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Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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Comments

  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    Well I'm happy with the supply being greatly restricted. That certainly helps keep the residual value of my car high. Checking on AutoTrader cars with mileage at or near mine (2400 miles) are selling at list. So why should I care if Lexus is not meeting demand; your post is irrelevant. As far as I can tell, Lexus can't be making much profit on them; for example, check the current price of nickel used in the batteries. I think Lexus is correct in keeping the performance hybrids limited editions; even better, if they were severely limited editions. I'm looking forward to my LS600h and hoping only the cognoscenti get their hands on them.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Well I'm happy with the supply being greatly restricted.

    You make the hybrid GS sound like a limited edition Ferarri.

    The reality is that the low volume sales of a hybrid GS has more in common with the low volume sales of a Honda Insight. Both cars are produced in low volumes not because of prestige but because of limited demand.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    Agreed on not paying for options you don't want. However, my point was simply on the user flexibility of it--if you don't want a feature, don't use it. Park Assist is not iDrive. Lots of standard features on luxury cars these days are ones that only certain people use, and many are those that drivers don't use/don't know/forgot about with no problems.

    And supposedly the user customizability of options on the Mercedes is what adds cost. Overall, the packaging does cost extra money on an individual basis, but supposedly it is less expensive overall for the cost of manufacturing the car. Packaging may mean lower prices overall.

    And as for the GS450h, there is more exclusivity to it than the Honda Insight, by far. For instance, the Neiman Marcus versions of the GS 450h which sold out in a matter of hours upon release, similar to the Saks Fifth Avenue versions of the new S-class. The added expense of the GS 450h, a hefty premium indeed, plus its packaging of many features optional on other GS vehicles, makes it a niche vehicle.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I agree on iDrive. It hijacks the buyer. If you don't like it you are forced to tolerate it if you must have a high-end BMW.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    My crystal ball says the LS 460 base price is $64,700.
  • baller4ever85baller4ever85 Member Posts: 14
    how much do you think an ls460 l would cost(everything but the executive package)? hopefully less then 85k.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I think you and everyone else are going to be pleasantly surprised, that is, everyone but those who for some strange reason want to see these cars priced on par with MB.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    If the MSRP is that, and I think that is a good guess, it already represents a hefty markup from the LS 430. Lexus is starting to price itself higher and higher.

    I'm somewhat surprised by their forecast for 30% LS 460 L sales, I think in the US it'd be much higher, but perhaps the price figures into that equation.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I'm somewhat surprised by their forecast for 30% LS 460 L sales, I think in the US it'd be much higher

    Agreed, I think a majority of 7 sales in the US are LWB.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    Your comparison of demand for the Honda Insight with that for the GS hybrid doesn't make sense
    The Honda Insight is called a "hybrid" but it is not a true hybrid ("true" as defined by the UN; the Toyota /Lexus hybrids are the only ones with power by either engine or electric motor or by both ) and the Honda Insight is certainly not a performance hybrid. You could compare the Honda Insight to the Toyota Prius (a true hybrid but not a performance hybrid) Priuses generally have an 8 day average dealer supply the lowest of all mass produced cars and demand is high.The demand for Honda Insights is small because it's an inferior car and its supply matches the low demand. Demand for the GS hybrid is unknown; we just know it is in short supply.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'm somewhat surprised by their forecast for 30% LS 460 L sales, I think in the US it'd be much higher, but perhaps the price figures into that equation.

    Well, the LS460L gets more of the "goodies", so it would seem that it should sell more than 30%.

    Unless . . . the REAL majority of Lexus LS buyers are less interested in the higher level of luxury, and are instead truly more value conscious than many of us would like to acknowledge.

    I would find it interesting if the majority of BMW 7 buyers go for the long wheelbase, the Mercedes S-Class is long wheelbase by default, but the majority of Lexus LS460 buyers conversely don't step to the plate but instead opt for the cheapest way to get the car.

    TagMan
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    Well the question is how many people currently opt for the ultra-luxury package, which is priced about where a well equipped LS460L will be.
  • akintee1akintee1 Member Posts: 4
    Can't wait for the lexus ls 460l to get to the showroom. I really need to compare with BMW 750 and Benz S550.
  • akintee1akintee1 Member Posts: 4
    My guess is LS 460L $70,000-$85,000 and LS 600h $80,000-$100,000
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    One thing is, Lexus seems to go for conservative forecasts. If I recall correctly, their IS series forecast seriously underestimated the demand for their 'halo vehicle' the IS 350. The more powerful, more expensive IS variant has sold significantly more than their forecast.

    It's possible that the 460 L forecast is small because they aren't certain how many buyers will opt for the larger version. It's an open question what the market composition of the New LS will be--but I think Lexus is aiming to catch more of the upscale, affluent buyer, while keeping a large portion of its value, efficiency-conscious base.

    I myself went from a long-wheelbase S-class to the LS 430, and although I wished I still had the oodles of rear seat room, I didn't miss it that much. But if there had been an LWB model of the LS, I might have gone for it, depending on how easy to park that vehicle was. My old S-class was really difficult to park here in SoCal, always searching for a large enough spot! But then again, that lovely car did not have Park Assist or cameras, etc.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Unless . . . the REAL majority of Lexus LS buyers are less interested in the higher level of luxury, and are instead truly more value conscious than many of us would like to acknowledge.

    This is the kind of erroenous information and mindset that we have debated in the past. I posted the demographics for LS owners in a post on this forum. The average age is 62, and the income is $200K+, ~60% are male. Are these not very comparable with those for the S- and 7-series owners ? Lexus may have "value", but I suggest that MB is overpriced for what it delivers, besides the fact that they are produced in high cost while Lexus is produced cheaper and hence is priced cheaper. Buyers at this age and income level are not stupid, hence the popularity of LS which made it the #1 luxury sedan in the US for 5 years running (except 2006). Len (ljflx) has posted repeatedly in the past that the lease prices between a $73K S430 v a $65K LS430 was barely different, while MB finance eats up the residuals.

    For those looking for luxury, refinement, first-class customer treatment, at an affordable price, Lexus is their choice. For those who desire a badge, and the look of affluence, MB fits the bill. Higher priced S-class does not suggest it is better than a lower priced LS, its just a matter of choice by the buyer.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    Someone caught an LS 600hL on the 10 freeway in LA a few days ago, and posted some cellphone pics:

    http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235615

    Or at least it looks like a 600hL, judging by those LED triple headlights. But no badging and no hybrid indicators.

    I want to drive that vehicle! But I imagine it will be invitation or appointment-only. I wonder how many each dealership will get. And going by Lexus' 'all Lexus customers deserve the best' philosophy, I suppose an IS owner will wait in the same line as a 600hL customer? Or perhaps it will be like my accountant friend, who is an LS 430 owner and never has to drive to the dealership for service--they always pick her car up for her.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    This is the kind of erroenous information and mindset that we have debated in the past. I posted the demographics for LS owners in a post on this forum.

    Who said anything about demographics or affordability? And certainly no need to get insulting. Yikes!

    I was referring to the possibility of LS buyers (which you indicate to be as qualified as buyers of the other marques) making a distinctly different kind of decision as to the long wheelbase and/or option levels and the resulting price tier from that choice.

    I don't know why you interpreted that in a defensive manner. Sorry if you thought I was attacking Lexus buyers. I certainly was not, and I am still very interested to know if Lexus LS460/LS460L buyers will make a different evaluation and choice regarding the added wheelbase/luxury items as compared to the buyers of the other luxury marques.

    Hope that clarifies that for you.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I am more than impressed with this particular vehicle, regardless of my affection for European cars.

    I am already on record as early as April 14th in the HELM forum as predicting the LS600hL price to be $91,350. Certainly it could be higher and would still sell out, IMO.

    I think if the car is less than $90K it would be a freaking steal.

    The LS600hL is not to be confused with the LS460 or LS460L.

    It is an entirely different animal, worthy of worldwide respect and recognition. It will be an ultimate HELM and a very exclusive vehicle.

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Or at least it looks like a 600hL, judging by those LED triple headlights. But no badging and no hybrid indicators.

    Can anyone tell by the front brakes? Also, those are the same wheels that have been on shots of the 600hl.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    ".... LS owners being more value conscious than acknowledged"... IMO is refering to affordability. I am sorry, that's how I read it. But let's move on. I accept your explanation...

    The LS460/L will be priced in the mid-60 to mid-80K range. These are already over 30% hike in the price of the base 460 vs the preceeding 430 base. I am assuming that you get a lot of features standard to justify that amount of hike. BTAIM, the 600hL is the car that should lift the 460 series to a new level. I hope that car is produced in very short supply to retain an exclusivity to it. That's something Lexus needs to do, and to resist the urge to meet the higher demand that car will attract.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    the 600hL is the car that should lift the 460 series to a new level. I hope that car is produced in very short supply to retain an exclusivity to it. That's something Lexus needs to do, and to resist the urge to meet the higher demand that car will attract.

    IMO, the 460 shouldn't need to rely on the 600 to be elevated. I expect it to be judged for what it is and isn't. The 460 and 600 are going to be very different animals.

    But I do recognize that the highest flagships in a marque tend to trickle down some of their attention and reputation to the rest of the line. Heck, it is in many cases the very reason for a top end vehicle in the line-up. To say "look what we can do".

    Anyway, I agree that Lexus should keep the "exclusivity" of this vehicle and try not lose it.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Your comparison of demand for the Honda Insight with that for the GS hybrid doesn't make sense

    My intention was to point out the similarity between niche cars .

    If you understood my post as saying that a hybrid GS and Insight are the same type of cars then I do apologize for my miscommunication.

    And yes despite its low volume sales the hybrid GS is a very novel and unique luxury car.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    Thank you for the clarification as well. I would also like to point out an essential difference which I feel is valid to the LS 600hL and GS 450h: both are intended to be low-volume, exclusive vehicles, the Honda Insight less so. Unfortunately for the Insight, high expectations ran afoul of low sales, and the vehicle may (or already has?) been cancelled.

    I feel that it is indeed legitimate, as TagMan has suggested, for Lexus to keep the numbers of Lexus hybrids low--so as to increase the exclusivity. Additionally, another factor may be of consideration--the high cost of construction; according to some sources each hybrid sold is still loss-making. Perhaps the Lexus hybrids are not, but the technological sophistication and engineering resources required to build each hybrid vehicle surely are greater than their conventional counterparts.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Re: Performance Options - If there is an engine option, I always opt for the larger one. Usually get almost as much mileage, and like the power. Other than that, I don't do anything extraordinary. I usually get a car with some punch anyway, and it's enough for me. I'm not yet sold on the coin required for the hybrid, so not interested in that. I also don't buy the V-12 either, just so that's clear. Now, why did you ask? :confuse:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Unfortunately for the Insight, high expectations ran afoul of low sales, and the vehicle may (or already has?) been cancelled.

    Correct. The Insight vehicle is cancelled. Interestingly, however, Insight sales (while pitifully low) have nearly doubled recently. The car will be replaced in two years with a more versatile and more advanced hybrid compact.

    To add perspective, Civic hybrid sales are considerably higher, but Prius sales have actually decreased, and the new Camry hybrid sales are brisk. Lexus RX hybrid sales have tanked WAY off, while Highlander hybrid sales are flat.

    Still . . . the LS600hL will sell out and be a smashing success, IMO. (but not forever, as surprises are in the wind from the competition).

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    So, it's official. In case anyone missed the recent announcement, the official HP rating of the LS600hL is 444 HP, with a combined MPG rating of 29.7.

    TagMan
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    Where did you find this announcement from? Lexus hasn't issued a press release concerning this.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I don’t buy this notion of exclusivity with the 600hL. First of all, that’s not what Lexus is about. They are about more for less. Second, hybrids are targeted for the mainstream. None of the other Toyota/Lexus hybrids are exclusive in any manner right up to the GS450h. By limiting production across the board they are taking the temperature of the market so they can budget, produce and price accordingly.

    Also, it costs a helluva lot more to manufacture hybrids, so until the profit margins can equal or better approach those of cars with lone internal combustion engines Toyota would be stupid to go all out right now with hybrid production. All of this has absolutely nothing to do with exclusivity. If anything, Toyota/Lexus is exclusive as a company in its position on the hybrid leading edge, but this is very different from the cars themselves being exclusive because the goal is to price them reasonably and for the company to profit by way of volume sales.

    As I alluded to previously, I think the early 600hL adopters are going to be delighted with the price, even if they will be hard to acquire at first. I expect the same price parallel and impact as all of the hybrids that preceded it. The only difference is that this is the LS level. This does not change the hybrid mission, it merely emphasizes it and makes it all the more real.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I beg to disagree...

    What Lexus has been so far (to now), is different from what Lexus looks forward to being (now to future). How do you raise the profile of your badge ? You need some halo cars, you need some exclusive product that people aspire to acquiring but which are limited. Toyota had the Century in Japan - a very limited production, exclusive and halo car, right up to today. And this car is the most exclusive Toyota sedan today.

    So Lexus' plans would include a way to enhance its image, and enhancing image is not mass-producing a high-end, ultra modern, high cost sedan such as the 600h.

    BTW, let us distinguish a mass-produced, econobox Prius from a GS-h or LS-h. These couldn't be any different in philosophy. The hybrid mission differs between a Toy or a Lex. The Lexus HSD products will encompass "performance" as the key hybrid driver, whereas Toyota-h cars emphasize MPG.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Question: is the LS exclusive? If so, then the hybrid will be exclusive. Fact is, the LS is not exclusive. Thus, I don't see how this can be expected of the hybrid version.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Question: is the LS exclusive? If so, then the hybrid will be exclusive. Fact is, the LS is not exclusive. Thus, I don't see how this can be expected of the hybrid version.

    The hybrid version will be exclusive. For starters, Lexus aims this car at the S600, A8 W12, 760iL, or even higher. And at this rarefied field, sales are miniscule not large. So, in terms of sales, YES, it will be "exclusive".
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Where did you find this announcement from? Lexus hasn't issued a press release concerning this.

    It's my understanding that Lexus has indeed annouced it ahead of the upcoming Paris Auto Show.

    See if this link also confirms it.

    link title

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    This article is quoted as saying 29.7 per imperial gallon in the intro portion of the article and that this corresponds to 24.7 mpg. But when one reads the meat of the article, it says 29.7 mpg. So, which is it? The 24.7 figure seems a little low while the 29.7 seems a little high. I wish they would get it straight ;-).
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I think "imperial" refers to English units. The 24.7 would be U.S. gallons I think...but possibly still measured using UK procedures. EPA mpg may differ...my guess is, slightly lower.
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    I can tell you Lexus has not made any official statement regarding horsepower or mileage.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I can tell you Lexus has not made any official statement regarding horsepower or mileage.

    So, you suspect that the headline "official Lexus LS600h horsepower and fuel economy revealed" is not
    quite so "official" afterall?

    Gosh . . . and to think I was excited that I might have found incredibly relevant info, and of course, my immediate reaction was to share it with all of you. I guess we'll have to wait and see if it is accurate or not.

    That headline, then, is terribly misleading, if it turns out to not be true.

    TagMan
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    Its possible that those are the official figures, and that they have been leaked or otherwise obtained by the source, but as far as Lexus press relations goes, they haven't given out that information.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    TagMan:

    This info and link had already been provided in this forum 4 days ago ;)

    oac, "2007 Lexus LS" #2505, 27 Aug 2006 10:15 pm
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    That explains it . . . I got back from vacation that night and started posting again the next day on the 28th without carefully reviewing all the prior posts. It therefore escaped me, but I'm not surprised that if anyone else here were to have posted that info, it would likely have been you! I wouldn't expect less from ya. ;)

    TagMan
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    It's also a question of how you define "exclusive." By their sales forecast, the LS 460L is somewhat rare, at 30% expected sales, but given the class-leading sales figures of the LS series, is not necessarily very 'exclusive' by ultra luxury standards...we're talking several hundred a year.

    Or is it? It could be seen as exclusive, and perhaps to amplify that, Lexus has given the LS 460L many more standard luxury features, etc. The image of the vehicle may be affected.

    The thing is, the sales forecast recently leaked at Autospies did not include Hybrids, IIRC. So it's an open question of how many sales this "ultimate Lexus" is forecast to do.

    Throw in the rumored "L650h" and there's another puzzle for the future direction of the Lexus brand. It remains to be seen how far upmarket Lexus wants to go with the LS series.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I could not agree more. Lexus is right where they want to be and I think they will stay there. They could care less about competing with other makes. They have one of the best products available at any price and they have the price pegged where they are optimizing their cash flow. What more could you ask for. Lexus is simply a different breed of cat and at this point they really have no competition.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Why is the LS not Exclusive, designman? To a degree, I believe it is - and the profile of people who drive them is predictable. You see them at the Country Club, not at the In & Out.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    I think he means 'exclusive' as defined by "rare and hard to obtain." The LS is Affluent and Upscale, but it's sold in large enough numbers so as to be rather mainstream and not exclusive by that definition. The same could be said of the S-class. But the Volkswagon Phaeton is 'exclusive' by virtue of its small sales numbers. Of course that is due to lack of market success in the US; perhaps another form of 'exclusivity' could be a limited production vehicle, say a Neiman Marcus GS 450h--each individually numbered. Very exclusive.

    However if you define 'exclusive' as 'mark of a select few,' 'obtainable by only highly successful people' etc., then the LS falls into that category. I subscribe to both interpretations.

    Some of us here, myself included, also see the LS 600hL as being marketed under the ('rare and hard to obtain') 'exclusive' category. Limited production, high value, long waiting list, lucky if you can get one at a price you like. When you see one, it's a special event--a rare one indeed. But possibly not individually numbered. Perhaps a LS 460L Black Diamond edition or something will have that.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    i'm not sure what numbers the hybrid LS will be produced in, but my version of exclusive would be the S8 and possibly the Maserati quattroporte.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It remains to be seen how far upmarket Lexus wants to go with the LS series.

    I think we are already seeing that Lexus is willing to go upmarket.

    Heck, what actually remains to be seen is just how far the American public will go at plunking down the green for these upmarket Lexus models.

    That's the real question that will ultimately get answered.

    TagMan
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Now, why did you ask?

    Just curious, based on your previous post about looking for luxury and gadgets, but didn't mention performance. I wasn't sure if you intentionally left out performance-oriented (suspension/engine) upgrades or just didn't mention it.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    Heck, what actually remains to be seen is just how far the American public will go at plunking down the green for these upmarket Lexus models.

    That's the real question that will ultimately get answered.


    Well said. I wonder if the new LS might, over its model cycle, see fluctuations in pricing that we haven't seen with previous LS models (IIRC, the previous LS was around $56,000 MSRP base, and stayed that way largely 2000-2006 with modest increases every year or so).

    I read that the first LS started at rock-bottom $35,000 in 1989, but within five years was pushing $50,000 (Japanese yen valuation had something to do with that as well).

    Perhaps the LS 460 might come in 'attractively low' or some other surprising number, and change within a year or two? Or perhaps they would prefer to have a stable pricing structure from the outset, and let sales fall where they may. I wonder how keen Lexus is on retaining the #1 spot in the flagship luxury market.

    And all this talk of a $100,000 Lexus hybrid, tempered by lots of expert and owner opinions that it will be around the $90,000 mark...
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    And all this talk of a $100,000 Lexus hybrid, tempered by lots of expert and owner opinions that it will be around the $90,000 mark...

    I think that there are indications that the hybrid will be priced between $80-90,000, and there is speculation that Lexus will come out with a higher model, how high is not known, that will cost upwards of $100,000. The feeling is that the LS600hl is not the flagship Lexus. Whether the higher model will carry over the LS name remains to be seen.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    All true...

    The 600hL should easily reach the mid-$90K in price. This car will be a $10-$15K premium on a base LS460L, or a $10K premium on a fully-loaded LS460L (adding a higher V8, AWD, HSD, 60+HP more, LED beams, etc). With Lexus already saying the L version will begin at $70K and up, you can expect the 600hL to be at $85K and up, IMO.

    The LF-A (Lexus GT500) is scheduled for MY2009 (Sept '08 release) and should top $100K list price. The super sedan is still quite much a secret. I will doubt that it will carry the LS name. It may be the Maybach, Arnage, fghter to put Lexus in the same stratosphere as these marques...
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