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MazdaSpeed3: Styling Impressions

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  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    The Mazda Canada site has posted the price of the Mazdaspeed. It's interesting to compare US and Canadian prices and to see the markup of the 2007 Mazdaspeed3 over the 2007 Mazda3. It appears that the Mazdaspeed is a better deal in the good old USA!

    - Mazda3 s* (*aka 5 door GT) manual
    C$23400 ; U$17,575

    - Mazdaspeed3
    C$31000 ; U$22,240

    - Markup of Mazdaspeed3 over Mazda3
    C$ 7600 (32%); U$ 4,665 (26%)

    p.s. Considering the price of the Mazda6, the Mazdaspeed3 is a great deal.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Hell no, right now it's just a phone conversation and a couple of emails. It's far from a done deal and not for anything they have on the way right now. It will be for a future order I'm guessing would arrive sometime around Dec/Jan. And they may well be just blowing smoke, but I will find out in the next couple of weeks when I bring my MS6 in to them for a valuation. If they go too low on the trade, I can still make it work by selling to Automax, but will lose more money due to the unfavorable sales tax treatment of leases in TX.
  • kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    Here is my uneducated, unfounded and completely unsolicited opinion: a buyer will always pay a premium price for the latest and greatest model. Wait if you can!

    I predict that the initial enthusiasm for the MS3 will dampen significantly after the release of the Caliber SRT4. Unless Dodge makes a complete blunder, like a manufacturing defect that requires a recall, the SRT4 will dethrone the MS3 as the most powerful (and possibly the fastest) "hot hatch" in the $23K price range. Those who know better, of course, will buy the Mazda. ;)

    If the SRT4's MSRP is at or below that of the MS3, that will keep prices in check. And who knows if some other manufacturer will jump into the turbocharged compact-car arena to keep things interesting (I haven't heard anything, I'm just speculating).

    Me, I'm planning on waiting until September 2007 for a "leftover". If I can get an MS3 for under $20K, I will be very pleased!

    Thanks,

    Greg
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    right now it's just a phone conversation and a couple of emails. It's far from a done deal

    You might have waited yourself out of a deal. If the very positive press continues your dealer will catch on and kibosh the s-plan.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    You are smart to wait. You may well even get a leftover under $20K. However, I don't the Caliber is going to effect MS3 sales much, since they appeal to completely different buyers. Once you get past the numbers game, would more than a few potential MS3 buyers really consider a Caliber. One is an ungainly looking mini-SUV with a crappy interior and tons of unmanaged power. The other is a compact, handling (SCC even says "track car"), with power management, and a decent interior. I see the 5k cars selling well with or without the Caliber on the market.
  • kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    I think you're right--there may not be any real comparison for those who do their research. I can't help but think that 20-somethings (or whatever demographic the MS3 and SRT4 appeals to...I'm almost a 40-something) will cross-shop both, and based on HP numbers alone, some will choose the SRT4 over the MS3.

    I personally was very excited about the Caliber SRT4, until I saw a NA Caliber in person. The looks of the car don't do anything for me, and I can't stand the rear end. The reliability and quality of Dodge products in general are a big question mark to me. To an extent, I'm still intrigued by the SRT4, but I'll need some real-world experience (auto reviews or a test drive) to even remotely consider it over the MS3.

    I would much prefer to own a Mazda product, but in any case, giving the MS3 some competition can only benefit us, the car-buying public. Even though it's not a "hot hatch," I think the upcoming Si Sedan will take a share of the souped-up compact car segment.

    Best of luck on your quest for the MS3! Please keep us updated on your negotiations and of course, your impressions of the car.

    Greg
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    The current issue of Car and Driver drove the MS3 to a speedy 5.3 second 0-60. So much for all that talk about doing just 6.0 seconds!!
  • helmutrothhelmutroth Member Posts: 15
    The 5.3 second 0-60 time is a C/D estimate. In other words, C/D did not measure the 0-60 time and does not know what it will be.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    I saw a brief blurb on the MS3 on C&D.com, but no mention of an 0-60 estimate. They say they will have a write-up soon. Did they do a "first drive" article with an estimate like Motor Trend?
  • helmutrothhelmutroth Member Posts: 15
    C/D named the article "Preview: Mazdaspeed 3". It is not clear to me whether the author drove the car or not. He eludes to driving it but does not explicitly state that he did.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    True, it does stat C/D Est. next to the time, and it is unclear if he drove it or not. I'm pretty sure 5.3-5.7 would be accurate.

    The Sport Compact Car author said the governed torque in 1st, 2nd, 3rd was not noticeable, and gained speed rather quickly. He was very impressed. He did not post a 0-60 time.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    "You might have waited yourself out of a deal. If the very positive press continues your dealer will catch on and kibosh the s-plan."

    If so, I won't cry. Just means I'm driving my MS6 for awhile longer. I really can't justify doing a deal other than S-Plan due to the lost value on the MS6. S-Plan doesn't quite make up for it, but it makes me feel better.
  • daniel99daniel99 Member Posts: 13
    Does the order priority depend on what state the dealership is in? It seems like the west coast would be at the front.
    -Thanks
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    If you factor in taxes the price of the Mazdaspeed3 is about C$38,000 which is C$10,000 more than the Mazda3 Sport GT with manual transmission. Ouch!

    Looking at it another way, for less money one could buy the stylish new 2007 Camry LE V6 with 268hp and 248 ft.lbs. of torque and get better fuel economy while saving money using regular fuel!
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Does the order priority depend on what state the dealership is in?

    nope...it depends on the individual dealerships allocation earnings.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    "Looking at it another way, for less money one could buy the stylish new 2007 Camry LE V6 with 268hp and 248 ft.lbs. of torque . . . ."

    I laughed when I read this, but if you look at the weight of the car, it's really not too bad. Weighs a couple hundred more than the MS3 but a couple hundred less than the MS6. It might more sense to compare it the MS6 given it's weight penalty. And the fact that it's in a TOTALLY different market segment than the MS3.
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    it's in a TOTALLY different market segment than the MS3.

    This is a frequent debate in these forums and I agree with you to a point. However, we cross-shop all the time looking for our preferred mix of options. For example, I think many of us compare the Mazda3 to the Mazda6 which occupy "different market segments". We compare four and six cylinder variants, sedans and hatchbacks, turbos and hybrid performance machines, etc. Automakers know this and respond by mixing it up: so that dowdy "station wagon" now morphs into an AWD sport wagon for the active set, that "family sedan" is now a fire-breathing sportscar, and that sportscar now has rear ("suicide" :surprise: ) doors suitable for bringing the children along. Most of us compare the benefits relative to the cost of vehicles. In other words, most bang for the buck.

    p.s. would it surprise you to find a 60 year old behind the wheel of a Mazdaspeed3, what does that say about marketing segments?
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    "p.s. would it surprise you to find a 60 year old behind the wheel of a Mazdaspeed3, what does that say about marketing segments?"

    Nope. Great car for a 60 year old (or a 45 year-old with 2 kids) whose not worried about status and wants a versatile car that is a freakin' blast to drive. I think it's great that Honda spent all those ad bucks trying to make the Element ("Elderment") appeal to kids and then the retired folks snapped them up. Good to show the Marketing folks that there are limits to their ability to influence the market.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "...(or a 45 year-old with 2 kids)..."

    Damn! You got so close to nailing me it's scary.

    Yeah, the girls really DON'T like climbing in and out of the back seat of my Celica so school dropoffs are a real PITA. I need to convince my wife that I need a more 'sensible'( ;) ) car before we finish paying off the Ody.

    What's cool is that an '07 Speed3 would actually be CHEAPER than my '00 GTS..... :surprise:
  • ambullambull Member Posts: 255
    Well, it sounds like you should have an easy time convincing her then. I don't see how it would be cheaper, but if it is, GO FOR IT!!
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Well, it sounds like you should have an easy time convincing her then."

    Oh, I dunno. My current car still runs like a top and is paid off. The 'sensible' thing to do would be to keep driving it into the dirt; especially since the trade-in/resale value isn't likely to fall much further over the next year or so.

    Who knows, maybe Mazda would release the Kabura at about the time I 'need' a new car....... ;)
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    Comparing the 2007 Mazdaspeed3 against the Subaru WRX, Golf GTI 5 door HB, Acura RSX type S, I must retract my earlier statement and say the Mazdaspeed3 appears to be an amazing deal. Most of these vehicles cost thousands more but don't come close to the power of the speed3. On the other hand, the RSX-S is much lighter weighing about 300 pounds under the speed3 or the WRX! Not surprisingly, the WRX and speed3 are rated among the thirstiest of the group.

    For a cutting article on the speed3 see:
    http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=18339&vf=15
  • daniel99daniel99 Member Posts: 13
    Looks like that article is still in progress. The full story on the MS3 is not available. But the text certainly gives it a black eye on controlling that amount of power. :(
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Those reviewers are the ONLY ones to make that claim. At first I thought it was a principled stand against electronic nannies, but then they go on to praise the Opel's implementation of electronic nannies. I think the reviewers were consciously or otherwise biased against Mazda. Why else be so dismissive of what most other reviewers have found to be a great car? I'd take this review with a grain of salt until the big US mags do their reviews.
  • daniel99daniel99 Member Posts: 13
    I agree. I noticed the link to the full review up on the right. This review is quite different from the other information we have received to date. Since I am looking to buy an MS3, I don't like any bad news. At the same time, I can not dismiss the review just because I don't like what is said.
    Also, this seems to be the first review where the test conditions were not controlled by Mazda. I would have thought Japanese reviews would have been readily available by now and translated. I would like some confirmation, one way or the other, from the big US mags as well.
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    At first I thought it was a principled stand against electronic nannies, but then they go on to praise the Opel's implementation of electronic nannies.
    Where did you see the Opel reference?
  • d_hyperd_hyper Member Posts: 130
    Holden Astra is Opel Astra
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    "Since I am looking to buy an MS3, I don't like any bad news. At the same time, I can not dismiss the review just because I don't like what is said."

    True enough. My point is that the intrusiveness of the power management is very subjective. And yet this appears to be the sole basis on which they dismiss the MPS3. They couldn't deny the objective performance characteristics, yet they say they couldn't wait to be done with it. To me, this smacks of bias. Almost as if somebody at Mazda's marketing dissed them and this was payback. Of course, I have no idea if they were truly biased or not. But it's a lot like the Motor Trend (?) review of the MS6 where the numbers show the MS6 to be 1 or 2 in the comparo and then they dismiss and put it in 4th/5th because they didn't like the interior. Very subjective and to taken with a grain of salt.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    But it's a lot like the Motor Trend (?) review of the MS6 where the numbers show the MS6 to be 1 or 2 in the comparo and then they dismiss and put it in 4th/5th because they didn't like the interior. Very subjective and to taken with a grain of salt.

    Ahhh, I remember that article, and the fiery debate in the MS6 thread. M/T also said the TSX and Accord V6 sedan handled better then the MS6, and the Jetta GLI came in first?. I'm wondering if they even drove the MS6!
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    I think the reviewers were consciously or otherwise biased against Mazda. Why else be so dismissive of what most other reviewers have found to be a great car?

    The article did not seem biased to me. Unlike some other authors it sounded like this reviewer actually drove the cars and did not just quote back manufacturers marketing messages. In comparing "hot" "red-blooded hatches" Bill McKinnon may have become more passionate (rather than dispassionate) and emphasized certain aspects to illustrate the differences between otherwise excellent vehicles.

    Several people here have been wondering what would happen if an extra 100 horses gets plunked into the Mazda3. Would there be torque steer? Would AWD be necessary? Would the fuel economy of the regular hatch be blown sky high? Would the price be astronomic? A review like this shows that Mazda and the other manufacturers listed were successful to varying degrees addressing these issues. Personally, I still think the Mazdaspeed3 is impressive but now I have something to check out in the test drive. Bring on the reviews! Bring on the test drives!
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    "The article did not seem biased to me. Unlike some other authors it sounded like this reviewer actually drove the cars and did not just quote back manufacturers marketing messages."

    Sure, a personal test drive is always best, but I may be about to make the leap and try to secure a deal without a test drive. Here's why. There have been at least two US 1st drive articles that were clearly not just marketing echo: SCC and MT. They both drove the car at Laguna Seca where any kind of serious torque steer or other power management problems would have shown up and been noted. Instead, nothing but kudos for the system.

    And the Oz article didn't just emphasize differences, they actually dissed the MSP3 and said they were glad to park it. That is subjective and personal.To show how important the personal preference/bias of those reviewers was, a second article in the same Oz publication gave the MSP3 the nod in a comparo with the much more expensive and refined R32. Again, one would think that any serious complaints about the MPS3 power management system would have been mentioned, especially in comparison to a smooth and powerful AWD V-6. Which Oz article was more credible, the first or the second?
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Correction to the above. I re-read the MT 1st drive article and there's not as much substantive comment on the drive as I thought and no mention of where the test drive took place. I now place it in the borderline marketing echo category.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Here's another real "hands-on" review done here in the States (at Laguna Seca).

    http://cars.ign.com/articles/730/730560p1.html
  • daniel99daniel99 Member Posts: 13
    Nice article, inline with the other Laguna reviews. First mention I've seen of upgrade options. I don't see anything on Mazda's web site, but I'm betting it is similar to the MS6 offerings.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Seems like Mazda had a little pow-wow for journalists to tear up the Mazdaspeed3 at Laguna Seca, a pretty tough track I must say.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    makes sense they'd do it at Laguna Seca.....after all, it's not called "Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca" for nothing.... ;)
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    Definitely a positive review. I did not find it especially informative and sometimes almost amateurish (they did not take notes and forgot to bring a stopwatch?). Also, I found it hilarious that the Mazdaspeed3 has a faster cousin!

    Mazda's MazdaSpeed parts department came up with a full catalog of parts for the MazdaSpeed3 -- and we drove it. We guess the official name of the car is the MazdaSpeed MazdaSpeed3, but we'll just call it "fast". The engine has been opened up, which gives the car a sweet blow-off valve sound and an extra 30 horsepower. The suspension has been stiffened and the tires have been swapped out for lightweight wheels wrapped in even stickier rubber. In our few laps behind the wheel of the MazdaSpeed MazdaSpeed3, we honestly couldn't feel an improvement in speed through our "butt dyno". That doesn't mean that the car isn't faster -- it's just so refined, the car still feels incredibly easy to drive.

    The fact that it was on a track sponsored by Mazda may compromise the objectivity of the article. But, the article has definitely whetted my appetite for a test drive.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    "Definitely a positive review. I did not find it especially informative and sometimes almost amateurish (they did not take notes and forgot to bring a stopwatch?)."

    Yeah, where do I sign up to be the car guy on About.com so I can go on test drive junkets?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    The fact that it was on a track sponsored by Mazda may compromise the objectivity of the article

    I would disagree. Just because Laguna Seca is currently sponsored by Mazda (which they just renewed for a few more years) really does not mean anything. That track is still lethal, especially in the downward corkscrew. Name of the track does not effect test results, or drive opinions. The car does. Having journalists drive the MS3 at Laguna Seca is like Mazda tooting their own horn "come drive our awesome car, on our well respected track!", which happens to be one of the most lethal, if not, most lethal, track in the U.S. or the world.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Also, I found it hilarious that the Mazdaspeed3 has a faster cousin! "

    Yes, that would be the Mazdaspeed Mazdaspeed3.
    .
    .
    .

    By Mazda. :P

    Actually, I don't think Mazda was ALLOWING any sort of instrumented testing. And, in lieu of that I'm glad they didn't try to get any 0-60 or 1/4 mile 'times' using a stopwatch. I don't often drive with a stopwatch myself. ;)

    I think all they were after was to gather some driving impressions. But yeah, it was kinda amateurishly written (but since I haven't seen any real reviews from any of the Big Guns yet, this'll do until then).
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    "I think all they were after was to gather some driving impressions. But yeah, it was kinda amateurishly written (but since I haven't seen any real reviews from any of the Big Guns yet, this'll do until then)."

    I didn't even know that About.com and International Gaming News (or whatever IGN stands for) would rate a car test junket. I really want to become the auto reviewer for some website or another so I can test drive cars at Laguna Seca and those twisty roads around Monterey.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I really want to become the auto reviewer for some website or another so I can test drive cars..."

    Yeah, no kidding.

    I mean, I meet all the prerequisites - I love cars.....and I can write amateurishly! ;)
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Yup, by the third draft my copy would be at least as amateurish as the About.com/IGN guys.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Draft?

    I think they publish their first draft and then knock off for beer and pizza and an afternoon watching Cartoon Network.... :P

    What's sad is we're ragging on these guys but THEY'RE the ones getting to do the first drives (and probably sleeping until noon). And we're not. :(
  • ambullambull Member Posts: 255
    Autoweek likes the MS3, with the following exceptions:
    "Brakes are merely adequate; the clutch operates much like a light switch—all on or all off; and the booming exhaust was tiring after a long highway drive, although the kids will probably love it."

    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060912/FREE/60911018/1024
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    You forget to mention that those are their "minor complaints". Throw those "minor complaints" with their abundance of positive comments, and it's still more then a positive ratio.

    They loved the car to say the least.
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    Interesting review. As aviboy mentions the review sounds positive with only "minor complaints" noted.

    Running nearly 300 lb-ft of torque through the front wheels can be a recipe for torque-steer disaster. Coupled with an electronic torque limiter in first and second gears, Mazda engineers installed half-shafts of differing diameters to thwart the problem and it seems to work. You still want the front wheels pointed straight when you launch the car, but torque steer is managed quite well.

    What is a half-shaft? Where would they be located?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    What is a half-shaft? Where would they be located?

    They are the axle in vehicles with independent suspensions. One comes out of each side of the tranny, or a differential in RWD applications, to drive the wheels. They can be of equal or un-equal lengths depending on the particular setup.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    "'Mazda engineers installed half-shafts of differing diameters to thwart the problem and it seems to work.'"

    This begs the question of how different diameter (thickness?) halfshafts would reduce torque steer. The only thing I've heard of regarding FWD halfshafts was making them equal length.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "This begs the question of how different diameter (thickness?) halfshafts would reduce torque steer."

    I haven't figured that one out either. I know that torque steer is a function fo half-shaft length as well as suspension geometry. The only thing differing half-shaft diameters would do for you would be different rates of torsional stiffness. I wonder if torque steer is caused (in part) by 'axle windup'. IOWs, torque is applied to the end of the half-shafts at the tranny end but the axle twists (very slightly) due to the grip of the tire. Half-shafts of differing lengths would twist at different rates. Rather than try to get the two shafts at exactly the same length, maybe they make the longer shaft slightly thicker so that both shafts twist at the same rate?

    I dunno. That's just my theory.
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