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Honda Accord Hybrid - worth the extra $$$?
kurtamaxxguy
Member Posts: 677
in Honda
Is the Honda Accord Hybrid, considering ownership experiences (economy, performance, comfort, reliability) worth the additional premium when compared to other midsized sedans and hatchbacks?
Also, is it a good value compared to the other available hybrids from Toyota and Ford?
Also, is it a good value compared to the other available hybrids from Toyota and Ford?
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No power loss (actually more powerful by 15 HP than the comparable gas EX V6)
What you get is a better city rating (30 in the HAH versus 21 in the V6 EX) and a better highway rating (37 in the HAH versus 30 in the V6 EX) and thus you save money on gas versus a comparable car.
ALSO, if you were to compare vehicles of that size, cost, and trim level from other carmakers, do you find ANYTHING with 255 horsepower and a combined city/hwy EPA Miles Per Gallon rating of 33.5 MPG?
Nope. Nope. And Nope.
It's a new category all by itself.
That is what those that purchase are hoping for in mileage. I would say a full blown HAH with NAV is worth $30k. That is about $3000 over what a V6 EX-L with NAV is selling for. I think that $35-36K asking price is too high, and will get you at trade-in time. If you keep a car for 10 years & 150k miles it is no big deal. If dealers in LA are already selling below MSRP maybe the rip-offs will end. San Diego is always harder to get a good deal than Orange County and LA. I find all of CA over priced. I try to squeeze a nickel till Jefferson's eye bugs out.
Can't you just say "I'm paying more for a better car" which is what is actually happening?
Is there such a thing as an "EX premium" for those who are shopping for an LX?
No. You pay more for an EX compared to an LX because you GET MORE.
So why is there a "hybrid premium?"
You are paying more for a better car. Period. Simple. It's an EX on steroids.
I think a $3000 premium is justified for all the extra stuff. I don't think $8k or $9k is justified. If you do go for it. I think about trade-in even if I decide to keep it. You lose every penny of that dealer markup before the ink dries on the paper. If you were to invoke the lemon law they will give you Blue Book as a recovery. The closest car to the HAH is the V6 EX-L. With NAV they show a TMV of $27,746 in my area. That is about $1400 over invoice. To pay even $3k difference is a lot for a battery and a motor. Remember you lose a lot of trunk space and the moonroof. Ask Viet the NAV is the best thing in the Accord so why pay $8000 more for 15HP and possible headaches when the hybrid stuff starts acting up?
So why pay more for the HAH? Depends on your priorities and how much it's worth to you to satisfy them. How much is a leather interior worth to you? How much is the power of a V6 vs. an I4? How much is a navi system worth? How much is the exclusivity and extra performance of the hybrid version worth?
In other words, this is a personal choice and personal decision. Many people make major purchases based on emotion, not on quantitative criteria. I go the quantitative route when I buy cars, but not entirely--I won't buy certain cars because I think they're ugly or the wrong color, for example. But I also won't spend more than I need to in order to meet my transportation requirements. Thus, would I buy an HAH today? No. Would I buy one tomorrow? No. Would I buy ANY V6 sedan now or in the near future? No. Why? Because smaller cars meet the needs of my family and me, and I have better uses for my money.
For those people who don't mind spending $30k on the latest in automotive technology, and for those for which the HAH puts a smile on their face, I say, "Have fun!" There's a lot worse ways to spend $30k.
"I find that many obsessives harbor a fear of being exploited financially - one component of an overall tendency to be guarded with money. Frugality may take many forms, including the following:
- A reluctance to spend money on anything but true necessities.
- The need to get the very best buy - regardless of how much time and effort are expended in shopping for it.
........
- Pride in making one's possessions last a long time."
I think you're trying to transplant your overall worldview (and perhaps mine as well) onto all car buyers. While I think it's true that many Honda Civic Hybrid owners (such as myself!) fall into Mallinger's nasty categories, as do many owners of the Prius and Insight and many diesel owners, I doubt that many Honda Accord Hybrid buyers are concerned at all with saving much money.
In other words, it's worth the money. To them. It's a luxury purchase, not a necessity.
So I doubt that pointing out a buck here or five thousand bucks there matters re: the HAH.
Folks who spring for the HAH are not inferior, irrational car buyers.
In fact, the psychological community might suggest that they're a lot healthier than those of us who hang around here and wring our hands about it!
Or you don't break even until 150K miles right? No it is even worse then that because of the Time Value of Money. When you buy the HAH you are paying interest on that $3000 difference. If the interst rate is 5%, it costs you $15 per month interest which is most of your $20 gas savings. And then by 150K miles the hybrid system is going to have cost you some $, and maybe serious money.
So financially no it isn't worth it. If it makes you feel better YOU didn't burn the gas, and someone else did here in the country in their hemi, or some new driver in China, then maybe it was worth it. ;-)
"Wait... C/D says the HAH goes 0-60 in 6.7 seconds, and is EPA rated like an economy car! And it's an Accord!!"
"Honey, I've found the car we should buy."
"I told you, no Mustang GT!"
"No, dear, it's a very practical, sensible car. An Accord."
"An Accord! That's great, those are very sensible cars. But I'm surprised you'd buy something that... boring."
"Just trying to be practical like you, sweetheart." <Turn and wink>
I have a great story about a couple in our church. They were looking for a car a couple years ago. They also wanted to buy a nice home. They passed on the expensive car and bought a nice Elantra hatchback. Plenty of room for the two kids. They were able to qualify for a $200k home in the suburbs. The husband got transferred to TX this last fall. They sold that home for $490,000 moved to TX bought a bigger home cash and had enough left to buy a new Volvo cash.
The moral of this story is get your priorities in order before you buy an expensive car.
Lou
What would you say about those who aren't achieving the promiseland from EPA world with a non-hybrid?
Common sense dictates that a more efficient way of utilizing energy is going to return better results. Now, what does this "better" to? Certainly not firing in the dark, but similar style and conditions. Apples to Apples, not Apples to Fruit cake.
I would say EPA estimates are going to be closer with the non-hybrid car. Consumer Affairs agrees with that conclusion. Only one HAH has lived up to the EPA estimates for the owners reporting their mileage on green hybrid.
"Zero emission" hybrid cars are all the rage at the moment. Consumers who want to be eco-friendly like them. Time-obsessessed bureaucrats in the D.C. area are snapping them up because zero emission vehicles are allowed to use car-pool lanes. Others are buying them because, with gas prices around $2, they expect to reap huge savings in fuel, which is where the gotcha comes into play. Truth be told, most drivers don't get the 45 miles per gallon they expect in city driving. Reason? The federally-mandated fuel tests don't measure hybrids properly. Many drivers may find themselves getting around 30 mpg in city driving.
To understand “how close”, you must realize that 10% of 20 mpg is just 2 mpg, or 18-22 mpg spread. OTOH, 10% at 40 mpg comes to a range of 36-44 mpg. So you’re correct, the former would be “closer” when you look at absolute number, but in percentage, may not be.
As for real world fuel economy in the same world, we haven’t seen enough of comparisons to draw conclusions that anti-hybrid sentiments use. There was one that I remember, yes the one C&D had a few months ago with 4-5 cars driven over a range and varied circumstances. We have discussed it before. Need to do it again?
If you want 45 mpg in city driving, get Civic Hybrid. Accord Hybrid isn't supposed to fill-in for every aspect of a car ranging from a micro car to a heavy duty pickup truck. Take it for what it is!
"Zero emission" hybrid cars are all the rage at the moment.
Is it, really? I didn’t know that. If you want zero emissions, go for it. But stereotyping hybrid technology makes no sense to me. If it offers cleaner (relative, not absolute term), greater efficiency and at similar or better performance, I couldn’t complain about it. But then I must not be keeping up with the times.
100,000 miles = $1200
200,000 miles = $2400
300,000 miles = $3600 (engine dies; no battery replacement)
Financially, I still think it makes more sense to buy the cheaper, non-hybrid car for $20-25,000.
troy
the above figures are dependent on what you assume gas prices are!
Unless you are some Great Oracle, nobody knows how high or low future gas prices will be!
The gas saving payoff of a HAH may be worhwhile---depending on what prices of gas you project in the future.
troy
a v6 accord is cheaper, pollutes slightly more, and has more features.
a prius is cheaper, pollutes less, gets way better mileage. has some unique features.
a focus is way cheaper, pollutes slightly more, more features, on par with v6 accord in performance.
I can see the comparison to the V6 Accord and Prius, but comparing the HAH to a Focus is a big stretch IMO.
Gas prices for me are in Litres not gallons( I live in Canada).
Since you added $1.00 per gallon--these estimates can be considered quite good---in other words it is not worth buying HAH for gas savings.
BUT it is worth buying the HAH if you want performance plus gas savings.
The comparison of a HAH and a Focus is an interesting! I think a Mini Cooper S is far more exciting to drive that the HAH and a pretty good gas saver. Also quality/interior finish can be considered better than the Accord.
No wonder the MINI remains so popular after all these years!
BUT what I am focusing on is a vehicle as a package that combines performance and gas savings.
I live at midtown Toronto and parking is HELL, so a small fuel efficient rocket sounds great for my needs(unfortunately not so practical for my kids needs--this is why I do not have one)
Perhaps they will be when gas hits $3.00 a gallon.
That doesn't mean that lots of people shouldn't buy the HAH right now, but it's not a car that people who are concerned with money should even look at, for all the reasons stated over and over again on this and other hybrid forums.
Yep!
Actually, I think the Mini Cooper is a sub-compact, but I accept your rationale.
However, if I were looking for a good blend of performance and gas savings, it wouldn't be the Mini Cooper. My pick would be the Mazda3i, which has good performance (esp. with 5-speed), great handling, room for 4 real adults (5 in a pinch), the highest fuel economy ever measured for an ICE car by CR, and costs thousands less than a Mini Cooper. But it's a compact sedan, not in the same league as the HAH.
- The bus/train/bus trip from home-to-work is 3 hours and ~$40 a day.
- I can't bike/walk 70 miles.
- And I can't afford the 1 million dollar homes that are within bike/walk distance of my job.
It's easy for you liberals to sit there & say, "trash your car/use other transport" but not everyone has that luxury. (yes a million-dollar home within biking distance is a luxury)
.
FUEL SAVINGS OF ACCORD HYBRID vs. A 30mpg CAR ($3.00 a gallon)
100,000 miles = $1200
200,000 miles = $2400
300,000 miles = $3600 (engine dies; no battery replacement)
IMHO, a $25,000 non-hybrid luxury car that still gets 30 mpg makes more sense financially.
troy
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Get a 10K car and be done with it, if you still need some luxury. Accord Hybrid is far more car than a $10K car offers. People who can take it, will.
but times do change - now only liberals recommend riding the bus?
troy: I don't doubt the mass transit thing doesn't work for you. It doesn't work for a lot of folks.
I think it's also funny that some have talked about the Accord in the same breath as a Focus or as certain Hyundais. The Accord is NOT an entry level car. It hasn't been for a long long time. We can all argue about the merits of spending 30k verus 15k on a car, and the resale values, etc., but if you are making 40 grand/year, you probably shouldn't spend 30 grand on a car, even if it DOES retain alot of its value. People who are spending 30k onn a car whould not ever pretend they are making a good financial decision. If it was a financial decision, they'd buy a used car for 15k (or less). Buying any NEW car is a stupid decision from a financial decision, and certainly adding leather and the like is not a good "financial" decision.
On a related note, how is the HAH from an emissions standpoint?
And when you start talking $30K+, you are talking serious money for most people. And here's where I see a disconnect in people buying an HAH.
I hear that people appreciate the above-average performance they get. But I don't get that saving fuel is one of their top priorities. Higher performance, larger engines compromise mpg. As many stated here if the HAH were a 4-cyl, it would get much better mpg than as a 6-cyl. So people choosing the HAH 6-cyl. have already decided that they accept reduced mpg to get higher hp/torque.
But let's get back to paying $30K+, paying thousands extra over a regular Accord V-6, in order to save what - $40 or $50 / month in gas? It would take 5-6 years at this rate to break even.
And the HAH is going to be less reliable and cost more to maintain than a regular V-6. How do I know that? Because the Accord V-6 parts are a subset of the HAH parts; put simply, by having more parts - the hybrid systems, it has more to go wrong. All parts and machines eventually need repair/maintenance, and wear. So you have those potential extra costs of ownership, and I'm sure that is going to hurt resale some. People don't like uncertainty, compared to the known.
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Perhaps with “i-VTEC I” version of the 2.4/I-4 used in Accord, this will change. But that engine hasn’t been produced yet (only in 2.0/I-4 form as of now and offered in only one trim in the Japanese market Honda Stream).
However, use of I-4 as opposed to V6 could have allowed Honda to trim the price tag by $2K. And using LX trim could have saved another $2-3K. Now, we will be talking about a $25K Accord Hybrid/I-4 that is equipped like a $21K Accord LX and performs slightly better and gets you 31 mpg in city.
There is nothing wrong with offering more performance while improving fuel economy and emissions. It happened when Honda redesigned the Accord V6. Power and fuel economy improved at the same time. I don’t know about you, but I consider it a good thing. With hybrid power, the changes are substantial in terms of fuel economy and emissions.
As for maintenance costs, I would bet on electric motor reliability before I do on mechanical parts.
We all buy cars for different reasons. Anyone who is spending 30k on a car and then making economic arguments is a fool. If you want to be careful with yor money, then you shouldn't be spending so much on something like a car. Spend 15K and invest the other 15K, right?
Compare the HAH to other vehicles aroud nthe same price point, not to cars that YOU think are "similar." Of course, if you are buying an HAH to save gas, then it is fair to compare it the Accord 4-cylinder, or a Focus, etc. etc.
just my 2 cents (don't you hate it when people say that - of course what you just posted is your two cents)
The HAH I believe would provide the same intrinsic value of feeling good about avoiding stops at the fuel pump and lining the wallets of greedy energy conglomerates.
my 2 cents
me: yes but doesn't the HAH have all the parts as the regular V-6 + the hybrid system. The hybrid system consists of an electric motor, but aren't there mechanical systems - the regenerative braking system - hoses, fluid, batteries? what else?
you: With hybrid power, the changes are substantial in terms of fuel economy and emissions.
me: you don't need a hybrid system that gives you 260hp. There are plenty of regular cars that can do that. And if you're using that engine power it is for a few seconds of your drive, unless you don't care about speed limits.
What there is a shortage of is high-mileage economical hybrids. It doesn't need another powerful family sedan, that could be replace with a 4-cylinder Camry or Accord giving up a few mpg. Put the limited hybrid manufacturing capacity into vehicles that get 50% better mpg than the HAH.
I carpool with a guy who has a 4-cyl 2003 Accord, and we do our 30 mile commute in basically the same time whether we take his car or my modified '01 Firebird. The speed with which we can go is based on the law; extra hp does not mean you can go faster, or get anywhere quicker, except for the seconds difference when accelerating. 260hp for an Accord makes no sense, when hybrids should be focused on getting people turned on to getting good mpg.
That's what I say. The HAH was designed to sell to "Green Racers". They can have a hotrod and feel like they are doing a bit for the environment. The problem is it is not that clean and not that fast. The Prius is cleaner and gets better mileage, the EVO MR will blow it's doors off.
1) It's unique right now.
2) I can tell people I have a hybrid, and they'll smile on me. They won't know it doesn't get 50 mpg, because
3) I want to have the fantasy of being a racer. Wait until I get to blow by those people in their Tauruses and Impalas. (Now there's performance!) This is a step up from racing on the Playstation with the kids.
4) I'll feel good saving some gas. Not considering all the time that more importantly is the consumption of fuel in other parts of his lifestyle. Whether this driver owns a powerboat, or has a vacation home, or how far they live from work (overall driving mileage), is more important than his choice of an HAH over a Malibu Maxx, or such.
The best thing people can do who are concerned about fuel economy is to live close to where they work, and cut out optional trips, or combine them with errands. And of course take public transportation if possible.
And if you do these things, you'll find that the gas savings in $'s between an HAH and a hemi 300C would be very small. Reduced driving would also unclog the roads, and people wouldn't again waste gas sitting in congestion. And your maintenance costs go down.
So really give it some thought whether the problems with auto transportation is the vehicles, or is it how much we drive. If you think fuel conservation is a serious issue then you should be focused on lifestyle; the vehicle is only a small part of the potential problem. Everyone bailing water on the Titanic (helping in an ineffective way) wasn't the answer to saving themselves.
Maybe people who buy a HAH are trying to do something to save gas. Maybe they can't pack up and move closer to work--ever try to uproot three kids from the schools and friends they love, or move far away from an elderly parent? Not every community has a convenient bus or rail line to work. Some people, e.g. sales people, need to drive around during the day visiting customers. They can't take a bus to work.
At least if someone buys a HAH instead of a 300C Hemi they're getting 50-100% better fuel economy than the Hemi. And they're not wasting gas sitting in congestion because the ICE is off then. A little impact in the grand scheme of things, but it's something.
At least the HAH has a large 6 so if you need the power, it is there. And Honda is trying to manage fuel econony with cylinder deactivation.
I wonder how far up a mountain range the HAH can get before its hybrid battery pack runs out of juice?
I'm just pointing out that anyone thinking that buying the HAH has done something wondrous for saving fuel, is probably looking at one of the lowest factors in fuel usage. Lifestyle choices are by far larger factors.
IMO, people are unwilling or as you point out sometimes unable (I think this is more rare than you do) to make lifestyle changes, so they say to themselves what can I do that won't hurt. So they don't give up power or room in their car, but make a very modest improvement in mpg. Rather like having a thousand $'s in your pocket when you go to the store to buy that big-screen TV, and putting $1 in the Salvation Army kettle, and then telling everyone how great it is to give to charity. Well okay, you did something.
Now I don't see anything wrong with people who do this. It is fairly normal to make compromises, and keep most of what you earn and buy what you want. I do. I just don't think anyone who buys an HAH or similar vehicle should be that proud of their choice from a fuel economy choice, any more than I would think someone putting a $1 in the kettle is a great philanthropist.
I don't see the economic sense of buying the HAH; and as stated above I don't see where it is a big mpg/environmental improvement worth touting as "green".
I drive 21 miles to work every day and back into Washington DC. On good days it a 50 minute commute, on bad 2 hours. I am in my late 50's, getting old and crotchety. I have discovered that a comfortable car going to work in traffic is a minor blessing. I also use the car to go to the shore on summer week-ends and other trips. It has to carry four comfortably.
The cars I am considering (new or late used) include the Acura TL, Toyota Avalon, Lexus ES330. In essence a 3500# 4-door sedan with over 200 hp and mid-end torque, reliability, leather and the niceties. $35,000 is a reasonable price range.
In that class, the HAH offers similar performance (not as good as the TL), almost as good but perfectly as fine interior and comfort. Given that choice the Accord comes in nicely. The hybrid has the advantage of 20 - 45% better fuel economy. I've done the math, at today's prices I will never re-coup in gas savings the difference in price (in 7 years I break even with the V-6 Accord - just in time to buy a battery).
However, I am not confident that today's prices will last (there are any number of Middle East scenarios), and at gas at $4.00 to $5.00 / gallon (Europe's prices) it makes a difference in a hurry. At $4.00 / gal it takes less than 4 years.
So I am trying to have it both ways - have my near-performance near-luxury car and hedge my bets on oil. A compromise but a decent one.
Besides, it is new, hybrid technology is needed and I want to encourage them to build more.
i sympathize with the your dc traffic issues, but i would just take the metro.
Welcome to the Edmund's Forum. I am curious how you settled on the HAH over the AWD vehicles. Was it the mileage, NAV or that feeling of being part of the green movement? The HAH is not anything like a Land Rover.
Oh by the way I got the same treatment at Toyota in Hawaii when I asked about buying a Prius. They tried their best to convince me that the Camry on the lot was a better deal.