Buick Lucerne

62vetteefp · October 2005

Thanks for the link. Does the exact same thing as Magnasteer and other systems in other vehicles that are very common. No idea how they get $2000 for it.

Issue is that DVD-audio had not taken off. Just not selling like they wanted to. I got the DVD audio pitch about a year ago (trying to get us to put DVD audio heads in cars) and while it was great there just are not enough people who care enough to buy the equipment in this world of MP3 music. I have to DVD-audios they gave to me and sould great at home. Of course all I listen to now is XM. My CD player jsut sits there and what was that AM/FM thing?:)

vanman1 · October 2005

My only disappointment with the car is the base motor really. The looks, materials and quality are great all around and the base CX and CXL are priced right.

I will still test the car, maybe the mounting, sound dentening and tuning of the 3800 will surprise me. If it at least had a 6-speed transmission or something I may be more hopeful. I hope I'm surprised because I love the look and size of the car.

62vetteefp · October 2005

It does have the series III 3.8 which has added quiet features (structural oil pan for one)

vanman1 · October 2005

True. My parents have a 3800 powered LeSabre and it has lots of power also and torque.

I have a feeling the 3800 is a goner soon also which makes it's presence in the Lucerne even stranger. Only 3 cars have the 3800 in 2006, the LaCrosse, Lucerne and Grand Prix.

62vetteefp · October 2005

Not to strange:

3800 was already in the LeSabre so there was no engineering to put leave it in.

Traditional buyers of Buicks LOVE the 3.8 for many reasons-torque, longevity, etc.

Lucerne is supposedely on a short life time.

They put in a V8 which many buyers will opt for over the supercharged 3.8.

They had to put the 3.8 in something to keep the last module at full production for a few mre years. What better than a Buick for the reasons above. Where else would it go?

1487 · October 2005

I think the V8 will make up half of Lucerne sales, especially since you can get into a V8 model for under $31K. The 3800 is under powered for this size car, but there are other cars offering similar hp for similar money. Think about it, a TSX has 200hp and costs $27K the A4 2.0 with 200hp costs even more. I think the 3800 will last about one model year. I suspect the 3.5L V6 in the Impala will replace the 3800 for the 2007 model year. The 3800 is probably in production due to shortages of a replacement engine or some type of union contract at the locations where they build the 3800.

imidazol97 · October 2005

Lucerne weighs 170 pounds more than the 2005 LeSabre. Easily fixed for the 3800 with a slight change in overall drive ratio. Engine is more than torquey enough for me.

62vetteefp · October 2005

3800 will be there until all 3 users drop it. Need to shut the last module down at the same time. I see a few years untill the GP is replaced.

narg · October 2005

I'm amazed with all the Toyota comparisons these days, especially to this car. In the 90's Toyota arguably had the best on the market. Not so today. Today they are oversold and underbuilt. No better than any other offering that is available by GM or others. The advertising for Toyota continues to boast more than is really there, almost reaching that of beer commercials for exagerations and overstatements. GM quality has jumped increadably in the past decade. Before anyone puts them down, be sure to check the repare rate for any Toyota to that of Buick. Not good. Also consider the type of person who would buy a Toyota, those who would trust a commercial over real world application. Very few cars today are so different in real quality there is simply no comparison. Only features and style are the only differences worth considering. Each vehicle sold today either will or will not have problems, your luck will be the only factor. Nothing else.

I personally think the Lucerne's looks are far better than most Lexus offerings given today. Inside and out. But that's my opinion. You're intitled to your own. It's a touch classic with very modern tones and lines. Very Buick, which I've always liked. According to JDPowers, Buick is only bettered by Lexus in quality, which I attribute to the appearance that most Lexus drivers wouldn't know it if a tire fell off their car while going down the road. Seriously, I think Lexus drivers have to pass an idiot verification test prior to ownership, as they seem to drive worse than most. Don't you agree?

GM in general has had the best advancements of any car maker. But until you own one, you'll never understand. So don't state what you obviously don't know about if you've not experienced the latest GM can and does offer.

navigator89 · October 2005

Sorry.....but one thing GM doesn't offer is the resale value of the Japanese cars.

I see a lot of Lexuses and I never see them driving badly. Driving badly has nothing to do with what you drive.

Today a guy in an Avalanche was tailgating me at 75mph, does that mean all GM drivers are bad?

GM cars aren't bad, but the only problem is they can sometimes feel cheap, unrefined and lack some key features. They also take a long time to update their cars. The Cavalier wasn't fully redesigned in 10 years, and the GM fullsize trucks haven't been redesigned since 1999. The GM vans look new, but the platform goes back to 1997. The American manufacturers don't update their cars often enough and they fall of buyers radar. Then they need huge discounts to make them sell.

Anyway, about the Lucerne it seems like a great car and will hopefully bring more people into Buick dealers. Can't wait to read the review.

imidazol97 · October 2005

>.but one thing GM doesn't offer is the resale value of the Japanese cars.

So resale value is the only measure of the quality in a car? I never trade mine for 10 years currently and 150K or more. Do I care what it's worth at 2 years? NO.

BTW, I can get you some stock that has higher value in the market than the real value of the stock; does that make it a better stock?

imidazol97 · October 2005

>Can't wait to read the review.

I fully expect many reviews of the car to be that it doesn't meet the little items that they feel should be in every car or the motors don't suit them because they aren't what that writer thinks should be in the car. The same writer would criticize whatever motor choice had been put in but we're not supposed to figure that out. Or the car doesn't have the $2000 navigation screen that their favorite Hondamobile has in it. Or the car doesn't have RWD so it's worthless as a luxury car.

Prepare for the panning by the "knowing" editors/reviewers. The positive things they say will all be in paragraphs with a negative at the end of each paragraph. That way they can say "I said good things about it" but the influence on the reader will be negative.

navigator89 · October 2005

Resale value is not the only measure of quality in a car. If you read my post closely you would have seen that I mentioned feature content and refined character as things that a quality car should have.

You don't get change you car for 10 years for whatever reason. Other wealthier people who get a new car every 2 years wouldn't want a GM as the resale value would be poor, compared to a Japanese car. You may not care what it's worth after 2 years, but I can assure you that there are others who do.

exalteddragon1 · October 2005

100%.

Today the real quality difference between cars is so small its only for marketing purposes. It really is your luck with the car you buy, whetever make you buy from.

GM really is missing key features on its cars, Ford even more so, but then again, Toyota does not have a 5-6 BILLION dollar heathcare bill, and rediculouse retirenmnet benefits for workers that easily dwarf the rest of the industry. Just look at some wonderful news for GM.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/10/A01-343339.htm

Toyota does not have many of these problems. Cars are one of the last things America makes. The big reason is we have very high labor costs. The unions only add to the problem, and there removal of nullification could signal the rebirth of US manufacturing. Don't get rid of them, but don't let them kill our industries.

The Lucern is missing some features, and the 3800 is there b/c of union contracts, but you know what... Its amazing that GM did it this good.

vanman1 · October 2005

Any reviews of Lucerne yet?

abastable · October 2005

I hear the LeSabre and Lucerne are very similar. Buick simply changed the name to attract younger, hipper buyers. Any truth to this?

imidazol97 · October 2005

It's a new car.

motormann · October 2005

I'll agree with many on this forum that GM CAN build a great quality car when it wants to, but it always seems to take three model years to get there. I was waiting in anticipaticion for the Lucerne, only to be disappointed. Here we have Buick's "top of the line" with NO telescoping steering wheel (heck, even the LaCrosse has it) or power adjustable pedals. Every other non-GM car in this class has at least a tilt/telescoping steering wheel. Four speed automatic? The competition has at least 5 forward gears, if not 6! And while the marketing brochures tease with the image of DVD navigation, it is not listed even as an option on the web site. You can dismiss these as minor features, but I'm sure that many will choose other than the Lucerne for these and other "minor" omissions.

62vetteefp · October 2005

Guess I am wondering how lack of features has to do with quality?

There are some features missing though that should be available on a car in this price range. 6 speed is coming for FWD GM cars soon. Perhaps 2007? They are developing it with Ford. What other omissions do you see?

sv7887 · October 2005

Hi All,
Toyota is dying? I don't think so, considering they made 12 Billion in profits while the rest of the industry is tettering on the brink of insolvency. I will bet the farm that my 1992 Lexus LS400 will beat anything on long term quality. Believe me I owned two Buicks in the past to make a valid comparison. Anyone can build cars with great Initial quality scores, but the best test is long term..I haven't seen anyone come near Lexus yet. Lexus wins the quality bracket by a 2:1 margin in those surveys.

They also have resale value that Buick can't touch...Couple that with industry leading customer satisfaction rates, fit and finish, excellent dealer service, brand new loaner cars, and cutting edge electronics that actually work. These are all measurable objective categories where Lexus has the edge. Keep in mind Lexus offers an extended warranty to 7 yrs 100K miles. Buick only recently upgraded theirs to 4 yr/50K.

Styling is so-so but no one except Audi and Jaguar really builds anything special these days. I had a Buick Electra and Park Avenue in the late 80's-early 90's. The Electra was a disaster and the Park Ave was reasonable, but outdated. The car started to fall apart after 4 yrs, so I bought a Lexus instead. 13 years later, I have no regrets, the Lexus has been bulletproof.

I had a LaCrosse as a rental recently. It was okay, a evolution of the Buick's I've owned in the past. The cabin materials were nothing special, and I wasn't impressed overall. Considering the price it was an utter ripoff.

I think they did a much better job in the Lucerne. Offering a FWD with a V-8 is a clever marketing move. I don't think anyone else offers that. IF Buick can show better resale values, I'll definitely consider it. It is a sharp looking car that is well priced. I question the wisdom of putting a 1970's era engine in a supposedly modern car..I understand the need to make the car appeal to Buick's customer base, but aren't they trying to grow their sales?

You might complain about the Auto mags all you want, but their opinion matters. Ask Infiniti how much public perception hurt them in 1990 when they went head to head with Lexus. $30,000 is still a good amount of money for a car, so it had better offer all the options the competition does. I'd benchmark it against the Avalon and Acura TL.

SV

imidazol97 · October 2005

I'll bite.

Which model was the LaCrosse rental? I would assume it's the base model with the 3800 motor? If you really are used to driving one of the larger Lexuses, I am sure it was a come down.

Your Park Avenue and Electra were from a different era. Let me tell you about my Fords... Talk about your 2002 Park Avenue or your 2004 LeSabre to compare to today's cars. I'll give you that things weren't built as well in the 80s and 90s.

Your purchase of a higher-priced Lexus and finding it reliable and economical in the long term reminds me of a story about a lady buying a higher-priced item for her home or something rather than the cheapest. She said, "I'm too poor to afford to buy cheap. I need something that lasts."

sv7887 · October 2005

Hi All,
Well then, let's compare a 2002 Park Avenue to a ES330..You could get a fully loaded ES on the street for for the "starting" price of a Park Ave. Fit and Finish aren't even close. I

I'm comparing the LaCrosse to cars of its bracket, such as the Toyota Camry. A Park Avenue in 02 still retailed for around $40K.I'm making the comparisons based on price. What does a fully loaded LaCrosse sticker for? $32K? That puts it close up against an Acura TL and Lexus ES if anything. Look at the JD Power Ratings for the year 2000. There is a marked difference between the Buick and the Japanese.

Posters here seem to single out Lexus so I gave a return volley. An ES330 ought to hold up just as well as my 1992 LS. And an ES has all of the Lexus advantages I stated in my previous post. The Lucerne will be taking that car dead on. If you expect to compete with Lexus then Buick needs to compete not just on Price, but all the other factors I've listed. You can't argue with the story that the Financials tell. I think a quote from Bill Parcells says it best, "You are what your record says you are."

If anything I do want to buy the Lucerne. It is a well thought out car, but when spending that much money it has to make sense to the consumer. Supporting Detriot is nice, but they've got to build cars that offer the same value, reliability (Which Buick has for the most part) and technology that the imports have.

SV

imidazol97 · October 2005

I asked you to consider the reliability of the cars. I didn't ask for a personal opinion comparison based on list price. I could have bought an 03 ParkA for way below list price.

You also didn't answer my question as to which model LaCrosse.

End of dialogue.

1487 · October 2005

My understanding is NAv will be added later in the '06 model year. We know it will have the feature because it was mentioned in the press release and is shown on the site. There is no FWD auto that can handle the Lucerne's torque. I would assume a variation of the GM/Ford auto will make it to the Lucerne but the initial version to be used in the Aura wont be able to handle more than 280 lb-ft of torque. I wouldnt base a car buying decision on lack of a telescoping steering wheel. Up until last year the SLK convertible had a steering column that couldnt be adjusted period. The Crossfire still has this steering column.

imidazol97 · October 2005

I just can't get excited about the navigation systems. It seems to be a chic item to say you have or to ask about, but I doubt that I would use it. I hear people in other columns comment that some screens are hard to read in light or too small or off to the side. I think I'd just get a Garmin and put it where I wanted it if I wanted to use navi to find something.

vanman1 · October 2005

Lacrosse is an "utter ripoff"?? How do you figure that? The car is a value leader in every way. Perhaps you mis-read the price.

I agree with you though, Toyota is not dying.

62vetteefp · October 2005

still retailed for around $40K.I'm making the comparisons based on price. What does a fully loaded LaCrosse sticker for? $32K? That puts it close up against an Acura TL and Lexus ES if anything

Not to disagree but $33k is where the Lexus ES starts. Add a few items and you are over $35k. LaCrosse starts down at $23K and you can get it up over $33k if you get every option, some of which are not available on the ES.

Nav-There seems to be so many that want this feature but with vehicles under $30k they do not sell. Just to expensive at $2000. Go to a Toyota and Handa lot and see what they stock.

sv7887 · October 2005

Hi all,
I think I had the LaCrosse CX. It was a rental car after all. Still this car stickers at 23K according to the Buick website. I'm comparing it with a Camry that begins at 18.7K. I think it is a fair comparison. Have a look at a Camry and then see where I am coming from. Also the Avalon begins at 26K which is line with the mid range LaCrosse. I see you are an avid Buick fan, but have a look at any review of this car.

I'm sure you can understand that Reliability is one of many aspects in a buyer's decision. It's great Buick has good reliability, but have a look at any JD Power Survey you want comparing a List price Park Ave vs a GS (which also listed around 40-43K at that time). It doesn't matter whether you "could have" bought a Park Ave below list or not. People are going to make their initial judgement on the basis of list price. That is what brings many Mercedes buyers to Lexus..Even though you can negotiate on a S430 listing at 77K it's hard to compete with a LS430 starting at 57K.

Having said all of that, I am a fan of the Lucerne and can't wait to see it in person. They've done a good job on the details, styling, and marketing. It is the first Buick I'm actually excited about. I bought my Electra and Park Ave because they were different, nicely styled, and a pleasure to drive. The resale value and quality issues are what made me look elsewhere. It's clear from all the surveys that Buick is one of the top tier brands in reliability these days..That leaves value.

If anything the Employee Discounts demonstrated to me that the MSRP pricing at GM was out of touch with the marketplace. It's good to see they've been reasonable with the Lucerne. I'd gladly pay $35K for a loaded one.
I'd agree Nav is too pricey for the under 30K bracket. Lexus still bundles it with the Mark Levinson stereo for a 5K package price. It would be nice to have it available, as I think they are doing.

SV

Kirstie_H · October 2005

Let's try to stick to the Lucerne, please! We've got a good Buick LaCrosse discussion going, and this discussion isn't about Toyota/Lexus. Thanks!

robchemist · October 2005

Navigation systems, as they are currently configured, will almost certainly be obsolete within a couple years. Thus, even if I wanted one, I would not get one because of where I am reasonably confident the technology is going. Additionally, GM already has 2/3 of the needed technology already built into the car to make this happen, thus they may be the first to change. I will guess that within 2 years, navigation will be entirely communication based. One will make a request to go somewhere via a cell phone (or, GM's Onstar). (For simplicity, I will assume that the system is based on Onstar.) Onstar will give the location of the car via GPS locator, and directions downloaded. Since the system will be GPS directed, and Onstar can also track miles traveled via the odometer, other options are available via this system. A wrong turn, and an appropriately named "idiot light" comes on (or, the pleasant voice from Onstar tells you that you are an idiot). If there is a turn you need to make in 12 miles, the odometer will measure when you have gone 11, and give you a heads up. This can be combined with the GPS to take account of wrong turns, etc. Thus, I think the DVD based systems, as one can get in the Toyota Avalon for a mere $1600-1900, will be obsolete within a couple years. The only downside to this approach is if you are in an area that lacks cell coverage. Again, evolving technology will probably result in the communications being satelite based. Off topic, but if one compares identically equipped Camry's and LaCrosse's, the LaCrosse is less expensive - see the Lacrosse board, or compare them directly.

vanman1 · October 2005

The base Camry is a stripper with a 4 cyl. engine. Not quite comparable. LaCrosse has a V6, standard ABS & TC, all disc brakes and SABs.

The Lucerne is a value buy for a near lux full size car. I don't think I can swing a V8 but if they have tuned the 3800 ok, I may go for a base CXL in a couple of years.

1487 · October 2005

Engine aside, the Lucerne is actually pretty well equipped. We all know the Avalon's engine whips the 3800 for $27K but if you compare a CXL V8 to an Avalon it stacks up pretty well. If buyers are really concerned about hp and acceleration they would probably be looking at a 300c, not an avalon. Plus you have the avalon's styling to contend with. I think the new large Hyundai looks better than the Avalon and it will be cheaper to boot. Another funny thing about he Avalon is that everyone was making a big deal about the Avalon outpowering the Lucerne V8 but now we know the engine makes 268hp, not 280hp so that argument goes out the window. The hp/l in the Avalon is impressive, but the lack of displacment means it has 52 less lb-ft of torque than the V8. In fact the 3.5L only has 20 more lb-ft than the 3800. The mags may be able to ge 6.5sec 0-60 times, but you wont get that in the real world launching from a stoplight. I am willing to bet in real world acceleration, the Lucerne V8 will be faster than the Avalon. Not that most buyers in this class really care. The best thing about the Avalon is the mileage.

larrymit · October 2005

I'm afraid Buick and GM have a long way to go to keep up with Toyota. I've owned a 1992 Park Avenue, a 1997 Riviera, a 1999 Ultra, and before that various Oldsmobiles back to my first car, a 1972 Cutlass Supreme. I still own the Riviera and even belong to the Riviera Owners Association. Given all that, I think I qualify as a GM loyalist if anyone does.

But when my wife wanted a "mid-life crisis" car, we bought a 2004 Toyota Solara convertible. The car arrived in perfect condition, is impeccably finished, hasn't had a single glitch in almost 20,000, and is often mistaken for a BMW or a Mercedes (at a distance, at least).

Compare that with my last two Buicks. My Riv (which I love and would like to keep forever) has spouted oil leaks in literally every possible gasket and seal, sometimes twice. My Ultra's transmission needed a rebuild at 35,000 miles, just within the warranty, and suffered trim problems that shouldn't happen in a car of that price level.

The Toyota, by comparison, is the first car I've ever owned that didn't require at least a couple of trips to the dealer to finish the assembly that should have occurred at the factory. I've since bought my son a Toyota truck and am seriously considering an Avalon to replace the Riv. I'm hoping the Lucerne will meet the quality and features of the Avalon, hence my attendance to this board. And I'm willing to wait awhile to see. But my Riv has 105,000 miles and with a reported major supercharger rebuild likely at about 110,000, I can't wait too long.

Please, GM, make me a believer again. I never bought a foreign car before my Solara and would prefer to buy American if I can. But...

alpha01 · October 2005

"The mags may be able to ge 6.5sec 0-60 times, but you wont get that in the real world launching from a stoplight."

Actually, Car and Driver is the only mag that does both an advanced launch technique as well as a stop-light thromp of the go pedal (called the Street Start) and their Avalon Touring hit 60 in 6 seconds flat with the advanced technique, and 6.3 in the Street Start 5-60 test. Even Consumer Reports hit 60 in 6.7 seconds in their Avalon XLS. In both tests, the Avalon did really well with fuel efficiency, so youre right, that is definitely a strong suit.

For the record, you seem to forget that styling is subjective. To date, it seems that many are more than willing to 'contend' with the Avalons styling.

~alpha

62vetteefp · October 2005

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosconsumer/0510/12/F03-345652.htm

Per the report by Anita Lienert (not a GM lover here in Detroit) she was fooled

into liking the Lucerne for quietness compared to the lexus. How did it happen? A/B testing was done using microphones and played back thru headphones in a blind test.

1487 · October 2005

I think you need to check the Avalon's sales. It is selling far better than the old one, but it terms of monthly sales is in the same neighborhood as the Lacrosse, which most people are calling a modest success for Buick, if that. I think the Avalon sold nearly 9K units last month. People who buy Toyota's dont care about styling so I wouldnt expect them to not like the Avalon. We'll see how it sells when it has some real competition. Right not, there is no legit competition for the Avalon. The 500 is too underpowered and under-equiped to be considered a true contender.

Those C&D test numbers were way off for all the cars involved. The fastest I have seen the LAcrosse in any other test was 7.6secs and they had it clocked at 7secs flat. The Maxima was also much faster than anything I've ever seen. They had a bunch of ringers. There is no way a 268hp Avalon is running to 60 only .3 secs slower than a 350hp Charger. I wouldnt expect to see similar test numbers ever again.

splatsterhound · October 2005

...Or driven one?

When are they actually going to be on the dealer lots?

vanman1 · October 2005

You have not bought a Buick this decade yet and GM quality has come WAY up since 1999. I suspect if you bought a LeSabre in 2004 for example, you would have had a similar experience to your Toyota. Numbers back my prediction.

My parents have a 2004 LeSabre in fact and they have not had 1 problem with it either. Gas and oil changes only.

vanman1 · October 2005

Nothing here in the Toronto area yet.

1487 · October 2005

I read somewhere the car would be on sale in December.

splatsterhound · October 2005

December? Can anyone else confirm that?

Are they holding 'em in a corral for a larger release, or are they just not making them yet?

larrymit · October 2005

I hope you're right. Now if Buick would just bring out a new Riviera--and not just glue that name on a 4-door sedan or SUV, but bring out a real luxury coupe worthy of the marque.

rake2 · October 2005

Production begins in November, and my understanding is that the cars are then available in 6 to 8 weeks. Early units will not have the navigation system available for some reason.

fin · October 2005

Linear standing start acceleration is generally a function of weight, gearing and torque (plus some other things..). Maximum HP, and the HP curve, mean very little. Remember, it's called "torque steer", not HP steer. If the Lucerne can come close to Avalon in performance, mileage and price for a similar car...it might be a big seller. Can't wait to see one in person. My needs will be after Jan 1st.

garfeinchar · October 2005

I'd have to concur on the Buick quality. My elderly mom bought an '03 Century and put about 3k miles on it the first year. She then got too "scared" to drive and now my son has put over 60k miles on it in 2 &1/2 years driving over 500 miles a week, and it is still solid as a rock - not a single problem at all, still not a rattle or squeak. It's just now needing tires and brake pads. Good car!

rake2 · October 2005

I have a '98 Regal w/ about 118,000 on it. Little in the way of trouble, and I bought the car used w/ 40,000. I'm looking forward to the Lucerne, if Buick finally gets this thing out.

fsmmcsi · October 2005

I am certainly looking forward to the auto shows, since GM and Ford will have numerous significant new vehicles. However, the Lucerne and Impala look very interesting. The Lucerne certainly seems worth the extra cost over an Impala. I am considering replacing my Malibu Maxx with one once they are out and I can take a good long test drive.

As I would buy it, a loaded CXL V8 with KB6 heated & cooled seats, PCJ XM, 9 speaker system, PA2 17' chrome wheels, PCK power seats, memory, PCI proximity sensors, alarm, remote starter, JL4 StabiliTrak, US9 CD6, with speed compensated volume, AN3 front 40-20-40 seats, and XA7 heated washer fluid, Glacier Blue exterior, and Tuxedo Blue/Shale interior, the invoice price (never pay more) is $32,751.

An Impala LTZ with the 40-20-40 front seat and the CD-6 radio has an invoice price which is $6,057 less, but it has the ugly drooping mufflers and lacks the V8, cooled seats, dimming exterior mirror, rain-sensing wipers, StabiliTrak, automatic climate control, and rear proximity sensors.

62vetteefp · October 2005

I saw one at church today. It was a GM company car. Very nice. Looked a bit more aggressive than I thought it would look like. I is not a retro 300C (good thing) and should sell well if priced right.

phillyone · November 2005

According to GM's sales figures the Lucerne is on sale already. They sold 200+ in October. I didnt think the car was out yet.

vanman1 · November 2005

But local deler has none yet.

Could be pre-order sales.

Buick Lucerne

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