Buick Lucerne

62vetteefp · February 2006

First I loved my job and things were going great. I felt I was making a big difference in the product to the better and had been in many different jobs over the years. I left because they were offering buyouts at half pay for two years and decided to not employ a nanny anymore and stay home with the kids. Wife has an excellent job with GM with great potential to be high enough to be in the newspapers some day! Sorry I left but I have a new great career!

1487 · February 2006

You seem to have a lot of inside information. Do you know how much longer the 3800 will be around. I read on another website that it will be in production until 2008 which is a long time from now. Of course, that doesnt mean it will be in the Lucerne until that time, but it is possible. I am thinking it will soldier on as the base engine for the Lacrosse and GP until it's death. I hope that is the plan.

bigdaddycoats · February 2006

Sounds like a great decision. I left a job at Kmart HQ 4-5 years ago to stay home with the kids - wife had a good enough job and paying for day care and having others raise our kids was such a waste. I would not trade the opportunity of being with my kids for anything. I now work part time and am in the process of earning a masters in teaching. You must live in the Detroit area like me.

62vetteefp · February 2006

you got out in time? Kmart hq I think is gone? Live right down the street. I can never work for GM again but I have multiple degrees in Engineering so I can always find a part time job in a few years once the kids are in all day school.

62vetteefp · February 2006

I do not give out inside info that I have that is restricted. I do want GM to suceed and do not want to do anything to hurt it. I do not know the restricted plans for the 3800 but either the 3800 will go away first or the LaCrosse will! If it is the 3800 first I do not know what they will do but I would guess either make the 3.6 base and take ~$1500 base price increase due to engine costs and the stuff that goes with it or put in the 3.9L at 240hp. The 3.6 could go up to the latest improved HP around 270 (see Enclave). This would probably happen around '08 or '09?? Do not really know. If Lutz really wants Buick to become more premium making the 3.6 base would be the thing to do but it would hurt sales due to price increase.

But then again the 3800 may stick around until the new LaCrosse comes out?

alpha01 · February 2006

Theres a well written article in the newest issue of Fortune... on GM's... fortunes, or more specificially, the plan to restore them.

~alpha

62vetteefp · February 2006

read it last week. if you go to the "Styling, will it save GM" forum a lot of the article has been covered there. Bottom lne is that most of the vocal press has written off GM. GM says it is not going bankrupt. Who do we believe? And whos fault is it really?

keith3 · February 2006

I have been following this engine thread with interest as I have a V6 Lucerne on order (invoiced to dealer last week - should be here any day now). I have two comments and one basic questions:

1. Last summer we looked at replacing my wife's car. I test drove the Lacrosse, comparing 3.8 and 3.6. To my surprise I liked the 3.8 better. Plus it was cheaper, a bit lighter and had better fuel economy. Admittedly my focus is on normal driving, not winding it out to the max. And maybe I was swayed by the price. But I honestly did not see a clear advantage to the 3.6 - certainly not one that would justify a noticeable price increase. We passed on the Lacrosse, mostly due to small back seat, but I was left wondering what is the big plus for the 3.6? Surely a second or two in the quarter mile can't be the reason - at least not for normal driving.

2. My second observation is about engines and performance. From 1994-97 I worked in Germany. Before going overseas my daily commuter car was a Mercedes 190 with a 2.3 liter four. When we arrived in Germany I bought a new BMW coupe as a commuter. But for my wife, the company had a deal on a Mercedes E Class station wagon with a 2.3 four. The engine looked just like the one in my old 190. This car had been driven for less than a year by an executive they transferred to the U.S. It was well equipped, with a rear facing third seat and self leveling suspension. We bought the car and drove it four years, with a lot of touring, including the Alps and high speed autobahn driving - sometimes with the seats full. It turned out to be a great car - even with the 2.3 liter four. I admit, it was not "quick" (I stayed out of drag races). But it accelerated adequately and would run comfortably at 100+ MPH (the car was more comfortable than I at those speeds, but we did some of that when traffic permitted). Since then I have been amazed at the HP race that is going on.

I should also say that my daily driver is an '04 325 BMW coupe with a standard shift. It has a modern engine and I do enjoy the engine in it. I also like the stability control, sophisticated steering, etc. and would have liked to see them on the Lucerne. But for the Lucerne I'm thinking the 3.8 will be fine..

Bottom line, I am having trouble understanding the fuss about the 3.8 and the call for the 3.6. With your experience in the industry can you summarize for me the real operating advantages of the 3.6 over the 3.8?

bartalk3 · February 2006

Since you worked at Buick, obviously you're the guy to ask about their cars. Here's one question: why did they put a 4-speed transmission in the Lucerne when most cars these days are going to 5-speed and the new Camry will have a 6-speed?

So many GM decisions make it seem that they have a death wish.

evandro · February 2006

I am having trouble understanding the fuss about the 3.8 and the call for the 3.6.

Different expectations, I guess. I drove two LaCrosse back -o-back, one with the 3.8 and the other with the 3.6. My conclusion was that the 3.6 was as strong as the 3.8 off-the-line and stronger in highway passing. Besides, the 3.6 was smoother and sounded better.

I have a Bonneville 3.8 and an Intrigue 3.5 and in these cars one engine is good where the other lacks. The 3.6 was the best of both, IMO, lacking in no usage range.

62vetteefp · February 2006

Would love to have put in a 5 or 6 speed. None was available from the GM parts bin for a FWD. 6 speed is coming soon. Why was it not available? GM did not see the need to spend the money on the tooling yet? So much is invested in the hydro 4 speed and it is a sweet tranny. New 6 speed would cost big big money for the volume. Bad decision on someones part about 6 years ago to not make the investment. Again a 6 speed is coming soon.

62vetteefp · February 2006

Bottom line, I am having trouble understanding the fuss about the 3.8 and the call for the 3.6. With your experience in the industry can you summarize for me the real operating advantages of the 3.6 over the 3.8?

240 hp out of 3.6 L vs 200 out of 3.8L

DOHC gives quieter performance

DOHC if you rev them up give great performance, however the 3.8 gives great torque performance at low RPM where most drive.

You could use a 3.2L with 200 hp and get better mileage than the 3.8L

Also because many "feel" a DOHC is the best way to go for them when in actuallity the new 3.9 with VVT is enough to meet almost all customer expectiations.

keith3 · February 2006

OK, thanks for the input. There is a great article that is related at:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=8025

keith3 · February 2006

I think you are right - it is different expectations. I do remember thinking that the 3.6 was happier at high revs than the 3.8. But we seldom go there in our normal driving.

It is good to hear from someone with experience with both engines. I'm expecting (or at least hoping) the 3.8 will be fine for us, given our expectations.

evandro · February 2006

I'm sure that the 3.8 will serve you well. It's a venerable engine, especially considering that its basic architecture was designed 40 years ago.

Here are its characteristics that I like a lot: low-end torque, low mileage, low oil consumption, idle rumble.

escape15208 · February 2006

at the Pittsburgh auto show. The interior looks much better in person than it photographs. Iwas at first a little concerned with the "little buddah" looking radio pops, but I think it works - it's simple. The Avalon's fussy doors didn't impress me, and the buttons beneath look cheap. I did like Avalon's lighter wood.
This si the first Bucik I've ever found captivating, at least from teh exterior. Then again, I really like the 2002 Q45, and the two look a lot alike.

62vetteefp · February 2006

"little buddah" looking radio pops

I give, what are you talking about? I looked at the radio on the Buick website and wonder?

sls002 · February 2006

As I see it, the FWD 3.6 from the LaCrosse has very nearly the same torque as the 3800. Both engines have about 225 lb-ft, with the 3800's peak slightly higher. The big difference is that the 3800's torque is about 225 from around 2000 RPM's to about 4500 RPM's, then falling off with the peak horse power at 5200 RPM's. The 3.6 has 225 from around 2000 RPM's to about 5500 RPM's falling off with the peak horsepower at 6000 RPMs. The extra horsepower is a result of the higher speeds. The point here is that there is little point in having both engines. In the LaCrosse, the DOHC V6 is a performance option with a higher performance axle ratio and greater fuel consumption. I would say that when the 3800 is phased out and a six speed automatic is available, then the 3.6 might make sense. There are two tunings on the 3.6, one has 250 lb-ft of torque, which would be an upgrade, or middle range V6 for the Lucerne.

escape15208 · February 2006

Sorry, should have said "little buddah" radio bezel. The whole thing (HVAC and radio) looks like a slightly rotund little belly on the dash. It's not offensive in person, but in photos where they show the whole expanse of the dash it looks a little too anthropomorphic to me.

BTW, this 6 speed transmission that many are talking about, is that slated for the Lucerne?

sls002 · February 2006

The six speed transmission was developed for FWD and is going to start appearing in the 2007 model year. The Lucerne's future depends on where GM goes with RWD platforms. I do not know what Cadillac will do with the FWD DTS (DeVille) model. At present the sigma (RWD) Cadillac factory does not have the capacity to build a RWD large sedan in the quatities that the DTS is expect to sell in, while maintaining the present selling rate of the CTS, STS & SRX models. However, GM is developing a RWD platform for midsize cars. They may be developing a plan for larger RWD sedans too. The basic point is that the Lucerne will not get a six speed automatic if they plan to drop the large FWD sedans soon and replace them with a RWD sedan in the next 3 or 4 years (around 2010).

1487 · February 2006

I am thinking the same thing in regards to a 6 speed for the V8. If they drop in the 3.9 or 3.6 in two years or so then the 6 speed could become a reality. I dont see GM developing a 6 speed that can handle the Northstar's torque if they plan to go to RWD in 2008. One option is the replacement of the Northstar with a 270hp version of the 3.6 and 6 speed. Honestly, it would be just as fast as the curretn V8/4speed combo although down low torque would suffer somewhat.

I saw a base model today and the 16" wheels look too small for this car, they do not fill the wheel wells at all.

dieselg4 · February 2006

I saw the base CX, the CXL, and CXS side by side. The CX was embarrassing - bad cloth and a bench seat. It screamed rental. The CXS looks so much better.

62vetteefp · February 2006

I saw the base CX, the CXL, and CXS side by side. The CX was embarrassing - bad cloth and a bench seat. It screamed rental. The CXS looks so much better.

Why do you mention bench seat? Is it a bad looking design?

sls002 · February 2006

The bench seat is an extra cost option. However, the CX model is the low end and is aimed at the LeSabre and rental market. Rental cars are needed. I do not think that there are manufacturers that build just for the rental market. One can rent almost anything that is sold including Mercedes, BMW and Audi, so why not a Buick.

fsmmcsi · February 2006

Good point about Horsepower and torque. Just quoting and comparing the peak figures misses most of the useful information. You need to compare the curves. With everyone now having fancy computers with fancy graphics capabilities, I don't know why we are not all displaying and discussing the curves, although it sure would help if Edmunds or others would publish the horsepower and torque curves with their reviews and/or specifications sections.

I receive C&D electronically and was just re-reading their March review of the Lucerne. They picked a dull gray car with a dull gray interior, yet the car is stunning in many of the other colors - the light blue with the blue and gray interior, the cranberry red, and so forth. By the way, who else is glad to see more colors than than tan, gray, and black creeping back into the interior selections?

I rented a DTS for three days several months ago and did not like the jumpy initial throttle response, hints of torque steer, and the fact that I had to lean way far out the driver's door to grab the handle and close it (I'm not short). I did like the nice, but quiet V8 rumble.

The Lucerne looks better, although the lack of the telescoping steering wheel which does go into the Cadillac coming down the same assembly line may make for a less than comfortable seeting position. Of course, it would not be difficult to swap in the Cadillac part, although it is downright silly that GM does not make it standard, as many much less expensive GM cars have it. If they felt they had to, they could make it an extra cost option.

The Lucerne comes with (standard or optional) a nice assortment of very helpful little features such as a dimming exterior mirror and rain sensing wipers. I'll find time to really get a good test drive some time in the next few weeks.

I am tired of waiting for Ford to upgrade teh Five Hundred and Montego, and the Lincoln MKS will apparently not be out for until two years from now, so the Buick has a chance with me.

Forget the Avalon! Algee - sorry to hear about your bad experince with an Avalon. I also made the mistake of falling for the Toyota hype earlier this year when I bought a Sienna XLE Limited for $33,000. I had to sell the junk at a loss of over $8,000 after 4,500 painful miles driving it - the steering column tilted to one side, causing me severe upper neck and back paint, the seat was horrible (the top of the back curved forward), and the sound system was pure junk compared to that in my fully loaded (sunroof, skylight, rear seat DVD, and everything else) 2005 Mailbu Maxx which cost me just $24,003!

Splatsterhound- Thanks for the review.

sls002 · February 2006

GM does make the horsepower and torque curves available on its media website. I am unaware of where to find this type of information for other companies.

rake2 · February 2006

That sounds like a good explanation of the current system. You can record the directions and play them back as you need them. Also, as I have recently found out through experience, you can always just call for directions as long as you have an address. They don't have the ability to look up the address if you know the name of a person and the town, however.

I have also heard that Onstar was going to change, but I don't know when. I was initially told by a GM area rep that Onstar provided that service already, but I think you're right and the real time directions are going to be added. If that does occur, I suspect that feature will be the better way to go, given the costs.

rake2 · February 2006

The system does not give you real time nav directions at this time. At least it didn't when I last used it in late January. I haven't been told anything has changed in the mean time.

62vetteefp · February 2006

The system does not give you real time nav directions at this time. At least it didn't when I last used it in late January. I haven't been told anything has changed in the mean time.

Some Buicks and Cadillacs being built now supposedely have this feature. Upgrades to the ABS sensors and computers were needed.

rake2 · February 2006

So the Lucernes that first came out don't have the capability that ones coming out 2 months later have?

imidazol97 · February 2006

Isn't the cost of Directions on OnStar on the order of 4-500 per year?

Frankly OnStar has left me underwhelmed on my 03 Buick. The cost is too much for the basic "we'll notify authorities if your vehicle is able to call in after an accident if the power is still there and if you're in an area where your car car see an antenna, if..., if....

I just went to the website and found they are claiming the directions will be part of basic service ($16.95 mo) but only in certain areas. I recall when Verizon cell sharing was available in 03. It was only in certain parts of US, very certain parts. I'm not even sure if our OnStar was digital and able to do it. The idea that the OnStar may not work after 07 comes because it requires digital and GM didn't want to put digital into 03 models our OnStar wouldn't even work when the analogue/digital cell conversion finalizes.

Leaves me cold.

62vetteefp · February 2006

So the Lucernes that first came out don't have the capability that ones coming out 2 months later have?

Yes, I believe cars built sometime starting in March will have the capability. Do not quote me on this, just what I read somewhere.

62vetteefp · February 2006

Costs for basic system is $17 a month which is cheap. Read that they unlock ~50,000 cars a month for people who locked there keys in. That is amazing. full boat system is $400 which includes navigation and concierge which allows you to buy concert tickets, get much more. This is too expensive for my tastes since I do not need the service.

Having the new nav as part of the base system for all Lucernes and DTS's at the same price will make it very competitive with in car screen nav. If they keep the reup price at $17 it will sell very well since they already have a reup rate of 70%.

I just went to the website and found they are claiming the directions will be part of basic service ($16.95 mo) but only in certain areas.

Actually it sounds like legal gobbletgoop. Will have to see where it does not cover but imagine those areas will be minimal.

The new OnStar Turn-by-Turn Navigation system advantages include:

Safe, Simple Interactions:

Hands on the Wheel, Eyes on the Road: No data entry or touch screen to distract drivers from the road; OnStar Turn-by-Turn Navigation features convenient voice-guided directions delivered through the radio speakers to guide the driver turn-by-turn to the destination.
Easy to Use: Press the OnStar blue button, give the advisor an address or point-of-interest destination and directions are sent to the vehicle.
Advisor Access: OnStar advisors are available 24-hours a day, seven days a week and 365 days a year.

Smart, Intuitive System:

Route Corrections: OnStar Turn-by-Turn Navigation detects when the driver leaves a planned route and automatically offers updated directions to the destination.
Pinpoint Positioning: The enhanced GPS system utilized by OnStars Turn-by-Turn Navigation, is fully integrated with the vehicles ABS module to deliver a more precise positioning solution.

Accessible and Affordable Navigation:

Available in approximately 1 million GM cars and trucks equipped with GMs anti-lock brake system in Model Year 2007 and will be expanded further within the portfolio in 2008.
Available at a fraction of the cost of other competitive navigation products.

Access to OnStar Services:

Unlike single-function navigation systems, OnStar Turn-by-Turn Navigation comes in addition to OnStars suite of safety, security and peace of mind services.
OnStar services, including Turn-by-Turn Navigation, offer advisor and system interaction in English, Spanish and French.

62vetteefp · February 2006

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2005/09/podcast_onstars.html

fsmmcsi · February 2006

For those who do not know, you can use On-Star for safe cell phone calling. I set my handheld cell phone to forward to my car's phone number if there is no answer, then turn it off when I am in the car. If someone calls, I just push the button on the mirror, the car sound system switches to the call and I and everyone else in the car can hear and speak to the caller. I don't use it for outgoing calls, but it provides the same safe hands-free capabilities for outcoing calls. While I would prefer Bluetooth so that I could just leave my handheld cell phone on, and have it forward to my office if there is no answer, the On-Star service is a cloase second best alternative.

bumpygreens · February 2006

Many LeSabre buyers changed out factory tires for Michelins. Anyone found this to be desirable on Lucerne? Which factory tires do you favor?

rake2 · February 2006

My CXS came w/ Bridgestone Turanzas. The other trim levels I saw had Continentals on them, as I recall.

imidazol97 · February 2006

I would stick with the new tires that came originally on the car. Only if there were a tire that wouldn't balance on a road-force balancer would I switch out.

If I dont' like the tires after 25-30000 I might switch them early--putting up with the last 15% of tread wear I'm going to get ain't worth the cost and the lesser traction of partly worn tires if I want a different tire.

vantheman1 · February 2006

Hi i am going to buy a lucerne cxs, fully loaded, in the next three or four months...i have received two or three quotes, with the last dealer claiming they are giving me invoice price....with something included called a value certificate....but according to edmonds and kelley the invoice price is actually about $1200 lower....normally i would not trust the information from the dealer but this guy strikes me as a straight shooter (he has agreed to show me the invoice) so i wanted to ask anyone out there if edmonds and kelley are usually accurate, and any other thoughts you have on the subject....thanks

sls002 · February 2006

To the extent that both Edmunds and Kelley report the same invoice price, I think they are accurate. However, the invoice price is not the actual cost to the dealer. What the car actually costs the dealer depends on how long they have the car before selling it; which determines how much interest they have to pay for having it sitting in their inventory. There are also costs for operating the dealership too. What you want to know is how much for a car that you want to buy. With some quotes for specific cars, you can decide which dealer is giving you a good price. A $1200 mark-up is not bad, but you should be aware that there is a "hold-back" too, which is money that the dealer can get back if his interest charges are less.

dandydon2 · February 2006

I'm planning on buying a CXL V8 as soon as I find out what the screen nav system will cost. I'm guessing it will add $1,500 to $2,000. I have a dealer who will sell me the car for $300 over invoice. Has anyone found a better deal and if so, in what part of the country? I live in Oregon.

vantheman1 · February 2006

thank you...i am planning on ordering the car, so it would not be in the inventory....i assume that makes it cheaper for the dealer...the dealer now explains that the extra cost above edmunds listed invoice is for advertising fees in the region....and has adjusted the offered price to me to $800 above edmunds listed invoice....thanks a lot for your help....the guy who got the $300 above invoice sounds like a great deal to me, as i have been doing a good bit of work to get the quote i got...it does seem that the initial demand for the lucerne gave the dealers some advantage at first, which seems to be fading now....

rake2 · February 2006

I bought my CXS in December at 400 under invoice, because my brother worked at the dealer. Even at that price, I paid about 39,500, including taxes and tags. I think the car itself was about 37,400. That was before GM lowered the price on all of the cars, however.

By the way, I went online and found a place that would allow me to request quotes from multiple dealers. The best I had gotten through that route (I left my brother's dealer off that list) was 200 below invoice. I am in the Philadelphia area.

vantheman1 · February 2006

thanks for the information rake...i live near harrisburg so i might consider getting better offers in philly...take care

vantheman1 · February 2006

the price i have been offered for a fully loaded CXS (absent the nav of course) is 37,309 excluding tax tags

sls002 · February 2006

Dealers do not work for General Motors, they are independent businesses. As such they have to expect to charge enough for the car they sell to make some profits. The invoice price is close to the cost to the dealer, with in GM's case a 3% hold back charge I think. The hold back is an additional charge that the dealers may get back.

As far as ordering a car goes, if the dealer has a car in stock sort of like you want, then it is not cheaper for him to order you something else. He is still paying interest on the unsold car that you could buy right now instead of waiting for a special order to come in. Still, from my point of view, if I am buying a new car, I would really like to get mostly what I want and not take something in stock that is not at all like I want. My 2002 Seville was the last 2002 model that my dealer (now out of business entirely) had, the rest being 2003 models. The car had a premium luxury package, so was very well equipped, and I would only like to have had a six CD changer in the armrest. Actually what I would really rather have had was an equally nice station wagon, but GM does not make one.

sls002 · February 2006

I do not see that the nav is going to be available. The markup, perhaps including hold back, may be $1900 on the base CXS model. Options will add on. A $1900 markup is not bad. However, the dealer may have some under the table incentives from GM, so they may offer a better deal. However, for us to expect dealers to sell cars below invoice is unreasonable, unless we know that they have incentives that would allow them to do that.

dandydon2 · February 2006

Hi,
I'm surprised to hear that any dealer would sell a Lucerne at UNDER invoice, since the only incentives they have at the moment (far as I know) are for reduced interest rate loans. I haven't shopped around the Internet looking for prices, would you tell me the website name you used to get multiple quotes? (I'm the guy who mentioned that I got a quote locally for $300 OVER invoice.) Thanks.

dandydon2 · February 2006

Hi,
re your mention that you didn't see that the nav is going to be available: I received an email reply from GM the other day that included the following "The Navigation System for the 2006 Lucerne will be available to order approximately in March or April 2006."

rake2 · February 2006

Can't remember for sure, but I think it was through Edmunds.com that I asked for quotes. You have to select the car and options, and I think you can select up to four dealers. I tried to see if I had any of the emails saved, but I do not.

Also, it is my understanding that GM has reduced the price on the car as of early January. My retail price was about 39,500, but they sold it to me for somewhere in the range of $2,000 less - I'll pull the paperwork out of the car if you really want to know. My understanding was that the retail price dropped about $1,500, so I would think that the invoice price would be reduced as well, but I may be mistaken there. I'd definitely try to determine whether the GM reduction in sticker price also represents a reduction in the invoice price. The check I wrote to pay for the car, including taxes and tags, was $39,264.

Buick Lucerne

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