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S350 => LS460 SWB/LWB (4.6L 350HP) *seemed wrong to compare a V6 MB to V8 from Lexus, but they should be priced about same*
S500/750i/750iL =>LS500 (4L 400HP)
S600/760iL => LS600H LWB (V8+Battery, 500HP)
SL55/SL65 => LSXXX GT (V10+Battery = 600+HP)
Does the above make sense ? I am just wondering about the Lexus strategy here viz MB and BMW. They have to compete against these giants, and yet re-define a global image and brand for the next LS models.
I have read through many of the messages posted and I only have on thing to say. The New LS and its many configurations will simply blow away the S-class and the BMW 7 Series. These two pieces of over priced German scrap metal will become obsolete once Lexus unleashes the new LS for the year 2007. Both of these makes have gotten away with over charging the public for their imperfected experiments for far to long. The Japanese by far are superior builders when it comes to quality and that is the bottom line. The Germans may have had a jump when it comes to performance, but that will all end over the next decade. The Japanese have been very patient for many years focusing on building a name brand that is superior in quality to its competitors. That was Phase One - Lexus. Now they will launch Phase Two - which not only incorporates Superior Quality, but Superior Performance. With the launch of the new LS, Lexus will engage the Germans in a head to head battle for Superiority in Quality and performance. The German car builders have focused primarily on performance and have sacrificed a great deal in the area of Quality. Quality is much tougher to achieve than performance and takes a great deal more engineering expertise that the Germans do not posses (Reproducablity). The Japanese have studied and worked tirelessly over the past several decades not only producing the worlds best quality products, but engineering the worlds best products in their design phase. Now that they have accomplished the quality phase, Lexus will launch an attack one the Germans that will be relentless over the next two decades. They will not only produce Cars and SUV's that will out perform their German Competitors, they will also up the anttie in quality, electronic's and systems integration and will become a leader in the area of safety. With the introduction of their New High Performance HyBrid Engines, they will completely obsolete whatever comes out of Germany. Our good friends at M-Benz and BMW have been on the run for several years. It has caused them to produce Inferior Quality High Performance cars that are based on looks rather than sound principles, that will maintain customer loyalty and higher resale values. Lexus is cash rich and will spare no expense in Phase Two - two build high quality, high performance, cutting edge styling cars in the future. The German car makers have gotten away with producing inferior quality cars for far too long and now they will have to pay for their lack of attention in this area. The new LS will send a strong statement to all of its German and American competitors alike. They know now and always have, that Lexus is the most superior automobile that has ever been built. They have criticized their styling and lack of performance, but now they will see what Lexus has instore for them now. The new LS along with many of the new designs to come, will put the rest of the world on notice that their is a New Master of Performance in town and they're here to stay. If the Benz and BMW fans don't belive it, tell them to wait and see, because the best is yet to be. The German and American car makers are shaking in their boots right now in anticipation of the introduction of the new LS. They know now just as they did when Lexus first introduced the LS over a decade ago, that this will be a superior product for them to dismantle, learn from and try to replicate. People talk about how LEXUS borrows styling tips from their competitors and incorporates them into their designs, but how many of their competitors are borrowing and trying to replicate the superior engineering that Lexus has designed into their engines and electronic systems? How many of them have even come close to the superior quality and systems contained in the LS and been able to reproduce them for the same price? The Answer is NONE!!! They can not and will not match what Lexus is about to do to them. They Do not have the money, expertise or drive that Lexus has and will demonstrate over the next two decades. The Super Sedan War is on and I'm betting all of my eggs on Lexus. Are there any Benz or BMW takers out there? If so, you're as foolish as the rest of the German Car Idiot's out there. Continue to purchase substandard cars that are over priced, with poor quality, and don't maintain their value as well as Lexus. I guarantee you'll be left in the dust literally as the new Lexus products zip by you on the highway leaving you in their dusty wake as they move on to their next destination. All I have to say to the Benz & BMW crowd is, Bye!!! When you see and experience the new LS, you'll be experiencing the death of the German Auto Makers and their over priced JUNK!!! For all of you LOYAL LEXUS FANS, get ready for the changing of the guard, it will be sweet watching Lexus finally shutting the mouths of the German car fools. We welcome any challenges that they pose and will gladly accept their futile attempts to compete with the New Performance Master, LEXUS. That's all I have to say!!!
You might be interested in another couple of forums,
lexusguy, "High End Luxury Marques" #9809, 11 Jul 2005 7:03 am
and
lexusguy, "Luxury Performance Sedans" #2986, 11 Jul 2005 5:29 am
1. They trail in performance car. This is completely within their control and a big assault in already underway. This will be easy
2. Supercars & high end sport - They have none as yet but they are now in the planning stage. This is also under their control and they will have a great deal of patience here. I don't see them ever going to a Rolls level and you hardly need that. Maybach is already failing and this is hardly a growth or profitable business. But $125-$150K cars are on on their way and they will deliver more at a much lower price and will be hard to resist. Quality is always impossible to resist.This will not be easy but it won't be anywhere as difficult as some want to believe.
3. Status and perception - Partially under their control with marketing and the increasingly growing stature of Lexus. Europe will resist bigtime until they build the factories in Europe and then Europeans will rush to buy the cars. I'd expect some major marketing programs linking stature and quality in the future when the global intro date approaches. The most difficult task to achieve (outside of the US, they are already very far along here) but their competitors will have a hard time fighting this off. It'll be like arm wrestling a guy who has 25-50% more body weight and power than you have.
Stopping the Japanese is like winning a game against a power pitcher with great control. You had to do it early. Lexus cleared the early innings a long time ago. Infiniti nearly failed but found a great relief pitcher in a European. How ironic that one is.
Expect Lexus to jump into the $65k+ class, and I expect the Hybrid GT/600h to float around 100K.
The new look R&T and C&D are floating is a combination last-gen 740 and 1st-gen LS.
I don't know who has seen the rear-end, but I have said it before, and will say it again. The 5-series is the best-looking car in the mid-size lux class. Not in love with the angular, stark interior, or the overcompensating nannies messin' with a ride that wasn't broke. But I hope the 5-series style does make it's way East, Far East! I wanted the GS to look like the current 5. The new GS has grown on me too.
I expect a 460, a 5liter, and a 600h, gaining 12-15k per iteration, catching 100-110k at the max. A 460 will max at $80k.
As far as "gaining share", Lexus will still sell 30-35k LS, even with a significant price increase. And the "hippy" new S-Class is trying to give Lexus help they really don't need. Success is a given for this car.
DrFill
Don't expect many to agree with you here. The 5-series is a disjointed eyesore to me.
I personally think that the 5-series looks better than the STS, M35/45, and S-Type but not as good lookin as the GS or A6.
"I don't see them ever going to a Rolls level and you hardly need that"
They can't. The weird thing about Rolls and Bentley is that even if they didn't revise their cars for ten years and other superlux makers came out, they'd still sell. You know why? They're named Rolls-Royce and Bentley. They are burned into the public's mind as unattainable and therefore, worthy of lust. Maybach? What's a Maybach? Unless you were around in the 1920's, it doesn't mean much. It takes heritage to build a car company like that..... and even Toyota can't buy that
I agree, the S-Class looks weird. Not as blatently ugly as the 7-Series, but not a good lookin car at all.
Heh, heh I see you have a new bright-eyed, bushy-tailed recruit selling Kool-Aid.
You guys are funny!
;-)
I'd hope you would add more to the debate on what you think about the posts from jblak wrt Lexus v MB/BMW/Audi.... Do you see much truth in it, or is it all about Kool-Aid-drinking Camp Lexus
“Are there any Benz or BMW takers out there? If so, you're as foolish as the rest of the German Car Idiot's out there.”
The new GS did not miss really. Rather, I'd say that it is a scheduling *problem* at Lexus to blame for the new GS. The engines designed for the new GS are the 3.5L and 4.6L, and the hybrid powerplant 450H. Unfortunately, neither of these engines were ready at launch. The 450H arrives next spring, and the 350 and 460-badged GS in the spring of 2007, or earlier (note that Japan gets the GS350 this Fall at launch). The LS is being cast, once again, as the de facto leader of the pack for the new-look Lexus, and all are being arranged (or re-arranged if you so wish) to afford the biggest bang for the next LS. The IS would do well, but it is by no means the key car for Lexus; its the LS that really starts things off, and then you start seeing the whole bunch arriving in quick succession:
GS350/460
LS600H
IS500
LS GT
etc...
circa 2007 when Lexus starts its ball rolling. The GS/IS are floor moppers for the next LS....
And they did screw up a bit, but people are still buying the GS, apparently.
The GS ultimately is what it is. Its definitely a Lexus through and through. However, there's just a little too much old GS and not enough IS300 in it. I like the GS300, but I dont like the GS430. The VDIM system needs an off switch, and Lexus needs to fix the pointless electronic active steering and brakes before I could consider it. A GS350 AWD, unfortunately for Acura, will make life for the RL that much harder. The GS is good, but this round definitely goes to Infiniti.
I dont think Infiniti can beat the '07 LS though. They've been trying for 15 years, and they've failed for all 15. Infiniti can sell a more expensive car than Acura, but there's no way they can make an $80K car and expect anyone to actually buy one (ask VW how well their experiment went). I know I certainly wouldnt want to be the guy in charge of the '07 Q. Is it wierd that there is currently zero real info about the car?
Not so, Vvti was added much more recently than 15 years ago.
1. The Germans did better in the latest JP Power, perhaps getting their quality problems under control.
2. Is it so easy for Lexus to produce performance car as you guys think? It will be Toyota's initial effort against the like of Ferrari and Porsche. I predict Toy will find success in this segment as elusive as in F1. And remember they reportedly spend more money than anyone else in F1, and that doesn't guarantee success.
3. Nissan GTR probably will have more success than LF-A, partly because it's the latest in Japan's most legendary line. LF-A has no heritage.
4. Lexus will not find success in other countries as easily as US. Take Britain, it's been there for years, and yet its sales are a fraction of Audi and BMW. It will be even rougher in the continent.
5. Case in point: the Aussie car magazine Wheels has this startling statistic. The current LS had some initial success but sales took a nose dive to 187 in entire 2004. Don't trust me, look it up in latest Wheels!
6. Wheels reviews new GS and has this pungent remark: 'Does Lexus want drivers, or does it just want people who want peace and quiet?' If you read British car mags, that's pretty much their unanimous opinion. So for the formula for US success might not translate very well in the rest of the world. BTW, if you read between the lines, that's also the opinion of many American publications.
7. The challenger to Ferrari and Porsche better want drivers.
Thanks for sparing me the effort. Couldn't have said it better myself... a Lexus through and through... exactly what a performance buyer doesn't want. You can't go halfway with performance, guys. Lexus has BMW in their sights? They won't get many BMW buyers that way. The BMW boys are hovering around the IS thread, can't wait to drive it. If it's a halfway car, they'll head for the hills.
BTW it seems the new M came out of the gate pretty good and it still hasn't hit home. So, not only will you need performance, you'll need marketing and time. You don't just say... we have money and we'll do performance. Reminds me of the rich kid who shows up to the stickball game with a ton of cool equiment but can't hit a lick.
Ljflx... yes, if you can forget SUVs for a minute (but not longer than that) the LS is Lexus, the halo car, the success story. Take note, it's a luxury car and many of you guys are on record as luxury lovers, not performance lovers.
Mariner7... good post!
PS - Sports cars are my favorite segment so as far as I'm concerned you can't have enough of them. If I am wrong you can come back here, quote me and rub it in my face... the LF-A is going to fail bigtime. Talk about having to prove yourself. Classic example of the rich kid I mentioned above. Do you guys realize how much iron and heritage this thing is going up against? Keep an eye on the IS, that could be the newest torchbearer until the next LS gets here. I said COULD BE!
;-)
-With the LS we also need to consider what they are shooting for. With at least the LS460 and LS600h it appears to me that luxury will still be emphasized. Here is what Kevin said in post 317:
Many of you in this forum seem to be confused as to whether or not the LS600h sedan would produce either 460 horsepower as CarMode magazine stated or 500 horsepower as some other magazine claimed. What I can tell you that CarMode’s predictions are very close to the engine ratings that Nobutaka and his engineers have being reported in our engine test lab. Although this might disappoint many of you whom want the LS600h in achieving 500 horsepower because the technology that is currently available to us can easily tune this engine to achieve 500 horsepower. However please remember by doing so, it would sacrifice a lot of it’s stability and smoothness of the engine itself and this would prevent a lot of buyers to purchase the LS sedan if they find out their sedan are not as smooth and stable as the original Celsoir processes. Furthermore you must also remember a sedan with 460 or 470 horsepower was not a slow sedan either and with the engine’s powerful torque curve plus a new 7-speed transmission, I don’t see there’s a reason why this sedan would not outrun the Mercedes S 600 or BMW 760 LI on the road.
If they produce an LS GT, which at this point is still speculation, then we'll have to see what that is like when it appears.
There's a startling article on the future of the auto industry in current Automobile. In 2000, the 3 biggest markets are US/Japan/Germany. In 2030, the 3 biggest will be China/India/US, in that order. Something tells me Chinese and Indian consumers will prefer their home teams and not let the foreigners rule over them. It's consumers in China and India who will determine losers and winners among today's auto companies really!
Regarding LF-A. Porsche and Ferrari ruled the auto sports world 30 years ago, and that duopoly will be there 30 years from now. Despite the best efforts of Audi (R9, Lambo), MB (SLR), Toyota (LF-A), Nissan (GTR). Audi's effort is pretty credible though, it dominated Le Mans for quite a while. If there's a third member to the governing elite, it's BMW. Sports cars require heritage, so no Chinese or Indian here. But don't be surprised if Porsche or Ferrari falls into their hands!
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I doubt Indian consumer's will prefer their home team car makers over the foreign makes if their cars are inferior. Already the biggest carmaker in India is a joint venture between Suzuki and a Indian company. The suzuki cars capture close to 50% of the consumer market. General Motors and Ford are also big sellers. GM sells many Isuzu designed vehicles as Chevy models over there. As well as Opel's are sold there. And recently, Honda and Toyota are making big inroads. The only strong homegrown Indian Automaker is Tata, which is doing quite well and even imports cars to parts of Europe these days. From experience though, Indian culture loves American stuff. They devour our music, movies, clothing brands, etc. I think if anything, GM, Toyota, Ford & Tata will end up being the top 4 brands. China on the otherhand, is alot more protectionist, and they will probably over the long term prefer their homegrown brands, but so far foreign carmakers like GM, Toyota, VW, & BMW are doing quite well.
Sorry, slow to get back as I had not heard of Ford and a Toroidal CVT trany. I cannot find any mention of it for production though - so maybe your engineering friend knows more than I do on that score. A web search seems to show them working on a full-toroidal IVT with a company called Torotrak - smaller, very fuel efficient and with geared neutral (neat). But the question still remains, has the LS got an expensive toroidal CVT or an 8-speed cog automatic trany?
I still have my doubts about the CVT/IVT possibility, but I also think a normal 8-speed might be a busy shifter - which are you hoping for?