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MazdaSpeed3: Styling Impressions
callmedrfill
Member Posts: 729
After having driven the new Mazda 3 and seen reviews, I want to hear speculation on it's future cousing, the MazdaSpeed 3. This car the (3s sedan) is probably the closest facsimile to the 325i I have yet seen, in looks, size, poise, and handling. Very refined, similar dash to BMW, good smooth power but you could tell this car is planted! Very impressive.
What I loved was that it was so quiet and the power wasn't peaky (Honda) or loud (Corolla XRS) that it moved like a car with a larger engine. Which it does have, with 2.3 liters compared to the comps' 1.8-2.2 engines. My question is can the (ancient) Duartec V6 fit in the 3?
The power is right on the competition (220HP vs. SRT-4 230HP, Cobalt 205, XRS 170HP, WRX 227) A V6 would offer a nice marketing advantage. And I doubt Mazda will spend the coin to make 2 seperate super-4 engines of different size and strength for the 6 and 3.
So what's the story?
DrFill
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It is supposed to be FWD, not AWD as in the MS6.
Also, I think it will debut in 2006, not 2007.
I believe that if Audi can fit a 4.2 liter V8 in an A4 (not much bigger than a Mazda3, but bigger), Mazda can make a small six work.
Expect the unexpected from Mazda.
' DrFill
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However, in a lighter vehicle, without AWD, the problem is putting the power down. It they add a limited-slip differential, and some suspension mods, the power reduction can probably stay somewhere around 250...right on par with the latest SRT-4. Too bad the price will be much more than the SRT-4.
Mazda Gets Ready to Launch 256-horsepower "Hot Hatch" Version of 3
Date Posted 04-20-2005
HIROSHIMA, Japan — Mazda is readying a 'hot hatch' version of the Mazda3 — and we're talking jalapeño! The 3 MPS (Mazda Performance Series) uses the same 2.3-liter engine as the bigger 6 MPS, and this could make the car the hottest hatch on the market.
The 6 MPS puts out 256 horsepower — way more than the VW Golf GTI (197 hp) or the forthcoming Opel/Vauxhall Astra VXR (237 hp). This should give the 3 MPS a 0-to-60 mph time of below 7 seconds — blistering performance.
The 3 MPS will debut at the Frankfurt Motor Show in September and will go on sale shortly after. Its aggressive styling affirms Mazda is quickly shaking off its fuddy-duddy image, helped by the RX-8 and MX-5 sports cars.
Considering Mazda's mis-statement of RX-8's horsepower and the delays in getting the Mazdaspeed6 to market, I'm taking a "believe it when I see it approach."
Is there any interest in the Mazdaspeed6? Am I the only one put off and disappointed by the unexplained delays?
Do you know whether it was to be built in the Hofu factory in Hiroshima which was damaged by fire a few months ago? That might explain some of the delay.
Meade
The Mazdaspeed3 could be a nice competitor to the Audi A3 (at least for me).
Also, what would you consider to be the major selling feature? Is it the increased horsepower or is it the "package"? The SP23 looks like a neat package but with the same 160 hp engine of the s model. Is the Mazdaspeed 3 be an SP23 with a turbo?
Also, to which cars would you compare the Mazdaspeed 3. Is it in the Subaru WRX and Acura RSX Type S league or somewhere else? This league is much pricier than the current Mazda3 lineup but, I find, Mazda quite often offers more value than its competition.
My take: if the Mazdaspeed 3 offered the perfomance quoted in the media (200+hp) and was priced under a Subaru WRX or Acura RSX Type S, this could be a very hot product.
As for the competition, the WRX may be a strech. Most reports about the mazdaspeed3 say FWD. This will be a setback if you are cross shopping the two cars since the power numbers should be the same. If I were to give competitors, I would say the RSX Type S, GTI, SRT-4, and as a bit of a stretch the Cooper S.
Beside's the back seats that dont fold no more, the MSP6 show's conviviality and good manners for the whole public. Hable to show performances reserved for more tuned sports cars, the MSP6 can perform remarquably well... available probably this summer at a base price of 35,000.$... Real good deal!"
4stars out of 5stars
0-100km/h = 6,6sec.
4c. 2,3lter ID, turbo
274hp at 5500 rpm
280p.f torque at 3000rpm
fuel consumption 8,8l/100km
some other comments:
"at 100km/h (62mph) the motor seems to be relaxing at 2,300rpm"
"It can go from 80 to 120km/h in 5,3 seconds"
"much of the power is gain between 2,500 and 4,500rpm, in third gear, you can easely accelerate from 60 to 100"
"red line starts at 7000rpm"
4 cylinder contenders (in price order)
Mazda 3 s
U$18.7; 2.3 L ; 4 cyl. ; 5 speed; 160 hp ; 150 ft. lb. ; weight = 2826 ; EPA= 25 / 32
Mini Cooper Type S
U$20.4; 1.6 L ; 4 cyl. ; 6 speed; 168 hp ; 162 ft. lb. ; weight = 2679 ; EPA= 25 / 32
Neon SRT 4
U$20.6; 2.3 L ; 4 cyl. ; 6 speed; 220 hp ; 245 ft. lb. ; weight = 2900 ; EPA= 22 / 30
Mazda 6 i
U$21.5; 2.3 L ; 4 cyl. ; 5 speed; 160 hp ; 155 ft. lb. ; weight = 3102 ; EPA= 23 / 31
Acura RSX Type S
U$23.7; 2.0 L ; 4 cyl. ; 6 speed; 200 hp ; 143 ft. lb. ; weight = 2840 ; EPA= 23 / 31
Mazdaspeed 6 (for comparison)
U$28.0; 2.3 L ; 4 cyl. ; 6 speed; 274 hp ; 280 ft. lb. ; weight = 3589 ; EPA= 20 / 26
6 cylinder contender
Volkswagen GTI
U$22.3; 2.3 L ; 6 cyl. ; 6 speed; 200 hp ; 195 ft. lb. ; weight = 3036 ; EPA= 21 / 30
If the Mazdaspeed3 gets approximately 220hp and 200 ft lbs.of torque, weighs under 3000# and sells for under U$23K this will be quite a package.
There is no way the Mazdaspeed3 will compete with the Mazda6i. The 6i is much slower and much larger than the Mazdaspeed3.
Actually the 256 hp is a number reported (see post #7 for the Edmunds report) but not officially stated by Mazda, as far as I know. In any case, as kronogoose has pointed out Mazda has occasionally exaggerated its predicted horsepower, so some skepticism is warranted and hence my and kronogoose's more conservative number, 220hp.
Mazda6i ... is much slower and much larger than the Mazdaspeed3.
Agreed. The reason the Mazda6i is in the lineup of contenders is to show what can go wrong when it was upgraded to the Mazdaspeed6. The Mazdaspeed6 remains a 4 cylinder but with astonishing performance numbers, AWD and other choice improvements. However, Mazda added nearly 500# and inflated the price by nearly 33% (U$6500) also. Was AWD the source of most of the weight and price gain in the MSP6? Wouldn't it be better to have AWD as an option? Here's hoping that the Mazdaspeed3 inherits the best and leaves the rest.
With that much of power it is going to generate tremendous torque steering to the front wheels and the car is going to lose all its sweet handling charm. Have you ever driven a Nissan Altima 3.5 SER or a Maxima? You can feel how a FWD car with 250+ hp can ruin the handling of a car.
It is known that a AWD or A RWD has a better handling capability than a FWD, although there are certain exceptions.
Hmm, would you call the 210 hp Acura RSX Type S a foolish car because it does not have AWD? Making something an option means that you as a consumer have the choice. Autoweek speculates that the AWD will not be offered, I hope they are wrong and that Mazda offers it but as an option:
Mazda is reportedly assembling a 256-hp MazdaSpeed performance version of the Mazda 3 hatchback. The car will use the same 2.3-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engine that powers the MazdaSpeed 6 sedan (Dec. 20, 2004) but loses 18 hp and more than likely won’t get big brother’s all-wheel drive. Look for the MazdaSpeed 3 to debut at the Frankfurt Motor Show in September.
If they do detune the speed for the Mazdaspeed3 from 274 hp to 254 hp (or as I suspect, about 220 hp) could it be because they removed the AWD? This could help segment Mazdaspeed3 in terms of performance and price from Mazdaspeed6 and the other models. Currently, the overlap of the Mazda3 s and the Mazda6 i must be a source of confusion.
In any case, September is only a few months away, so we'll all know the answer about the Mazdaspeed3. Cheers and happy driving this summer!
I envy you.
^_^
GM seems to be ready to move into consolidation mode by using brand pairing akin to Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura and others. This brand pairing helps the manufacturer to consolidate different models into mass volume models and luxury models. The Mazda/Mazdaspeed pairing is one example. This forces the manufacturer to think through their lineup, remove redundant models, and then brand the model according to the target. The Autoline discussion focussed on the current GM mess and its confusing lineup. GM announced plans to consolidate their lineup into one major pairing: Chevrolet/Cadillac. The Buick Pontiac and GMC brands are being brought together into something called the BPG channel and their future is being worked out. Saab and Saturn are on the periphery and seem to be treated as niche products.
This logic seems to be useful not only for the manufacturer but also for us consumers by forcing clear branding. Cadillac is a wonderful success story and if GM can wrestle the rest of their brands into line many observers of the American autoindustry will breathe a huge sigh of relief. Otherwise, the Japanese (and possibly Chinese) behemoths are ready to step in and show them how. Mazda is a wonderful example of an auto company that is thinking through its future production in an intelligent way.
If you get up over 250, it needs the AWD, and will likely become a porker. The FWD should have all thehandling of the 3S, and more.
Torque steer shouldn't be too bad. I think the 3 chassis is prety well designed to control it already. Plus, the turbo helps, since they tend to be slightly soft off the line anyway. The high speed punch will be the payoff.
A FWD model will compete with the COoper, CIvic Si, GTI, etc. The AWD 250HP version (if there is one) would be going against the WRX, etc.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Sounds extremely do-able to me considering the current 5-door SP2.3 has a curb weight of around 2850 lbs. AWD would not only add weight but also add cost and sacrifice mileage. Plus, you'd have to have a higher output motor to offset the added weight/driveline friction just to get essentially the same straightline performance.
I also agree on who the targeted competition should be, although you may have left out the Neon SRT-4. I think Mazda should let the MZSPD6 compete as a more adult alternative to the WRX.
Ford Looking at Hottest Hatch Version of Focus
Date Posted 06-07-2005
COLOGNE, Germany — In Europe, the "hot hatch" is king of the road. And the hatches are getting hotter.
Volkswagen is already planning a super-fast V6 Golf called the R32, but that could be trumped in the 0-to-60 stakes by Ford.
According to U.K. magazine Autocar, Ford is considering a 350-horsepower, four-wheel-drive, six-cylinder turbocharged Focus RS. This would be ready by 2007 and would become the performance flagship for its best-selling range, above the already-announced front-drive, 217-hp Focus ST hot hatch.
The Focus RS would be powered by a tuned version of a new compact straight-six engine being developed by Volvo. The power plant will make its debut in the new Volvo S80 next June. It is shorter than Volvo's current five-cylinder engine — so short, in fact, that it could fit transversely under the hood of the Focus.
Ford executives are evaluating the concept and expect to make a decision before the Frankfurt Motor Show in September.
What this means to you: A 350-hp Focus may sound good, but don't get your hopes up just yet. We have yet to even see the second-generation Focus that's already on sale in Europe, so anything resembling the RS is a long way off.
Ford here in the U.S. has said that car will never make it here, so I wouldn't get my hopes up about this European pocket-rocket ever making it to our shores.
Meade
Ok I have to say this... now we're talking over 200Hp in this beautiful little machine.... where is the DUAL EXHAUST?? Is Mazda a little whoosy??
Am I the only one thinking this? Would others disagree - Hell I think the M3GT should have a dual exhaust.....
Quebec boy.
Why would it need a dual exhaust?
Meade
- Second reason would be because admirers would instantly know your in a MazdaSpeed3 from the back as you cruise away from them.
You do see a dual exhaust on most high performance vehicles, even small ones like the Dogde SRT-4, so is there a mechanical reason? Thats where my theory is a bit iffy, see if there's no MECHANICAL reason ...... well I see your point.
But in terms of aesthetics I do think there is a portion of the population that both likes this, and when they see this... they know you have more than a few ponies under the hood.....
Meade
Can you explain that to me, Meade? Why would an American car company not want to sell its cars in its country? Why would the Mustang roam the biways of North Carolina and the Focus RS be exiled to the autobahn?
And what do you think RS means? Is it something like Rally Series? There are a ton of interesting rally cars in the EU that we only get to peek at on our PCs.
p.s. Hope you're keeping cool, amigo!
Agreed! One is always free to modify one's vehicle at one's own expense.
And just in case y'all didn't understand -- they came standard on the car. I don't mod cars.
Meade
For two write-ups on the A3 go to www.canadiandriver.com.
Mazda should have put more horsepower on the 6 and not even bothered with a speed version. A 6 with more v-6 power would have made it more competitive with the Accord, Camry, Maxima. To me even though the 6 has extra horsepower so much is lost or wasted by not having a bigger engine. To me it is kind of wimpy.
This I believe would give them more of a competitive edge on the 3 - and darn it, they should offer it in a sedan version as well..
Generally, I've always heard that RS stands for Renn sport i.e., *racing* in German.
While I'm curiously following the Mazdaspeed3 events, what I'm really hoping for is a Mazdaspeed5. Now THAT might get me into the showroom!
3 MPS will debut at the Frankfurt Motor Show in September and will go on sale shortly after. - Edmunds
Focus RS would be powered by a tuned version of a new compact straight-six engine being developed by Volvo. The power plant will make its debut in the new Volvo S80 next June. ... Ford executives are evaluating the concept and expect to make a decision before the Frankfurt Motor Show in September. - Edmunds
So, this September we may see both Mazdaspeed3 and Focus RS as concept cars; next summer we may see the super engine for the Focus, and I predict in 2007 both will be in some showrooms, although only the Mazdaspeed3 may reach North American dealers.
WHISPERS: Toyota Planning New 250-hp Scion tC
Date Posted 08-11-2005
TOKYO — The grapevine in Japan is whispering about a hot, new 250-horsepower pure sport coupe from Toyota, coming next year, which would also double as a new Celica in Japan.
Japan's moles say they've uncovered secret plans for a new pure sport coupe from Toyota, apparently based around the Scion tC. The unnamed model, due in 2006, has 2.4-liter power, like the tC, yet is good for a reputed 250 horsepower.
Toyota is aiming at Honda's stellar Integra Type R (the more exotic, faster version of America's Acura RSX). And the idea would also be to inject some extra speed and enthusiast muscle into the tC.
America will soon bid farewell to the Celica, so this new 250-hp sport coupe would be a welcome replacement. Across in Japan, the talk is Toyota would rebadge it as the eighth-generation Celica.
While the Celica as we know it is 1.8-liter, the story goes that this new model would jump up to a special high-performance 2.0-liter motor, which may be called 2AZ-GE.
What this means to you: Biggest problem with Scion? No power. Thus, this super tC sounds super-cool; let's hope it makes it into the showrooms here.
I don't if any Mazda3 owners have looked under their hoods lately, but there is boat of room to cram a V6 if needed. Look at the gap from the firewall to the back of a engine. This car is has the same underpinnings as a Volvo S40 don't forget and they tack another cylinder on the crank with the T5s. I think a Mazdaspeed3 will probably be the 2.3 I-4. They stuck in the Mazdaspeed6. Why build another engine? As for AWD, lets hope.
Meade
So, Meade, does that mean that the more boring an engine gets, the more interesting it is?
Meade – I disagree with you on the V6 configuration for the very fact that it’s V and not an I configuration. V squares off a normally rectangular shaped I engine. So, more or less, a V6 would take up as much room as an I4 (assuming less than 1.0 L difference) between the front tires. The V would take up the balance of the space between the fire wall and the radiator for its size.
Engineers at Ford once toyed with the idea of putting the 2.5L V-6 in the first gen. Focus. Actually, they did stuff it in there; it worked. But repeating it in production was another issue. So, for the SVT Focus they went with a better breathing I-4. The first gen Focus is smaller in size (approx. 2.5”) between the front tires than this new C1 platform found on the new Volvo S40/V50, Mazda 3, & New Euro Focus.
My V-6 Contour was similar in size as the Mazda. Width is identical; length is 6-8 inches shorter (depending on sedan vs. hatch); and the Mazda is a few inches higher. The V-6 in the Contour left little room for much else in the engine bay.
The V-6 is nice, but handling is sacrificed. The weight of the V-6 would cause more nervousness than an I-4 when roads begin to wind. Equal balance front to back and left to right is ideal. The RX-8 is built as such. Equal balance front to back is next to ideal (e.g. Miata and BMW 3). No doubt, a V-6 would definitely need AWD. But the handling would still labor compared to an I-4 AWD.
Mazda should go with an I-4 supercharger and turbocharger: the super for power at idle to 3k rpms and the turbo for anything above 3k. I don’t know where the AWD for the Mazda came from: did they develop a new system or borrow and already existing one? Either way, the Mazda 3 chassis already has an available AWD system available from Volvo. Or they could modify the Mazda 6 version. Either way, 250+ HP deserves AWD to reign in all that power. Without the AWD, the Mazdaspeed 3 is a torque steering POS.