Buick Lucerne

chris65amg · April 2005

I think that Buick will shoot and miss with the Lucerne. It looks good, but what good is good in a field of very capable sedans? The specs look pretty good. and it looks like it will have plenty of room, but the segment is becoming crowded fast.

Chrysler's 300 looks nice, and it's a nice car too. It's cheap RWD, and that is a big plus. Also, there's a lot of Mercedes under the skin. Also, a big ol grille.... The warranty is pretty good

Toyota redid the Avalon, and it looks like hot stuff. It's big and powerful, and it looks better than the previous. Also, it's a Toyota. The interior looks almost Lexus-esque.

Ford has the 500. I really think that the 500 was an effort, but size doesn't matter if the engine can't pick it up. I think that the 500 is really spacious, but I can't stand the engine. The 6 speed looks nice on paper, but it is pretty sloppy. Also, the car looks boring (subjectively) :sick:

Hyundai is aiming for the throat with the Azera. I think it'll be the dark horse. 260 hp and as big as an S Class, they say. Also, tons of standard junk. Good warranty.

Buick? Who's Buick? If they're going to come this late to the party, than they better bring their best. The Lucerne looks like a stpogap until they can get the RWD Buick sedan. The Lucerne is nice, but how nice can nice be when all of the competition is great? :confuse:

Using the same word a lot,
Chris :shades:

jchan2 · April 2005

I don't get why all the car magazines are comparing the LaCrosse with the Avalon- isn't that LeSebre/Lucerne territory? Even Buick says the LaCrosse is a "premium midsize car" not a "full-size" like the Avalon and 500.

priggly · April 2005

This is exactly why GM is not doing well. If they are going to re-do the LeSabre with the Lucerne, then they are most foolish if they do not put their best foot forward and this means including features like bi-Xenon headlamps. The market demands nothing less and other comparably priced cars from other makers have them, e.g. the Acura TL and the Toyota Avalon Limited. Otherwise, this will simply be another "attempt" at a great car but without full commitment and with failed execution.

jchan2 · April 2005

The Lucerne could really use some luxury features and a longer warranty...

1487 · April 2005

are you saying people make buying decisons strictly based on the availability of HIDs? That is ridiculous. Except for Acuras, HIDs are not standard on most lucxury cars, even those costing thousands more than the Lucerne. YOu can by and E class or A6 without HIDS at prices near $50K. What about all the features you can get on the Lucerne that arent available on the TL? The Avalon is very well equipped and there is little that can compare with it for the prices. The Avalon offers better value than any Japanese or German sedan in this price range. The Lucerne has remote start, magneride, 18" wheels and heated washer fluid, all features not found on the much smaller TL. In fact magneride isnt found on anything else in this price range, you have to go over 50K to find cars with active suspensions. On top of that the Avalon is not attractive, at least not to anyone close to my age range. The interior is overdone and the exterior needs work. The lucerne looks better from every possible angle if you ask me. My only problems with the lucerne are the 3800 and the 4 speed auto.

How many cars in this segment offer Bixenon headlights anyway? There arent too many.

1487 · April 2005

what luxury features is the lucerne lacking? I dont consider HIDs a luxury features, but aside from that what else was left out?

chris65amg · April 2005

I don't think that the Lucerne will fail because of lack of HIDs. I do, however, think that the Lucerne will not be quite a match for upper end Avalons, probably only because of that old 4-speed they are using. Also, the 3800 is alos showing age spots. I think that the Lucerne's design is a little overwrought, but it's nice looking. Won't beat the Avalon, but it's better than the Five Hundred IMO.

jchan2 · April 2005

How about a 5-Speed Automatic, navigation system, a non-pushrod engine (the 3800, as reliable and durable as it is, is starting to age) and howabout loaner cars when you take your car in for service?

priggly · April 2005

are you saying people make buying decisons strictly based on the availability of HIDs?

No, that's not what I said. I said that the Lucerne must include "features like bi-Xenon headlamps" if it wishes to out-compete the competition and excel in the marketplace rather than being a merely average car which does not get people excited and thereby enhance GM chances of remaining a viable automotive manufacturer.

Incidentally, bi-Xenon lamps are simply the next step in the performance and safety progression of automotive lighting and are, contrary to your assertion, widely found on many upscale automobiles today, not simply luxury automobiles, including the Avalon Limited and Touring models, numerous models of Acura, Volvo, SAAB, Nissan (Maxima), Lincoln, Cadillac, VW, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Jaguar, Land Rover and even the Kia Amanti (in Canada). Bi-Xenons are to halogen what halogen was to tungsten. Do you think Lucerne is well-equipped because it has halogen instead of tungsten bulbs? In the not-too-distant future, all automobiles will have bi-Xenon lamps. GM would do well to lead the pack instead of always following the pack and see that the Lucerne is not disadvantaged competitively by not having them, at least as an option.

Another feature which will make its way into all cars in time is some form of on-board navigation system using GPS technology. This simply represents the next step up from the compass.

As far as the four-speed transmission is concerned, the quality of the GM four-speed automatic transmission is extremely high and the device is most reliable, a fact that is less well demonstrated by some of the five-speed transmissions presently on the market. The 3800 series engine although dated and not cutting edge technology is still serviceable. At least the company is making available the excellent Northstar V-8 and this does represent a marketing edge compared to most of the competition. As far as 18" wheels is concerned, this is a feature whose availability is definitely driven by faddish market trends, resulting in a rougher ride on tires which are more high cost than higher profile counterparts to replace. Not exactly a necessary feature unless you like to race around corners but seen by GM as lending competitive edge in the marketplace.

1487 · April 2005

I will repeat again that the Lucerne has NAv. How can you criticize a car if you havent even read up on it in detail? Who said the Lucerne wont have DVD Nav? Read the press release if you dont believe me.

18" wheels are becoming available on more and more models and it more than a fadish trend. Customers want bigger and better looking wheels on their vehicles and this is not something Japanese manufacterers seem to grasp. I notice that no one commented on the other features I mentioned that are not found on the Avalon. The Lucerne does in fact offer some technology ot found on other cars. HIDS would be a nice addition but they are not standard on most cars in this range or even on cars in the luxury bracket. Bi- Xenon lamps are even more rare. There are very few non luxury models that have bi-xenon lamps.

Most people will chose the lucerne based on styling, features and price. Engine layout and tranny gears are secondary. If the Lucerne is priced right I think it will easilt outsell the Avalon. Its better looking inside and out and offer a V8. I know the hp is lower but people like to hear a car has a V8. It definitely means something.

alpha01 · May 2005

"I know the hp is lower but people like to hear a car has a V8. It definitely means something."

I think you're underestimating the educated vehicle buyer.

Also, what exactly are the features that the Lucerne will have over the Avalon? Really, all I see that you state is Magnaride (which may or may not actually provide a better ride than the Avalon), and styling, which is ENTIRELY subjective. And for what its worth, as much as I think this will be the best Buick yet, if the LaCrosse is any indication, the Lucerne is NOT going to be priced very competitively, and will use incentives out of the gate, JUST LIKE the LaCrosse. (A fully loaded CXS at 34.5K puts a fully loaded Lucerne at or incredibly near to 40K).

~alpha

consult77 · May 2005

The new Lucerne would have to offer category leading features to be a success. My definition of a success is not that it sells to only buyers 55 and up who are often buying their last car, but to traditional import buyers.

The car has no features or qualities which indicate that it will be better than its competitors and several that indicate that it will be worse. The use of an old engine and a four-speed automatic are unforgivable. GM and Ford for that matter refuse to invest in modern engines and transmissions for all their vehicles. Engines and transmissions are the core of a car. All the add-ons are interesting but without having the best basics they don't mean much.

When I read about the Lucerne and I compare it to a current Avalon or Acura TL I don't see any areas where the Lucerne will be ahead. The only way to sell it will to have it cost much less. The Avalon Limited and TL are both about $33k w/o Nav and $35 with it. A very nice Avalon XLS w/o Nav is $30K. The fully outfitted Lucerne V6 model will need to be $5K less to even get anyone's attention. This price difference will need to be on the sticker, not in some shell game of incentives and low interest rates. Ford has the right idea with their pricing of the 500.

It appears that the Lucerne competes with the previous models of the Avalon and TL. It isn't competitive on introduction which means a sure failure. All of this is sad but it just represents a continuation of the string of mediocre GM vehicles.

robchemist · May 2005

Trying to state definitively how a car will do even before it is introduced seems to be silly at best. It will be up to the market place to decide. In terms of specific "features", some people want them, some people don't. You will never satisfy everyone, and the manufacturer is making a bet. For example, some people consider heated outside mirrors a feature. I live in Colorado, and it would be a useless waste of money for me. In 15 + years of living out here, I have never had frost on my outside mirrors.

One "feature" that the Lucerne will almost certainly have is an extrordinarily quiet ride. We bought a LaCrosse, and it is an extremely quiet car, especially for a midsize. Indeed, in a comparison between the LaCrosse and the Avalon (it is somewhere on the Edmunds site), the LaCrosse was the quieter of the two cars. Since the Lucerne will be larger than the LaCrosse, it should be significantly quieter.

robchemist · May 2005

Regarding your thesis on HIDs, I both agree and disagree. They are certainly the next technology level, and they are superior in terms of light output per power input. However, HIDs are extremely expensive. I do a lot of night bike riding, and recently switched from a halogen to a HID light. Comparing a halogen and HID light with the identical battery and virtually identical power consumption, the HID is around $240 more expensive. In terms of manufacturing cost, this would suggest that the HID will be around $100-150 more expensive to make. Thus, a car with HIDs will likely be $200-$300 more expensive to manufacture. Thus, unless HIDs get cheap fast, I am not sure that they will become the replacement for halogens.

An alternative, more recent, technology that could also replace halogens is LEDs. They are very energy efficient, analogous to the HID (I do not know the exact efficiency of the LED vs. HID). However, they suffer from a severe drawback in that they are very sensitive to heat - at even moderately high temperatures, they cease to function efficiently. Thus, high power LEDs presently require very sophisticated cooling systems that make them extremely expensive.

62vetteefp · May 2005

Bit confused by this message. The CXS is basically a CXL with the 3.6L engine and a few engine related items like dual exhaust and 17" wheels which every LaCrosse should have anyway.

62vetteefp · May 2005

Another opinion w/o facts. Buick Motor Division is number 2 behind Lexus for quality. Century best all other mid size cars for quality. Lexus does not exactly put out exciting cars. Lucerne will have a very premium sound system (think something like levinson) and nav will be available if anyone cares since it is not selling to well anyway.

1487 · May 2005

Please read my earlier posts where I talk about features not found on the Avalon. I have made the statement at least twice and no one seems to be able to comprehend what I've wrote. The Lucerne offers at least three or four technology related features not found on the avalon. The only thing the Avalon offers that you cant get on the lucerne is HIDs and 5 speed auto. My guess is that the Lucerne will get the GM/Ford 6 speed auto next year when it goes into production. GM does not have a 5 speed autp for FWD that can handle this much power. Magneride is essentially an active suspension and if you read any reviews of vehicles that have the feature is improves ride and handling sifnificantly. This is a feature not found on any Lexus or Toyota vehicle and this is its first application on a car this cheap. GM is rethinking its pricing to avoid huge discounts and you can see evidence of that with the Hummer H3 which is priced at $29K. I would expect the Lucerne to be priced accordingly, probably starting at $27K and going up to $37K loaded. That would put a loaded Lucerne on par with a loaded avalon or 300C. Obviously the 300C is much faster but That's about its only advantage.

1487 · May 2005

btw, FOrd and GM are developing a 6 speed auto for FWD as I mentioned in my earlier post.

As for the Lucerne needing to offer category leading features to be competitive, that is BS to say the least. The Lucerne's first mission is to replace the 6 year old lesabre. That fact alone will guarantee it some success. The lesabre has managed to outsell the Avalon for years in spite of the fact it has been unchanged in 6 years. The Lucerne is actually competitive with the avalon so I imagine it will give it a run for it's money. The Avalon is not heads and shoulders above its competition. Sure it has more power and features than a 500, but it costs thousands more. It doesnt offer anything not found on the 300C and it is slower and uglier than the 300C. Basically the new avalon is far superior to the old cars in this class, the Crown Vic and the Lucerne. I would also consider the Maxima competition for the Avalon since its the largest nissan and the Avalon doesnt offer any advantages over the Maxima except size.

The 500 is priced far cheaper than the Lucerne (likely at least) because it doesnt offer many features. The 500 is short of features if you exclude AWD and fancy trannies that cant shift. The Lucerne has far more luxury features and an available V8 that offer more power than Fords upcoming 3.5L V6.

jmw4 · May 2005

Having owned a Lexus ES300 a few years back, and looking at the interior of the new Avalon, I'll take a Buick Lacrosse or Lucerne anyday. With the exception of the high end Lexus products, most Toyota products suffer from "short seat bottoms". In fact, the new Avalon actually has a shorter length seat than the previous model did, as well as no longer having the height adjustment on the power passenger seat. To get a longer driver seat or one comparable to the Buick, you have to buy the Limited which has a power seat extender. From the standpoint of quietness, my Lacrosse CXS is every bit as quiet as the Lexus I had, in fact quieter as the Lexus had a few dashboard squeaks.

johnclineii · May 2005

Since there has been so much concern and discussion about HID and other high tech headlights in this thread and their effects on sales of the Lucerne:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0505/17/C06-184074.htm

perna · May 2005

I was shocked when I saw this car for the first time. It had a very familiar look to it, and then I realized: the front clip is nearly identical to my '03 Nissan Maxima. I mean *identical*.

It's not unusual to see a new car and have it remind you of a different one, but this is downright scary.

alpha01 · May 2005

I'm not scared, because I'm not seeing the Maxima.

Host- Can we change the title of this thread, since theres really no such thing as a next generation Bonneville?

~alpha

Kirstie_H · May 2005

Done. No sense in talking about a car that's not going to happen!

bigunit67 · June 2005

I've seen posted #'s that suggest the HP of the 3800 in the Lucern will be 195. If this is the case, why? I can understand that 'traditional' buyers may not lament the loss of 10HP here or there, but when trying to evolve or even reinvent yourself as a brand, why give the press one more thing to ask questions about? It just seems pointless when bringing out a car that might tip the scales a bit heavier than the one it replaces to rob power from it.

Just one hick's point of view

jchan2 · June 2005

The Toyota Avalon has 280!

chicagodrive1 · June 2005

I think it would be cool if the port holes on the Lucerne vented exhaust as the car accelerates from a stop.

Maybe this will be a dealer option?

johnclineii · June 2005

I think you will find safety regulations prevent such things...

Even the headers you saw of old no longer are installed by dealers...

Not to mention this is hardly the market or image Buick is aiming for with Lucerne...

daecc · June 2005

Anybody know if the Lucerne will have EyeCue Head Up Display? LeSabre & Park Avenue had it, but the LaCrosse doesn't.

chris65amg · June 2005

Even if it does have the Heads Up, (which I thought was very cool in the Cadillac DeVille) I am of the opinion that even though this will be a solid effort by GM and Buick, it will fall short of similarly priced full-size sedans. I think that as soon as the Azera and Lucerne come out, some online auto magazine *cough cough* should round them all up with the Avalon, 300C and Five Hundred and have them all go head-to-head. I bet you a dollar that the Lucerne would come in no better than third. Just my thoughts, though.

1487 · June 2005

Third isnt that bad if you lose to the 300C and the Avalon. Personally, I think there is more to being a good full suze car than hp. the Avalon has 5 more hp, but I don't know that it makes it a better car automatically. everyone seems to be declaring victory for the Avalon just because it has far more standard hp. First of all, if the 300C is any indication most people will get the V8, second of all the Lucerne V8 has a 40 lb-ft advantage over the Avalon. Third of all, the lesabre is popular and it has been out for 6 years so there is a lot of pent up demand for a replacement car.

I dont think there is much poing in even comparing the Lucerne to the 500 because there will be very little overlap between those models. The Lucerne has far more features than the 500 and accordingly it will be more expensive. They are similar in size, but nothing more. The Azera is going to undercut the 300C, Lucerne and Avalon in price so I don't see the Lucerne being the only one threatened by the presence of a 265hp Hyundai.

alpha01 · June 2005

I think you are wrong on a few counts. 1. The 300C is NOT the volume selling 300 model. It is simply the model that gets the most press. 2. The Lucerne V8 has 40 lb-ft advantage over the Avalon. Im curious as to what your point is. The Avalon also has EPA ratings of 22/31. 3. The LeSabre is popular. It also sells enmasse to fleets, whether it be coporations or rental agencies. 4. Is there really pent up demand for LeSabre replacement? The Regal was around for a similar amount of time and I dont see pent up demand driving LaCrosse sales. 5. There is little overlap between the Five Hundred and Lucerne? The Lucerne will have far more features? Im not sure I follow this. Does not the basic Five Hundred come with a 203 hp V6 mated to a 6 speed auto and the Lucerne a 195 hp mated to a 4 speed? They wont both cover the $24K to $29K MSRP range? I find it so funny that GM fans are claiming that the LaCrosse is too small to compete against the Five Hundred, 300, Avalon, et al.... and yet somehow the Lucerne isnt a competitor either...

Perplexing.

~alpha

62vetteefp · June 2005

Exhaust system revisions to make the car quieter? Backpressure hurts HP!

chris65amg · June 2005

""Third isnt that bad if you lose to the 300C and the Avalon. Personally, I think there is more to being a good full suze car than hp""

I don't believe I ever said anything to this effect. I would be deeply gratified if you would not put words into my mouth.

I think that all of this trying to make the car quieter is great, but if the base motor is only 195 hp..... one wonders how quiet such a modestly powered engine could be.

bigunit67 · June 2005

I'm not a techie but have heard that. Also, to softly jab back just a bit, lower HP figures when your primary foreign competition (Avalon) can wring 280 HP from a smaller V-6 than is under the hood of your car can only serve to hurt those "hmmmmm, which car do I like best?" decisions. I want to see Buick succeed, but I've also read they're selling fewer cars than Olds was when the execs lowered the boom on it a few years back...just hate to see them make any obviously head-scratching decisions that invite oddballs like me to question them

62vetteefp · June 2005

There is always the V8 for those who desire the power. The 3.8 will move the car well enough for 80% of the buyers. Yes would love a nice 3.6 DOHC with 280hp as standard but there will be plenty of buyers for the loved 3.8.

1487 · June 2005

I was right on all counts.

1. The 300C is the number one selling 300 model. I have read this in numerous articles. I believe the take rate for the 300C is somewhere between 50-60% total. This is one reason why Chrysler barely has enough HEMIs to go around.

2. There probably wasnt a lot of pent up demand for the Lacrosse because the Regal was never a great selling car in the first place. In case you didn't know the Lesabre has been the best selling full size car for a while. The 300 may have eclipsed it now, but I'm not sure if the 300 is an EPA large car. Fleet or no fleet, the Lesabre has always outsold the Avalon. Based on the success of the Lesabre (as opposed to the lack of success of the Regal) I think it's logical to assume that many people (or rental places) will be happy when the Lucerne comes out and sales will be strong if the pricing is right.

4. There will be very little overlap between the Lucerne and the 500. This a simple point and I don't know how else to clarify this for you. Look at the price of the current lesabre if you don't get it, the Lesabre starts at over $27,000 right now. Granted there are incentives, but the Lucerne will have few, if any incentives when it comes out. I would expect a base price between $27K $28K which is right at the of the 500's price range. The 500 is the same size as the Lucerne, but in terms of price it competes with the Lacrosse. There is no way the Lucerne is going to cover the $24K-$29K price range. The Lacrosse barely makes it under $24K in it's base form.

5. My point about the Lucerne's torque advantage is that it's pointless to say the Avalon has a better engine because it has 5 more hp when it has 40 less lb-ft of torque. Anyone who can read knows the Avalon outguns the base Lucerne by a considerable margin, but the Northstar and the 3.5L V6 are evenly matched. Everyone is making a big deal about how unacceptable the Lucerne
s engine is, but it's OK for an A4 to offer 200 hp for $28K or BMW to offer 184hp in a 525 for $40K. I dont like the 3800 as a standard engine, but honestly it's not like this kind of thing is unprecendented.

The bottom line is that the only car GM makes that competes with the 500 in terms of price and size is the Impala. The lacrosse, nor Lucerne are good matches with the 500 in a comparison. Why are you so determined to prove the 500 is superior to these two Buicks? The 500 has many positive features, but it looks worse than either Buick and it doesnt offer a lot of uplevel features besides it's 6 speed auto and AWD.

1487 · June 2005

What does the amount of hp have to do with engine noise? If you want to know how loud the 3800 would be in a heavy car, than drive a Lesabre. Buicks with the 3800 are very quiet and I don't think that will change with this car.

dispencer1 · June 2005

I don't know that a Lucerne will attract many Avalon buyers. Toyota people are funny. They aren't cross shoppers. They think that Camrys are the best all around car and that the Avalon is a step up in Luxury. Solara is a Lexus that is mis-named. They like their Toyota dealer -are used to paying through the nose for everything they buy and don't object in the least to all of the "dealer services" that Toyota pushes. In short they love Toyotas. Are they going to jump on a Buick or 500 or 300 because of price or engine or anything else? I doubt it. Toyota has a great marketing strategy and Camrys outsell everything. I wouldn't have a Toyota on a bet and I would buy a year old Deville over a new Lucerne anyway so I'm not a Lucerne buyer (I am a LaCrosse buyer though -it is going to be a lot better than my old Malibu) but I really don't know how many people who are considering Avalon (or Lexus) will look at a Buick. If I were talking comparison I'd concentrate on competetive GM, Ford, or Chrysler products.

62vetteefp · June 2005

Lacrosse replaces both the Century and Regal. Just a few years ago they sold almost 250,000 cars a year. However after letting the cars wither with no changes volume dropped. At the beginning of their lifecycle it was primarily retail. In the end their was a lot of fleet.

Lesson is in todays world you cannot wait 9 years for model change. It kills.

chris65amg · June 2005

""Lesson is in todays world you cannot wait 9 years for model change. It kills.""

That's so odd, because I remember not too long ago when car makers would take a car and keep it the same with relatively few tweaks for many years. It is true, however. 6 years is the limit IMO, and that's only if the model is really revolutionary when it comes out or sells in great vast volumes.

62vetteefp · June 2005

Competition!!!! Used to be just 3-4 big guys. Now there are over 20. When there are so many new products to choose from each year you have to improve to survive.

herotakesafall · June 2005

Talk about overgeneralizing much. My Chevy and Toyota dealers have always been excellent and ready to deal, and my Dodge dealer is the one that pushes "dealer services."

navigator89 · June 2005

It is true, however. 6 years is the limit IMO, and that's only if the model is really revolutionary when it comes out or sells in great vast volumes.

Totally agree with you there. The second generation Honda Odyssey, released in 1999 was one of the best vans available even in 2004, after spending 5 years on the market. The Odyssey showed how Honda really owned the minivan market even with a 5 year old design. The Odyssey truly revolutionized the minivan market with its driving dynamics, as well as the fold flat third row seat that everyone is copying now.

However, IMO the a car should be redesigned after 5 years max, otherwise there's trouble. Look at the Cavalier. Chevy kept that design, from 1995-2004 and during the later years the Cavalier was completely outclassed from other economy cars. Hope

alpha01 · June 2005

1. Show me the article (s).

2. The LeSabre outsells the Avalon and when it becomes the Lucerne, no doubt will continue to do so. That said, the Avalon was projected at 85K units/year and Toyota has had to up capacity to the current Monthly Run Rate equal to 120K/ year. Thats pretty impressive to me, especially when you consider that vehicles like the LeSabre (and LaCrosse) sell at substantial discounts.

3. The Avalon's 3.5L engine is a better engine than the Lucerne's 3800 based on power and fuel efficiency. The Avalon's 3.5L engine and the Lucerne's 4.6L V8 will likly post similar acceleration numbers (although the Bonneville GXP with the Northstar is considerably slower than the Avalon, according to Car and Driver), but I'm hard pressed to believe that the Northstar will provide the same fuel efficiency as the Avalon.

4. When you speak of size and pricing, do you think its a good thing that a Lucerne V6 will be more expensive than the similarly sized fully loaded Five Hundred/Montego? That doesnt strike me as something good, since it remains to be seen which is the better vehicle, and the Fords certainly arent anything to scoff at, with great interior room, visibility, strong build quality, excellent value, solid crash scores, and available all wheel drive. That the LaCrosse is $24K in CX trim without ABS, side airbags, steering wheel audio, alloys, and power driver's seat (or any combination of those!) should be an embarrassment to GM.

5. IMO, it is not acceptable for the 40K 525i to have the 184 horse engine. (Thats being replaced by the 214 horse 3.0L, though, I believe). The Audi is plenty quick with its 200 horse base engine, and still.. we're talking about vehicles that dont have to adhere to the rules of the large sedan segment.

6. I have high hopes for the Lucerne, just as I did for the LaCrosse, which despite many missteps is one of GMs better efforts, especially in terms of interior quality and construction. I just hope that the Lucerne doesnt feature the same pitfalls as the LaCrosse, meaning too many compromises. The lack of a competive, modern base engine, as well the possibility of high pricing and huge discounts, seem to indicate that the Lucerne will follow the same path.

I just wonder why the General couldnt employ either the newer, more impressive 211 hp 3.5L or the 240 horse 3.9L V6 as the base powerplant.

~alpha

imidazol97 · June 2005

>Lucerne V6 will be more expensive than the similarly sized fully loaded Five Hundred/Montego?

They're not competitors. The 500 is a different category of vehicle.

> The Avalon's 3.5L engine is a better engine than the Lucerne's 3800 based on power and fuel efficiency.

Many buyers of LuCerne will be LeSabre owners. The 3800 is a strong, economical engine and that will be fine for their driving and needs. Some will choose the quicker and geared for performance optional engine.
It all comes down to the final gearing ratio how people will perceive the performance of the motor and the economy it will deliver. What's the final ration on an Avalon with the engine you mentioned?

Just as many people are happy with a 2.4 4-cyl in a Camry for their needs, many will be happy with the great 3800 engine and 4-speed transmission. I will.

chris65amg · June 2005

""They're not competitors. The 500 is a different category of vehicle. ""

People will inevitably cross-shop them. At least the base models. And they may end up with a Five Hundred! Just because a car starts at so many thousands more or has a different target audience doesn't mean a hill of beans to someone who may be shopping for a full-size sedan, instead of people like us who analyze these things. I think that the Lucerne is probably more likely to be cross-shopped with the Montego, though.

"The 3800 is a strong, economical engine"
However it is outclassed by even Ford's 3L Duratec.
It seems strange that the Big 3 are putting such tiny engines in their base model large sedans. The 300 only has 190 something, the Ford barely breaks 200, and the Lucerne only has 195.

Horsepower aside, GM has said that they want Buick to have more of a premium audience. Will the Lucerne do it for them? Possibly the V8 model, but I can't be sure about the base model.....

""that will be fine for their driving and needs""

Who is "they"? Buick needs to broaden its appeal. The engine and transmission are at the core of every car (and in some cases, they are the car). Buick can't have this combo for what is considered a more premium full-sizer than the Five Hundred or Impala.

imidazol97 · June 2005

>"The 3800 is a strong, economical engine"
>However it is outclassed by even Ford's 3L Duratec.

You mean the 3800 with a fairly flat torque curve that is above 210 lb/ft at 1500-2000 rpm is outclassed by the Durtec that everyone says is too wimpy? The Duratec has 207 lbs/foot at 4500 rpm for max (who knows what it is at 1500-2500 rpm--anyone have a torque curve for that engine to post) and the 3800 has 230 lbs/foot at 4000. The 3800 is a strong motor at low speeds whether someone who hasn't driven it thinks so or not.

>Who is "they"?

I believe reading the original paragraph the antecedent of "they" is buyers at the beginning of the paragraph. Why do I feel you are nitpicking? Grin.

thematrixhasu · June 2005

it did not loose to a 300c it lost to a 300 limited, i know you might say oh whats the difference, about 5 to 11 thousand dollar difference.

alpha01 · June 2005

Theres also an element called refinement. I believe that is how the Duratec outclasses the torquey but thrashy 3800. GM's 3.5L in the Malibu, for example, I've found to be more refined even. And in terms of performance, according to Car and Driver, the Five Hundred Limited 6A can hit 60 in 7.9 seconds. Do you really think a 195 horse 4A Lucerne is going to best that?

~alpha

imidazol97 · June 2005

>the torquey but thrashy 3800.
It's apparent you've not driven the 3800 in a LeSabre. End of discussion.

Buick Lucerne

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