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Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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Comments

  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    So then the Lexus Hybrid Drive does provide the added quiet. I assume then that because the cabin is so quiet, other systems (switches, etc.) sound noisier, and thus had to be made more quiet as a result.

    It makes me think of the window closers which on all new LS vehicles, slow down at the end of a movement to reduce noise.

    There was also this other article which suggested that the body panels are shaped in such a way to affect airflow, that the car can be compared to a 'giant noise-cancelling headset.' Not sure if this is hyperbole or not.

    I would love to ride in the LS 600h L and LS 460 and see if I can hear the difference. Of course, to be truly accurate, I'd have to be blindfolded. :D
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I would love to ride in the LS 600h L and LS 460 and see if I can hear the difference. Of course, to be truly accurate, I'd have to be blindfolded.

    I think it would be very obvious, IMO.

    My recent test drive of the LS430 revealed a little more noise than I had expected, given all the publicity about how quiet it is supposed to be. I'm not saying it wasn't pleasant, but it was not whisper quiet like I thought it would be.

    Now the LS600hL on the other hand, I will bet the ranch, WILL be whisper quiet, almost silent, and the difference will be astounding.

    Blindfold not necessary. ;)

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    "The Motor Trend shots look sweet but I wonder what the ride inside is like with that kind of driving!"

    On the flight back from Seattle to the Midwest this afternoon, I picked up a copy of Motor Trend at the Minneapolis Airport. I found the article on the LS quite complimentary on all aspects of the vehicle. This includes the driving dynamics as compared to the German cars. For example, it states, "By halfway up the mountain, the big sedan seems to shrink, and corner-entry speeds rise along with driver confidence. With excess confidence comes miscreant behavior that, if not encouraged, is at least condoned by this new LS."
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    I read elsewhere that the LS 430 is around 32 dB interior noise or less, I wonder what the LS 600h L will do. I agree that the silence will be astounding, but I already find the LS 430 silence pretty amazing too--far better than any car I've driven. It might come to it, that one day an 'exterior speaker' is necessary to hear what's going on outside--I do think that occasionally, hard-of-hearing luxury car owners cannot hear the honking horn, or yelling passerby of people around them because the soundproofing is so effective.

    I also read the Motor Trend article too--seems they beat Car & Driver and Road & Track to the punch here. I was pleasantly surprised by how complimentary the article was. It, like several other car reviews out there, concludes that the LS should give its competitors a run for the money. I was a bit surprised they let the drivers tear up the road around Eagle's Nest though; parts of that area, based on my travel experience, are pretty dangerous. But apparently they knew what they were doing--as we haven't heard of any wrecked test cars from the Salzburg event!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I read elsewhere that the LS 430 is around 32 dB interior noise or less, I wonder what the LS 600h L will do. I agree that the silence will be astounding, but I already find the LS 430 silence pretty amazing too--far better than any car I've driven.

    I don't quite see it that way, with regards to the current model, that is. The LS430 has some noises that I find a little bothersome at certain higher freeway speeds. Around town . . . no problem, but get up to serious speed and the irregularities in the freeway surface coupled with the wind noise at high speeds are noticeable enough.

    The LS600hL, as I mentioned is being touted to be quite possibly the quietest car ever produced. Something therefore that none of us has ever experienced before. This is a dramatic difference, IMO, than the current car.

    Different animals entirely.

    TagMan
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    I find it interesting that Lexus is only offering the LS 600h L for the American market, but the LS 600h will be offered in Japan and Europe. I suppose they assume that Americans want the bigger cars, and that more space-restricted Europe and Japan likes the SWB more.

    Although I wonder how the LS 600h will perform vs. the 600h L...?
  • lexus460llexus460l Member Posts: 51
    hello,
    im just here to ask for suggestions! I'm really interested in the new mercedes S600 but can anyone give me suggestions for which car i should get, the S600 or the LS 600hL? I currently own a 750 Li and I think that it is pretty noisy compared to my other Lexus i currently bought.So im very interested in Lexus because of the quietness in the cabin.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Those are some real cool pics of an LS burning its tires and doing a smoke-out... WOW !!! This is an LS ? Are you kidding me ??? Funny how some reviews claim this car's driving dynamics are still lacking... What were they smoking (pun intended) ? Isn't it interesting that NO Lexus can do what the LS460 did in that MT drive ! I'd guess that the standard suspension must be pretty darn good, while the optional air suspension takes it another notch way up there. 0-60 in 5.4s, the smallest turning radius in the class, features and technology out of this world, build, luxury and low NVH, complimenting excellent customer service. All at affordable prices... What's going to stop the new LS from dominating its class here in the US ?

    NOTHING.... It should easily take back the crown in 2007, and put even more distance to its nearest competitors by end of next year, in total sales. Add in the 600hL (April '07), AWD on MY2008 LS460 (Oct '07), and you'd see some serious sales for Lexus by year's end.

    The question that remains is this: will this be 1989 all over again ? Time shall tell.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    Well as Tagman has suggested, and the facts seem to support this, the LS 600hL will be in a class by itself in terms of quiet cabin. I suggest also that the LS 600hL will be a very special car, with somewhat more cachet than the thirsty S600. But the new S-class is quite nice.

    And it's a given IMO that the LS will retake its sales crown in the world's biggest luxury market, the US. IMO Lexus has got its formula down right--the US market is all but 'locked up' as a Lexus success (but never say never--keep at it!). The point of the New LS is to do more than 1989 in some ways--it's to expand Lexus globally. Of course, the ES is the trendsetter for Lexus is some countries such as South Korea, Taiwan, setting sales records in those nations...the LS is supposed to introduce Lexus to the rest of the world as a global luxury brand.

    The LS 600hL is like the cherry on top--but it's a lot more than that. We'll have to wait and see if it can deliver, but I predict this will be one hot car...one that celebrities will want, and it will be in short supply. Of course, the LS 460 will do the heavy lifting, but the 460L, 600h, and 600hL will add to the overal LS series cachet. It's nice to say "LS series."
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    As excelsior88 explained very well, the LS600hL will be the quietest vehicle, and offer a one-of-a-kind experience, as the vehicle will be what I would call "exclusive". But when it comes to other features, styling, and driving dynamics, you will have to test these cars for yourself to find your preferences.

    The S600 is a certainly a superb vehicle and I might suggest, as our HOST has indicated, that the HELM forum is the appropriate forum to discuss comparisons between these two (and other) vehicles in greater detail.

    One member of the HELM forum just purchased an S600, so you can get some good feedback.

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The 600hL is guaranteed to the the quietest on earth when running on batteries only.

    But when the ICE is on, it isn't clear to me that it will be any quieter than the 460. It does have a different ICE, 5 liter instead of 4.6. Who knows whether that part will be quieter or noisier in the 600? And from an acoustical engineering perspective, do we really know that the non-ICE parts of the 600 will differ from the 460?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    But when the ICE is on, it isn't clear to me that it will be any quieter than the 460. It does have a different ICE, 5 liter instead of 4.6. Who knows whether that part will be quieter or noisier in the 600? And from an acoustical engineering perspective, do we really know that the non-ICE parts of the 600 will differ from the 460?

    Terrific perspective and question. I've been wondering that myself. I'm going to bet that the engineers have gone the extra mile to add even more sound-isolation to the LS600hL, but that begs the questions . . . how? and why not in the 460?

    The answer might be to distinguish this vehicle as even more exclusive. But . . . at this point . . . ????????

    Interesting, indeed.

    TagMan
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    With respect to the noise level in the new LS460 when comparing to the LS430, I've read some where that Lexus engineers purposefully made sure that it has more of certain noises such as engine rev/exhaust to appease some euro tastes. If this were true and that the LS460 is still as quiet as the LS430, then I would say they did a good job.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I think several reviews have already commented that there is more engine noise from the 460 as compared to the 430, though the one that I remember best (the video one) said you have to go past 5000rpm to really hear it.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Yes . . . the engineers have essentially changed, rather than reduced the overall sound level, as they targeted specific sound characteristics of the 460 vs. the 430. Not just the engine "growl", but the ever-popular door-closure sound has also been tweaked.

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I recall hearing the engine of the LS460 in one of those videos and it sounded pretty nice, that is sportier, compared with the 430.

    That having been said, I don’t know what all the fuss is about, especially the talk about “tomb-like” in a derogatory manner. As far as a pure luxury car is concerned, I want quiet. Leave the noise to the real sport sedans and especially the sports cars. However, there should be a certain amount of sound to enable the driver to keep in touch with the engine.

    But in general with pure luxury cars, tomb-like quiet and womb-like comfort is better IMO.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    However, there should be a certain amount of sound to enable the driver to keep in touch with the engine.

    As syswei astutely realized earlier, the LS600hL may change all that. The only connection to the engine may be intermittent (depending upon when the ICE is running), and with its unparalleled level of quiet, I think that there will be less feedback from the powertrain in the LS600hL than ever before on ANY car.

    The driver of the LS600hL will need to feel the speed of the vehicle . . . which will likely be so incredibly smooth, it will be all too easy to get a speeding ticket.

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    As syswei astutely realized earlier, the LS600hL may change all that.

    I would say “may” is an understatement. Hybrids change our perceptions and expectations in many ways, not only with regard to luxury but also with performance. As intrigued as I am about them, I can honestly say that I don’t know how I am going to react to them as a buyer. I can see myself either loving them, hating them or anything in between. If one of these cars fit my buying plan and preferences I would have no problem getting one based on the adventure alone. Too bad it’s probably going to be really tough to get a test drive in the 600hl for a while.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    I was just wondering about this feature for the new LS and suddenly realized that it is a nice feature to have when the driver has limited upper body mobility/flexibility. Parallel/reverse parking requires a certain amount of body turning and head twisting.
    For the younger people, don't you ever have one of those days when you woke up in the morning and could not turn your body/head to the side? This condition maybe permanent for older people whom are the prime target audience for this vehicle.
    As I understand, the self-parking feature only requires the drives to run it from the center console and therefore no need to twist and turn the upper body.
    So I don't think this is gimmicky feature, but it is something that people can actually benefits from.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    What I am surprised at is the lack of interest in the driving dynamics of the new LS that MT recently showed. Rather we get bogged down with noise level.. Huh !!! Did anyone notice the OFF button for the trac/stability control (ASC) ? Anyone notice you can smoke the LS tires ? Any one take notice ? How about the flat-cornering, the tight tuck-in around corners ? Important to Europhiles that the new LS can do this ? I suspect that many of us really can't fathom how truly great this car is until we get our hands on it. But MT sure gives us a great look-see...
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I think the reviews are mixed on the driving dynamics issue.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Anyone notice you can smoke the LS tires ? Any one take notice ?

    Smoking tires is not the Europhiles definition of performance that you refer to. Besides, most cars can smoke tires if you know how. But, yes, the performance is, of course, important.

    BTW, wasn't it frequently you that underscored the greater importance of the LUXURY features of these cars, so why complain about the attention to the luxurious quiet ride? You would think you would be loving it.

    Don't you also have a history of posting the irrelevance of "handling and driving dynamics" that the Europhiles spoke of? Now you are focused on it because it is a Lexus that might show some handling prowess.

    If we want to focus on the luxury of "quiet", something the LS is good at, then I think we should be able to do so.

    Also, consider that as the performance characteristics become more revealed with the increase in reviews and road tests, the commentary will increasingly shift to "performance".

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    What I am surprised at is the lack of interest in the driving dynamics of the new LS that MT recently showed.

    Why are you surprised? You know that sport driving characteristics are not a priority with most Lexus buyers. You seem to be one of the few who notice. Don’t forget, a lot of Lexus buyers are willing to purchase sight unseen. This isn’t going to happen if any Euro buyers are to be conquered. They will have to drive it.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Ha, I should guess that my words will get thrown back at me.... The point I am making, of course, is that the ad nauseum discuss on noise, tomb, womb-like does nothing to advance our knowledge of other features of this car. How about the OFF/Kill button that has hitherto never been a Lexus thing ? Especially on their biggest sedan.... Does that constitute a fact that Lexus means business with improving its driving dynamics ? I'd expect some discuss of this rather than the 2-pages of noise level debate.

    Tell me something, TM, have you read the tidbits about the MT review of the new LS460 ? Do you find them credible ? I notice that others may wait for C&D or R&T before they'd accept that this new LS really has these attributes that the Europhiles moan about for years... Its about time we see and discuss OTHER facets of this car besides self-park, noise level, etc...
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    IMO, I do not really think any of us know enough yet, based on the reviews so far, about the driving dynamics of the new LS. That is going to be an important aspect, especially in the HELM forum, where the COMPARISONS are permitted.

    Yes, I am glad to see . . . actually VERY glad to see . . . some attention being paid to the driving dynamics of the LS. I just don't think any of us truly knows what they are yet. Do you really think the brakes are "grabby", for example?

    When I form my final opinion on the LS460 you and all the others will know what it is, and why. I promise.

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    You are absolutely correct. I consider myself to be in good shape since I play tennis 3-4 times a week. However, there is no question that I am not as limber/agile now as compared to 10-20 years ago. And I do have some trouble turning my head when I try to parallel park. It is not as easy as it was when I was a "young lad". Thus, I totally agree that this feature will be very useful especially for the older folks.
  • rennyboschrennybosch Member Posts: 329
    My 04 LS430 is wonderfully quiet when driving on smooth pavement with the air conditioning off. But turn the a/c on and you hear a continuous swishing sound. So if they want to make the 600 really quiet, they will have to change the a/c venting system. Further, as soon as I drive over some rough pavement, or over a freeway overpass, there are noises coming from the wheels that really make the car non-quiet. Is the 600 going to be able to eliminate rough pavement noises? I seriously doubt that is possible. My point is that quietness is not just an engine noise issue.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Its about time we see and discuss OTHER facets of this car besides self-park, noise level, etc...

    You’re right. However there seems to be a trend developing with the press knocking the self park, just as there was with iDrive. Deal with it. The good news is that it’s a stand-alone option so there is really no need to belabor the issue which is really a non-issue. Hopefully it will be easy to get a car with or without it, the way it should be. I hate packages and questionable features that come standard.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    From the looks of things, one has to wonder if diesels, which, BTW, are just in the very beginning of a big sales leap, aren't going to end up ultimately as the preferred alternative to the traditional ICE?

    Just look at these interesting statictics on the hybrid sales lately.

    What will be the "long-term" outlook for the LS600hL?

    link title

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I said months ago and I still believe that 10 years from now, most of us will be driving around in diesel hybrids.
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    Diesels have a significant hurdle to overcome in the US market. For one, pollution standards in California and other states require low particulate emissions, which many diesels don't meet. Further, the American public still associates diesels with dirty, smoke producing trucks, not with luxury cars.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    IMO, I do not really think any of us know enough yet, based on the reviews so far, about the driving dynamics of the new LS. That is going to be an important aspect, especially in the HELM forum, where the COMPARISONS are permitted.

    I am NOT asking for a comparison, I am asking for a discussion of the driving dynamics of the LS460 based on the reviews we have so far. The fact that the car comes with an OFF button for trac/stability, has sport mode suspension, sport-mode option with real upgraded brakes, pads, suspension and wheels... Already there has been several reviews of this, the latest being MT.

    How about the torque delivery of the engine at 4100rpm (peak) ? Any ideas what the torque curve would look like ?
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    Who cares if the self-park comes with or without the car? If you don't want to use it, you never have to. It is the 'beauty of stand-alone options' like you said. The convenience of that particular luxury option, like some other luxury options, like laser cruise controls, etc. is that if you don't want to you it, you never need to. It is indeed a nonissue. UNLIKE iDrive--that pretty much is the default way to input things, although there are workarounds. I also would suggest that the press has nowhere near universally maligned the feature like iDrive was.

    As far as I'm concerned, it would be very strange to go out of one's way to avoid a standard feature like self-park. If you hate it, just don't use it. At the very least, you can try it once and then forget about it, or use it as a parlor trick.

    Now as for the rest of the vehicle, I think it's good that there is a discussion of the LS' performance capabilities--IMO, any aspect of the vehicle is fair game. However, I would suggest that for the vast majority of flagship luxury buyers, most of this discussion is indeed academic as they will rarely call upon performance capabilities. But, it is still nice to know that the latent abilities are there! In my view the picture is not very clear as of yet, but really the only way to be really sure is to drive the car for yourself. I expect that the new LS will improve upon the old, and will achieve a level of respectable competence. Whether it has the ability to challenge the German makes, I'm uncertain, but hopeful that it will hold its own. As for the 'grabby' brakes, I heard the same thing in early articles about the LS 430 and I didn't experience that issue.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I've targeted 08 as the year to get to replace my 05. And I don't need AWD or LWB or a little h after my 460. I do, however, want all the interior appointments, gadgets and luxury items I can get..... ;)
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Re AWD, I guess you are not in the part of Nevada where you have to worry about snowstorms! Do performance options have any appeal to you at all?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I guess if you don't mind squandering money for things you don't like then everything is just fine. But that ain't me. I haved three cars with heated seats and never use them. Isn't this a waste of money? However I would have spent more money to avoid the heated seats. That's called "having you by the you-know-what."

    Bottom line is that car companies know how to extort money from us and at the same time lower their production costs. For instance, in order to get rear side air bags do you have to order the Comfort Package Plus package? Ridiculous. Same thing with the rear sun shade. That's all I want, not the friggin' package. I don't run a spa for my passengers. They don't need massages and custom multi climate zones are not necessary in the confines of several square feet.

    I am not in the camp who would likes to donate money to Lexus so they can be at the same price of the German cars. I'll take the bargain aspect thank you. I prefer to see a car offered for as little money as possible and add options as I like them, as easily as putting groceries in a shopping cart. This goes without saying for any car whether it's luxury or economy.

    This business of rooting for Lexus to raise their prices boggles my mind. Cost is one of their advantages. HELLO!!!
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I may be missing something but in looking at the numbers on the hybrid (and in reading the posts on the GS and RX hybrid boards) I was surprised at how small the improvement in mileage is. I drive an LS430 that's a large 8 cyl engine and is rated at 0-60 in 5.9 seconds. This engine gets me about 18 city and 26-28 highway. That's really amazing to me. The new BMW gas engines are getting very fast and also very efficient as well. I would think that the hybrid advantage that seems to be "only" about 5 miles per gallon is not enough to justify the higher prices. It seems that the new diseal from MB and BMW are more effieceint. I still might consider a hybrid as my next car because of social concerns and responsibility but after my initial research, I was a bit disappointed in the real world MPG. I know that Lexus is claiming V12 power at V8 mileage but I think on the current LS they already offer a gas version with V8 power at V6 mpg. Am I missing something as to the hybrid craze?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I think for the majority of buyers, the packaging / absence of a la carte options actually makes economic sense. Because it holds down production costs and hence pricing to the consumer. If there are 7 items in a package and most consumers find utility in 5 or 6 of them, I think the economics would favor packaging. But if someone wants only 1 or 2 of the items (which sounds like you) then it doesn't work well.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I don't know what "real world" numbers you have looked at, but you have to consider the source and whether the test has been done fairly or not.

    The best way imho to test mpg would be to have car A follow car B closely around a mixed highway/city course, and then have car B follow car A around the same course, and measure average mpg. I don't know of any tests that have been done like that.

    But I have seen a couple of reputable sources with comparisons. Road & Track (May 2006) for instance puts the hybrid Camry at 42% better mpg than the Camry V6 SE; CR puts the hybrid at 48% better than the V6 and 42% better than the I4. (Both tests were in mixed highway/city driving.)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Great post Designman!

    Choice should be made by the buyer and not the manufacturer.
    Most restaurants I go to offer two menus: A la Carte and Fixed. I will boycott any restaruant that has only fixed menus. There is not a single chef in the world that knows my taste buds better than myself.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I am not in the camp who would likes to donate money to Lexus so they can be at the same price of the German cars. I'll take the bargain aspect thank you. I prefer to see a car offered for as little money as possible and add options as I like them, as easily as putting groceries in a shopping cart. This goes without saying for any car whether it's luxury or economy.

    This business of rooting for Lexus to raise their prices boggles my mind. Cost is one of their advantages. HELLO!!!


    Well said.

    One of the things that gets to me, however, is the way some manufacturers (in this case I'll be objective enough to point a finger at one of my favorites, MB) price the options through the roof.

    By the time you are done adding even a moderate amount of options, the base price and the final equipped price are miles apart.

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    some manufacturers (in this case I'll be objective enough to point a finger at one of my favorites, MB) price the options through the roof.

    By the time you are done adding even a moderate amount of options, the base price and the final equipped price are miles apart.


    IMO the MB options are expensive in part because they are available a la carte.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    IMO the MB options are expensive in part because they are available a la carte

    That is assuming you want a whole slew of options la carte(in that case a package is a bargain). But if you dont then why should you be obligated to pay for what you dont want?

    This is why I like the way BMWs are priced. The only option I will buy from BMW is the sport package that does not cost BIG $$$. Like many others I do cherish my pocket book.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    One gets very worthwhile fuel efficiency. My GS450h is 42% more fuel efficient than a comparable Audi V8 I had a few years ago. This by itself is definitely not a reason to buy a performance hybrid. I regard fuel efficiency and the exceedingly low pollution as a bonus because the performance aspects of this Lexus hybrid are so superior. If you think hybrids are a "craze" don't buy one. The GS450h is in very short supply and surely the LS600h will also be. I want them sold to those that can appreciate their numerous virtues.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The GS450h is in very short supply and surely the LS600h will also be. I want them sold to those that can appreciate their numerous virtues

    The GS450H is in short supply because it is not produced in large supply to begin with. The short supply of the hybrid GS has nothing to do whatsoever with hot demand.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    That is assuming you want a whole slew of options la carte(in that case a package is a bargain). But if you dont then why should you be obligated to pay for what you dont want?

    People in that position aren't "forced" to buy anything from Lexus. They can turn to the Germans, as you have.
  • low_ball_88low_ball_88 Member Posts: 171
    Having packages are more economical even if you do not use the options. Most if not all luxury cars will have similar equiped options (one that most people want). If you decide to pick and choose, you will likely have to order your car. In that case, you will not have a bargaining edge when the car is not on the lot. In essence, you will be paying a premium (MSRP or higher).

    A good example is ordering a manual transmission on a vehicle that 99% of the time comes in automatic. Believe me, you will be paying a premium even if the manual transmission costs less than the automatic.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    People in that position aren't "forced" to buy anything from Lexus. They can turn to the Germans, as you have

    True. Cant argue with that. The option of choosing another auto maker is the best option of all.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If you decide to pick and choose, you will likely have to order your car. In that case, you will not have a bargaining edge when the car is not on the lot. In essence, you will be paying a premium (MSRP or higher).

    In other words it becomes a question of paying for what you really dont want ( a package) and paying for what you really do want (a la carte).
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    About the manual- that is not really true in all cases. For example, the BMW X3 comes by far most often with an automatic trans, but it is a cost-option.
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