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Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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Comments

  • lexnhlexnh Member Posts: 2
    In a generally positive article on the LS460 also from Salzburg – C&D found fault with the acceleration and braking. “We found that a not-quite-short-enough first gear led to worse-than-expected acceleration times. The LS jumps off the line but falls flat until the engine reaches the torque band at 3500 rpm. Sixty mph arrives at 6.0 seconds more than a half second more than Lexus claims, not to mention what the S550 and 750i achieve”

    On braking – “Those tires (all-season) don’t help braking stopping distances, either, we measured a pitiful 209 feet from 70 mph, 30 feet longer than an LS430”

    My 14th spot at a NE dealer is refundable but the LS photos in both C&D and MT will probably keep it intact. I could probably survive with a 6.0 sec 0-60 but am concerned about that stopping distance.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    I must say it would come as a major surprise to me if the brakes are that much poorer than the LS 430, I would wait until other magazines release their results. The C&D obtained 0-60 is less than Lexus' usually conservative estimate, which is very atypical. If there is that braking issue, then it would represent a dropping of the ball on Lexus' part--I would imagine they generally intend new generation vehicles to beat out the old in virtually every way (more power and better mpg for instance).

    Anyhow, I am still of the belief that the LS 600hL will be 'ultimate' and 'exclusive' LS. Whether there is another vehicle above that (Century/Maybach class) is unknown, but I read somewhere they were going to call it L650h.
  • woppenhewoppenhe Member Posts: 61
    I am interested in the LS460 vs the 460L. Will there be any perceptable difference in driving interms of smoothness and absorbing bumps. And will the L version be harder to park or otherwise maneuver?
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    The long wheel base model is expected to be smoother as a direct result of a longer wheelbase.

    I imagine that it will be slightly more difficult to park, because it is larger, but maneuverability should remain about the same.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    My impression of the 07 LS would project lots of new customers, and lots of available pre-owned LS430s next year.....
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    My impression of the 07 LS would project lots of new customers, and lots of available pre-owned LS430s next year.....

    I agree. The '07 will sell very well.

    I like your perspective about the potential glut of used LS430's. Do you think that there will be enough of them to impact the resale values?

    BTW, I posted a goody for you on the Jaguar XJ forum. :)link title

    TagMan
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The potential glut of pre-owned LS430s on the market will be contingent upon new sales, of course. Some are in leases, and generally can't get out of them easily, so we'll be depending upon releases of paid off trade in's....
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Makes good sense . . . additionally, the price increase of the '07 should create some price support for the resale value of the LS430's.

    TagMan
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Price support for used 430s will be interesting to watch. If a real glut of them appear, prices will soften, unless they are scarfed up by dealers quickly. That may happen. Then, if the absorbtion rate by the public is brisk, prices will remain solid, as will reputation and value in the public mind. Of course, no dealer likes to have any of the new 06 430's on the lot when the new 460 appears, they become immediate boat anchors...

    I'm predicting an enhancement in the reputation of the LS when the new one is introduced. If I were BMW, I'd be concerned.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    If I were BMW, I'd be concerned.

    Well, FINALLY, someone else talks about the impact the LS might have on BMW.

    Where were you months ago when I presented a huge case in the HELM forum about just that?

    Shortly after the information about the '07 LS and IS were released, I had suggested that Lexus has BMW in their crosshairs, and the new LS, as well as the IS, would impact BMW sales. I was all by my lonesome on that perspective, but it is an opinion that I stick by, even if I have lilttle or no company on that particular view.

    TagMan
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    I agree with you, from a numerical standpoint BMW is #2 to Lexus in sales; Lexus however is aiming for BMW market share with the IS and GS sedans (at this month's sales figures, #3 in the market to BMW's #1).

    At the flagship level, the LS has historically been #1 in the flagship sedan market to BMW's perennial #3 in sales numbers. That being said, I think in general Lexus is aiming at BMW because it has successfully targeted Mercedes in the past with brand's focus on luxury, quality, refinement; now its increased sportiness expansion is targeting BMW. This will probably seek to maintain the numerical superiority and aim to increase parity on the $$$ basis.

    With the LS offering SWB, LWB, and hybrid models, the new LS lineup (LS Series) can help Lexus achieve a variety of goals, one of which could very well be targeting the BMW 7-series both in the US and elsewhere.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I agree with you

    I think in general Lexus is aiming at BMW because it has successfully targeted Mercedes in the past with brand's focus on luxury, quality, refinement; now its increased sportiness expansion is targeting BMW.

    Now we're getting somewhere.

    As further evidence . . . look at the styling cues. It would be in denial to not recognize the BMW influence on these latest Lexus models. It's no coincidence.

    BTW, Mercedes is still a primary target, and you worded your post well by saying that targeting BMW is an expansion, not a replacement.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I, personally, don't see it as Lexus Vs. BMW, but as Lexus just expanding it's portfolio, and trying to broaden it's list of virtues before they get permanently typecast.

    As I've said before, I believe sales are TOO HIGH at Lexus. Raising the LS460 to $65k, and LS460L to $70k is appropriate, and, by coincidence, puts the BMW 7 in the LS' crosshairs. I wouldn't call the 7 a "target" for Lexus, doh. :surprise:

    The IS is a very different issue, as the 3 is the Benchmark, and the IS is here to match it in size and image.

    Unfortunately, the cars' personality is noticably compromised, and doesn't live up to the image it's suave exterior projects.

    The 7 will start to lose share to the LS460L, I have no doubt, if for no other reason than iDrive, and the new LS' size, looks, and power.

    The 3 is safe, for now. The IS is good, real good. But they won't let it cross the line into being a true "Sports Sedan". A pity. :sick:

    The new G, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have that problem.

    DrFill
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    I agree that sales are very high, possibly too high, at Lexus. I think only Cadillac crossed the 300,000/year barrier a decade ago, and now Lexus has done what the other brands couldn't--in terms of volume, # of customers.

    7-series is a target, for sure. I would like to see that happen, if only to teach the Bavarians to drop iDrive and improve their interiors.

    And just to go slightly off-topic, the IS is doing quite well enough, sales are already over projections. I believe the IS has achieved its mission wonderfully.

    The thing is, Lexus probably wants to retake #1, after likely having the first year in a while not being top dog in the flagship segment (new S-class). There has to be some fairly sophisticated math going on to determine how the target market will absorb the price increases and still turn out in droves.
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    What everyone has to realize is that the ultimate goal of Toyota is to be as profitable as possible. The goal is not to become the most prestigious or expensive brand. They are not going to overprice the car just because Mercedes does. They are trying to get as many of the cars sold as possible.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    Well I think Lexus has maxed out in the US in terms of customer #s, their goal for the LS is for it to lead the charge of expansion in other markets such as Japan, other parts of Asia, and Europe. How the pricing figures into that strategy will be key as well.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Pretty good review....

    http://mag1.olivesoftware.com/am/welcome/WRM/WRM-2006-09.asp?

    I am a subscriber (free subscription)... if you cannot read this, simply subscribe. You would love their reviews.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    Thank you for that heads up!!! I downloaded the issue, I am a member also. Their reviews are a delight to read, there's something about Winding Road that is very enjoyable in all their articles.

    They said "we have no doubt that the stated 0-60 time of 5.4 seconds is conservative." :surprise:

    Also, they really liked the audio system...
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The IS is good, real good. But they won't let it cross the line into being a true "Sports Sedan". A pity.

    What's the story on the IS500 then?

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    What everyone has to realize is that the ultimate goal of Toyota is to be as profitable as possible. The goal is not to become the most prestigious or expensive brand. They are not going to overprice the car just because Mercedes does. They are trying to get as many of the cars sold as possible.

    Lexus can do both!

    They can sell the base LS460 in VOLUME, and be highly profitable, yet they have managed to create the potential for being one of the most exclusive vehicles with the LS600hL, and the upcoming 650 (or whatever it is called - perhaps the LF650, as I'll suggest for now).

    This way they sell in volume AND they sell limited EXPENSIVE vehicles . . . now, I call that having your cake and eating it too. Leave it to Toyota/Lexus to accomplish the impossible.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    As any enthusiast will tell you, the difference between a very fast car and a sports car/sedan is the tranny.

    The IS350/500 are very fast cars.

    Mercedes makes several very fast cars.

    Haven't seen one labels a "sports car" or "sports sedan".

    Rocket, Missile, but not "sports" related.

    Regarding the price of the LS, they'd sell a lot more at $30k.

    Mercedes will sell 30k S-Class this year, at $85k+!

    50k is not far-fetched if the LS starts at $65k.

    Lexus has to balance value, brand image, competition, and strategy to raise the LS' perceived value, and Lexus' market relevance.

    It's not a pennystock anymore.

    DrFill
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    Lexus's goal is not to raise the perceived value of the car, it is to maximize profit. This means selling cars at neither the maximum nor minimum realistic price, because at either extreme you are selling either too many cars at too little profit each, or too few cars to maximize profit. Therefore, we can expect the price to be around $60k base, and if I had to wager a guess mid 80s for the 600.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    Lexus can do both!

    They can sell the base LS460 in VOLUME, and be highly profitable, yet they have managed to create the potential for being one of the most exclusive vehicles with the LS600hL, and the upcoming 650 (or whatever it is called - perhaps the LF650, as I'll suggest for now).

    This way they sell in volume AND they sell limited EXPENSIVE vehicles . . . now, I call that having your cake and eating it too. Leave it to Toyota/Lexus to accomplish the impossible.

    This is a possibility! It's a business, and profit is a main issue--Lexus is already the most profitable in the US of all the mainstream luxury makers. It's also about prestige, and the higher-priced models will aid that effort. They may also raise the value of the brand overall and increase profit, in ways that previously price advantaged vehicles cannot do.

    I think LF 650 is ok sounding, but their concept vehicles are already LF. Supposedly the LF-A becomes the GT 500...Previously I thought a supersedan above the LS 600hL would hurt the LS, but now I think that if the car is sufficiently different and rare, limited-production, that might not be the case.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I'm sorry I wasn't there to support you, tag, on the HELM board when you were the lone voice for Lexus taking on BMW successfully. I'd have your back on that. Problem is, the HELM board is so very Germancentric, I left after a while. Seems that you and I were "not welcome on the board" because Lexus didn't measure up with blue enough blood to be discussed there. I wager, we'd have the same problem now, but if you want to give it another go, I'm game. This time, I'll be there for ya. ;)
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    The review talked about how good the brakes were, how the optional sport mode really improved the handling, especially around the corners, practically eliminating any body lean. When you compare the LS460 reviews from MT, Winding Road and C&D, you'd wonder if you were reading about the same car.... Hmmmm...
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Seems that you and I were "not welcome on the board" because Lexus didn't measure up with blue enough blood to be discussed there....

    NV, you are confusing TagMan (a G'fan) with someone else wrt HELM ;) but talking about the LS, I'd wager Lexus plans big things with its 3rd-gen LS460. Attack the S with the LWB and 600hL, and the 7 with the SWB/LWB twins. Either way, its going to be interesting as these cars battle it out in the f/s lux sedan class. I am not going to get into the trap of claiming Lexus is aiming for BMW. There are those waiting to pounce on such comments ;)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    See post 2663, oac. I don't think I'm confusing Tagman with anyone. Am I?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    See post 2663, oac. I don't think I'm confusing Tagman with anyone. Am I?

    No confusion whatsoever. I am known to love Eurocars, so what? You already know that. But I am obviously respectful of Lexus, particularly when it comes to their brilliant marketing strategies over the years, and I have posted countless posts to that effect.

    Further I was the first poster to call the LS600hL an ultimate HELM and discuss its exclusivity. Yes, this was done in the HELM forum. But just because that forum includes more marques than the Lexus LS, doesn't mean that it wasn't an appropriate place for the discussion.

    And it is I, TagMan, who was , in fact, the lone poster who argued that Lexus has BMW in it's crosshairs. I recall describing the Lexus strategists as "snipers with powerful scopes who had BMW in their crosshairs".

    Feel free to agree or disagree with me for the merit of my words, but not because I happen to like European cars, for goodness sakes.

    Heck, for that matter, who doesn't like a Porsche around here? ;)

    Also, regarding the HELM forum . . . The situation there is simple. Most of the HELM vehicles are European, except the Lexus. So naturally there will a significant number of posts that highlight the European cars and are critical of the Lexus LS. That shouldn't matter, because the truth is that the Lexus LS has strong legs to stand on, and makes for very lively and spirited comparisons between the vehicles themselves and their respective sales data.

    Any true Lexus LS fan that really believes that the LS is a HELM should stand up for that vehicle and post on the HELM forum with true conviction, IMO.

    I have always said that the LS is a HELM, BTW, and I have no reservations about posting comments about the LS on the HELM forum, whether they be positive or negative.

    Rest assured, there is no confusion, nvbanker.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I am not going to get into the trap of claiming Lexus is aiming for BMW. There are those waiting to pounce on such comments

    I am glad. I am very glad. For now at least I can remain on lurk mode. ;)
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    The review had the first mention of the drag coefficient and .26 is excellent. It also seems that the L version has extras besides rear seating luxury. Better brakes, tires, suspension and other fahrdynamik features are available which the article indicates are only for the L. If true, the 460 and 460L are distinguished by much more than wheelbase and backseat comfort.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Thank you for clearing that up, tag. Fact is, I'd rather have an S-class, and I admit it. But the repair costs compared to the Lexus are staggering, even down to the oil changes if done by the dealer. The MB engenders much more passion, is better looking, driving, and is more comfy. It's probably a better car, from a design standpoint. But the LExus is trouble free, cheap to operate, and still nice to drive, even if nobody gets a heart throb when they see it. I just can't afford $150 for an oil filter.....that's about it.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    Without getting into too much comparison, I would like to offer my opinion that the LS will be just as comfortable if not more, and will likely have excellent ergonomics. Touchscreen operation and other features will make ease-of-use among the best in class. Styling, driving, and the personality of the car are more subjective...but I would wager that the LS this time around offers more in each area.

    I am looking very much forward to seeing and driving this car at Taste of Lexus very soon! Hopefully they will have the competition there for side-by-side examinations!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Ok, I do agree with you on the functionality of the LS - it's better than the MB. The MB Comand center is a nightmare to operate, IF it functions properly at all. Lexus has the most user friendly navigation I've ever used. It's so friendly, than when I rent a GM car or Nissan with the stupid Delphi Toggle around the horn Nav system, I just give up and forget it. There are other examples, like redundant switches for all functions controlled by the Touch Screen. Then there's the voice command system, but if you don't care about talking to your Lexus, or going through the computer to change your radio station, volume, or temperature, you can just press a convenient button, one keystroke as it were, and you're there. I like that.

    No, I'm satisfied with my LS< or I wouldn't have purchased two of them in succession - I just am saying that Styling is the biggest weakness of the car, which may be remedied in 07 from what I've seen. The S-Class is a bit more driver involving, fun to drive, powerful, if you get the 500 engine, but for the money, and the quality, the LS is doing fine for me.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    Good to hear the LS has done well for you so far. Of course, 'for the money' on the LS 460 is eagerly awaiting release of pricing details for the 460, 460L, and 600hL (wonder how long we need to wait for the hybrid?).

    And same for the looks, I need to see the car in person. There's something about the new Lexus designs that make them look different when photographed vs. in person.

    BTW, Motorweek is featuring the LS 460 in an August episode, which should still be airing at your local PBS station somewhere. I don't get Motorweek in my area, has anyone seen it?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I got a copy of the MT article on the new LS460. It was hard to find anything they didn't like about this car. And they had long drives of the 460L with the optional suspension/sport package. They preferred the LWB version bcos it is better balanced, and has all the goodies for this model. Of course, they had so much fun turning off the ASC and smoking the tires.... No LS ever had that feature. Methinks the new LS460 really has lots of great things in store for the competition as well as owners. With 8,000 names on waiting list, I don't expect any discount this year... Maybe as the 600hL release approached, one can get a deal... I hope so...

    Altho' I have been looking for a SWB, however, if the sport package is ONLY available for the LWB, I may have no choice than to go for this. Of course, I need to test drive both SWB/LWB w/without SP to make that decision. OR... wait for the '08 release when AWD and changes in packaging may occur to permit the SP on the SWB trim.... Decisions... decisions... decisions....

    19" wheels, summer tires, 14" front/13.5" rear brakes, tightened air suspension, etc in the SP (or Touring Package) sounds like a lotta fun car. And with the longer wheel base, that should ensure a very smooth, compliant, luxurious, yet engaging ride and handling when attired with the SP, AWD, and a kill switch for the nannies.... Oh wait... these are all available on the 600hL !!! That's why that car is gonna rock...

    Sept 20-ish is when we get the prices...
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Fact is, I'd rather have an S-class, and I admit it. But the repair costs compared to the Lexus are staggering, even down to the oil changes if done by the dealer. The MB engenders much more passion, is better looking, driving, and is more comfy. It's probably a better car, from a design standpoint. But the LExus is trouble free, cheap to operate, and still nice to drive, even if nobody gets a heart throb when they see it.

    I completely understand. And even though there are some Lexus owners out there and on this forum that are, well . . . wildly passionate about the Lexus LS, there are MANY folks who would say EXACTLY what you just did in your post. There is nothing unusual or uncommon about it at all. You have lots of good company.

    I personally expect the latest generation of S-Class to have improved reliability ratings, and BMW as well for that matter, but there should be absolutely no denial by any rational Eurocar fan that Lexus is statistically tops for reliability. According to latest statistics, however, even the "average" reliability rating isn't all too bad, so it does leave us more peace of mind to consider other marques.

    The new Lexus LS460, however, so far seems to be an improved vehicle, based upon early reviews, although not all reviews are favorable. In the final balance of reviews I think that the 460 is in fact a better vehicle than its predecessor. (but then again, so is the S-Class).

    I look forward to testing the new LS460 in the future, and I will ultimately make my own determination.

    I want you to know that I truly understand the many logical and intelligent and financial reasons to purchase a Lexus LS vehicle. Sometimes, however, buying a car is a little more than that, and that's when personal preferences really do matter, and need to be respected, IMO.

    TagMan
  • sidgriggssidgriggs Member Posts: 122
    re: Motorweek--do you mean a September show--I saw all the August presentations and don't remember anything about the LS????
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    I googled through the PBS schedule from early August through the end of September and I could not find a Motorweek show featuring the LS460. They feature a lot of other vehicles but not the LS460. BTW, this was for Wisconsin, but I imagine that all programming is similar for PBS across the nation. Motorweek is shown at 3:00PM Central Time on Saturdays.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    I apologize for any misinformation on my part, its been years since my local PBS station carried the show (which I watched religiously).

    This is where I found it:

    Episode Title: 2550/Kia Optima
    PBS broadcast window begins August 18, 2006

    Quick Listing:
    Road Test: The high value 2007 Kia Optima sedan
    Road Test: The 2007 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder
    Goss' Garage: The Truth about Long Life Oil
    Over The Edge: Shelby Club Mania
    Car Keys: First Drives � BMW 3-Series Coupe, Hyundai Entourage, Lexus LS 460

    I suppose this could just be a capsule review or something.

    http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/upcomingshows.shtml
  • mikeivanmikeivan Member Posts: 42
    No mistake, I actually saw this show about two weeks ago. Not an in depth review but pretty positive, IMHO. I called my wife to watch it (she does not want a 460, loves her 430) and she said "Oh, that's a pretty car and a pretty color (sort of desert tan)." Maybe I have a chance.
  • mikeivanmikeivan Member Posts: 42
    I thought the increase was more like 5 inches, which would make a difference in the supermarket parking lot, IMHO. The 430 is so manuverable, I would hate to give that up.
  • joshusmithjoshusmith Member Posts: 8
    hello everyone

    I was wondering if anyone got their hands on a 2007 LS yet. Any special dealer sponsered events?

    I have already test driven an S550, but wasn't very impressed with the interior quality. The ride is not much improved over the old S either.

    What do you guys recommend??
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    I was wondering if anyone got their hands on a 2007 LS yet. Any special dealer sponsered events?

    Just received in the mail today an invitation to the Taste Of Lexus in DC on Oct. 7-8, featuring the LS460, the ES-350 and the GS450h. Unfortunately, I will be out of town that weekend.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I'm not ready for the Hybrid yet. The Cost/value proposition doesn't work for me.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    registration is now open

    register here
  • dc661dc661 Member Posts: 71
    From Taste of Lexus website.

    What cars will be available for me to drive?
    You will have a chance to drive the latest Lexus models: LS 460, GS 450h, GS 350, ES 350, IS 350, IS 250, RX 400h, RX 350 and SC 430, as well as competitive vehicles for the all-new LS.
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    I was planning to go to the event in Chicago, sadly I will be overseas during the first week and unavailable the second weekend. Hopefully someone will drive it there and let us know, since that is before the official release.
  • derrelhgreenderrelhgreen Member Posts: 234
    All times and dates are booked at both the Orange County and Los Angeles locations.

    We are standby for Orange County.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    Detroit Free Press Tom Walsh column: Only the best will do for Mulally
    11:43 p.m. 09/06/2006 Provided by
    Sep 06, 2006 (Detroit Free Press - McClatchy-Tribune Business News via COMTEX) -- The newly named chief executive officer of Ford Motor Co. drives a Lexus LS 430, the flagship luxury sedan from Toyota Motor Corp. that he unabashedly says he purchased because "it's the finest car in the world."
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I heard he said he had a Ford Explorer, too.

    Until the Tombstone tires blew off! :P

    DrFill
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