Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

callmedrfill · February 2005

I'd make the LS460 SWB ($64,995)

   Den, the LS500 LWB. ($79,995)

   Then the LS460h LWB. ($84,995)

   That's it.

   DrFill

oac · February 2005

For the interpretation of the link, and the tidbits from the japanese Automotive Forum. Like syswei said, pls keep us updated on whatever else you find out about the Lexus releases. Surely appreciated.

I am looking forward to the LS460, which I can speculate to be in the 340bhp-ish range. The 5L GT has been said to be the V12-like performer but with a V6 fuel economy, at ~500bhp total output. That should do well going against the S600. But I don't see a direct competitor against the S500. Would that be the LS460 LWB, or the LS500 SWB ?

designman · February 2005

Yeah, that's a Photoshop SKETCH from someone with a sense of refinement. If the next LS looks something like that I'd buy it on the spot. Expect the same BS direction that BMW and Mercedes are pursuing.

oac · February 2005

Designman: we have you on record now ! The next LS will be close to that sketch. How do I know ? Cos Lexus execs have been saying how much evolutionary the new LS will be, as it did in 1989. Now, I am hoping its not just BS from Denny and his cohorts....

BUT, if the new LS is anything close to that picture, the Germans will have a lot to worry about.

k_mitsui · February 2005

I do apologize my slow reply due to timezone difference between Japan and America and I am amazed the amount of since I left the forum by last night!!! Since some of the problems people posted in this forum are very interesting and I might not be able to answer all of them since my knowledge in some areas about the LS are quite limited. So instead I have translated and forwarded your messages to Yomiuri and Carmode automotive forum, where some of our best experts regarding this topic would assess and respond in Japanese to all your concerns as soon as they respond all the remaining post left in the forum.

Nevertheless, I am also trying to get an access to the recent carmode magazine that was published on Jan 28, which has a coverage for the LS500 sedan both the traditional and GT version. Because this issue has being out of stock a day after its release, many of us have to wait a week or two to get a copy directly from the publisher and hopefully my copy by tomorrow morning as they promise me in the e-mail.

Please note that you might need to enlarge and focus it on your computer and youu would see the LS500 was marked in red ink on the coverpage

Note: Because of issue of copyright, the name it L500 used in the publication is actually to LS 500, hope you will understand

Here's the link: which lead you to the cover page of the issue:

http://www.carmode.net/carmode/eshop/magazine/car/ct/cartop.html

Okay I have to go for lunch right now, and hope to see you all soon!

Ken

ljflx · February 2005

Thanks for your insights. I'm curious as to how hot Lexus is becoming in Japan and Asia vs. the other luxury nameplates. Also what happens to Toyota's version of the current LS430 (Celsior, I believe) during the transition period when the Lexus brand comes to market.

The news I had heard on the LS was that the short wheel base car would be the LS450 (now it seems LS460) and it would have a hybrid option and an LS500 would be the long wheel base car and with it comes a hybrid version that competes with MB's S600 (this is the car OAC was referring to with fabulous HP and mileage). I didn't know how they would offer their tuned car versions of any of these though.

bobcatman · February 2005

That's not the next LS, it's the Toyota Crown shown here months back and other sites. The AutoSpies (actually one guy) are bunch of tabloid amateurs of the auto world. That car's a carbon copy of the Crown.

http://toyota.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/crownroyal/exterior/i- - mages/ex02_svg.jpg

syswei · February 2005

from consumerguide: "a redesigned LS is due for 2007 to cap a top-to-bottom makeover for all Lexus sedans...the 460 is expected to feature a new Vehicle Dynamic Management system (VDM) that integrates antiskid/traction control with Lexus's first "by-wire" antilock brakes...Word is that overall length is little changed, but that wheelbase, height and maybe width show slight gains. All-wheel drive may be available, perhaps standard."

full article http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/- 38166

sis2 · February 2005

Can anyone knowledgeable about the market answer this please. Would it make sense (depreciation effect) to buy a new 2005 Lexus LS430, when the redesign is approaching in '07? I had intended to buy an '05 in March, but now I'm reconsidering. Maybe I should buy an '03 and trade it in Dec '07???

callmedrfill · February 2005

Score a 2-year lease, then you'll be out with the '07 out only 3 months or so, you can get one south of sticker.

DrFill

samnoe · February 2005

Or make it for a 3-year lease. It's a good idea to wait for the second year of a totally redesigned vehicle, no matter if it's a Kia or a Lexus. First year cars usually have some bugs.

callmedrfill · February 2005

You actually HEARD OF a bug in a Lexus LS?

DrFill

rcf8000 · February 2005

Re: Lexus bugs. I bought the RX300, LS430, and SC430 when they first came out. In each case the car was one of the first delivered in the US. Only the RX had any bugs, and they were minor. Lexus/Toyota is the only manufacturer that I would trust enough to buy a first-year car sight unseen.

callmedrfill · February 2005

I had a point there....somewhere....

DrFill

chris65amg · February 2005

Hmmm..... so what's the model lineup going to be for the LS? I'm a little lost.

k_mitsui · March 2005

Wow, this forum is very silent after we begin our discussion on the LS sedan since last month and the similar situation did also happened in Japanese forums as well because everyone is waiting for the LS prototype before we can say anything certain on what might this sedan would carry...Even the editors that I have sent e-mail to last month also told me to wait until May before he can give me any definite answers. But nevertheless, I would give you some info as to how would the LS sedan would set up in America
1. We now know that in comparison to Japanese models, America would have a much fewer choices in terms of wheel-base selection since you guys don't have to face a lot of problems in parking very tight parking lots nor very narrow roads with a lot of people crossing in Japan. But of course there a lot of reasons other than these differences (which I don't know) that make Toyota don't bring too many model types to America.
So the most likely case on how LS would set up in America:
-LS460 a choice of short and long wheel base
-LS500 only long wheel base
and
-the hybrid models would have the long wheel base version ONLY
2. In terms of the engine displacement, the only new changes that we have make is that the LS500 hybrid would turn into LS550h instead. Why this is so? Well because apparently there are increasing evidence that Toyota is trying to put a hybrid drive on the 4.6 liter engine and Toyota would have no problems (in terms of the technology available) to increase (with the hybrid drive) it's power output that is similar to the 5.5 liter engine. Adding to the weight reduction measures taken by Toyota, it should have the similar performance as the S600 sedan.
So is the LS550h would be the most expensive one in the line? Yes and you would expect this car would carry the most advanced technology that is currently available. However this car would expect to carry it's price tag at around 9.3-9.5 million yen (which is about 93-95 thousand US dollars) and since I am not sure America is ready to pay that much for a Toyota, I am quite question if this car would anyway sell into the America market.
3. And finally the LS450h is not out of the plans in Toyota proposal since it would share this powerplant with the upcoming GS hybrid sedan. But the big question the following? Would this hybrid model ever arrives to the America market? From my thinking since you people don't have to pay very expensive and hefty license fees (which is by the way is dependent on the amount of (gas) displacement you have in the engine) in Japan and most of you like large and powerful cars. Therefore I would guess it's not likely this model would arrive into America anytime soon. But may-be my predication is incorrect.
Before I close this message, I am quite amazed (after days on looking at other Toyota, Nissan and Lexus forums) on the amount of information and kinds of imaginative ideas that is being discussed on all the upcoming sedans coming from Japan. Although I dont often participate the forums available in edmunds because of my very busy work schedule where the only time I can really spend some time to read restrict to only on Saturdays and Sundays (although I respond a few during my work, but most of them are very brief). But nevertheless you people leaves me a strong impression that many of you have a great sense of appreciation and on Japanese sedans and we are grateful for you continue support to our Japanese auto industry
Ken

syswei · March 2005

Thank you for the info, k_mitsui! Many of us here are really looking forward to the next LS, particularly in hybrid form.

nvbanker · March 2005

Thank you for your information Ken. It is very kind of you to take the time to respond to us. I think your assumptions may be correct - that Americans are adopting the Hybrid drive technology eagerly, but at prices in the $95,000 range, the car will have to look spectacular as well as be remarkable. Where Lexus as been somewhat lacking to those who seem to prefer Mercedes (I am not one of them), has been in the style department of the exterior, and the advantage it has had has been in the quality and reliability, and the price advantage. If the price advantage goes away, the style advantage needs to come up to par with the S-class to win over the market in my opinion. I think the LS-400 was a beautiful car. The LS-430 seems to look shorter and less stately than its grandfather did, while the S-Class maintains the look of superiority that price commands.

I believe Lexus/Toyota builds a much finer car, especially for the money. If anybody can make the Hybrid Drive work, Toyoda will do it. Please keep us informed as your schedule will allow.

Howard

chris65amg · March 2005

Thanks a bunch.
All of the LS's have been good cars, so I have no doubt that that Lexus will pull off a good one with the next LS. I really hope that they don't change the formula too much, because I would pick an LS (95k or not) over an S600. I think that the LS hybrid would have to be a LS550h because if there's going to be a GS450h, then the price difference between the two wouldn't be justified. I've had one burning question about the Lexus hybrids....

Are they full hybrids, like the Prius, or mild hybrids like the Accord? (I doubt they're American hybrids like the Silverado...)

If the LSxxxh is a full hybrid, it would be very easy to get a large amount of torque out of the electric motor right at low RPMs. If it is hooked to a V-8, it would easily be able to rocket past an S600 or a 760iL, because of the added low-end that the battery gives. I just hope that the engine is stronger than the current ones, because it would be nice to see a 375 bhp+ LS.

If the LS is a mild hybrid, than they would need a stronger engine in it. Also, I love the way a full hybrid gets better city mileage. It tickles me pink.

Just rambling,
Chris

callmedrfill · March 2005

GM and Honda make them "Mild"

Especially with Lexus Execs talk of making hybrids more performance-oriented to broaden appeal.

I fully expect the 550h for the LS, and if the come in at a slight discount ($89k), will have no problem selling 5k units a year against the $130k S600!

The LS and GS will NOT share the same hybrid engine displacement.

I hope the LS pricing moves as follows:

LS460: $59k (Luxury Pkg cost $12k)
LS460LWB: $64k
LS500LWB: $79k (Luxury Pkg STD.)
LS550h: $89k ($95-97k with all options)

DrFill

ljflx · March 2005

From what I've been told the premium car is gone in 2007 and the new car price will initialize at $65k up to $75K and be 350HP or more. The hybrid version of the LS460 will be in the $75K-$85K range and the super LS will be in the $100-110K range. Prices naturally are also tied to the strength/weakness of the dollar in the coming 12 months. It seems they will build that LF-A and put a V10 in it and if that is the case than a V10 hybrid with over 600HP will go into the super LS. Not sure where they are going with LWB but the super LS will have only that and the other two model versions may option out either way. But my feeling is they will go more LWB and the SWB will only be available on the LS460. Lexus market research shows that the $100K+ prices will be no problem on Lexus special edition cars. I was also told the LX will go to $70K+ and the next GX will get a tad bigger. Everything is getting hybrid options in the new revamped models that will be coming out.

chris65amg · March 2005

I dunno about 600 hp. I mean, 400 is nice, but I always thought that the 290 was enough for the LS. I really don't want to see a gigantic price jump, but I guess it'll have to happen.

ljflx · March 2005

There really is only a modest price jump and it's tied to exchange rates mainly. $62-72k moves to $65-75K, but you get a lot more car. If the dollar strengthens those prices may be lowered a bit. A 600HP cars is for brand halo effect, not for 90% of the buyers. MB sells abot 1200-1500 S600's annually in the US. The 290 is enough for the LS but if competition ups HP as they will, than Lexus will have to as well. That's the same thing as adding more volume to the empty air in a box of cereal. Look at how far Audi has lagged for resisting the SUV. You have to go with the flow - that's business.

callmedrfill · March 2005

The LS has not, is not, and will not be a powerhouse. It will not have 600 HP, even in Hybrid form.

The LS isn't here to will drag races. Not here to win spec matches. Not here to be tuned to the hilt.

The Germans do that well. Where has it got them?

The LS might be the least powerful car in it's class. Where has that gotten it?

The LS Hybrid MIGHT get to 400HP. MAYBE. Highly UNLIKELY, but still possible, if only to be perceived as a pure competitor to 760il and S600.

The LS is designed to be as fast as a 740 (check), while being a better luxury car than the S500 (check Luxury Pkg.), while being cheaper, better built and more efficient than either.

You're testosterone is appreciated, but misplaced.

The LS will not be the most powerful Lexus. It isn't the strongest now! Now when it was redesigned 2001.

But it will be the best luxury car in the world.

You don't need 600Hp to do that. It has less than half that now, and Mission Accomplished!!

DrFill

ljflx · March 2005

Besides Lexus themselves said they would have a 600HP hybrid that would get 40+ mpg a year or so ago. It was quoted in a number of auto mags. I also think you are badly misreading Lexus intentions. I can't fault your logic one bit but their direction, based on new styling, exec comments, the LF (Lexus Finesse) design team being headed by an Italian etc are crystal clear. They are definitely going the higher HP route and the higher performance route with flashier cars. Danny Clements has said it a number of times now. Now if they are going to a 350V8, you're saying they won't go over 400HP in hybrid form? No way. They will go at least to 425, if not 450HP as they have said all along power and performance, not gas mileage will be the first priority. And that is not the car they are putting up against the S600. (Toyota will go the mileage, less HP route.) Their super LS is and it will go much higher - 550HP with a more powerful V8 hybrid, 600HP if they use the V10. Will it spoil the great ride you have now - I doubt it. They won't go against their trademark but with worldwide branding they are going for big halo making headlines. Look I've been driving nothing but the Lexus LS since 95 and Lexus suvs for my secondary car. In 2001-04 with added driving needs I had two LS cars plus an LX470. You don't need to tell me about the LS or Lexus greatness.

jgo03 · March 2005

I have been following this chat board closely and find it very informative. Does anybody know whether the redesigned LS will be AWD?

ljflx · March 2005

Very likely that most Lexus vehicles will have AWD options in the future. Supposedly the LS will have it available in 2007.

chris65amg · March 2005

"""Besides Lexus themselves said they would have a 600HP hybrid that would get 40+ mpg a year or so ago. It was quoted in a number of auto mags. I also think you are badly misreading Lexus intentions. I can't fault your logic one bit but their direction, based on new styling, exec comments, the LF (Lexus Finesse) design team being headed by an Italian etc are crystal clear. They are definitely going the higher HP route and the higher performance route with flashier cars. Danny Clements has said it a number of times now. Now if they are going to a 350V8, you're saying they won't go over 400HP in hybrid form? No way. They will go at least to 425, if not 450HP as they have said all along power and performance, not gas mileage will be the first priority. And that is not the car they are putting up against the S600. (Toyota will go the mileage, less HP route.) Their super LS is and it will go much higher - 550HP with a more powerful V8 hybrid, 600HP if they use the V10. Will it spoil the great ride you have now - I doubt it. They won't go against their trademark but with worldwide branding they are going for big halo making headlines. Look I've been driving nothing but the Lexus LS since 95 and Lexus suvs for my secondary car. In 2001-04 with added driving needs I had two LS cars plus an LX470. You don't need to tell me about the LS or Lexus greatness. """

Dealers will tell you anything to get you impressed. Trust me. I can't say that I relish the thought of a 600 hp LS, just because the LS hasn't conformed to Benz and BMW at all. I can't see them wanting a halo car in a large sedan like the LS when they could easily make an SL65AMG (woot woot) killer instead. There's a big difference between the two. The LS is a flagship. It holds the torch for Lexus, and is supposed to embody their ideals. Putting 600 hp in a car makes it a halo, which would turn off a lot of people looking at the LS hybrid as a practical option. As much as I like the S65SMG, wouldn't you rather go for an SL65AMG?? (Or an SLR McLaren, while we're on the subject). Also, if the LS V-10 hybrid has more hp than this LF whateveryacallit V-10, that would defeat the purpose of the LF. Not saying that you're wrong.... but I would expect somewhere in the mid-400's for the LS hybrid, to compete with the 760i and the SL600. Just my 2 cents.

merc1 · March 2005

That 600hp talk was what the magazines were guessing Lexus would do based on their next generation V8 and the anticipated hybrid drive system being an updated version of what they have now. Lexus never, ever officially stated anything about a 600hp LS, they haven't even said what the engine or hp will be in this sports car concept either. I think its just wishful thinking if you think Lexus will use a V10 in anything other than that sports car concept, even that won't happen if F1 rules change to V8 engines. The sports concept was done to mirror Toyota's involvement in F1.

Style wise, nothing Italian has yet emerged from Lexus, and the guy you're talking about is basically in a consulting role, not their design chief. . The GS and IS are Japanese in design, ditto for the sports car concept. I mean look at that front end! The next LS is the one to watch for Italian design cues, if the home office in Toyoda City doesn't change it too much. They might nail it with the LS if they guy really gets total control over the project.

M

oac · March 2005

Interesting discussion here.....

Didn't Danny Clements claim that Lexus would build a super-Lexus with "a V-12 like performance with a V-6 like fuel economy" ? I'd look for that quote if only to prove that a Lexus exec has come real close to naming an HP rating for one of the new LS trims coming in the future.

While it is difficult to imagine a 600HP LS anything, but with hybrid and a challenge to the S600 to broaden the Lexus model line-up, I can well imagine a 550h with an output in the mid-500hp range. With better gas mileage than the S600, that should be more than capable of taking on the highest of the MB class.

"The GS and IS are Japanese in design, ditto for the sports car concept. I mean look at that front end! The next LS is the one to watch for Italian design cues..."

I disagree. The LF concepts were penned by the Italian exec formerly of Ferrari, and he's had influence on BOTH the new GS and IS. WRT the LS, an MY2007 LS which is only 18 mnths away to dealership showrooms should already be way past the drawing board by now. To me what is in doubt is which styling direction the new LS will take: a bigger brother to the GS or to the IS ?????

callmedrfill · March 2005

The way I see it, a GS450h will be more performance-biased, as Clements has said previously, and will be significantly more powerful than the 400h, for example. But would still be more efficient than the GS430 V8.

This is all speculation (place your bets!), but I'd say the 450h will be both more powerful than the upcoming GS460, and more efficient. Something like 360-370HP, while getting 26/22 EPA.

The LS would have to go beyond that, but with the LS, Lexus wants to showcase how efficient the LS is, while still being plenty powerful.

I'd say the LS will hover around 400-425HP with economy over 30MPG conmbined. Underpromise, overdeliver (More like 4-cyl economy)!

The weight of the new larger LS is a mitigating factor. But with the newer, improved batteries and refinements in the Synergy system coming almost on a daily basis, this is where the LS is going.

Now the LFA may turn into a test pony for something the NEXT LS (after 2007 gen) will build on! I can see that model, selling over $100k, using the 5.0 V-10, being badged the LF550h, doing 0-60 in the 3.9-4.2 range, while getting 25MPG (2-3 times what exotics usually get), while coddling like a sporty Lexus.

I just don't believe the LS will become this Superpowerhouse.

Maybe in the following generation.

DrFill

ljflx · March 2005

Let's get real here folks. A V6 non hybrid Avalon is now at 270HP, knocking on the LS430's 290HP door. You folks act like it is unpure or something for Lexus to have a high HP fleet leading sedan. They will still make the LS in non - hybrid form in lower HP, probably 350 but maybe as low as 325-330. They are not taking that car away from anyone - just broadening its market size. But they sure as hell are not staying at 290 or barely nudging it over 300HP with more powerful V8's being developed right now and hybrids that they've said everywhere will be tweaked to power and performance over efficiency. Common sense 101 - why would they and Toyota do the same thing?? They are going for total differentiation from Toyota which is also why they went the whole LF route in the first place. Lexus will go performance - Toyota will go efficiency - bank on it. Otherwise the rest of the world will not see the true value/prestige of the Lexus name.

The info I got was not from any salesman. I have no intention of disclosing names but suffice it to say it goes way higher than that.

Oac - thanks again. Clements mentioned this several times and quotes were in the mags and on website announcements. It was'nt any mags speculation.

callmedrfill - If the LF-A is a test pony - you think the LS will wait for its next gen car after the coming one - 8+ years from now to bring out an S600 competitor. You can believe that if you want - but I think I'll follow my own instincts and knowledge here. That car will be a low volume halo effect car not a staple car. It's needed for worldwide clout and that need is in 2007. The base gas engine and the hybrid variant of it - probably a 425-450 HP car - will be the cars that make the big money.

Lastly - the LS is the car that defines Lexus and created its success. They aren't leading with any other car but that one when they go worldwide. That's why it's coming in 2007 in the first place.

ljflx · March 2005

I'd paste it but they don't always like that around gere. So in link - see last paragraph.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_09/b3922126_mz017.htm

callmedrfill · March 2005

Doesn't matter anyway. What's happening in Europe has NO relevance to the States product line. It MIGHT be a training ground for cars that MAY come here in the future, but don't expect a short turnaround.

Follow me.

The 1990 LS had how much power?

Ok. And the '95?

Uh-huh. And the '01?

Yeah. Now we are at 2005 and we have how much?

Now, you are saying the LS will become how powerful in what amount of time?

For what purpose?

Is it here to match S-Class AMGs? It's already 300HP behind. What's the point?

Also don't forget the Law of Diminishing Returns.

Is Lexus building LS for 0-60 times? Quarters?

How much faster is a 600HP sedan two-ton sedan over a 400HP two-ton sedan? .5 seconds?

Lexus can tune a hybrid for power, efficiency, or both. Which do you think Lexus will chose?

Remember, they will only build one Hybrid for this generation.

Call me pragmatic, but Lexus will not see the value in going much over 400HP in the LS. At least in the near future. They will see the value of 30MPG or more, ESPECIALLY with the Oil prices rising!

The LFA is a different discussion.

DrFill

merc1 · March 2005

I can't believe what I'm seeing here. Dissension in the ranks.

ljflx,

I have to ask if you actually read what Oac or that article said? Oac said that he speculated on a 600hp LS, not anything about Lexus officially announcing anything. Its all speculation at this point. The article says absolutely nothing about a 600hp LS. Nothing. The bottom line is that at no time has Lexus ever officially said anything about a 600hp LS or a V10.

Just because Lexus' head guy said something about V12 performance doesn't mean the next LS will have 600hp. You can get V12 performance with less hp if you focus on weight, aerodynamics and other factors.

I know you know the business end, but here you're not seeing the total picture. Allow me, the sports car concept is a tribute to Toyota's F1 efforts, you know racing stuff. If F1 is changed to V8s from V10s then Lexus has already stated for a fact that a V8 will be used in line with whatever F1 is doing at the time. A 600hp V8 hybrid will be at the point of diminishing returns; in short it will probably use too much fuel, defeating the purpose of being a hybrid in the first place. If the LS stays at the 4000lb level, 600hp will make the car very fast indeed, faster than most Lexus buyers would ever care about.

Oac,

"The LF concepts were penned by the Italian exec formerly of Ferrari, and he's had influence on BOTH the new GS and IS.

You'll have to prove the first part of this with a link that says just that. A Ferrari executive that was a stylist is one thing (not many if any of those) and that he now works for Lexus is even further out there. If there is any truth to this then he must have gone like totally blind because none of Lexus' concepts are in the same universe with any Ferrari on looks, especially that Lexus sports car concept.

callmedrfill,

You and I agreeing is even scarier.

M

ljflx · March 2005

The link is business week and it says they are building a $100K LS for 2007 per Danny Clements. I guess they are building one at 425HP - sure.

merc1 - it's so easy to read the tea leaves about what is coming. Some here don't seem to realize that Lexus is moving to phase 2. They are going worldwide with a worldwide strategy not a US strategy. The latter won't work outside of NA. So expect diesels, V12's or V-12 equivalents, multiple diesel and gas hybrids, greater performance, a performance arm ala AMG etc etc. We are talking about the most powerful, most profitable and most cash rich car company in the world here - by a large margin. When they do things they do them large scale. Yes - if the head of a business operation says something is going to happen like that within 18 months - which is what Clements said - you can bet your life it is going to happen. He is head of their US ops and a high level group VP of Toyota. People like that don't say things that are going to be retracted and they don't say things that aren't done deals. The LF-A is not a done deal, but is most likely coming. The same source that told me about the LWB car coming in 2007 - back in 2002 - is the one that told me a 550HP or 600HP car is due in 2007 - in limited supply of course. I doubt very many people here realize that a V12 $85-90K+ LS just missed hitting our shores in 2001. What everyone is still silent on is the HPX and that is a car I'm hoping they build a lot more than a V12 equiv LS.

callmedrfill - I hear your logic and if Lexus wasn't going with worldwide branding it might be right. But the press announcements about a $100K LS, a car like the LF-A, a performance arm, a diesel for the IS are all clear indications where Lexus is going.

callmedrfill · March 2005

They probably will build a $100k (or close) LS as a Hybrid.

Doesn't mean it will have 600HP, though.

LWB, super efficient, high performance.

But 600HP is unnecessary, borderline wasteful, when that energy can net 10-15MPG instead.

When they add 300HP to one model, in one generation, that will be quite a corporate takeover! Not sold on that at all.

The HPX was very impressive, having seen it up close. Could be a replacement for the RX or GX!

Fingers crossed!

Merc

That's why I'm here, to scare the populace with scary logic.

DrFill

ljflx · March 2005

We'll see. I'll stick to my guns and say a 550-600HP car, that will represent less than .5% of US sales will be made as a pure halo car. They won't do that car at anything but a high HP engine IMO. I can't even begin to imagine that.

The GX and RX are so successful - 130-140K units will sell in 2005, that it is impossible to think Lexus would ever cancel either one of them. I think the HPX is purely additive for both car and segment. What I think you'll see is the LX get more full sized, the GX slide closer to the current LX size and the HPX (if they build it) become a new class at about the size of the current GX. They'll never mess with the RX except to make it more and more upscale.

ryousuke · March 2005

I highly doubt there will be a lexus with 600hp. I heard (dont remember where exactly), that Toyota (lexus) is going for global 15, 15% of global sales. what does this have to do with anything? well the senior execs at toyota think that all the new guys might get too gung ho, and produce something stupid. the senior execs are afraid of cockiness... they cited volkswagen going out and creating their luxury car, a stupid move, and they cited many other examples (im a forgetful guy ok?? forgive me)... the phaeton i think....the seniors want toyota and lexus to stay practical and keep their ideals other than styling elements, which are going through changes (some good, some bad) ... 600hp is NOT practical

ljflx · March 2005

QAC - you and I must really need to learn how to read again because everything I read and hear firsthand from people in the know says they are going the performance route but we must be the only ones who see it or get it. I'm also amazed that people misread a car that will sell 1500-2000 units or about five tenths of 1% of US Lexus units sales as if every car they make will be super HP. We are talking about the LS here - the car that helped push more powerful V8's back to the forefront in 1990.

Toyota execs criticizing VW is way out of step with their character. Where did you read that?

chris65amg · March 2005

I really think that when they said performance of a V-12, they meant 475-550 hp. Most V-12s slot in somewhere in there.

oac · March 2005

Ljflx:

I think what is going on is due in large part to a dearth of info on the new LS. Lexus certainly knows how to put the screws into all of their fans with little to NO information to go by.

According to the Business Week article you posted earlier, Denny claimed a car in the $100K price range. That car, coupled with a hybrid may be in the range you mentioned , i.e., 450-550hp or thereabouts. IMO, it makes sense for a halo low-production super-brute car, if Lexus wants to play in the rarefied air of the S600/S55. I definitely will be a fan of Lexus doing this.

Me personally, I want to see a SWB LS460 with power in the mid-300hp (say 340-350hp), priced in the mid-$60K for a lightly loaded trim. Maybe its wishful thinking, but I do not plan to pay $70K, unless that car just blows me away....

merc1 · March 2005

I still say that you're too stuck on the business side. Tea leaves aren't anything official, which was the first statement. All the money in the world doesn't mean a hit every time (the old GS and IS prove this), not even for Toyota. You've got to learn to seperate the two and look at the cars. My point about a 600hp car still stands, nobody has said anything like that not Clements or anyone else from Lexus. Clements didn't give any specifics and you seem to be the only one that has them, especially hp ratings. He didn't say anything other than V12 performance, so there is nothing for him to retract if the next LS doens't top out at 600hp. You're getting too hyped about financials and then trying to apply it to hp ratings. You missed the point of what he stated. To get Mercedes/BMW V12 like performance from a much lighter car like the LS it wouldn't require 600hp, not even 550hp if they keep the car close to the LS' current weight. A point lost in all this babble about Toyota's financial this and market that. A 600hp car would defeat the purpose of having a hybrid in the first place and wouldn't appear very green to anyone.

A LWB LS has been in the press for years and years, even before the current LS appeared, so thats hardly news.

A dealer will tell you anything!

M

oac · March 2005

That *proposed* 600hp is supposedly for the hybrid engine, based on a new 5L motor in a LWB LS550h. And I guess the forecasted HP rating on this car may have come from an expected 400+hp motor and an additional 100+hp from the battery(ies).

Maybe it is me, but I think your tone is a little hash on this point against Len. Relax, Merc1. Soon enough, we'll know for sure what's in the bag from Lexus....

merc1 · March 2005

"Maybe it is me, but I think your tone is a little hash on this point against Len. Relax, Merc1. Soon enough, we'll know for sure what's in the bag from Lexus....

Not at all I just thinks its silly to pass off speculation as "facts".

M

ryousuke · March 2005

first things first...: we should probably stop going back and forth about this high power stuff... we should wait till that guy from japan gives us an update: it seems his sources are the most informative and correct; Toyota is based in Japan anyways.
as i said.. if i remember where i read or probably heard that, i'll try and get you ppl a copy... it would make much more sense if i could find one (sorry about the lack of direct proof). maybei made a mistake somewhere in there, but the main point is, Toyota doesnt wanna get cocky and do something stupid... maybe Clements is one of those ppl the senior execs are worried about :P.... as for toyota criticizing VW, they were just giving an example (view it as criticizing if you want)... if you think about it, the phaeton (or whatever that luxury car is called) is a complete failure... many people knew it would be. there were a few other examples, with the American BIG 3... sorry for making you read this long, but i probably heard it on one of the canadian news channels... it might be on "The Toronto Star's wheels section", but if it is, i missed it when I double checked.
however i can give ONE VERY good reason why they will not make anything super high powered and stupid: fuel prices... i mean, i dont think rich guys really want to spend too much money on fuel. One of Lexus' selling point has probably been fuel economy, and i dont think Lexus wants to lose that. And even if it's a high powered gas/hybrid combo, the hybrid will not be enough to compensate for the gas engine; inevitably, the gas engine will HAVE to produce more power than the hybrid, which means heavy fuel consumption (although probably better than an S600)

nvbanker · March 2005

So, what does an LS-430 get you in realistic MPG in town?

syswei · March 2005

From an email I received from autoreport.net:

"Lexuses new large sedan will debut with a new 4.6 L V8 engine that will be added later to the GS series. Recent trademark filings confirm reports that the big Lexus will at last gain a lwb version (reportedly 6" longer) to better match European rivals such as the 750Li and A8L. Standard model in all markets will be the LS460, with a hybrid LS600h offered in Europe and lwb LS460L and LS600hL offered in North America."

syswei · March 2005

My personal conjecture: the 3.5 in the Avalon is 280hp, so a 4.6 with the addition of 2 more years of technology improvements might be in the area of 385-440hp (31% more displacement gets you to 368hp, plus I'm assuming 5-20% in technical improvements). I'm guessing that the 'h' drivetrain gets you another 20-30% (based on the nomenclature, 600 vs 460 = 30%), which would put the total hp at (my guesswork only) 460-570hp. Of course they could trade away some torque, which would put the hp higher.

k_mitsui · March 2005

Hello All
At first l am very appreciated to hear all the opinions raised for the LS sedan in the past few days. I and my long term friend Mr. Yamamura himself have take a lot of time last night to examine every single of your comments and we would do our very best to try to address some of the concerns many of you have address in the forum. Because of the great length of the message itself, we decide to separate the entire message into three parts. In addition the original message we have written was in Japanese (since we would going to post this message too in the Japanese auto forum as well) and have use a computer program to translate all our words into English. So its possible there might be errors in translating the message and we do apologize for this inconvenience.
1.I have forward the concern to Mr. Saito two days ago since hes the person who first purposed the statement in the Japanese forum Both LS and GS sedan would share their hybrid platform. He state in his response that although there are many rumors in Japan that Toyota would invent another hybrid system for the 4.5 hybrid LS model. However he challenged these rumors by claiming that inventing a new hybrid drive for a sedan require a lot investment, manpower and time to make it possible. Therefore he predict the 4.5 hybrid LS should expect to have a very similar hybrid drive, but with the difference where the GS would be tuned for greater spottiness (more power and torque output) and the LS would be tuned for more comfort orientated purposes (less power, but more comfort). However he state that Toyota would definitely build a new hybrid drive and put it into the 4.6 liter gas engine.
2.Mr. Saito also state that the 4.5 hybrid model on the LS intends to sell for markets where fuel prices are high such as in place like Japan Hong Kong and places in Europe. Therefore perhaps its unlikely (in his opinion) that the 4.5 liter hybrid would make into the America market anytime soon, however I challenge his claims by stating the recent hiking of oil prices makes more consumers in the America market to seek fuel efficient cars. So would it be wise for Toyota to bring in the highly gas efficient LS model to the USA??? So people in America would have another choice instead of a traditional 4.6 gas engine?
3.All-wheel drive would be available for the LS as an option, however dont anticipate this All-Wheel Drive system would be as advanced as the SH-AWD from Honda or ATTESA from Nissan. Toyota intension on the LS sedans AWD was not intend to challenge SH-AWD or ATTESA, but they would make sure this all-wheel drive system would as you Americans refer it in a phase Would get its job done.

Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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