Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

drfill · August 2006

Usually you are correct, but I don't know if you can use that arguement that mags don't want to offend Toyota.

C&D is the best American mag because they avoid milquetoast reviews that say nothing, and define nothing, like Automobile magazine does. You may disagree with their findings, or criterion, but they aren't shy about taking sides and choosing a preferred ride.

GM vehicles are consistently bottom-feeders in their comparisons. Does GM not advertise with them?

In "Short Drives", you will commonly see vehicles like Impala, Cobalt, Grand Prix receive back-handed compliments and being cited for underachievement, but yet, life goes on, as scheduled.

Considering the Next LS is bigger, stronger, faster, more luxurious, and sexier than ever, and mags like C&D already admitted the LS430 was Best in Class, I wouldn't expect much negativity to surface.

Lexus has put a lot of pressure on itself. But something tells me they wouldn't have it any other way.

DrFill

ljflx · August 2006

I understand your point - I just doubt any US mag will put up negativeness on a car that has been this touted by Toyota. If we are talking the Corolla I'd be in 100% agreement with you. But the LS and LS600HL - given the press announcements - I'd say there is little chance. It's all irrelevant anyway - this car is going to be phenomenal. But what I'm hearing about the hybrid is off the charts. I hope that car is really a March/April delivery and man do I hope there are enough to go around.

idele · August 2006

This article appeared in May on CNN.com . It is apropos to the discussion in this subforum.
http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/01/news/companies/pluggedin_fortune/index.htm

cyclone4 · August 2006

Thank you idele! This is indeed very much apropos. Man, I wish it could be April of 2007 already. I just cannot wait for the LS600hL.

idele · August 2006

My pleasure. Actually I posted this article on another forum when it first appeared. The statement
"Journalists love to seize a single fact or incident and inflate it out of proportion"
is so universally true.

ljflx · August 2006

Still another reason not to take any of these reviews or articles seriously. Most of the time they are written by "homers" who want certain brands to win or be discussed as near winners. That article was a business side article. It's a much worse situation in auto rag reviews, particularly outside this country. Bottom line - the more the author/reviewer disses or minimizes the excellent points about the company or vehicle, the more upset he or she is about both.

drfill · August 2006

A post in another popular high-end forum, which will remain nameless, has resorted to calling the LS's Self-Parking feature "useless", since the driver must use the brakes for it to work.

I guess this would create a very phony perception that the car in question is more "luxurious" by having such "useless gimmicks".

Having lived in the Big Apple for 25 years, I know a few hundred thousand people who might see this feature as "essential"!

DrFill

nvbanker · August 2006

GM advertises plenty with C & D, and that doesn't matter anyway. Most GM offerings are outstandingly adequate, and C & D usually says so.

idele · August 2006

Quoted from http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/18/best-new-cars_cx_dl_0821forecast.html?partner=a- lerts

But the slide show contains more than just the stuff of fantasy. Toyota Motor's (nyse: TM - news - people ) overhauled Lexus LS flagship sedan is a huge weapon in Lexus' arsenal, as it equips the brand to be something greater than it has ever been.

The LS was the first Lexus, and since its introduction in 1989, it has set the tone for the luxury brand. LS cars run like sewing machines; they are reliable and smooth, but they don't exactly get your blood going--until now.

With a zero-to-60 time of just over five seconds, the new LS is a sexy, sporty, even sinister sedan--something we never thought we'd say about the sophisticated-but-polite Lexus all-star. Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Maserati and Cadillac should all be terrified of the new LS.

drfill · August 2006

But it's preety obvious they didn't have an extended drive with the car, and are extrapolating information from the press release.

September will see many actual press vehicles sent to all major outlets, and by it's on-sale date, it will have probably been compared 2-3 times.

DrFill

jl618 · August 2006

Does anyone know what size the LS460 Nav screen is?

idele · August 2006

Two items
1. Autobild tested the LS460 against the MB S500. Here is the conclusion:
Dieser neue Lexus ist eine echte Alternative zu den deutschen Luxus-Linern, die höchstens noch in einer Disziplin punkten könnten: der Fahrdynamik. ( this new Lexus is a true alternative to the German
luxury lines, only at most slightly deficient in handling.
2. Forbes reports that standing orders for the new LS in Japan are very large. It will be on sale in Japan next month. As I have posted previously, beating MB and BMW in Japan is crucial.

ljflx · August 2006

"Forbes reports that standing orders for the new LS in Japan are very large"

From what I can tell standing orders in the US are very large as well and there's still no official pricing.

bobob20032000 · August 2006

LS 460 is to start out at 70K (Estimates on the net/magazines) Why such a big jump from $56,525. The current MB S-Class starts at $85,400. I wished the price of the new LS 460 will be near $59K instead to make it more competitive.

At $70K nobody will buy it and it may fail like other Toyota models.

Gas estimates are 20/27 mpg for 4.6 V8, Lexus should redesign their engines to not be gas guzzlers.

andy82471 · August 2006

Were you expecting 40 mpg from a 380 HP non hybrid V8. LOL :surprise:

ljflx · August 2006

It won't be $70K as a start, that's with plenty of loaded options. But how do you possibly read that $70K vs $85K is not a great competitive price anyway. As for mileage it's a potent V8 so you have to exchange power for mileage. 27mpg highway is fine by my standards.

oac · August 2006

This car is simply understated elegance par excellence !!!

Here are some pics, courtesy of autospies...

oac · August 2006

http://www.nctd.com/review-intro.cfm?Vehicle=2007_Lexus_LS%20460&ReviewID=1944

A good read for its thoroughness...

Under driving impressions, here is a comment worth noting:

"If you order the optional air suspension or the entire Touring package of suspension, tires, wheels, brakes and brake pads, you get variable gear-ratio power steering instead, giving the system the latitude between 2.5 and 3.6 rotations of the steering wheel. Without the Touring package, the ride and handling are exemplary, but with it, there is a whole new level of sportiness about the LS 460, so we recommend it highly."

And when you setup a comparison with MB and BMW, you get these pics... very interesting viewpoint on these cars...

http://www.nctd.com/review-compare.cfm?VehicleOne=1944&VehicleTwo=1787&VehicleTh- ree=1905

idele · August 2006

Thanks for posting the website of the review. I drive a GS450h and it is a "drive by wire" car. As I've mentioned before it's analogouus to piloting a jet fighter (which can't be done without electronics). The LS evidently continues the "drive by wire" technology. Great!

nexuslexus · August 2006

Motor trend's current issue has a review of the LS460- its pretty positive, calls the driving better, tells the Germans to watch out.

Says that the LS can now have stability control completely disabled.

Says prices to start between 60-72 thou and 90's for LS600hl.

nexuslexus · August 2006

Some more LS600hl pictures- sorry if they are old.

ljflx · August 2006

OAC - this is more like what I've been told about the car by someone who drove it, as opposed to those early garbage reviews by the European rags. This car must have bothered the hell out of those reviewers, hence the need for them to interject the subjective (translation - imaginary) word into their review. Now I'm told the LS600HL is off the charts and nothing under $110K can even touch it. I'll trust that guys opinion. BTW he didn't drive the touring package so his report on excellent handling on the gas LS compares almost exactly with the exemplary handling noted in your link. I wish the stock market was as easy to call as these reviewers opinions are.

stevekilburn · August 2006

If you cannot afford a 70K$ LS and if you are not financially secure you can buy a loaded GS for 59K$ or wait for a few years and buy a used LS 460.

I think if Lexus offers the new base LS 460 for anything less than 70K$ they will commit a huge blunder. Epic proportions really.

Unlike Cadillac and Acura, lexus aspires to be a global brand and they must price all their products head-to-head with benz and bmw.

The reason why IS is doing so well, and hopefully LS will do well also, is because they are great cars and great cars do not need cut-rate pricing.

On the other hand GS has a very lethargic styling and handling and bad packaging so it has poor sales. Lexus should quickly refresh GS and change those head lights.

xerok00l · August 2006

My favorite views of the car.

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Kirstie_H · August 2006

Thanks - I bought those shoes especially for that show

ljflx · August 2006

What's the sticker price of that option - with or without the shoes?

oac · August 2006

What's the sticker price of that option - with or without the shoes?

Very funny indeed, Len.... Is that our host Kirstie for real ? WOW !!! Edmunds hire stunning hosts

Can I apply even though I don't look half as good, not female, and cannot fit into those clothes and shoes

:):)

Kirstie_H · August 2006

Priceless

nexuslexus · August 2006

What I've always found amusing is that they show off the champagne flutes and holders- at least in the state of Michigan, it is a crime to have an open bottle of alcohol in the passenger compartment- so those glasses may be of no use.

houdini1 · August 2006

Glasses? What glasses?

Lexus will sell a million of em!!

nvbanker · August 2006

"Gas estimates are 20/27 mpg for 4.6 V8, Lexus should redesign their engines to not be gas guzzlers."

You're kidding, right? My 05 gets me 30.3 on the highway at 85mph, and 19+ a little in only city driving. For a V-8, that's the best I've ever seen, or had. Not a guzzler to me, quite the economy car compared to my other ones. Anyway, that's how I feel. :confuse:

oac · August 2006

At $70K nobody will buy it and it may fail like other Toyota models.

Which Toyota models were these ?

Gas estimates are 20/27 mpg for 4.6 V8, Lexus should redesign their engines to not be gas guzzlers.

Wanna see a gas guzzler ? Permit me to introduce to you my 235HP LX470. It only gets 11.6 mpg. At 20/27 on a 380HP V8 motor, I'd kill for that kinda gas efficiency. You gotta be kidding if you think this 20/27 is not efficient. Wanna check out what the competition is doing ? Let's just say, not as good as this Lexus V8. And when the 430+HP 600hL gets here doing the mid-20s mpg, at a SULEV II clean burning, then what ?

atlas7 · August 2006

Question, the picture of the Black LS has a silver grille. The other pics I have seen of the LS460 have a black grille, similar to the GS models...IS the Silver Grille only available on certain models of the 460, the L, or the 600? Anyone know?

ljflx · August 2006

Agreed.

stevekilburn · August 2006

Kristie

You are one hot beauty in that Lexus. Man, I kept looking at those supermodel legs. Saved the picture, zoomed it and kept looking again.

Oac, I need a job at edmunds too. I thought it was a geekyard from planet pluto. Its shocking.

Seriously, I am in a state of va-va voom. Are there any other supermodels working at edmunds??

LS 460 is definitely my next car! Tonight all my doubts have been cleared. This is my next car no matter what.

oac · August 2006

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Reviews/Luxury_Cars/2007_Lexus_LS460.S18- - - 3.A10792.html

On ride and handling:

"Okay, now for the real stuff. How does the LS460 drive?

Acceleration is impressive. The car has the hauling power to match the competition. The new eight-speed is incredibly smooth and under most driving conditions, shifts are imperceptible. Even on steep grades, there's no observable gear hunting.

While we're not fans of electric steering, the system on the LS is about as good as that form gets. There's good road feel and the system is both responsive and precise.
Both standard and air suspensions do a good job of isolating you from road harshness, while still maintaining road feel. We found ourselves pushing into corners far more aggressively than we would have with the old LS430 - and being rewarded for our effort.
....
The '07 LS460 is certain to raise interest levels, even among the most dedicated Euro-philes. And well it should. Lexus raised the bar with the original LS sedan's pricing. Now it is back with a car that challenges the competition at their own game."

This car sounds, reads, and looks incredible.... Now Lexus hurry up and send them down here so that we, the consumers, can finally have a go at this car... I cannot wait...

Oh WAIT !!! The article confirms what Len has been saying for sometime... a new super Lexus above the LS series coming as well.... And AWD by 2007 on the LS460

ljflx · August 2006

OAC - and that's just the base suspension.

stevekilburn · August 2006

"...Toyota 's luxury division intends to beat the Europeans at their own game, with a sedan that is second to none in terms of features and performance - and which doesn't have to rely on bargain pricing to compete..."

The same article says what I have been saying for months. Price the new LS 460 head-to-head with BMW 7 and Audi A8.
lexus will do the greatest damage to its brand through

BARGAIN OR CUT-RATE PRICING.

oac · August 2006

The same article says what I have been saying for months. Price the new LS 460 head-to-head with BMW 7 and Audi A8.
lexus will do the greatest damage to its brand through

Lexus has been planning its own marketing strategy as well, and strange but true, they seem aligned with yours Steve... Congrats...

From autospies... Lexus' new marketing strategy in plain ol' English for the world to see...

garyh1 · August 2006

Hi guys--

I've been quiet for a while, but I've been following this board. I am now 800+ messages behind on the HELM board, so I don't know what's going on there, but it sounds like many of you have stopped following that as well. If true, it's a bit sad to hear. There's lots of history there.

Anyway, it seems that Lexus is still not saying exactly what the starting price of the LS line is going to be. All this slide presentation tells me is that they are extending the upper end of the range, but we all knew this already. The question to me is what is a nicely but realistically equipped SWB LS (say like a current Modern Luxury with NAV, ML, Smartkey) going to start at? When I bought an '05, it was a $62.7K list car (which I bought for $56K OTD). What is that same well-equipped but "base" car going to go for in an '07? My guess is it will still list for under $70K - and that's consistent with the slide show $70K "breakpoint". And discount off of list will be less than it used to be - at least for a while after first release. But Lexus will still be selling a lot of LSes with a sticker below $70K, in fact the majority of its sales (the slide says they are looking for 65% SWB, and most of those will be under $70K list). They will just have much more to offer above $70K than ever before. That's where their "exclusivity" factor will come into play.

So my bottom line is that Steve's concept is still not going to be correct; Lexus will not give up its price advantage over Audi and BMW at the low end, but will have product for people that want to spend more than they ever could before on a Lexus. Anyone want to bet against Lexus' ability to sell from the mid-60s all the way up to the 90s (or beyond with their future super car) - at least in the US?

merc1 · August 2006

Well Autospies finally lives up to their name. Interesting marketing info. I wonder how Lexus feels about this being splashed across the net. Anyway, the graphic really lays out what Lexus is all about. The 1M number for New Values in "Mainstream Luxury" is of particular interest. I guess that is where they see the market going volume wise, because they can hardly sell a million cars themselves.

M

manegi · August 2006

Yesterday's Nikkei reports that Lexus has 8,000 advance orders in hand for LS460.
I expect at least a six month lead time before delivery (in Tokyo), at least for 2007.

My dealer is trying to push GS450H as an alternative, but after reading the initial reviews of the 8-speed beast, GS450H seems to be like a limp rag....

nexuslexus · August 2006

So I guess this confirms that the price for the 600 will not be in the 100's.. more likely in the 80's.. They can't sell 1500 100,000 dollar cars.

nexuslexus · August 2006

Where does the article confirm that there will be AWD on the LS460?

drfill · August 2006

Lexus will NOT sell 100k units above $70k WITHOUT the LS460, so it's one of those read between the lines type of presentations.

A car this good doesn't need a $25k price break compared to a S550, obviously it's primary competition.

Anyone who is buying a 750 or A8 over a $70-75k LS460L is buying an INFERIOR vehicle. The 7 has best-in-class handling, but the iDrive cancels that advantage out, as Lexus has said, Lexus is a huge winner since BMW forced that on the people.

AND the 7 has gone from the best-looking car (1995 generation) to worst-looking car in swoop! The LS has passed it by in tech, power, looks, and lux!

The 7 is a Non-Factor! :P

The only vehicle that can touch the LS460 is the S, and the S will have it's hands full there.

$70k is the right price to start because Lexus would have NO COMPETITION there!

It would be like A-1 Stake Sauce dropping it's price to $3.

Why bother? Who are they afraid of?

This is one of lifes easier questions.

Come on, people! :mad:

DrFill

atlas7 · August 2006

The 450H is a great car, but as I understand it, the dealers are only getting 1-2 450H's per month. Anyhow the LS and GS are apples and oranges.

cyclone4 · August 2006

Hello everyone! Yes we have been in Seattle since Tuesday visiting our son and his wife. As an added bonus, we are going to see my beloved Red Sox (all you Yankee fans shut up ;-)) play the Mariners tonight.

I see that the latest reviews and information sound very exciting for the LS 460 and the LS 600hL. nexuslexus, I'm pretty sure I read on the article that the LS460 will indeed have the LWD option available early in 2007. I am so excited about the LS (I'm on the list for the LS600hL), I can't see straight ;-).

oac · August 2006

Welcome back, Gary... You have been sorely missed around here.

As to the LS pricing, my dealer gave me a song-n-dance story of a $72K list on a SWB, but he could not tell me what options are on such a car, so I dismissed his price as pure speculation. We have also heard rumors to the mid-60 starting price. My forecast is a $67K list for an LS460 SWB with Premium Package (upgraded 19-spkr ML/Nav), which will only be a $5K jump from an '06. That would be one heck of a deal considering what you get for that $5K hike.

For you, Gary, you should opt for the LWB which gives you the "Sport Package", otherwise called the "Grand Touring Package" - bigger brakes & pads, 19" wheels, and upgraded air suspension made stiffer. It would set you back probably around $75K (list) for those goodies, IMO, which will be additional to all the goodies you already had on the SWB. And pls take note: you can turn OFF the electronic stability nanny... goodie... Imagine Lexus putting this in their big sedan and NOT in the actual "sport sedans" the IS and GS ? Strange !!!!

BTW, Motor Trends' LS460 Preview/First Drive had LOTS of great things to say about the handling, performance and ride of this car. With the ability to turn OFF the nanny and equipped with the optional sport-tuned suspension, they really put the car through its paces, and the results were excellent for this big sedan. The 600hL is a car they feel will give the Germans fits priced in the $90s.... They estimate the 460 series b/w 60- 72K 'base' pricing. Guess we'll see soon enough.

I want the "base" LS460 (with Premium Package), and I am willing to pay the mid-60s to get it. I hope Lexus builds some in that price range.

oac · August 2006

There is comment about it in the Autoweek review:

But the hybrid 600h will have all-wheel drive, and snow country folks will be glad to hear awd is to become available in the LS 460 as well.

details link title

ctsang · August 2006

That slide shows Lexus sale will be more than MB and BMW combined! WOW!

Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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