercedes hasn't sacraficed handling for ride comfort anymore than they've always balanced the two. Is the S a BMW, of course not. Does the S handle better than a LS, yep. Sport vs Euro or base vs base.

M

lenscap · April 2005

There is an article in this week's Automotive News (a very reputable dealer magazine) about the new LS. I can't access the story at this time, but here is the headline:

"Lexus will stretch flagship sedan. LS 460 also will offer industry's first hybrid V-8. To match luxury competitors, Lexus will offer a long-wheelbase version of its redesigned flagship, the LS 460, when it arrives in fall 2006. Soon after, a hybrid version of the vehicle will debut."

lenscap · April 2005

I found the link on Automotive News' sister website, autoweek.com:

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102210

Note the long-wheelbase model will be the LS 460L, and the hybrid will be called the LS 600hL (because it will have power equivalent to a 6.0-liter engine).

syswei · April 2005

Thanks for the info. The article seems to imply that the only hybrid LS will be the 600hL. If so then the only way to get hybrid in a LS might be to pay a stiff price...like the 100k that is sometimes bandied about.

rcf8000 · April 2005

Compared to the 12 cylinder competition, $100K might not be all that unreasonable.

syswei · April 2005

Compared to the 12 cylinder competition, $100K might not be all that unreasonable.

Absolutely true, but at 100k I think the potential market size is pretty thin, no matter how attactive the vehicle. If I were Lexus I'd want to push hard with hybrid while the competition is struggling to catch up technologically...meaning make hybrid fairly accessible/affordable in each model range. So if a base 2007 LS were at 60k (just guessing), I'd make the cheapest hybrid no more than 80k (3-4k for the hybrid feature and the rest in "required options").

ljflx · April 2005

My understanding is there will be two LS hybrids and three engine choices. The 6.0 liter superLS with whatever HP they go with - 602 is what I was told, again today - and then a hybrid upgrade from the LS460 that will have a HP somewhere in the 400's. Pricing will be mid 60's for the gas (which may only be a SWB car with 350HP and basically the replacement of today's car but w/o an expensive ultra or the cheap premium option), mid 70's-low80's for the hybrid step-up (loaded car with limited options, A LWB will basically be low 80's with every option, a SWB will be today's ultra + hybrid, plus a few add-ons of choice) and then the super LS which will only be a LWB car. Prices may be adjusted based on further developments with the US dollar.How they deal with tuning for any of these cars is totally undecided.

My e-mail was loaded today with RX hybrid messages from either Lexus or my dealer. So I called them up and said I don't give a damm about the RX, but tell me what is going on with the LS. That's what I got which remains very consistent with what I was told about 5 weeks ago.

jchan2 · April 2005

not a bad idea. I don't think they should have 3 or 4 engine choices though. They should have 2 choices: Hybrid or Non-Hybrid versions.

dorothyk · April 2005

"Pricing will be mid 60's for the gas (which may only be a SWB car....". So we are talking almost a $10,000 price increase over the base 2005 LS 430. Doesn't this seem extreme? What was the price increase from the LS 400 to the LS 430? Or the new GS430. I think Lexus needs to be careful not to price themselves out of the market. The LS is a fine car but all the information I have read on the 2007 SWB does not justify that price increase.

ljflx · April 2005

There's barely a price increase. They are simply taking the most popular options and making them standard, pretty much an equivalent car to todays modern lux and custom lux models.. The mid 60's also assumes a weak dollar. Most LS cars sell today in the 63-65k MSRP range for the mod lux - custom lux optioned cars. The amount of premium $58K cars lacking a nav and ML are few and far between and will drop from the wayside in the future or maybe they will still allow it as a special order car. The current $55K MSRP is a marketing joke as it is a car w/o a sunroof or memory seating. If they made 10 such cars in the last 10 years I'd like to see them. I don't think Lexus is pricing themselves out of any market. Where exactly are you going to go to get a lux car like it? Infiniti, Acura, Cadillac ? - good luck! The LS will still be the lowest priced car of the truly upper class lux crowd. Perhaps they will still allow a $60K premium special order car but that car will lack good resale or good lease rates vs. the other LS choices.

This is very similar to 2001. In the LS400 days nav and Nakamichi were not common and the premium cars were the norm and big sellers. The LS 430 changed all that and made the Nav/ML become the big seller and the premium car became the cheap fringe LS car. Though fewer were made plenty were available because not many wanted it. I walked in to my dealer from time to time and the premium LS was the only car around a few times - because demand for it was lacking. The true mistake Lexus initially made in 2001 was underestimating the demand for the $71K ultra. That car was impossible to get because it was in high demand.

callmedrfill · April 2005

The long wheelbase will sell LONG!

The price, $60k for standard LS, $65k for LWB, will be justified just in the better styling (it can't be any more understated, unless they stop making emblems!)

The engine will be more powerful, which will help sales.

The car will have new exciting features, like a guy in the trunk who makes a New York/2nd Avenue-style Pastrami Sub!

The Euro/Sport suspension will be tighter. The interior is bigger.

Selling almost 3 LS for every S or 7, there is room to move up, but anything over $70k will reduce volume noticably. The can sell 20000 at $70k. They are over 30000 now, and the car is 4 years old.

They won't go that far up at the base, with the GS430 stickering at $51k.

Anything more than $10k above that would surprise me.

The LWB better be 65% of the mix.

They can sell 5000 hybrids EASY at $90k! :P

DrFill

dorothyk · April 2005

You might be right but we can only speculate at this point on the pricing. If we use the only real data point available which is the new 2006 GS 430, Lexus increased the base MSRP by $3150.

callmedrfill · April 2005

Add another $4k to the price and you're at $60k

The LWB will add another $5k.

Considering the hard times the S and 7 have fallen on, it might be a good time to attack!

With sexier style, around 350HP, and more model diversity, plus an improved market presence, and interest in expanding the brand upmarket, a $5-7k price increase maybe justified.

DrFill

jchan2 · April 2005

Don't forget the current LS430 is probably the only Ultra Luxury car out there that's halfway reliable...

chris65amg · April 2005

Can't forget that

syswei · May 2005

I hope Lexus chooses to work with this new technology:

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/0410_bose/

Obviously not for 2007, but further down the road. It sounds very promising to me.

The article was posted on another Edmunds board greenbelt, "High End Luxury Marques" #9300, 8 May 2005 8:35 am

chris65amg · May 2005

Oh I wish!

syswei · May 2005

"Lexus bosses are not resting on their laurels, as they also plan to produce a mighty 500bhp version of the LS, powered by a 5.0-litre V8 hybrid unit. This LS600h is said to offer super-saloon space with the economy of a V6."
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/55833/lexus_muscles_in.html

chris65amg · May 2005

That's quite a claim. V-6 economy.... however, I really wonder how the people at Lexus can put a V-8 with the hybrid motor. Wouldn't that create tons of torque? I'm thinking around 350 for the regular V-8 and about 400 extra from the electric motor at start.... that's quite a bit, even considering that the peak torque from the electric motor is when it's just starting up. I am forcibly reminded of a Bentley Arnage T (450 bhp 645 ftlbs)

And that's a god thing. Kudos Lexus!

syswei · May 2005

It's not an unreasonable claim. The RX400h has a V6, but gets better mpg than the RX330, with its V6.

Kirstie_H · May 2005

If you want to start a new discussion about the LS600h, please do so!

cammer2 · May 2005

Kevin & Ken,

I realize that most of your comments relate to the upcoming LS. But since you seem to have an inside track, wondered if you had heard anything definitive about the 2006/7 Camry - particularly as it relates to the hybridization process. (Yes, i know this is the wrong board, but didn't think you frequented the Camry message boards)

Any idea if they will hybridize the I4 or V6 or both??

Anyway, thanks for any info you may have heard - and if you don't have any info, we all still appreciate all your feedback on the upcoming LS. Thanks again.

nexuslexus · May 2005

Anyone know what happend to our lexus informants? Or when they will be back? I am anxious for more information on the Lexus LS.

nexuslexus · May 2005

Cammer, today in the newspaper I read that Toyota WILL "hybridize" the camry (I am assuming v6) for 2006. I didn't read the entire article, but it was in the Detroit Free Press so I'm sure you can find it online somewhere.

ljflx · May 2005

That was reported everywhere - 48,000 units to be built in Kentucky for the 2006 model year. In the past I've read a ramp-up to 100K units in 2007.

Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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