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Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans

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Comments

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Ferrari is developing an "insertable" system that might be a tad more palatable to the pure driving enthusiast. I'd be interested to see what everyone thinks.

    link title

    Regards,
    OW
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I dunno, it sounds like a fancy description of the system used in Honda's CR-V.

    Backwards, of course. :D
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I imagine the penalty for part-time systems is smaller, because many such AWD systems disengage completely above a certain speed,

    I know Porsche's AWD system always sends at least 5% of the power to the front wheels. I thought BMW, Volvo, Subaru, Acura had similar "minimums", but that none completely disengaged the power from the secondary wheels. As it was explained to me, without having the secondary wheels getting at least some power, the AWD system wouldn't be able to transfer power under wheel slippage as quickly. Am I mistaken?

    The Ferrari system sounds interesting, but I'm not sure how effective. Our old Trooper was 100% RWD, with a transfer shifter to put it into 4WD. However, as the Ferrari article indicates, when you are transitioning between good and poor traction conditions (i.e. mostly dry pavement with intermittent patches of snow), you would drive yourself nuts trying to shift between RWD and AWD.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The x-drive operates with a default 40/60 F/R distribution of power. However, if the rear wheels are on ice and the front wheels are on clear pavement, up to 100% of the power will transfer to the front and vice versa to the back if the fronts are on ice.

    There is no feedback to the driver as the x-drive transitions power back/front and wheel/wheel. The transitions are seamless.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The system is made to maximize the performance for Ferrari sport cars under all conditions and will work for both mid-engine cars as well as for front-engine cars.

    According to Ferrari the new system is based on the traditional RWD layout, with the second pair of wheels selectively connected via their new insertable transmission system. Instead of being an all time four-wheel drive system it should rather be viewed as a means of traction control. The all-wheel drive will only interfere when the rear wheels loose traction, and IF the option to have the all-wheel drive engaged is switched on.

    The systems will only reduce drive train efficiency when they are in use, unlike the system used by Lamborghini. Furthermore, it will ensure that the new breed of Ferraris will have superb handling characteristics in all weather condition, with minimal understeering and oversteering.

    We will see.

    Regards,
    OW
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Last I checked Lambo used a relatively simple viscous coupling AWD system. That may have changed, though.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    When setting off under normal conditions, the multiple-plate clutch re­mains locked up to a speed of approximately 20 km/h or 12 mph in the interest of maximum traction. Then the system spreads out drive power variably between the rear and front axle, depending on road conditions and the quality of the surface.

    Re-directing the flow of power within fractions of a second, the system minimizes under- or oversteer in bends: As soon as the rear end of the car pushes to the outside in a bend (oversteer), xDrive closes the mult­i­ple-plate clutch even tighter and guides even more drive power to the front wheels. This allows the rear wheels to build up more lateral force and helps to stabilize the car. Being combined with DSC stability control, the system detects any tendency to understeer right from the start and intervenes before the driver even notices any change in driving condi­tions.

    The same applies to strong understeer: As soon as the car starts push­ing out of a bend over its front wheels, this threat of understeer is de­tect­ed by information from DSC stability control and torque is reduced on the front wheels – in an extreme case feeding up to 100 per cent of the engine’s power to the rear. As a result, the driver taking, say, a ser­pentine route is able to handle a BMW equipped with xDrive with almost the same agility as a BMW with rear-wheel drive. Only when the risk of over- or understeer can no longer be compensated by variable power distribution alone will DSC Dynamic Stability Control cut in, safely stabilizing the car by intervening with the brakes.

    xDrive even compensates an abrupt change in throttle without the slightest problem: While the time-lag between pressing down the gas pe­dal and building up engine power is at least 200 milliseconds, the multi­ple-plate clutch closes or opens completely within just 100 milliseconds.

    When parking, the multiple-plate clutch opens completely and the power­train turns into a fully rear-wheel-drive concept, without the slightest dis­tor­tion in the drivetrain and the slightest influence on the car’s steering.

    On gradients with a slippery surface such as ice or snow, locking action between the front and rear axles prevents individual wheels from spin­ning. Hence, DSC is required to cut in much later than usual under far more difficult road conditions, taking back the throttle or applying the brakes on the wheels. And then, continuing the drive, the driver benefits from the same locking action significantly reducing the risk of losing longi­tudinal or side forces on individual wheels and offering the driver much safer and more agile driving characteristics.

    This division of power covers a range extending infinitely from 50:50 all the way to 0:100. So in an extreme case the front and rear axles are either to­tally disconnected or linked firmly to one another, such a firm, rigid connect­ion acting in the same way as a 100 per cent longitudinal lock on a con­ven­tional all-wheel-drive system. And since torque and engine power are re-distributed within a few milliseconds, the driver normally does not even no­tice such a change in power.

    When driving straight-ahead under normal conditions, 60 per cent of the en­gine power goes to the rear axle, 40 per cent to the front.

    Fully networked with the DSC stability control system, xDrive uses informa­tion and data coming from BMW’s Dynamic Stability Control. The yaw rate sensor, for example, determines rotational movement of the car and a steer­ing angle sensor detects the current lock of the steering wheel. Together with information on the car’s current road speed coming from the wheel sen­sors, the lateral acceleration of the vehicle, and engine data, xDrive detects the car’s current driving conditions almost immediately, with virtually no delay. This enables the system to even look ahead, distributing drive power perfectly between the front and rear wheels.

    This interaction with DSC also provides a transverse lock function, forced distribution of power to the two front and, respectively, rear wheels by means of electronic intervention in the brakes: As soon as a wheel starts to spin without transmitting power, the brakes are applied specifically on that wheel, the differential in the final drive automatically feeding more power to the opposite wheel still maintaining its grip.

    Regards,
    OW
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The same applies to strong understeer: As soon as the car starts push­ing out of a bend over its front wheels, this threat of understeer is de­tect­ed by information from DSC stability control and torque is reduced on the front wheels – in an extreme case feeding up to 100 per cent of the engine’s power to the rear. As a result, the driver taking, say, a ser­pentine route is able to handle a BMW equipped with xDrive with almost the same agility as a BMW with rear-wheel drive. Only when the risk of over- or understeer can no longer be compensated by variable power distribution alone will DSC Dynamic Stability Control cut in, safely stabilizing the car by intervening with the brakes.

    So when the front wheels are struggling to keep the car on course, you are going to dramatically transfer weight off of the wheels that need it and put it in the rear of the car? Generally speaking, its bad to unload the axle that is doing the work. That's what made the Diamond-Star vehicles annoying on the track.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    So when the front wheels are struggling to keep the car on course, you are going to dramatically transfer weight off of the wheels that need it and put it in the rear of the car? Generally speaking, its bad to unload the axle that is doing the work.

    At any given moment, x-Drive and DSC will shift/adjust drive power and reduce over- or under steer.

    Regards
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    At any given moment, x-Drive and DSC will shift/adjust drive power and reduce over- or under steer.

    Yeah that just sounds like its doing much more to correct for driver error than anything having to do with vehicle performance.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Pretty much as I expected, the intial tests and reviews of the GT2 confirm that it offers a HUGE advantage over the heavier, AWD 911 Turbo. As reported on MSN Auto:"Frankfurt Auto Show"

    The latest iteration of the venerable 911, the GT2 is the ultimate motorsports car for the street. The bi-turbo six-cylinder engine mounted at the rear pumps out 530 horsepower (390 kW) with 501 lb-ft (680 NM) of torque available as early as 2200 rpm.

    Combining that power with a curb weight of just 3,175 lbs (1,443 kg) and a low drag coefficient , the 911 GT2 can reach 62 mph (100 km/h) in a mere 3.7 seconds with a top speed of 204 mph. These impressive figures make the new GT2 the fastest and most powerful production 911 ever. In fact, around the famed Nurburgring, the GT2 now holds the record for a license-plated vehicle with the fastest time, even running faster than the (AWD, 600hp, V10) Carrera GT.

    Surprisingly, there’s a fuel economy story there as well — Porsche claims the GT2 consumes just 12.5 liters/100 km (approximately 22.6 mpg). Of course, that would mean keeping your foot off the floor, which may be difficult in a car like this.

    So, whether you are talking about ultimate performance around a track, or just want to have the most nimble feel around Rock Creek Park at 35 mph, the RWD versions of the 911 do it best. Go with the AWD 911 "4" versions for snow and ice if you want, but IMO, the Cayenne (GTS) is the better Porsche choice there.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not in ultimate weather. What if the 'ring were rained on, then which would you pick?

    Let's at least put an asterix there.

    * - under indeal conditions on a dry track.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Not in ultimate weather. What if the 'ring were rained on, then which would you pick?

    I don't buy a sports car or even sports sedan thinking, "which will give me optimal performance in a downpour"... or snowstorm, or on a gravel road, or, for that matter, on an indoor track the size of a football field.

    I'll gladly ratchet down my speed a few mph in the occasional rain I've seen with my 911 in order to best enjoy the 98%+ of the miles on my odometer that have been on dry, paved roads.

    A 3+ ton armor plated AWD 911 with solid rubber tires would provide "ultimate" performance in Iraq. Do we need another asterisk for the GT2 on that?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,789
    What does any of this have to do with:

    Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans?

    Let's please stick with the six models listed at the top of the discussion..

    I'm sure we can set up some sort of AWD vs. RWD discussion in one of the other discussion groups...

    regards,
    kyfdx
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  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    This would be an interesting comparo for me. I assume the 335 TT are now in the S4 power class but correct me if I am wrong.

    On paper the 4.2L is about 30 HP and 2 ft/lb. over the 335. I assume handling might be a tweak or 2 better since the 335xi suspension is standard fare.

    Anyone have any feedback?

    Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Without having driven either, my SWAG would have mirrored yours (i.e. giving the edge to the Audi).

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    98%+ of the miles on my odometer that have been on dry, paved roads.

    That doesn't sound "ultimate" to me at all. It sounds downright routine, actually.

    This is ultimate:

    image
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    ...in its own special way, I'll take the later. ;-)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    How 'bout this?

    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The timing is coincidental, but I just saw some pics of the Nurburgring and the one thing that stood out was how incredibly banked those turns were.

    That would certainly erase a lot of the advantages of AWD. Maybe that's why the Carrera GT isn't quicker.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Please folks, if you want to display a picture in your post we would really like to see it, but you need to make sure that it is not wider than the normal width of the posting area. Very wide pictures distort the whole page causing most people to have to scroll from left to right to read every line on the page.

    If you can't control the width of the picture, please just post the URL instead of displaying it.

    Two posts with very wide pictures were deleted. Posters are welcome to repost either an edited version or just the URL.

    Thanks.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    C2S would have been off the road were it belongs in this stuff...

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    How did a Porsche 911 AWD end up in this thread? The thread is about AWD "sedans," not AWD coupes, or any other kind of AWD car.

    Bob
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    A little latitude is not a bad thing. :)
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I'm perhaps the guiltiest of bringing the 911 into the discussion. But it came from responding to another poster that took the position that AWD is superior to RWD in "performance", regardless of driving conditions. The RWD versions of the 911 indicate otherwise, and have each recorded better Nurburgring track times than their respective AWD counterparts.

    And I do think this has some relevance to the sedan debate, as a lot of purchasers of AWD sedans don't necessarily understand, or at least acknowledge, the performance tradeoffs.

    Plus, it's a little more exciting to see a picture of a Speed Yellow 911 Turbo rolling through the snow than a bloated Audi A4 Quattro ;)

    But I will attempt to reign in my digressions. I think the issue has been beaten up pretty much, anyway. :)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    These systems will continue to improve. Soon, AWD will dominate. It's not the other way around, IMHO.

    The most advanced AWD system thus far.

    MUNICH, Germany — BMW is preparing to upgrade all of its four-wheel-drive models with an advanced new torque-vectoring system aimed at improving on-road agility. Called Dynamic Performance Control, the new system was developed with German engineering specialist ZF. It's based around BMW's four-wheel-drive xDrive arrangement but adds a series of additional electromagnetic clutches in a modified rear-mounted differential housing to further enhance its operation.

    Dynamic Performance Controls works in conjunction with sensors in the ABS system that measure steering angle, yaw rates, road speed and torque developed by the engine. They are capable of apportioning drive between the front and rear axles as in today's models, as well as from side to side at the rear for what BMW describes as a more neutral cornering stance.

    The idea is to direct drive to where it can be used most effectively, in an operation not dissimilar to that of a traditional locking differential on a rear-wheel-drive car. If the car understeers, for example, xDrive will redirect more drive to the rear wheels and, if required, the Dynamic Performance Control system will then load up the outside rear wheel with greater torque for improved balance.

    During oversteer, it reverses the action, sending the majority of drive through the front wheels and, if necessary, increasing torque to the inside rear wheel to stabilize the car during cornering (see diagram).

    Unlike similar systems developed by rival carmakers, BMW's Dynamic Performance Control operates both under load and on the overrun, meaning the car continues to be stabilized even when the driver steps off the throttle at midcorner.

    BMW is remaining tight-lipped on when Dynamic Performance Control will be introduced. However, signs are it will appear first on the upcoming X6 before heading into other models, including the X3, X5 and four-wheel-drive versions of the 3, 5, and next-generation 7 Series. Also earmarked to accept the new system is BMW's as yet unnamed seven-seat MPV and a secret new junior four-wheel drive that's tipped to slot into the German carmaker's lineup beneath the X3.

    Regards,
    OW
  • spiritintheskyspiritinthesky Member Posts: 207
    These systems will continue to improve. Soon, AWD will dominate. It's not the other way around, IMHO.

    Dominate what?

    Notice the underlined qualification:

    BMW is preparing to upgrade all of its four-wheel-drive models with an advanced new torque-vectoring system aimed at improving on-road agility.

    BMW does not currently offer the top of the line 550i, 7 series or any of its "M" cars with AWD and has no plans to do so. Nor does it offer a complete "sport" package on the AWD models. Same with Mercedes. None of their high performance AMG models (save SUV's) come with 4-matic.

    As an admitted driving enthusiast who places handling, agility, road feel and power "efficiency" high on their preference list, AWD definitely has some drawbacks. I would never want to see my M5 go the way of AWD and am seriously considering trading my 911 Turbo for a GT2. Maybe even a less powerful, but far nimbler GT3.

    Automatic transmissions "dominate" the U.S. market. But I would never consider one for my sports sedan or sports car. Same goes for AWD. It may offer the average driver in the northern half of the country better all season versitility. But if you enjoy the performance attibutes that I do, or live in the southern half of the country, AWD is a step in the wrong direction.

    One might look at FWD as a bit of a lesson here. It clearly offers some foul weather advantages, and is cheaper to mass produce than RWD. Yet, to claim it "dominates" is obviously incorrect. AWD is better than FWD on both the performance and all season front, but is more expensive to produce/maintain, reduces fuel efficiency and still has performance disadvantages compared to RWD. In my neck of the woods (Pittsburgh), I think AWD will make it's way into more average passenger cars. But I still think it highly unlikely you will see it in an M3 or M5 anytime soon.

    P.S. I just had a slight scare with my 2003 M5. The stability control system indicated a "malfunction" and I had to take the car in. Turned out to be a fried computer sensor and control chip that were replaced under a "courtesy" warranty (car is 53 months old). The non-warraty cost would have been $1,100. Another $1,000 if the ABS system had been affected. But the car was 100% driveable. You want to guess the hassle and cost of repairs of the more advanced, computer controlled AWD systems and what the consequences of a failure there would be? There is a saying in my business that you should be careful about buying into new, pioneering technology that doesn't have a significant, measurable advantage over current, proven, technology. Some of what we are seeing in cars today is technology for the geek's sake (self parking Lexus, for one; hybrid $110k Lexus LS that gets worse mileage than the gas model for another). AWD systems are not in that category, but the bandwagon is full of people who don't consider the cost side of cost benefit analysis. And BMW's SMG transmissions are a notorious example of that.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Dominate the market, IOW, sales. It's not going away but expanding is all I am saying.

    BMW does not currently offer the top of the line 550i, 7 series or any of its "M" cars with AWD and has no plans to do so. Nor does it offer a complete "sport" package on the AWD models. Same with Mercedes. None of their high performance AMG models (save SUV's) come with 4-matic.

    JENS MEINERS | Automotive News Europe
    Posted Date: 5/17/05
    MUNICH     – BMW could expand its M range of high-performance cars into SUVs and other models.

    The X5 and X3 premium SUV models are possible contenders for new M variants, as are the 5 Series station wagon and the Z4 roadster.

    Extending the M range would spell the end of the purist approach that the M division has followed since it launched its first car, the 1978 M1. This was a supercar co-developed with Lamborghini and styled by Italdesign Giugiaro.

    Currently, BMW sells the M3, M5 and M6.

    “We have great potential to go into new segments with M models,” said M division CEO Ulrich Bruhnke.

    Bruhnke said the success of the X3 and X5 SUVs shows that BMW can break out of its traditional segments.

    Not a guarantee either way, just potential.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    ..that says it better than I:

    "It's just that drive all the wheels seems to me as fundamentally correct as putting brakes on all the wheels, or putting wipers on both sides of the windshield, or headlights on both sides of the front end. I believe that one day, two-wheel drive will be considered a specialty drivetrain, for special-purpose vehicles such as sports cars or commercial trucks or super-cheap economy cars."

    Bring on the drive! RWD for the weekend, AWD for the rest! (IMHO)

    Regards,
    OW
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,789
    two-wheel drive will be considered a specialty drivetrain, for special-purpose vehicles such as sports cars

    That is good enough for me... I want all my cars to drive like sports cars... :)

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  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    2009 BMW X6

    An M Version on the Way?

    Our sources at BMW tell us that there are serious discussions about an X6 makeover by the high-performance M division as well.

    Until now BMW has resisted the urge to take on the likes of the Mercedes-Benz ML63 AMG, Porsche Cayenne Turbo and Range Rover Sport, but there are signs that the 507-hp 5.0-liter V10 from the M division could be used to create a full-house X6 to provide the German carmaker with a new four-wheel-drive flagship.

    The X6's standard engines will be mated to a new ZF-engineered eight-speed automatic gearbox. But any M version would likely be offered with either a conventional six-speed manual transmission or BMW's soon-to-be-revealed dual-clutch gearbox, since the new ZF eight-speed can't handle the high revs produced by the V10 power plant.

    I'll stick to the 335xi for now.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    That is good enough for me... I want all my cars to drive like sports cars

    Considering 20% of 911's sold through July 2007 were Turbo, I guess those owner's agree with you.

    Regards,
    OW
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Will their sedan have AWD?

    I prefer the Aston Martin Rapide in terms of looks so I haven't really been paying attention to what drivetrain the Porsche sedan will get.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Considering 20% of 911's sold through July 2007 were Turbo, I guess those owner's agree with you.

    Considering that my dealer has 3 unsold 911 Turbos sitting on the lot and a 12-18 month waiting list for the less powerful, but nearly as expensive GT3, I think a LOT of serious enthusiasts agree with spiritinthesky, kyfdx, and me.

    There is almost a direct golfing analogy. Several years ago as I slipped from a single digit to a double digit handicapper (kids happened), I went to Calloway cavity backed cast Big Bertha irons from my former forged tour blade irons. There is no doubt that they the Calloways are more "forgiving" and my miss-hits are not nearly as bad as they would have been with the tour blades. But you will never see Tiger Woods giving up the feel, control and performance of a forged tour blade for a more "forgiving" cavity backed iron.

    So why is it that you seem to want to promote AWD to soemthing that it isn't? A 330ix is NOT as nimble feeling or responsive as a 330i. Nor is a 911 C4S as nimble feeling, responsive or even as quick as a C2S. I can tell the difference immediately, and I'm a long ways away from Tiger Woods or Spiritinthesky. If you can't, perhaps a little more time behind the wheel and less on the AWD podium is in order?

    Please understand, I'm not chastizing you or anyone else for selecting AWD. You have your preferences and priorities and I have mine.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I agree with you on the feel and balancing a precision club vs. a "safer" one that edges out imperfections. The same with the c2 vs. c4. You use what is best for you. Totally agree.

    But many a par and even some eagles were swooped out of a sand trap. And most "real" courses have many hazards and the weather is not always agreeable. Different clubs for different situations.

    Since I drove the xi vs the 335i, what you call nimble is true but the total handling capability does to the awd, IMO, and no comparison in wet/snow. That's with the same exact Continental AW tires on stock cars. It's better to drive them back to back like I did. The feel is different. The AWD will NOT let the rear slide whatsoever in, through and out of the turns and allows power-on late/early. It's very different and satisfying none the less.

    AWD is what it is. It allows better traction by using all 4 wheels. What it isn't is lighter/more efficient. You can call it "training wheels" but the technology will only improve.

    I will now step down from the podium! Pretty funny!

    The turbo sales were from the mid year review('06-'07) by the CEO, Dr. Wendelin Wiedeking.

    The two sports car series were linked to sustained growth. 17,329 vehicles were sold
    from the 911 series, of which 3,461 were the top model, the 911 Turbo. Total growth for the
    911 series amounted to 15.7%. The Boxster series even experienced growth of 19.6% to
    11,979 vehicles; this figure included 7,687 Cayman and Cayman S models.

    I really respect your view and knowledge and promote the RWD capability and fun factor. I plan to get the fun car soon, RWD for me as well. But the Turbo is really enticing...

    Regards,
    OW
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Isn't there a thread for that debate?

    This thread is supposed to be about AWD sedans, we can debate what the ultimate AWD sedan is, but I kinda doubt a Porsche 911 qualifies. ;)

    A while back an Australian magazine tested AWD vs. RWD vs. FWD, in an all around test of handling, and AWD one. They used a WRX STI for the AWD, a Porsche for RWD, and I forget what the FWD was, to be honest that's probably because I didn't care. :D
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The GT-R could be the fastest AWD this side of $100K.

    link title

    I guess the 911 Turbo has some competition. I assume the AWD detracts from the experience similar to the Turbo. I wonder if that will change at some point.

    Getting around the 'Ring for this car should approach the nose-bleed ranks dominated by Porsche.

    The cost of admission to this rare distinction has dropped a tad for those interested to find out first hand (I assume in Z06 territory).

    Regards,
    OW
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not a sedan but that's awesome so it gets a pass. ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Heck, I keep forgetting about the sedan part! :blush:

    Regards,
    OW
  • keithrezkeithrez Member Posts: 12
    I have been on this thread and posted before regarding AWD, and still am unsure which way I am going to go. Regardless, my ? is this. I have heard from 2 different 3 series RWD owners that the RWD sucks in icy/bad weather (I live in NYC area), so if I go BMW, I am going xi. I test drove a CLK350 RWD in the rain and didn't feel confident in its traction. Can anyone enlighten me as to the MB 4matic system? Is it dramatically better than the RWD version regarding traction etc? In poor weather, I am a smart, conservative driver. Tnx. Keith
  • xeyexeye Member Posts: 168
    This discussion migrates from forum to forum...

    Here's the bottom line. We're not talking about the track, We're not talking about glass-smooth autobahns with nice sweeping s-curves, and we're not talking about how full your testosterone tank is.

    What we're talking about here is nasty wet puddles, more than 2" of snow with some ice beneath perhaps, gravel and sand on the road in a curve and more unstable conditions...basically challenging REAL-LIFE road conditions that would put ANY car into a perilous situation, anywhere.

    I don't care how far out you can swing your rear end in a decreasing radius curve and still recover when the conditions are perfect.

    With AWD at it's current technological level and the ever-developing advances being made, there is NO QUESTION that AWD is safer. Period. End of discussion. This is not a discussion of whether it can be flogged harder, it is a question of whether it saves lives. And with the 335xi with 300 hp, it can definitely be driven plenty hard with gobs of fun. This is only one example of many vehicles with lots of oomph, and many others are much more powerful.

    For all you RWD motor-heads, my final comment will be when I drive my AWD to your final resting place and place the wreath on your casket.

    I sincerely hope this never happens to any of us. Use common sense when you drive, and look out for the other guy, even on the track.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "For all you RWD motor-heads, my final comment will be when I drive my AWD to your final resting place and place the wreath on your casket."

    That kind of rhetoric doesn't help further your arguments or anybody else's for that matter. Like it or not, your all-season shod "xi" model will actually be less safe in snow, rain, sleet and ice (or any combination thereof) than a RWD "i" model with a good set of winter tires mounted. Don't believe me? No problem. There have now been at least two different studies done since 2000 that have taken two otherwise identical cars, one with RWD and the other with AWD, and compared them back-to-back (IIRC, the first test used two Mercedes E-Class cars, and the other used two Chrysler 300Cs), and in both cases, the RWD car with winter rubber was able to brake and turn better than the AWD car with all-season rubber.

    If you really want to walk your talk, you need to opt for winter rubber on your "xi", otherwise it might just be you that has the problems out there on the roads when the snow flies.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • tiff_ctiff_c Member Posts: 531
    I have been on this thread and posted before regarding AWD, and still am unsure which way I am going to go. Regardless, my ? is this. I have heard from 2 different 3 series RWD owners that the RWD sucks in icy/bad weather (I live in NYC area), so if I go BMW, I am going xi. I test drove a CLK350 RWD in the rain and didn't feel confident in its traction.

    What you need are snow tires! If you try and scrape by with all seasons you won't have the grip in the ice and snow and snow tires themselves vary by quite a lot. I've driven a lot of RWD cars and as long as they have good snow tires you will be fine!
    Oh and I drive a Subaru WRX and I still run snow tires on it. If I didn't I wouldn't go very far. You mostly get slush down in NYC. If you lived up much further Mass, NH, VT, Upper New York State. You'd need snow tires.
    AWD is great in my Subie, but no way would I get an AWD BMW, too much compromise compared to performance. I drove a Miata with Nokian snow tires in the winter and that's a very light RWD car and it went better than most SUV's!
    Tires make the difference in the snow. Yes if you see a LOT of hills with Snow and Ice then you need better snow tires, but AWD does not enhance the performance of a BMW.
    Rain is different and again correctable with good tires but summer tires with good rain handling ability. Forget the cheap crap tires they sell you with the car. Runflats are awful anyway.
    If you really feel you need a decent AWD system then it's Audi or Subaru. Big $$$$$ for the Audi Quattro system and a Subie is very reasonable.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    There have now been at least two different studies done since 2000 that have taken two otherwise identical cars, one with RWD and the other with AWD, and compared them back-to-back.

    If you really want to walk your talk, you need to opt for winter rubber on your "xi", otherwise it might just be you that has the problems out there on the roads when the snow flies.

    Shipo, I highly respect your knowledge and direction. The xi option is just one way to get better traction and tires are the most important because that's where it all happens. AWD will do no good with crappy rubber...and some AS tires are real junk. IOW, AWD is NOT a panaceas.

    As I've pointed out ad-nauseam, AWD tech will keep improving to the point where the benefit in performance without detracting from chassis balance/steering feel will be a given. We're a long way from that at this point in time.

    Regards,
    OW
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I have heard from 2 different 3 series RWD owners that the RWD sucks in icy/bad weather (I live in NYC area), so if I go BMW, I am going xi.

    NYC? Baby. :P

    I'm originally from NW Pennsylvania, with an average of 100-120" of annaul snowfall. If I were to move back to that area and was interested in the 328i, I would buy a RWD model and at the same time, before I even had a chance to think about it, buy a set of winter wheels and snow tires.

    The 328xi costs $1,900 more than the 328i. It weighs 242 lbs more, which is a lot for a car with only 200 ft. lbs. of torque. And the best AWD systems out there have an additional 3-5% loss in drivetrain efficiency, due to the additional moving parts.

    Would a 328xi fitted with snow tires give you better winter weather performance than a 328i with the same snow tires. Absolutely (at least in theory). But, at the point that the AWD would be a benefit, you might find that a low ground clearance sedan isn't exactly an high ground clearance SUV capable of plowing through 12 inches of unplowed snow, no matter what the drive system. If I really thought I needed a winter vehicle first and foremeost, I'd consider an X3 before either a 328ior ix.

    I have no ax to grind either way, as I don't own a 3 series, or any BMW for that matter. (But I have test driven several models extensively). I am just offering you my personal perspecitive and opinion, which you can take or leave. I believe that a 328i with snow tires will get you through the winter with 85%+ of the effectiveness as a 328xi with snow tires. And 130%+ of the effectiveness as a 328xi with all seasons (i.e. snow tires are worth 2x the drive train). Further, I believe that a 328i will get you 5-10% better gas mileage over the life of the car and be more fun to drive - more responsive, nimble, etc. - 80-90% of the time the weather conditions and road surfaces are favorable.

    So take all of those percentages and associated costs and do your own analysis. Or adjust my percentages, if you think they are wrong. But I would personally come out in favor of a 328i, with that extra set of winter wheels and tires. At least partly because my assumption is that anyone getting a 3-series over an A4 or C-class cares about handling and performance 22.5% more than buyers of those other brands. If the C-class is your thing, 4-matic is less of an added incumbrance because you are already starting a notch down in driving dynamics from a 3 series.

    And, contrary to what some suggest, I don't think you need your testosterone on overdrive to be able to tell the handling, fuel efficiency and performance difference in a 200 ft-lb 328i vs. ix with a less efficient drivetrain and an extra 240 lbs to lug around, day in and day out.

    There you have it. From somebody that doesn't own one or the other and feel the need to defend their own purchase decision.
  • xeyexeye Member Posts: 168
    If your problem is stopping and turning in bad weather conditions, you're going too fast for the conditions in the first place, and heaven help the unfortunate soul in front of you, even with your snow tires.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    You're missing the point. I'm not worried about stopping due to my excessive speed as I do in fact drive for the conditions. That said, stopping and maneuvering capabilities in winter weather are very important when some other unfortunate soul is driving a vehicle beyond its limits. Try as one might, you cannot always predict what the other guy is going to do, or what Mother Nature is going to throw your way in the form of falling tree limbs and such, (very common occurrences around here). When the unexpected happens (and in winter time it is a matter of when NOT if) winter tires and an agile suspension may very well be the only thing between a close call and disaster.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    It must be just me but the handling performance difference is very slight and favors the xi over the i non-SP and the feel is not disappointing to any extent between the two, imo. Different but not disappointing. So, this is ONLY my opinion and not destined to change any perspectives. I can see myself in a 335i next year...it doesn't have to be the xi.

    I will give you a comparison with comparable weight cars. I owned a Lincoln LS RWD.

    If I compare the LS and the 330xi, the weight was approximately the same. The LS handles extremely well for a large car and had gobs more room than the 3. The weight of the LS is 3,772, the 330xi is 3,627. Both have 50/50 weight dist. front/back. The xi handling is 150% better than the LS.

    The 330xi handling is 110% of the 330/335i non-SP, IMO, after driving all 3. If I wanted better handling, the SP would be ticked on a RWD 335i.

    The xi vs 330/335i in wet conditions has better traction in my experience which is adequate but very limited in comparing the 2 drive trains.

    As for best snow experience, 90% are the tires with ANY power configuration. The xi with snows should be at the top of traction performance for sedans.

    That's it from my side of the axe...FIRE AT WILL!

    Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "The 330xi handling is 110% of the 330/335i non-SP..."

    I'm thinking that you've got that one backwards. On dry roads my bet would be that the 330i non-SP would exhibit about 105% of the handling of the "xi". Swap them for wet conditions. Overall I call it an advantage to the RWD models as wet roads are not an every day (or even every other day) occurrence.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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