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Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans

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Comments

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    Did you by any chance try the G35X and/or S60R?

    For me, it came down to those 2 and the 330i. But, like you, I decided I wanted AWD. That made the Infiniti and Volvo much cheaper than the comparable bimmer. Audi wasn't on my list because I don't trust their reliability. Volvo won my personal driving comparisons (even against the 330i), but I wound up buying a G35X purely for practical reasons (cheaper, lower maintenance, better reported reliability, better resale value). I don't regret it one bit.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • quattroporte12quattroporte12 Member Posts: 178
    Thanks roadburner, youd be happy to know that i went wit the 330. I did seriousley consider the s4, but in the end bmws steering is just so communicative and the suspension is taut yet composed, and the engine is SO smooth and linear. Great, great car. And im going to get a set of 18" blizzacks and mount them on the wheels that come with the 335 coupe with sport package, because i think they look cool on the 3 series sedan too. Thank you for your imput it really helped! By the way though, how do you do the changeover yourself do you have a lift? I dont want to have to take it up to the gas station every time i want to take the wheels off and on
  • quattroporte12quattroporte12 Member Posts: 178
    Thanks qbrozen I did look at the g35, i didnt pursue the s60r but i did look at it briefly online, in general i dont think the car would give the driver as much feedback as the other two would. In the end i went with the 330, and im planing on getting snow tires (it only snows 6 or 7 days a year here anyway), i just thought the g35 was a little coarse compared with the bimmer, it was a great car dont get my wrong, just not as sophisticated with the way it drove. That car (the g35) is no doubt the more reliable choice though, youll be able to take it to 250000 miles easily if you take care of it. Have fun with your G thats a great car and thank you again for the advice
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    Thanks roadburner, youd be happy to know that i went wit the 330. I did seriousley consider the s4, but in the end bmws steering is just so communicative and the suspension is taut yet composed, and the engine is SO smooth and linear.

    Great choice!

    By the way though, how do you do the changeover yourself do you have a lift? I dont want to have to take it up to the gas station every time i want to take the wheels off and on

    I use a Snap-on aluminum jack and stands. I just change one wheel at a time, and it still takes less than an hour. Mark the location of each tire LF, RF, etc., so you can put them on the same corner when you reinstall them. Also, put some anti-seize on each hub before you put put the wheel on and always use a torque wrench to ensure that the lug bolts are properly tightened.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    i just thought the g35 was a little coarse compared with the bimmer, it was a great car dont get my wrong, just not as sophisticated with the way it drove.

    Oh, I'd have to agree. I mean, there is no free lunch. The G is considerably cheaper for a reason.

    Congrats on your choice. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Last time I checked to get a G with AWD you had to settle for an auto trans, is that still the case?
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    Yes.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    :cry:
  • xeyexeye Member Posts: 168
    We received at least 16" of snow this weekend. I brushed the snow off my 328xi and 335xi and drove them both out of my 75' driveway. No hesitation, no protest, ZERO wheelspin. I am completely satisfied. My next car?

    Hello BMW AWD? Just make sure it's turbocharged.

    Any questions?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Any questions?

    You didn't high center? You probably don't have 6" of ground clearance.

    Don't get overconfident.
  • xeyexeye Member Posts: 168
    High center? You mean teeter-totter with the belly of my car sitting atop the snow while the wheels spin out of control?

    Hardly.

    With the let-out of the clutch, the tires advanced the car without hesitation. The trail left behind was a prefect outline of the undercarriage as it leveled the snow. Had I been trying to scale a 2' pile of gravel, I would not have attempted the same maneuver.

    Considering the fun I have driving the 328xi, ad especially the 335xi with the twin turbos and the AWD, as long as I'm in New England, I will consider other vehicles when my car goes geriatric, but I doubt I'll buy any other marque.

    This is just too much fun.

    xeye
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I guess 16" of powder packs down (or gets plowed out of the way) to less than 6". Just be careful when the stuff is packed and there's more than the clearance you have.
  • investor27investor27 Member Posts: 59
    How are the 335ix turbos performing during this sub-zero temperature up there? We are moving to Green Bay, WI, and I was thinking about leasing the BMW 335ix. But I have read elsewhere that the twin-turbos, or any other turbos for that matter, is a bad idea in the cold. Your input is greatly appreciated.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    But I have read elsewhere that the twin-turbos, or any other turbos for that matter, is a bad idea in the cold.

    I cannot for the life of me figure out why that might be. I used to live in Chicago and owned two turbo cars while I lived there. The only issue (if you can call it that) with cold weather that I ever found was that you were able to get significantly MORE power from the engine on very cold days, especially if the intake was intercooled (which the 335i is).

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cool air ought to help all engines, and a turbo puts out more heat so if anything it would benefit more than other engines would.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Apparently you're having a difficult time figuring out what the OP was referring to as well. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yep.
  • investor27investor27 Member Posts: 59
    Shipo. Sorry for the confusion. I was looking around the internet on driving a turbo car in the winter time and came across a lot of Jetta TDI owners stating that their turbo cars have a very hard time warming up quickly during the winter time. The TDIs take so long that they have do-it-yourself projects where they use foam pipe outer covering to stuff the front air-intake of the cars so that they will warm up faster. They keep them on all winter long. They said all turbo cars, including the 335ix which we are interested in, have experienced the same problem.

    I, for one, do not think it is a good idea to block the front air-intake. It is my understanding as well that colder air increases performance by increasing the horse power. And I believe that turbos and twin-turbos run a lot hotter than normal aspirated cars and will need the front air-intakes to cool them down. I'll try to find the pictures of their projects and post them here.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    A couple of points:

    1) Many things that may be true for the TDI generally have zero bearing on other cars, turbocharged or not.

    2) Colder air allows for increased performance due to the fact that the colder the charge, the denser it is (i.e. more oxygen molecules per given volume, allowing for a commensurate increase in the amount of fuel injected into it -- this is more of a factor with normally aspirated engines), AND the cooler the intake charge, the high the boost can be and/or the further advanced the ignition and valve timing can be before reaching the point of insipient detonation.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • xeyexeye Member Posts: 168
    In the Boston area, the engine fires up immediately, the revs settle down to 650 at idle and the turbos are as kick-[non-permissible content removed] as on a beautiful summer day.

    On the other hand, Green Bay is a place where only truly die-hard Packer cheese-heads live! I don't have any doubt at all that the 335xi will perform very well in the cold. I do suggest following BMW's recommendation about top tier gas (Shell, Sunoco, etc. Your dealer can give you a list). Also, check out the right oil. I use Castrol Synthetic 5W-30. That should work for you but check with a knowledgeable mechanic.

    I used to think everyone should drive a 335xi, but if that were true, I wouldn't be able to blow by other cars so easily!

    Go for it. I'm sure you won't regret it. I would strongly suggest a block heater, though. I used one for many years in Montreal, and it was an engine saver.

    xeye
  • xeyexeye Member Posts: 168
    Shipo,

    I'm amazed that I can offer something that I'm sure you already know. It's the same reason you get lousy mileage on the same trips in the winter as the summer. The colder air is denser and the engine knows this. It appropriately injects more fuel to balance the density of air. It may produce more power, but I don't know the physics and chemistry of the equation. (College was a long time ago.)

    Even though the intake may be intercooled (I wasn't aware of this), it's starting with much colder air. It depends on how the intercooler determines when it's job is done. If you have more information on this, I'd appreciate your input.

    xeye
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Also, check out the right oil. I use Castrol Synthetic 5W-30.

    Please be advised that Castrol Syntec 5W-30 DOES NOT meet the necessary oil specifications required for any BMW built since at least the late 1990s. Running that oil is a recipe for a sludged engine and a refusal from your dealership/BMW for warranty repairs if/when the engine fails. The only Castrol Syntec that meets the BMW LongLife-98 and LongLife-01 oil specifications (equired for every gasoline powered BMW sold this decade is Syntec 0W-30. That said, you can buy a Castrol produced oil under the BMW label from your dealership that is in fact a 5W-30, but make no mistake, that is NOT the same oil as is in the Castrol Syntec 5W-30 bottle.

    For all who buy their own oil, the only two generally available LL-01 oils sold here in the U.S. are Mobil 1 0W-40 and Castrol Syntec 0W-30.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Ummm, well it doesn't actually work that way. While it is true that he engine control systems weigh the intake charge and inject the appropriate amount of fuel into it, it is not true that your engine gets worse winter time mileage for that reason. In theory, your engine will ingest the exact same amount of air by weight (and then inject the exact same amount of fuel as a result) per produced horsepower-hour, winter or summer. Said another way, denser air does not automatically equate to lower fuel economy.

    The most common reason why engines deliver lower fuel economy in the winter is that fuel doesn't as easily vaporize in a very cold intake charge as it does in a warm or hot intake charge, and as such, the engine needs to run a tad richer to make sure the burn inside the cylinders is properly controlled. That said, depending upon how the intake is setup, turbocharged engines have the ability to negate the cold air/poor vaporization thing by relying on the warming effect the turbocharger(s) create by compressing the intake charge. Back in the 1980s I had a non-intercooled turbocharged car that actually got better fuel economy on the highway in the winter months, in fact, the best mileage it ever got was driving across Nebraska at something like ten degrees below zero.

    The question here is, "Does the 335i bypass the intercooler when the intake charge is cold and the engine is being operated at partial throttle?" Answer: I don't know for sure, but I kind of doubt it, that would be a lot of plumbing.

    Taken from a different perspective, Audi, with its FSI style engines that inject the fuel directly into the hot combustion chamber, is now producing cars that vary little winter vs. summer with regards to fuel economy.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Diesels are totally different. We shouldn't even group turbo-diesels with gas turbos when we discuss forced induction.
  • krzysskrzyss Member Posts: 849
    One thing that was not mentioned is that winter gas and summer gas have different formulations and simply winter gas has less energy per volume than summer flavour.
    AFAIK

    Krzys
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    My understanding is that the seasonal formulations vary by region. I did a little studying on this a couple of years back when E10 first made its appearance here in New England, and IIRC, the formulation here in the Boston area is the same year round.

    Anybody with more recent information?

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Same here in MD.

    At first it varied by the time of year, but now we use E10 year-round. No change in the formula seasonally any more.
  • richt5richt5 Member Posts: 43
    I have 2 2006 mazda 6's ,a 2.3 i4 gt and a gt speed6.The fuel mileage difference between the 2 --- summer vs winter is about the same. Its 2 miles per gallon better in the summer. I watch mileage very carefully . This is real would driving . The biggest difference I have found is between gas brands ----- I know you wouldnt think so. I have found Shell to be the most inconsistent , sometimes 3 miles to the gallon less --- remember 2 cars , same conditions , same drivers and accurate calculations. Political concerns aside , Citgo is the most consistent. So turbo vs non turbo , 2 very similar cars (for this test) , the turbo still uses a little more gas in cold weather as does the non turbo. Buy the way both cars are great. thanks . I hope this offers some clarity to the subject.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Both sedans?

    Interesting to own the same car twice, despite major differences in the powertrains.
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    I sold my MazdaSpeed6 last Fall; then drove our 03 Audi A4; now drive our 09 A4. That MazdaSpeed6 was a lot of car for the money. I still miss it, but it encouraged me to get speeding tickets. I got between 24-29 mpg with it. The regular Mazda6 is a nice car, but I doubt if it drives the same.

    The A4 is a nice car but more bland. An automatic transmission just doesn't get me involved in the driving process; so I treat it like an appliance, with little urge to "push" it.
  • penguinheadpenguinhead Member Posts: 7
    Hello all !
    New here...figured it would be an intelligent place...
    Wife looking to buy a used (2004) AWD Sedan. Each has about 68,000 miles on it.
    Prices are apparent differences, will deal with that later.

    Looking at:

    AUDI A4 1.8 Quattro
    Infinity G35x
    BMW 325xi
    Mercedes c-240

    Not looking for a 'race car'. Standard wife car; comfortable; good in snow. She likes these styles, so the Subarus are not a consideration.

    Looking for opinions on each.
    Maybe a quick summary that you may have on each.
    Seeing that it is an AUDI forum - please feel free to let me know why I should get her the AUDI rather than the others.

    I look forward to all your help.
    Please be as lively and opinionated as you'd like to be !

    Thank you !!!

    Tooky

    (Will post in the other forums also)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think you have a nice list of cars there, actually.

    I've driven all of them at one point or another, last year I went to an Audi event at Summit Point and sampled the Bimmer, Benz, Audi, and a Lexus IS250 AWD.

    The Benz was a bit soft, this being a 2008 or so model. For their AWD cars the suspension tuning is softer, perhaps they expect snowy climates call for different priorities, but I was disappointed.

    The Lexus was softer than the Benz. Great interior, but boring compared to the others.

    The Audi was new and a V6 model, but I hear great things about the 2.0FSI, so I would really encourage you to sample one of those.

    The Bimmer and Audi went head to head, both were loads of fun. Tough call.

    The G35 I drove on a different day and was not the AWD 'x' model. Really liked it, good all-arounder. I'd recommend those 3 for you to sample.

    The Benz and Lexus only if you really want a softer, more comfy ride that wasn't as involving. If you're even searching in this thread, I sort of doubt that's the case.
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    We recently went looking to replace our 03 A4 1.8T quattro. All the cars we looked at would be good choices, depending on your priorities. MB C300 4matic- really liked the looks, smallish trunk, definitely a contender. BMW 328xi- excellent handling, not sure we like the runflat tires, small trunk. G35x- handles like a big car, big HP means less mpg, many nice features. Audi A4: we loved our 03 but decided to get a new one at 74,000 miles. Now we have an 09 A4 which is the same model, same interior color, same exterior color, similar turbo engine, but more spacious, more power (but same mpg), even better handling. My wife loves the Audi, as she did the 03, and they are great snow cars. I even put Blizzaks on it for her.
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    i thought it's pretty cool video of EVO10:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4CfWdoSOTk&feature=fvhl

    ...the famous old video of EVO8 vs. Lambo:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ees2aZcDUn8&feature=channel

    and lancer EVO8 vs audi s4 vs sti:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Seuvqhrsjwo
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    I am looking at CR performance charts for the 112 sedans tested (this includes both RWD and AWD). To me the sportiest sedan would have best 0-60 acceleration, and best handling: Avoidance Maneuver Max Speed. These are top ten in both categories. Note that only two: G and Evo made both acceleration and handling top3/top10 lists:

    Acceleration 0-60
    image

    Avoidance Maneuver Max Speed
    image
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    Other interesting points.

    * The Infiniti G is highest performer overall - arguably Ultimate AWD Sports Sedan, based on CR testing anyway.

    * Infiniti G is RWD, but AWD version was not tested and I assume it would have similar performance.

    * EVO with its tiny 2L engine is behind of 8L Pontiac just a fraction of second.

    * EVO MR with Twin Clutch transmission was not tested.

    * Audi and BMW 3xx did not make both lists.

    * Lexus IS, Elantra and Rio handle surprisingly well, better then BMW.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wonder why it's not recommended? :confuse:

    What really stands out, to me, is that the Kia Rio sedan managed to make that list. It's probably the cheapest sedan in the world! :D
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> I wonder why it's not recommended?

    This numbers are just about driving fun and driving performance. Not recommended cars here either have reliability below average (audi, dodge, pontiac) or did not take (or did not pass) crash test (mitsubishi):
    crash-tests
    .

    >> What really stands out, to me, is that the Kia Rio sedan managed to make that list. It's probably the cheapest sedan in the world!

    It is in fact amazing that this ugly duck handles better then BMW, Mercedes C-class Sport and 100 other sedans:

    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wouldn't conclude it "handles better", this is just one single test, and I'm sure a narrow, light car tends to have an advantage over a heavier, wider one.

    This is also largely a test of how intrusive (safe?) a stability control system is, which slows yours exit speed.

    Still, it would be fun to own one of those and challenge a Bimmer in a slalom. :D
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >>This is also largely a test of how intrusive (safe?) a stability control system is, which slows yours exit speed. Still, it would be fun to own one of those and challenge a Bimmer in a slalom.

    It would be fun indeed. In this fun MT slalom test Lancer Evo 4-door sedan beats Corvette, Viper, Lamborghini, Ferrari and Benz:

    image
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    Infiniti G is RWD, but AWD version was not tested and I assume it would have similar performance.

    Infiniti G now comes in AWD sport, the G37XS.

    Similar suspension to the RWD G37S.

    Having driven both, it was hard to decide which I liked better. Unobtrusive AWD system made both very sporty feeling.
  • trainerusatrainerusa Member Posts: 3
    What is a best lease deal for a new Legacy sedan '10 in MI, 4cyl or 6 cyl ?
    Please advise
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ask in this thread, which is the busiest for Legacy/Outback shoppers:

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0a5a57.ef17adf/2587#MSG2587
  • raj1raj1 Member Posts: 27
    a4 seemed lot of fun with car zooming forward from stop. bmw also good control and responded well. i guess more torque at lower speeds made the difference. i did do only city driving though - going to upto 50 with the audi. didn't find anything bad, but don't know about freeway limitations. apart from that, it was definitely roomier than the bmw, and also had more features for the money, better leather also. any comments... did not try the infinity - not interested in that much power, with low mileage as a consequence to boot. also heard audi awd is the best.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A while ago I drove an A4 V6 and liked it, the new model, too. They changed the AWD split to allow a rear bias, and I liked it better. More neutral handling, it seemed. The BMW 328xi just about matched it on the track at Summit Point, where I sampled them both.

    I had a slight preference for the Bimmer, but half the crowd preferred the Audi, so it was a close call.

    I have not sampled the 2.0T in an Audi yet.
  • njmarcynjmarcy Member Posts: 16
    The dilema has begun. Since I am writing in this forum, you know where I am leaning. I presently have a BMW 325xi. Any and all thoughts are appreciated. Thank you!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Have not driven the latest S60. The prior model was a little nose heavy, though I liked the Haldex version better than the FWD one.

    I've only sampled the RWD G37. Loved it.

    A4 - I drove a base model 2.0TFSI at a BMW event, and was disappointed. The Dynamic suspension on the V6 model I sampled earlier was much better. The small engine lags a bit, too, especially driving it back to back with a Bimmer and a Benz C300 4Matic. But what really disappointed me was the base suspension - lots of dive and squat, and too much body roll. It's just too soft for aggressive driving.

    So at least get the dynamic suspension, I'd say.

    I just drove a Legacy with my brother on Saturday, but it was not a GT. The 2.5i base model is on his short list. The new one is a lot bigger than the other cars here, but it still drives well. The extra room is welcome, IMHO.

    Do you like your Bimmer? Why not another one? Just curious.
  • njmarcynjmarcy Member Posts: 16
    Hi...I appreciate your response in such detail. I will be test driving th e s60 on saturday, but I am not even sure if they will have a 2012 on the lot, which is key based on your response above. Also, I will only consider the AWD version,which they don't have now...so I may just have to wait.

    Prior to the Bimmer I owned a Subaru GT and it was a great car. But it lacked any class in the interior. My husband still own an Outback, he is headed to his 4th one, but the inside leather, is terrible.

    The reason not another Bimmer is easy. The paint is paper thin on these cars, and if you don't have the car hand washed all the time, swirl marks prevail. I had an 05, and to make a long story short, after 3 return visits down to them wetsanding the car, it still had the marks on it. ( It was delivered to me that way). So i ended up getting an 06 for next to nothing price wise.

    tx again...time for some test driving....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Subie is also one (or two) price classes down from the others, so no surprise.

    I'd definitely sample a G37x and an A4 Quattro w/Dynamic suspension back-to-back. Should be hard to choose!
  • bemerbemer Member Posts: 20
    "That said, you can buy a Castrol produced oil under the BMW label from your dealership that is in fact a 5W-30, but make no mistake, that is NOT the same oil as is in the Castrol Syntec 5W-30 bottle."

    Are you saying the BMW label sold by the dealer DOES NOT meet the necessary oil specifications required for latest BMW engines? - That would make no sense.....
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