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And what's up with the last paragragh? That was horrible! What's that about? :sick:
They basically reduced the car to this feature! That's as poor a synopsis as I've read in recent memory. Doesn't offer any real opinion. Doesn't even say a comparison test is warranted!
It makes Team Europe's posts sound rational and factual! :mad:
If all they'll do is print off of the press release, and then marginalize the car down to the newest feature, I need to get off these forums and help them write something worth reading, PRONTO! :sick:
Very disappointing!
DrFill
Maybe, but he's a Brit - and Japanese luxury cars don't do especially well there. He'd like a Jag better, count on it. From a "soul" perspective he could be right. Getting back home under your own power has some value too though.
202.8" for the LS460L. 18.0 cu ft trunk...meaning (if the GS is any guide) the LS600hL might be around 13 cu ft.
LS has improved: 53/47 for LS 430 to 52/48 LS 460
S550 has deteriorated: 50/50 for S500 to 51/49 for S550.
I have a lingering gut feeling that Lexus LS will be much better than S550 in every measure in unbiased hands and eyes.
But due to extensive brainwashing S550 will be declared winner by many so called veterans and experts.
Lbs/hp for LS 460L: 4332/380 = 11.4
S550 : 4465/382 = 11.69
looking at gear ratios it looks like it is more well sorted than the big benz.
If anyone wants me to post the full official Lexus press release from the 15th, let me know.
They are really little more than "previews" and it would be a demonstration of integrity to call it what it really is.
Its like sending the press to a taste of lexus event and then expecting them to give a detailed review of the car... not easy.
Reacting in an over-defensive manner reflects badly. Afterall, this new LS has strong legs to stand on, and in the end, no matter what the negatives might be, the '07 LS will still be the best LS ever made.
The '07 LS will prove to be a terrific car and a great value, regardless of some of its inevitable weaknesses, which all cars have. IMO, it is mature to admit those weaknesses.
As oac said, there is no perfect car . . . criticism is to be expected . . . and this is just the beginning. You ain't seen nothin yet!
TagMan
Criticism is good and healthy and to be expected. Those that over-react and get all excited and nasty everytime a negative word is said about the new LS are not being realistic.
Expect the bad with the good, and deal with it.
All views are valid, including yours (which BTW, I agree with many of your posts) . . . whether positive or negative.
The point is to be able to handle ALL the views!
Is that clearer?
From a personal standpoint, I intend to be as FACTUAL as possible, and not be caught up in a lot of rhetoric.
TagMan
You and I are on the same page.
well . . . except one little thing . . . go A's!
TagMan
:confuse: . . . uh oh, must be the brainwashing.
I was wondering how the Mercedes S Class got to be the number one high end luxury vehicle.
It's the brainwashing. Never thought of that.
:confuse: Huh???
So far this year, the new S-Class is leaving everyone in the dust.
The Lexus LS460 no longer blends into the background, but will luxury car drivers notice?"
This is the key question asked by a reviewer from our Northern neighbor.
Thus far the reviews of the 2007 Lexus LS430 have not been encouraging.
These previews will eventually give way to real reviews, and ultimately the car itself gets here, and the general BUYING public gets their hands on them. And the general public gets to be the final arbiter of how this car will be perceived...
I predict the new LS460 series will be the MOST successful LS ever produced. It has to be.... Its demographics demands what this car delivers... top-notch luxury, features, build quality, refinement, reliability and second-to-none customer service... Hence, no amount of negative press will stop this car from achieving its crown as the #1 selling full-size luxury sedan in America by 2007.
At the end of the day, success in sales and public are what counts, not this individual subjective previews, reviews or debates and arguments on auto sites like this with its own biases.
Does anyone really let a movie reviewers opinion determine whether or not they see a movie. The proof is always in the cash register. At the end of the day it's the sole arbiter and every critic or reviewers opinion (most of which is subjective to themselves) is rendered obsolete and useless.
Darn. I was gonna say that. Absolutely true.
The '07 LS is a shoe-in. Slam dunk if there ever was one. There's gonna be some criticisms of the brakes and handling, probably, but nothing to worry about. The self-parking feature will get a LOT of attention . . . too much probably. But in the end, it won't matter much, as you say . . . the "ch' ching" is what will count.
I'm gone for about 10 days . . . squeeze a little more vacation out of the summer (need to get the brainwashing fixed )
Hope some great reviews come out while I'm gone, and hopefully the bull is still on a rampage.
Take care,
TagMan
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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EDIT: You should have received it about 12:45PM Central.
But biased reviews, debates, brainwashing can psychologically influence a person's purchase decision. Media and magazine outlets are puppets in europe's hands. They influence the public by mind-control and programming.
Already the attack has begun. Poor brakes, light steering, touchy-grabby, too-quiet and so and so.
Not pretty like Audi A8 It seems like A8 with its huge nose like a trash can is prettier than LS!
Not powerful like S550: Merely 2 hp less (382-380) caused so much anger that it made them to write, "not as powerful as S550"
Not as good handling: Without honestly comparing head-to-head edmunds immediately jumped to declare LS as the looser!
When mercedes makes a reliable car it is hailed as a "masterpiece of engineering". When lexus introduces LS it is "merely reliable".
When mercedes makes a quiet car its hailed as a "masterpiece of engineering" but when LS does it even better, its called
"too-quiet".
So if you do well you are criticized and if you do badly then you are bashed. If this is not hate attack what is?
Despite a bad movie review risk can be taken.
But a bad auto-review can brainwash you and influence your purchase decision. The stakes and the risk is much higher!
Not pretty like Audi A8 It seems like A8 with its huge nose like a trash can is prettier than LS!
Not powerful like S550: Merely 2 hp less (382-380) caused so much anger that it made them to write, "not as powerful as S550"
Not as good handling: Without honestly comparing head-to-head edmunds immediately jumped to declare LS as the looser!
When mercedes makes a reliable car it is hailed as a "masterpiece of engineering". When lexus introduces LS it is "merely reliable".
All so true ! Its scary what is going on... Here is what I think. The "automotive press" doesn't want to be caught napping as they were in 1989 whent the first LS came out. This time they were determined to stick it to the new LS. What's not to *hate* about this new car ? Everything... It is a masterfully engineered product with many firsts... But the subtle and not-so subtle attacks have begun, as you so eloquently highlighted. I think that these are coordinated attacks meant to derail the car from its lofty perch.
Recall how the new S550 was previewed and reviewed in very glowing terms... The new LS is a far better product (need I say that) and yet its the negatives (perceived or real) that's been the focus. It can park itself is all Edmund's had to say in positive tone. What the heck is that ? You have an 8-speed tranny mated to 380HP from a tiny 4.6L (almost a full liter less than its major competitor), it will also get to 60 in a hurry (at 5.4s comparable to its major competitor) and what do the previews state: it lacks low-end grunt... or lacks a V8 growl... How many cars in this class growls ???? Do buyers of high-end luxury SEDANS want their cars to growl ??? Isn't that what you'd want in a sporty, performance-tuned sports car, and not a full-size luxury sedan ? Sheesh ...
In the final analysis, the LS will succeed bcos the clientele believes in the car's true mission and purpose. Did Lexus/Toyota not win 11 of 19 automotive awards from JDP recently ? That's the stuff that wins you buyers, not the crap these auto rags try to sell.
BTW, one of my friend has an E320, maybe year 2000. It has had multiple failures. None of them was big but it was so inconvenient that he swears it is his first and last MB.
Efficient V8 is now lacking in grunts and growls
Silence is now bad. When S550 had it, it was good.
That day is not far when reliability will be considered a terrible thing just because Lexus has it.
Ah, yes, our chilly friends to the north had only one complaint about the new LS - they said it's not as good as the German cars in the twisties. Otherwise, they couldn't say enough good about it.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Anything else is way too subjective, and can become weighted down with preconceived notions and ignorance.
DrFill
link title
It's not a war, it's just a defensive stance. There are a lot of people in this world that never want things to change. They just don't like it when the applecart is pushed over. These reviews are so predictable. You're going to continue to see reviews from Europe and England that are defensive and look to attack anything subjective. The moment you see that you throw the review in the toilet. In those cases the reviewer is giving you his pre-conceived opinion not an honest review. On top of that these reviewers - in most if not all cases - are looking for a sports car and want sport first and luxury second - if at all. The buyers want luxury first and adequate handling. If they wanted a sports car they'd be buying it instead. They are buying a lux car not a sports sedan. The reviewers understand that but they simply take it out of the equation when they write their review or drive the car. On top of all that few, IF ANY, of these guys can afford any of these cars. Don't know about you - but I don't take the advice, nor value the opinion very much of a person that can't afford what I am intending to buy - and that goes for houses, cars, boats. electronics, jewelry or anything else that is a big ticket item. I don't mean that to sound high and mighty. I mean it from an experience point of view. Behavioral patterns and tastes are much more similar along demographic profiles of people.
It amazes me how some of these reviews focus on the "race track" worthiness of the LS. They cannot put it through their thick skulls (I'm sure it's deliberate) that as you state, this is first and foremost a luxury vehicle with the most incredible technology to date. It is not suppose to feel and drive like a Corvette.
Having said all this, it will be interesting to see what some of the major American car magazines have to say about the LS460L in the next few weeks.
This reminds me of the baseball announcer who gets accused of rooting for one team over another, by Both team"s fans! It's all how you take it. Seems to me they really like the car. I also think it's fine that MB and BMW go a different direction in what they emphasize since it gives us more choice in the type of ride we prefer. By the way, I saw the LS at the NY Auto show and I thought they did a great job with the design although it is a bit similar to the 7 series. I also saw the NY S550 at a dealer and it is quite a striking car as well. It seems like it's a good time to have 80-100 K burning a hole in your pocket for a lux car.
So when do we start seeing the US reviews for the LS460 and when are they in showrooms?
Seriously though, in every car mag there is like 3 reviews of some new mercedes variant (AMG this, that). While we comparitively rarely hear about Lexus models. I wish there were more articles getting into the fine details of cars like the LS460 (especially the technology)
They claimed that it would be as big a breakthrough as the original. I'm from the school where it's better to under promise and over deliver.
http://bangkokpost.net/Motoring/18Aug2006_motor002.php
A few quotes...
"But the LS is arguably the best place to be in its class. It may sound a little too ambitious to liken the LS to the multi-million baht Maybach. But the truth is the LS seems to be the only model around that runs close to offering comfort levels of that Teutonic badge..."
.....
"Which brings us to the dynamic side of the LS. As mentioned earlier in the report, the other snag Lexus hopes to iron out is performance.
"The new LS comes with a high-output 4.6-litre V8 to replace the 4.3 unit in the LS430 predecessor.....
Push the starter button and you can now hear the engine at idle, particularly when standing outside the car. In the old LS, it was so quiet that you might have thought that the engine wasn't cranked yet.
The 380hp V8 of the LS460 is also more audible on the move. In fact, it's nice to hear some bit of that V8, particularly when you drag the rev counter near the redline. To some extent, it sounds classically sporty like in BMW's V8.
Is that to say that refinement has been lost? No, the engine sounds solid at every engine speed. Has the quietness disappeared? Yes, and we don't mind that at all and, more importantly, it never sounds disturbing but purposeful for driving spirit.
You don't need to ask about the LS460's performance: there's plenty of punch even at less than half-throttle. I slammed the gas after crossing the border from Austria to Germany, and noted how aggressively power was amassed all the way up to its 250kph limit top end.
The LS460 is a fine-performer, particularly when you consider that it needs high-displacement motors of the Merc S500 and Bee-em 750i to match the LS460's performance credentials on paper.
As you can see on the dynamic highlights diagram, new technologies have enabled the LS460 to lay such claims."
Price - starting price of $59K or $60K is more like it but forget about seeing any cars at that pricepoint. It'll ship mostly with $65-67K MSRP in SWB with a certain package of options included in virtually every car - IMO.