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Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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Comments

  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Excellent points, designman.... None that I can really disagree with. We should know the final gearing ratios of the LS460 when the car gets here officially...

    Anyway, I am not trying to discredit the 8-speed transmission per se, but my intuition tells me to question it. I suspect it of being frivolous. The desire to stand out, to develop unique marketing benefits is just too compelling among all auto manufacturers, especially with luxury cars, and it is quite easy to realize how the title of this post is serious sizzle in the steak, apt to get luscious attention, marketing mileage.

    Well put... Its more of a me-2 thing, I suspect. But hey, if you are trying to prove a point, and put yourself over the competition, unique differentiation and a marketing sizzle of something no one else claims to have put you in a class ahead. Getting ahead is the name of the game. Does this mean we will soon see a 10-speed tranny ? Who knows :)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Does this mean we will soon see a 10-speed tranny ?

    I don't know but as this endeavor approaches infinity we arrive at the CVT... and this is already here.

    ;-)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I never read merc's post as a personal attack. I read it to say that he interpreted the torque data as he thought he understood it, and therefore you didn't understand it.

    Not much of a personal attack, IMO. I do understand, and granted, he could have used better words that just addressed the data and not your degree of understanding torque.

    But if that is a demonstration of your level of sensitivity, then you are probably better off to stay away, as you will ultimately just find yourself reacting the same way again from some future similar style of posting.

    It's not for me to judge you, oac. Draw the line for yourself wherever you want to. It's just my opinion that sometimes mountains are made out of mole hills, as the saying goes.

    I, and I'll bet the others as well, were much more interested in the torque data itself, and to resolve which one of your interpretations of the data was more in line with the facts. Obviously one of you may be closer to the mark than the other. A direct exchange of ideas would have brought us all closer to understanding the data better, but instead we all lost out.

    Syswei obviously saw the value in your cool post, and he did a kind thing to share it on the HELM board where it could be tossed around for further interpretation.

    Express yourself, and stick to your guns when you are sure of yourself, and back down when necessary. It's all part of the process, IMO. When you think about it, nothing can get too personal that isn't taken too personal.

    I hope you get my point . . . with all due respect, I might add.

    I'm still questioning all that LS460 torque data, and would like some clarity.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    After finally catching up with my mail (regular mail) I noted an invite to the taste of Lexus event at Belmont (NY) and a VIP invite to Ray Catena's LS unveiling in mid October. Will try to do both. In the meantime let's keep trying to get data and price specs on this car.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Tag - Do you remember when S-class prices came out vs. that cars first date of sale? It would be interesting to note if they led by a certain time period (a week or month) and also if they were disclosed before sales data (to US ports) were disclosed.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tag - Do you remember when S-class prices came out vs. that cars first date of sale? It would be interesting to note if they led by a certain time period (a week or month) and also if they were disclosed before sales data (to US ports) were disclosed.

    Best I can do so far is this:

    On January 10th, 2006 an official Mercedes press release announced that the MSRP would be $85,400, and indicated the official release date (to arrive at the dealers) as the week of February 7th.

    Here's a link - check the next to last paragraph for my reference.

    http://www.mbusa.com/cda/aboutus/jsp/index.jsp?page=news

    Hope that helps.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    So Mercedes was well ahead of car availability with pricing news. Then other then keeping Mercedes at bay with the S450, if that's even the case, I don't get what Lexus gains by being so tight lipped.
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Member Posts: 147
    I have information that suggests the pricing will be released next month.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Well it says here that they have to tell you the price of the car before they sell it to you. So on or before 10/18/06 (that's the day the car debuts here in New Jersey) we have to know.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Wouldn't the west coast port-of-entry be the first?

    And . . . are the distribution schedules exactly the same coast-to-coast?

    Certainly, BEFORE these cars arrive, there will be advance notice to the dealerships, at a minimum.

    I would expect a press release very soon, or doesn't Lexus work that way?

    Only other variable I can think of is that they have yet to clear out the LS430's, and the price of the LS460 will be closer than we expect. :confuse:

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    My dealership is finished with LS430's as far as I know. Lexus is just bad about this stuff. But yes the car's have to be on boats right now and the MSRP's must be on those windows or do they do that at port. The dealers have to know the prices at some level right now or within the next 7 days and are probably giving ranges to lower level salesman. It also seems that many of us have gotten the same data on prices recently. The problem though is we may have several months (maybe even 6 months) till we know the 600HL price.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Stopped by another local Lex dealer this past weekend. One sales guy told me to expect fully-loaded SWB @ $80K+, and up to $100K for the fully-loaded 600hL. I told him how stupid his guess on the SWB price is. I mentioned that the 430s sticker at $58-65K with most popular options, and would he expect a 30% hike to $80K for an LS460 ??? This seems ridiculous, at best. His only come-back response was: the S is still more expensive even at $80K ! :sick: I didn't bother to mention the S is a standard LWB !!!

    This is the kind of poor guess work on the part of these sales guys due to lack of knowledge. They seem to have no clue as to prices, and just shooting it off their rear behind... pardon my french...
  • ilijabmwilijabmw Member Posts: 15
    I came across this picture:

    image

    and was wondering if that blue inside the badging is optional or what. I don't really like it. It looks kinda cheap.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    One salesman told me that Lexus keeps such a tight control on information before the release, that they are just as 'in the dark' as the regular public.

    Although before the ES was shipped out, some savvy spy photogs snapped some shots at the port...

    Anyhow, as for the hybrid badging, yes I believe the blue '600h' tag is standard. This is because past RX 400h hybrid owners complained that their badging was not distinctive enough to indicate the hybrid status; so with the 2007 models, the GS 450h, RX 400h, and 2008 LS 600h L, the '###h' tag will have special colors, and 'Hybrid' badges will appear on the side doors.

    The GS tag is shown here:
    http://lexus.com/assets/models/gallery/photos_popup/main_assets/exterior/GSh-029- _lg.jpg

    If it bothers you that much, I think you could fairly easily arrange to have the badging replaced with a less-obtrusive one.

    I just wish they offered a choice of colors, or matched the color with the vehicle color, but hopefully in nearly all or most cases the badges match alright.
  • ilijabmwilijabmw Member Posts: 15
    if it glows @ night, then i might reconsider. lol
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    if it glows night, then i might reconsider. lol

    :) . . . comprised of photocells to help recharge the batteries. :P

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    OAC - an Ultra today without pre-collision goes to $71K. If you add on pre-collision and some of the other new options now availabe on the LS460 you probably would go to $73-75K on the LS430 (if they had been optionable in the 2006 model year). So the $80K with pre-collision and those other options for an LS460 may not be all that crazy. I'd say it's more $76-77K though. The question is would you rather havea a fully loaded $77K SWB or a mid-upper level (but short of fully loaded) LS460L at similar prices. I'd opt right out of a SWB model the moment it touches a LWB pricepoint just like I would have opted out of an S430 the moment it neared an S500's starting price if I were buying Mercedes past gen car. I also think Lexus would be dumb to ship SWB models that are more expensive than LWB models. Let someone custom order the LS460 SWB configuration that has every option. There's also no question in my mind that LWB models will have greater resale value 3 years from now than will price equivakent SWB models if they have similar mileage and condition. I'd say a $77K LS460L will be worth $2-3K more than a $77K 460 with more equipment. If Lexus ships too few LWB models the price difference may be as much as $5K.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Mmm, not true. Taste of Lexus got plenty of ink today. The problem has always been contentiousness and all sides have contributed. I can also recall plenty of times when there was nothing but Lexus talk with inevitable grenades lobbed at MB. I have my preferences but have always tried to defuse things with laughs. I've got two words for everyone... loosen up. This stuff ain't that important.

    Oac, tell them what we all are?

    ;-)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's just stick to the LS here and not worry about other discussions. Thanks.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The problem though is we may have several months (maybe even 6 months) till we know the 600HL price.

    len - I know it is early to say this, but I am very confident that your LS600hL will come in around the sweet spot you are hoping for.

    It makes huge sense to be in the 90K+ area. Given that there is supposed to be a super sedan LFS650, or something to that effect, I think Lexus knows that they need to be realistic on this LS600hL hybrid model. They'll save the six-figure numbers for that super sedan. I just do not see this LS600hL going into that six figure arena.

    As you say, there is a lot of time left, and it is hard to know with certainty. Of course it is always possible that the LS600hL price will be released along with the rest of the LS line-up, but I doubt it very much.

    One thing is absolutely certain, IMO . . . as I've emphasized from the very beginning, the LS600hL will be a very exclusive vehicle and will set a new standard.

    Just wait until the reviews of the LS600hL come out. I am convinced it will have absolutely unprecedented praise.

    You will be very fortunate to own one. Very fortunate, indeed.

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I just caught up to some posts on HELM and read Merc1's report on his taste of Lexus drives. I'd say the report was very well written, and I recommend it highly to everyone to read as well. One thing that caught my eye is the comment that the LS460L feels a lil' "lighter" than the S550 ? I checked on the weights of the two cars:

    S550 curb weight: 4465Ib
    LS460L curb weight: 4465Ib

    Exactly same curb weight, yet according to Merc1, the LS feels lighter and the S feels more sturdy.... Interesting comment... Cannot wait for the inevitable head-to-head comparo of these two cars... should be real fun.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Tag,

    Remember my post a long time ago on the Helm board when I reported Lexus was likely to make a super car and if that decision is a go than the LS600HL price stays on the lighter side. From my understanding today the L650 and LF-A will both be made and will have $125-150K pricetags. Nevertheless I still think the LS600HL, fully optioned, runs to or just over $100K (most though will likely ship around $90K) and I still think the early supply may sell over sticker. We'll see.
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    With the LS 460 L and LS 600h L being already rather Maybach-like when fully tricked out, I wonder how much more opulent the L 650 will be...perhaps a replacement for the Japanese royal family's Toyota Century?

    As for the designations, I have heard the LF-A being produced as the GT 450...L 650 sounds interesting, are there any other possibilities for this super-ultra Lexus?

    It's interesting how the LS 600h L price will be somewhat capped by market positioning of an L 650. We have heard all these rumors of the 'ultimate Lexus' and the 'super sedan' and in many ways the LS 600h L is such a vehicle.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    As for the designations, I have heard the LF-A being produced as the GT 450...L 650 sounds interesting, are there any other possibilities for this super-ultra Lexus?

    All rumors for now, but clearly the L650 may have a V12 motor, or a hybrid V10+battery. Toyota has a V10 that is scheduled to go into the LF-A, as I understand. The L650 should put out no less than 500hp, and may average 20+MPG... Won't that be something ? Incidentally, the LF-A is most probably a go decision already for MY2008, arriving Fall of 2007. Like you, I've heard it called GT450, or GT500. We'll know soon enough which motor it gets. But if a new V10 motor, would that not mean Lexus/Toyota have created 6 new engine powerplants in the past 3 years ?

    V6 2.5L (IS)
    V6 3.0L (GS)
    V6 3.5L (IS/GS)
    V8 4.6L (GS/LS)
    V8 5.0L (LS)
    V10 x.xL ??? (LF-A/??)

    Hmmmm....
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The L650 is likely to be a V12 hybrid on a stretched LS platform to 212-214". Toyota has a V12 in its stable - just not for this country. Lexus came very close to offering a V12 LS in 2001 but pulled it because they didn't think the US was ready for a $90K Lexus yet back then. Probably a wise decision for another reason as well - that being a V12 in a 196" lux car didn't make sense. I'd expect the L650 to be an incredibly opulent car in a different league than the LS600HL.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    OAC - they've also created a number of diesels that we don't know about yet. When you go to Japan see if you can find out what's going on with them and diesels. I'm sure Tagman would be interested in that too.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'd expect the L650 to be an incredibly opulent car in a different league than the LS600HL.

    A true world-class HELM. Chauffeur recommended . . . but with that V-12, driving it oneself would be too irresistable.

    Timeline? E.T.A.?

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    My comment about feel has nothing to do with curb weight, it is all in suspenion tunning, steering feel, the movement of the controls. In short the way a car goes about the business. This "feel" is what seperates a BMW from a Mercedes or a Jaguar from an Audi or Lexus. The Lexus is softer where the Benz feels stiffer and slightly more engaging. German cars have always traditionally been heavier at the controls, nothing to do with actual weight of the vehicle.

    M
  • excelsior88excelsior88 Member Posts: 71
    Do you know what the LS platform is called? It's all-new for the 2007 LS 460...will it be used in other vehicles besides the LS and L (L 650)? The platform is already 'stretched once' for the LS 460 L right?

    And while we're on the speculation front, any chance of an LS 460d or something for the Euro market?

    I agree the V12 LS 430 would have been premature, that was a good decision to delay that...but it also begs the question, a V12 LS from the latest generation?

    I think the L 650 would have ottoman rear seats, but on both sides, :D If they call it that, I guess the nickname will be "The L"...
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Thanks for the clarification.... I had always associated sturdiness = heavy, but I can understand what you mean here. Great stuff, and great write-up ;) I am jealous... a non-Lex fan gets a chance to drive the new LS, while a huge Lex fan like me hasn't... Sucks for me... but at least I have an idea what to expect when I take my test drive...
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Thanks for the clarification.... I had always associated sturdiness = heavy, but I can understand what you mean here.

    I've had the same need for clarification at times with "heavy", because sometimes it can mean substantial or sturdy, as you put it, but other times it can mean "overweight" to me.

    For the sake of an example, every time I ever test drove the Nissan Z, since the time it became the ZX to the present day car, I've always thought that the car feels "heavy", but I've meant it to mean that the car feels a bit lumbering and overweight to me.

    Anyway, not sure that adds too much more, but thought I'd toss it out there. :)

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    LS has it's own platform. Don't know Toyota's specific Euro plans for the LS. I just remember reading that they were developing a number of diesels for future European sales across the board.

    I'd imagine the L650 would have one price and seating could be configured anyway you want. There will still be people who may want such a car to accomodate 3 rear occupants.

    Tag - 2009 supposedly. Remember the LS600HL is technically a 2008 car.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Merc

    Just cauught up. As usual - great write-up and very objective as have been all your reviews of events like this. Too bad they didn't have a sport suspension car for you to test.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tag - 2009 supposedly. Remember the LS600HL is technically a 2008 car.

    Porsche Panamera could also launch in '09. I wonder what MB has up its sleeve.

    TagMan
  • pearlpearl Member Posts: 336
    there used to be an old saying, back in the day: "if it won't go, gear it", or something like that. In today's landscape with computer assisted design and control for everything, it should be easily possible for any serious manufacturer to closely examine the engine power/torque curves, final drive ratio and transmission gear ratios and optimize all of them to provide the best possible combination of acceleration and economy (or skew it one way or the other depending upon the mission of the car). I tend to think that Lexus was more intent on "one-uping" Mercedes than delivering any serious performance/economy advantage; however, I am happy to wait to see how the 460/eight-speed combo works in practice.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Change the Maybach to a model line rather tha a different named brand is what I'd do. They already have cars in the price range of where Lexus is going so they can only update.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Just cauught up. As usual - great write-up and very objective as have been all your reviews of events like this. Too bad they didn't have a sport suspension car for you to test.

    I'm glad you liked the review, but the LS460L I drove did have the sportier air suspension setup. I specifically asked the reps about this and I drove the car twice to make sure. This is why I didn't stand in line to drive the SWB LS460 because it didn't have the air suspension setup.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Air suspension in sport mode or the real sport suspension? The latter will be an option on the LWB and will have better cornering than the former based on my understanding.
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    The "Touring Package" is the true Sport Susp. setup, with 19" wheels. It also has the electrified brakes and steering, so you may get six of one, half-dozen of the other....

    The Air Suspension may be the least sporty set-up available!

    From the pics provided, those look like the 18" luxury wheels.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I tend to think that Lexus was more intent on "one-uping" Mercedes than delivering any serious performance/economy advantage;

    Yes . . . but Yes again.

    Lexus was indeed, by admission, intent on one-upping the Mercedes 7-speed, but beyond that magic number 8, was the intention of achieving a competitive 0-60 time, and a superior fuel economy rating.

    BTW, I agree with your basic premise of computer intervention regarding engine and tranny data.

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Good point... cos like DrFill pointed out, the real sport suspension has the upgraded wheels (19"), bigger drilled/slotted brakes, and upgraded A/S. Looking at the pics from Merc1's drive event, none of the LS seemed to have this setup, so no real sport suspension in the pack. Could be wrong tho'...
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    It is defiantly an exciting car. Across the entire scope of manufacturers it is by all accounts, a very worthy HELM. Can't wait to drive it at the "taste"
    I do wish the styling separated itself some from the "family" but none the less, I can't wait to drive it and will post accordingly.
    FWIW, I agree with Merc on the heaviness of some cars not neccisarily being "unsprung weight" but the steering feel, switch gear, and the feeling of pulling up pavement which is how I would describe the Audi's I've driven
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    German cars have always traditionally been heavier at the controls, nothing to do with actual weight of the vehicle.

    Indeed. The "heaviness" of the controls has everything to do with the amount of power assist that is put into the steering. The German cars have less power steering.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Not sure I totally agree with that, dm. Power assist is not the component that makes a car feel "heavy" or "substantial" to me. For example, a Cadillac CTS has very low power assist on the steering, but doesn't feel heavy or substantial to me. Same with a BMW 330 CSI. An S-Class has considerable power assist in the steering, just right IMO, but despite that, the car feels as steady as the North Star. I don't know exactly what it is that makes up this dynamic, and it could be a lot of things.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    From what they said the LS460L there that day had the "stiffest" suspension setup. Whatever that means. Then another rep stated that it was a "sport" air suspension setup that is only available on the L version. You never can tell with these ride and drive events because they hustle you from one car to the next.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    From the pics provided, those look like the 18" luxury wheels.

    So which wheels are these?

    image

    image

    Are these the sport package?

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The sport touring package is not air suspension. We'll have to wait to the model options are available for clearer details but that suspension is supposed to be the sportiest ride. That suspension is an updated and sportier version than the euro suspension that existed (though seemed impossible to get in recent years) in the LS430. One would think that if they went thru the pains of building one for this car that it would be more readily available. I guess you can also argue that should have been the case for the LS430. In 2001 - 2003 that suspension was avaialable and sold right out. After the 2004 refresh it seemed to be unheard of although it was listed as an option on the website.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I don't know which wheels those are but as a commentary I have never found Lexus wheel designs to be very attractive. I think BMW wheels are, on average, better looking than Lexus or MB.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    As well - their may well be an option on the air suspension cars for 19" wheels.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    So which wheels are these?

    My bad... those are the 19" rims. The 18" ones have like 10 spokes or something. The front brakes also looked huge, so I'd suspect the car had the sport package (Touring Package).

    18" wheel package:
    image

    19" wheel package:
    image
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