Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

lexusguy · June 2005

I could see a Toyota DOD system on maybe Sienna or 4Runner, but not on a Lexus. I'm pretty sure no Acura products have VCM. Shutting down cylinders increases vibration and noise, not something Lexus is typically assoicated with.

jchan2 · June 2005

a 7 seater RX for the $45-55k class

Are they building one? My wife likes the current RX but we occasionally need the space for 7 people.

callmedrfill · June 2005

I'm in the wrong bydnis!

DrFill

lexusguy · June 2005

Lexus will point you to the GX470. Is it the perfect solution? No. But its what they've got. The RX's archrival, the ML350, no longer offers a 3rd seat either. They are too small for anything but little kids.

mfpr · June 2005

The LS, since it was introduced, besides being a great car, has always been a terrific value. With the introduction of the '07 model, I'm concerned Lexus will knock me out of the ballpark with the price. I bought an '04 LS430 about a year ago for about $54K, with just the Premium Package, but my guess is the '07 LS will have added content as standard and the base MSRP will be around $65K. I hope that's not the case because I had anticipated trading my '04 sometime in the summer of '07. I'm not in a position (and neither is my bank account) to spend $10K above what I paid for my '04. Can anyone else speculate on the price range of the '07 LS?

ljflx · June 2005

It will come down to numbers. If the Premium car is selling reasonably well they will keep it and kick the MSRP price up to $60K. If not then you are dealing with the next level of options up being standard and the car will start with a mid 60's MSRP. That car will be red hot in 2007 probably pushing unit sales to 40K - so discounts will be hard to come by.

mfpr · June 2005

A few days ago I checked the MSRP on the '05 LS with Premium Package and Smart Access (the mandatory options in my area), and the MSRP was about $59.7K. That's about as close to $60K as you can get. That's why I suspect the base '07, with the equivalent Premium package (if that's not made standard) will be close to $65K.

jchan2 · June 2005

I really don't want a V8, or a Body On Frame SUV.
I don't like the MDX as much as the RX either...

Guess I'll be looking at more mainstream family vehicles... (Odyssey, Sienna, Freestyle, Entourage, etc)

lexusguy · June 2005

Well, there's always the XC90, but if you want to be able to transport 7 adults in comfort, than a Sienna or Odyssey is a much better idea. The Sienna at least offers AWD, and in full limited trim, the inside is very nice. Its the "lexus of minivans" as the mags have said.

jchan2 · June 2005

I want to be able to occasionally transport 7-8 people, and the midsized crossovers with 3rd row seats fit that...

The XC90 reliability ratings scare me. Its got a worse than average rating from CR... Otherwise, I really like it.

A minivan or a Ford Freestyle is probably a better idea though... I don't need AWD and I sometimes need to transport 7-8 people...

Back to the LS...

nexuslexus · June 2005

Any speculation on how early to get on a wait list to get the LS460 by september '06? How hot do you think this model will be, wait list wise.

chris65amg · June 2005

I suspect that it will be very hot as far as these large luxury sedans go. People are pining away for a big powerful hybrid... and that can only help sales and publicity for the LS460. I would also suspect that it will be a little while before they start taking out waiting lists though.

Jchan2, if you really want to transport 7 or 8 people, I owuld go with a Sienna. It's more luxurious than a Freestyle. The backseat is a lot bigger, too.

lexusguy · June 2005

"Jchan2, if you really want to transport 7 or 8 people, I owuld go with a Sienna. It's more luxurious than a Freestyle. The backseat is a lot bigger, too."

I agree. Also, the Freestyle really needs that new 3.5L engine Ford is working on, the Ford Taurus V6 is just not enough for a car like that. The Ford Taurus V6 is not enough for the Ford Taurus.

jchan2 · June 2005

Will the Freestyle get the 3.5L in 2007?

Anyways...

Back to the LS (a car I'd probably never be able to afford)

Will it get longer? It seems pretty long already...

lexusguy · June 2005

I doubt it. According to Edmunds: "The Ford Freestar and Mercury Monterey minivans will be discontinued after 2007, about the same time the Ford Freestyle wagon will be phased out, according to supplier sources familiar with the automaker's plans. In its place, Mercury will get a freshened version of what was the Chicago-built Freestyle as a 2007 or 2008 model, finally giving the brand some differentiation from Ford and Lincoln."

The Freestyle will apparently be replaced with a Ford version of the Lincoln Aviator, probably using the same 3.5L engine that the Aviator is supposed to debut.

There will be a LWB version of the LS, so yes, its going to get longer.

callmedrfill · June 2005

is making quite the wise investment!

These vehicles are being discontinued right after the ad launch!

Anyone who can't see how ugly the Freestyle is, and is willing to pay for the same old, tired Duratec deserves the resale value they git!

I'm tempted to get on a Lexus LS waiting list just to get the word straight from the horse's mouth in updates and product knowledge.

In 15 years the car hasn't grown longer to please the Japanese market, where smaller is better, but a LWB will be made available here in America, because it would sell BIG!

DrFill

lexusguy · June 2005

I think whats happened is Ford finally woke up and figured out that they have absolutely no hope of ever competing with the T&C\Caravan. Now they're chasing the Pacifica instead. Making the Freestyle just to kill it and then re-launch it as a Mercury is a little odd though. They are desperately trying to establish some sort of difference between Ford and Mercury, and thus are juggling at least 2 or 3 x-over SUV products around. GM may be getting all of the bad press, but Ford's product portfolio is the one that is an absolute mess.

I'm very interested to see what Lexus interior designers do with the next LS. The Phaeton and A8 have set the bar extremely high for the level of elegance and luxury available in this class. Lexus has their work cut out for them.

callmedrfill · June 2005

The IS is a major advance in this class, as good as (or better) than the TL and A4, easily better than Infiniti and BMW.

DrFill

lexusguy · June 2005

Oh I'm not worried, I just want to see it. I think its going to be amazing.

chris65amg · June 2005

the fact that the LS has always had a gorgeous interior, they better really put on a good show this generation. I'm sure that it will be good, but the question is: how good?

nexuslexus · June 2005

Well, I guess since I need to get the LS as soon as it comes out, I will have to get on the waiting list as soon as the local Lexus Dealer creates one. I guess that would probably be around when the car is announced... in Detroit? Or Tokyo?

Does anybody recommend a specific Lexus dealer in the Detroit area? I am edging to either Lexus of Ann Arbor or Lexus because I haven't been impressed with Meade in the past.

In regards to a large people moving machine, I also recommend the Sienna. While I would prefer a Lexus (in regards to luxury), the Sienna XLE Limited is well equipped. In fact, although it doesn't have typical Lexus perks such as auto windows on every door and high quality wood and leather, the Sienna Limited has adaptive cruise control which works well, rear view camera, xenon lights, and other things that are NOT standard on the any Lexus.

Minivans also get better gas mileage (the sienna takes premium, so mileage makes a difference) and are more user friendly in terms of space, though the engines, styling and handling leave a lot to be desired. But if you need to carry that many passengers, the sienna is the way to go (my wife drives the sienna for the kids, but since the kids are almost gone this may be the last minivan we get).

I will stick with LS, though I don't carry too many passengers, and don't haul around the kids.

My son drives a Highlander Limited, which is pretty nice. Again, I may have preferred a Lexus based on higher reliability (on avg. according to Consumer Reports) and service, but the RX is more of a "mother's" car according to him, and I was happy to buy him a less expensive car. A Lexus version of the Rav4 would have been excellent for him though. I wanted a smaller car for him than the Highlander, but the Rav4 was not suitable, with its 4 cylinder engine and lack of amenities.

Actually, I guess what I have to decide is whether to get a GS300 AWD in September '06 or a LS460 AWD in September '06 (will they have an AWD LS by September? Where I live AWD or FWD is essential with the hills and winter snow).

Would the LS be a) available in AWD and b) worth the lack of discount and also lack of rating by Consumer Reports or JD Powers.

*sorry... I seem to have had trouble collecting my thoughts concisely and coherently.

oac · June 2005

*sorry... I seem to have had trouble collecting my thoughts concisely and coherently.

No problem. I think you did just great....

You are the target market for the next LS (I am also), and I think that the LS will probably go on the Tokyo Motor Show later this year, at least that's what some car mags in Japan are speculating. If that happens, then you and many of us can start to see what the real LS460 and its many other variants will look like. Clearly, this car will set and raise the bar on luxury full-size sedans once again, a la 1989. The new 4.6L in the SWB LS will probably not rate higher than 350HP, with a 3xxIb ft of torque. MPG will remain in the low 20s, despite the higher outputs from the new dual vvt-i engines. Straightline speed will remain under 6s 0-60, with the 4.6L/6A setup (heck, the current 290HP motor gets to 60 in 5.9s). And luxury features will be well done, as typical Lexus. I am waiting for this car, and will not get on a waiting list tho'. If these are hard to get, you can always employ the services of car shopping agents offered from your local credit union or Costco, for example.

nexuslexus · June 2005

Why not a waiting list... are there disadvantages? Since I have never gotten on a waiting list in the past, I don't know how these work... but wouldn't a deposit be refundable?

And would the Costco car program be able to find you a hard to find car? Or would they just be able to get you a better deal?

lexusguy · June 2005

"Would the LS be a) available in AWD and b) worth the lack of discount and also lack of rating by Consumer Reports or JD Powers."

An AWD Lexus LS is a big question mark at this point. Its a possibility.. but I'm not really expecting one. As for reliability ratings, dont worry about it. The SC430 and LS430 hold the #1 and #2 spots in the world for reliability. I seriously doubt that would change with the new model.

syswei · June 2005

My opinion is that we'll definitely see AWD LSs. The questions are when and in what form (hybrid or conventional or both).

nexuslexus · June 2005

Well... I have confirmed AWD will be available on the LS, I don't remember exactly where but I believe it was at the NAIAS.

I just hope it will be available immediately (the GS AWD was available from launch right?... or actually, I haven't seen any new GS's on the road... have they even been released yet?)

I would have to settle for a GS if they aren't AWD LS in september '06.

lexusguy · June 2005

Interesting, an AWD LS is news to me. Yes, the GS300 AWD was available at launch. That was definitely necessary, I'm sure they didnt want to give away any sales to the M35x or RL.

ljflx · June 2005

From everything I know AWD will be an option on the next LS and they may even ship mostly AWD's to the colder states for dealer inventory. Some have implied this will be a standard feature but I doubt it because there simply is no need for AWD in places like Florida where the LS is a huge seller. Supposedly it is Lexus' intent to make AWD available on every car they sell. So the ES and IS and perhaps even the SC will also get it.

nexuslexus · June 2005

Yes, I believe that AWD will be essential for the LS's increased success in the Northeast and the few other northern cities where the LS is targeted (Detroit, Chicago, Windsor, etc.).

Like they didn't want to give market share to the G35x or the RL, they won't want to give share to the S500 4matic or the A8 Quatro.

oac · June 2005

Maybe you haven't noticed, the A8 is no where in competition against the LS when it comes to sales. Even the S-class requires all four variants (S430/500/600/55) to achieve 60% of the single-trim LS in sales. So I don't think Lexus is worried about losing sales to either of these two cars. More like Lexus want to further push the competitions to the fringe of the market space, cornering ever more market share for themselves in the process. Hence the next redesign of the LS, with many trim levels - hybrid, LWB, SWB, AWD, etc.

ljflx · June 2005

Lexus sells more LS430's in 5 or 6 weeks than Audi sells A8's in a year. Audi gets little, if any thought here. The AWD in an LS 430 will be aimed at the S-class 4-matics.

callmedrfill · June 2005

Will the LS still sell 30k units a year if they sell at $65k base price?

Maybe Year 1. Could that be sustained?

With LWB and Hybrid sales, share will probably be the same, but profit will increase. I'm sure the Germans don't see the LS as a direct competitor because of the price difference.

DrFill

ljflx · June 2005

I couldn't possibly agree with you. Lexus has gotten rich in the most important market in the world. They are taken very seriously by MB, who is barely profitable right now. Just about everyone I know who drives an LS would have been in an MB S or E-class if Lexus wasn't around. You can't look at this as a world wide issue. Gaining or losing share in a market like the US can be the make or break on worldwide profitability. If your profits are hurt you seek all causes and you take them very seriously. Incremental profits that are lost from a market you once owned are a killer on any business.

lexusguy · June 2005

" I'm sure the Germans don't see the LS as a direct competitor because of the price difference."

Haha! This isnt 1989. The LS may not be a threat to them in their home market, but here in the states, M-B definitely considers the LS as a competitor.

Just curious, can an anyone tell me the ratio of S500 4matics sold to RWD S models? I just didnt think there was big demand for AWD in this class.

callmedrfill · June 2005

They will keep selling a V6 for $75k, even into the next generation. And a comparable S450 will be $90k+. So it hasn't become a better value against an LS.

The 7's ergonomics have gotten worst over the years as Audi and Lexus have raised the state of the art.

VW went over the LS' price by $10k without a thought.

The next LS should join them in the mid-60's, but it will bring plenty of market share with them.

DrFill

ljflx · June 2005

Where are you getting your MB prices? The V8 S430 is in the $75K MSRP range right now and has been heavily discounted (I've seen them advertised at $65K with lease deals cheaper than an LS by a decent amount) plus 4-matic is a freebe throw-in on top of that if you are lucky enough to find a 4-matic. The V6 S350 is supposed to be about $10K less in MSRP if it is even here. If MB raises the price of an updated S450 to 90K where does the next gen S500 go to - $105K?? They can kiss their sales goodbye after 6 months with those prices.

aggie76 · June 2005

I am one of those who cross-shopped the LS vs. the E-class seriously (and a few others for the fun of it) and went with the LS just as you said. I would have gone MB but given the value, reliability & space for what I was willing to spend it was an easy ultimate decision to go with an LS last year. No regrets at all.

lexusguy · June 2005

CR has customer satisfaction ratings currently back to '97, and there's an LS400\430 in the top 5 every year up through 2004. It probably goes back further than that Im sure. People that own a LS tend to like it very much.

merc1 · June 2005

Lots of Mercedes talk in here. The S350 is here and 4Matic S-Classes aren't hard to find. Though I doubt the new S450 will base at 90K, that is a bit much even for Mercedes.

M

aggie76 · June 2005

Agree with the ratings background as I had a '98 GS300 before my LS430. Have got a business associate with an '04 E500 with numerous issues. Every time he visits me he makes at least one statement regreting his purchase of his MB. Dealer service is the #1 complaint he has and he knows the entire team by first name in their service dept. I just have to LOL.

Can't wait for more specifics and photos on the next generation LS - had planned to keep this one for 6-8 years but who knows, the bug may bite me hard.

callmedrfill · June 2005

Not using transaction prices, as these vary WIDELY from place to place, and month to month.

Maybe the COMPARABLE V8 S is $85k. Autoweek reports that a V6 with comparable power to today's S430 is expected, than a S450 (see S500), than a S550 (check S600)

I would consider an LS COMPARABLE to a S with the $13k Luxury Pkg, which adds features that are also optional on the $85k S500. I would assume there is still a $20k difference in price for comparably equipped cars

I expect a Hybrid LS to run somewhere near the next S450 in price.

Do you expect Mercedes to raise prices on the S-Class significantly? In lieu of the current market condition, and their modest sales performance the last couple of years, anything over a modest increase would be a mistake.

$65k-90k should be Lexus' new ballpark.

DrFill

ljflx · June 2005

The comparable MB S-class to a fully loaded ultra LS430 is the S430 right now. The S450 is its replacement and will probably be priced similarly to it which is $75-76K not $85K. I don't even think an S500 starts at $85K. The S350 is MB's attempt to bring a 6cyl engine back to this class. Right now put the few things on an S430 that are lacking vs an LS430 ultra and you end up at an MSRP of $78K vs $72K in the LS. Now you can add some more things on that S430 that Lexus doesn't offer right now and you can probably get to $90K. But it seems to me that you would logically take an S500 over that for reasons of common sense and better future resale value, not to mention the engine that really should be in the S-class as the base engine in the first place. The reality - at least when I drove them in 2001 is you needed an S-500 to match the LS430's power. The S430 just didn't cut it. Whether the move to a 7speed tranny changed that or not I don't know. I would expect next gen LS list prices to range from $65-74K for a gas LS430 ($62K if they maintain a non-nav car) and $75-80K for a hybrid. The big V10 or V12 equivalent hybrid with 500+HP LS will probably push to $100K.

k_mitsui · June 2005

Hello All
I just want to inform all people from the Lexus LS forum that there's real prototype photo on the Lexus LS is now available on some member based Japanese and Asian websites.
These photos was taken approx 5 days ago while Kevin and Mr. Takada was test driving the new Lexus LS 4.6 liter, short-wheel base prototype outside the outdoor tracks at Toyota's Higashi-Fuji Technical Center.
Mr. Erik Bjalkvall and Mr. Nakayama from CarMode Japan were given speical permissions by Kevin and Mr. Takada to take two exterior shots of the new sedan while it has being tested on the test track. Therfore they are the only individuals that have acquired these true photo shots of the sedan...Do not trust anybody else!
Currently these photos are only restricted to individuals whom have register and subscribe a monthly fee. However a Chinese website recently bought the copyrights of these photos so you can view them in public...I will now provide the URL link:
http://www.pcauto.com.cn/newcar/abroad/lexus/0506/289367.html
Thank You for your attendsion, and I will keep up updated when new information is available
Ken

phenom1 · June 2005

That short-wheel base looks small and ugly to me. I seen a picture of the LS 600 in a Road & Track magazine yesterday. Looks real sporty...very nice. Thanks Ken for all your info.

mikegiller · June 2005

Here I was getting all pumped and crying of hapiness, about to see the 2007 LS, a car I am wanting to buy, for the FIRST time, and its pictures of the IS GT I've seen before.

My feelings are hurt

ljflx · June 2005

If that's an LS than Lexus has cut the size of its flagship in half. Note how small the tires are also. It's an IS prototype, hardly exclusive and as far removed from an LS as possible. I think we all know that the next car will be radically different but without a doubt it will have some signature carryover of the current car which, we can't forget, is the best selling car in its class. Besides my benchmark of the LS prelim pix/drawings being real is tied to the ability to see these 8 lines that are supposed to intersect somewhere on the side.

maxhonda99 · June 2005

Huh...those are pics of a Lexus IS with a supposed 4.6L V8 underneath the hood. That is definately not the next generation lexus LS!!

ljflx · June 2005

Maybe, he just put a wrong link in and will correct it. He has to know that is an IS.

chris65amg · June 2005

Nice IS, but I'm itching to see photos of the next LS....

callmedrfill · June 2005

Back to you.

According to this site, the S430 is $78, the S500 is $87k.

The most expensive LS is around $72K, and that will have many features that are also optional on the S500.

So the next-gen S-Class will go up in price (most likely, due to currency rates and more equipment) to at least $80k-90k.

And a fully loaded LS and a stripped S430 are NOT COMPARABLE vehicles in performance or features.

Thank you.

DrFill

Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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