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The real reason that there are not many diesels in North America.
Low, low, low, gasoline prices during the past 25 years!
When fuel is inexpensive, efficiency does not have mass appeal.
Most of the early diesel cars were not that much fun to drive either. And they smoked with the high sulfur diesel. I understand people not considering diesel cars. If they ever drove a new Passat TDI or E320 CDI out on the open road or through the mountains they would have a different opinion.
Honda was not much of a car even in 1978. I had nothing but problems with my 1978 Accord. And the dealer was 75 miles from home. I wanted a diesel Dasher and the wait was close to a year. So I bought the Accord for my long commute. Live and learn.
lets hear from a real chevy diesel owner not hearsay.
I am driving a 1987 6.2 L diesel. Non turbo. mileage now about 389,000. no head work or failure, no gasget failure, no injection pump failure, honest highway mileage at legal speed limits 24 mpg... Smells wonderful with high sulfur fuel, after all MBTE causes cancer...sulfur diesel does not. Frankly, idiots are the ones who had bad luck with chevy diesels... sometimes also called detroit diesels. Would I buy a new one if the GD EPA would permit it....sure you bet. Does it rock you bet... it has 24 to one compression...what do you expect. Only trouble I have with the truck is typical body rust..which is even worse with [non-permissible content removed] cars. Does it smoke.. Geee I hope some.. I really am disappointed that at almost 400K it still does not smoke enough. It also starts in cold weather. But like all REAL diesels when it gets below or near ZERO they all need to be plugged in.. even [non-permissible content removed] models, Would love to buy a new truck but not too impressed with mileage in the IZUSU diesels now in all GM products.
The solution to this fuel crisis is more supply in the US so the camel jockes can not black mail us
ALSO THE 6.2L ENGINE WAS NEVER EVER A GASOLINE ENGINE. THAT STUPID RUMOR JUST WILL NOT DIE. Am I a happy diesel owner..you bet. Not too many heavy duty gas [non-permissible content removed] trucks that get a real 24 mpg. New ones are so smogged up mileage is not even close to the older models. It just sounds good since most people never owned a real diesel.
VR
amccom
Frankly, idiots are the ones who had bad luck with chevy diesels. sometimes also called detroit diesels
GM was the idiot for bringing the 5.7L disaster diesel to market, not the unfortunate individuals that purchased them.
5.7L diesel was NOT a Detroit Diesel. It created an engine transplant industry during the time it was on the market.
Are yout trying to create a NEW rumor?
I say, Why demonstrate clean diesel in California? California prohibits clean diesel passenger vehicles and allows high emissions commercial trucks that spew 100's of times the emissions.
Let CA enjoy the pollution while non-CARB states enjoy high mpg clean diesel passenger vehicles.
John, a California native wanting diesels.
Sure, it would be nice to have CA open to diesels, however, at this point in time CA has done nearly as much damage to the future of diesels as GM did in the late 70's and early 80's for those of us old enough to remember.
Better start offering some of these diesels in production if they ever hope to see more diesels than hybrids. Better yet, Daimler should offer both hybrids and diesels and let the consumers decide.
But this is a hugely profitable market that can't be ignored. The number of HD diesel pickups here in CA is astounding. We own two Duramax duallies right now.
It makes sense to buy an HD pickup that gets 23 mpg, even though it never gets used for HD.
You may have to trust me, the market is very lucrative here.
John
If you could get a midsize PU with a small diesel that gets 30-40 MPG would you drive that instead of the Duramax?
I am holding out for the new SporTrac with a diesel, or the new Mazda 5 with a diesel. I gotta believe that these are both in the next 2 years.
Are these CA passenger cars? If so, sales haven't been allowed here for years.
The only diesels here now are HD pickups, leftovers from the 80's, and out-of-states.
So your statistics don't surprise me, in fact they would be very high for CA.
John
I believe it. California has created a niche for diesels and increased their values.
I drove my TDI Wagon for nearly a year then sold for $200 less than I paid for it new to a dealer in CA that made a nice profit on it. CA dealer sold it for more than MSRP.
Once a diesel vehicle has 7500 miles, it can legally be sold used in CA.
I read somewhere that CA has 27M vehicles? (dont quote me here) so 2.3 to 3% would be 621k to 810k MAX.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/PPT/2003EARelease.pdf
It is a sellers market. Only one 2005 Passat TDI Wagon listed on autotrader in CA. Asking price with 8000 miles, $32,000. I feel I am under cutting the market asking $29,000. I still have 400 miles to that magic number. Three perspective buyers lined up.
The new generation sold in Europe are more efficient, quieter, and more powerful than the gasoline engines in the USA.
So where do you think sales are going to go once we get the low sulfur fuel and modern engines over here?
To me, performance is a moot point. It will get down to arguing over whether the extra $1,000 or so for the vehicle so equipped will be worth it.
John
I would agree. Even that "slightly" higher premium has a B/E pay back cycle. Some common ones are
1. 20-25k per year vs an average of 12-15k.
2. with up to 6 years or 50-60k miles.
As a perspective in my estimation the "quickest" would mirror the 12% population GROWTH of SUV passenger vehicle fleet. This happened over app a 21/25 year period from app 2% of the population: for a growth rate of app .4% to .48% per year or less than half of one percent per year!! Snail races engender more excitement.? Keep in mind the hype of the run away growth predicted in many media forms of the "killer SUV's"
You bring up a valid point though, we did have to take the two DuraMax's in for some injector work. They were smoking more than they should. GMC blames the fuel.
I haven't had any problem with my tractor engine (IVECO brand, Italian made).
There are tons of John Deeres, Cummins, Cats, and Deutz's all running fine doing irrigation pump duty, all on CA fuel. I think the DuraMax's aren't as well built as the others.
John
I need a minivan to carry a bulky load, pull a trailer on trips, and deliver decent fuel economy. I *don't* need a van that goes from 0-60 in 7.5 seconds - if I *need* that kind of acceleration from a dead stop, I'm doing something wrong.
The car companies are all gunning for higher horsepower and, occasionally, slightly improved economy. A turbo-diesel may not deliver quite the same horwepower, but it would provide torque, which is what most users really need, and should deliver significantly better mileage and driving range while doing it.
Obviously, the manufacturers feel that Americans wouldn't buy it, so nobody will step up and produce a diesel minivan. I'd like to believe that the populace is more open to the possibility today than a few years ago, but some manufacturer has to provide a viable product or the question will go unanswered. People buying minivans are more into practicality, or else they wouldn't be buying a minivan in the first place, so the market *should* be there. Minivan buyers often look at the numbers, and the numbers for a diesel minivan should be pretty attractive.
Comments, anyone?
here is an article that mentions the disel minivan program
He explained all the advantages of clean diesel, then did an excellent job explaining how it could tie into biodiesel and how this could support the American farmer. And how these dollars could stay in the country instead of going to the petro-terrorsists (my characterization). Best speech I heard yet from US auto guy who really gets potential of diesel. I still think the hybrid thing could turn into a huge flop and backfire on the Japanese. I would love to see the Germans (and please Fiat - come back) kick some butt for a change.
Separately, I've heard of research going on on some kind of bacteria that lives in salt water that produces its own oil that is similar to biodiesel. So the proposal is to flood a desert the size of the Sonoran desert with sea water (which could reduce sea level rise) and an area that size could produce all the liquid fuels required by the US.
The petroterrorists better start diversifying their economies real fast.
The Smart car diesel is still held up by the EPA. They are selling as fast as they hit the showroom in Victoria, BC. I talked to one owner that gets 75 MPG in town. I can tell you they far outsell the hybrids up there. The only Prius you will see are taxi cabs. Did not see a private Prius in a week Of wandering the island. Very nice place.
We will have to be in dire straits before anything that radical will happen. I mean nearly out of oil. Maybe 50 years, even 100 years or longer.
PS
Don't forget Exxon is spending 8 or more billion to process the Natural gas to diesel in Qatar. I don't think that will strap them for cash though.
A local radio station interviewed a guy from Alabama Univ based on that word in the Pres' speech, "Sawgrass' and apparently sawgrass can be a major player in ethanol production. It can create more ethanol than corn as the entire 5'-6' plant is used as opposed to just the seed from corn. It also only takes one unit of energy to produce four units of ethanol from sawgrass. Plus sawgrass can grow in a poor soil. Sounds promising...
Can you imagine the median strips on all our interstates growing grass to use for energy?
I also seen something on TV the other day about bio-deisel being made from hemp oil. Anybody else see that?
Very thoughtful contribution. I will contemplate your words for ages.
Personally, if nukes could be made safe enough and the waste dealt with, I would like to see thousands of them built and the power used to pump thousands of cubic kilometers of sea water into the deserts to produce biodiesel and cancel out sea level rise. This would also produce downwind weather benefits. Imagine what a country like Australia could do with a concept like this.
Geo-thermal is another source of untapped energy. We have many places in the West that are hot spots for geo-thermal activity. They get blocked because of location.
Hawaii is perfect for geo-thermal power generation. They are stopped by superstition. They still ship coal to the islands to generate most of their electric. My electric bill is about $400 per month with no AC or heat. Hawaii is getting into wind generators and biodiesel production.
The big oil companies don't have the capacity to produce as much diesel as a general conversion would take, and it would open them up to local/independant fuel(biodiesel). Follow the money.
dave
2. In fact producing diesel takes less upstream resources.
3. They can also buy the less than premium grade light sweet crude and up to 30% cheaper per barrel
4. In fact this cheaper stuff is infinitely more available.
5. It also requires less investment capital (facilities) to process diesel than unleaded regular.
6. for "environmental reasons" sale of new diesel cars 2004 and up are banned in 5 states.
7. I do agree with you on one point with multiple consequences, #2 diesel has app 37% advantage over unleaded regular. Another is #2 diesel can be gotten/harvested from a lot of old and creatively new processes; such as: crops, waste streams (multiple multiple), algae, coal, natural gas oil even,. etc, etc, yada, yada. In fact compared to diesel, unleaded regular is truly a one trick pony.
Below is a Chevron web site FYI.
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/
Part of the reason diesel has become more expensive recently is because it's in comparatively short supply due to refining capacity. Of course, as we all know, it's produced from oil like gasoline ( a by-product--not exactly ). In fact, diesel climbed more than gas as an effect of the refinieries damaged/disabled due to katrina because gasoline was considered more "critical path" to keep the country running, and, you know, more voters care about gas process.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/10/11/diesel/index_np.html
You were right to put "environmental reasons" in quotes.
dave
So in effect your post agrees with what I am saying unless
you were not around during Hurricane Katrina!? But you did say you more voters use unleaded regular ie passenger vehicle fleet of 97% with a diesel of less than 3%. President Bush directed the remaining but functional refineries switch from processing #2 diesel to processing unleaded regular. Plus he did lower the environmental standards during this period also.
If what you are saying is true then he should have just let the unleaded regular shortages develop and let the price rise even further than they did? I would have been totally ok with the diesel prices going down!? So in fact it contradicts your assertion!
So that I am not unclear if the demand were more 50/50 as in Europe, #2 diesel COULD be sold as a min 30% cheaper (lower costs etc) So this "CHEAP" price of unleaded regular is enjoyed due to the 97/3% demand dynamic.
I agree with the last paragraph entirely.
I also agree that a power play over ULSD could be part of the issue.
dave
Remember the rolling blackouts in california? It turned out that was market manipulation by enron, not "environmentalism" as cheny's taskforce claimed.
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/8796
............ I would build a massive refinery to produce all the products in demand in the US and it could be shipped by pipeline into the existing pipeline system or barged to anywhere along the Gulf or East coasts. Then they can build one on the west coast and supply California at mouth-watering profits.
No wonder most of Mexico's population is trying to get out. These shortages have been going on for years and Mexico has done zilch to capitalize on it even though they can build a refinery with very little enviro objections.
We haven't built a refinery in 30 plus years. Hello Monterrey? International capital would gladly finance this.
In fact if a stock company arose to do just this I would buy shares in a heartbeat.
The system in Mexico is so currupt that getting anything done is difficult. They have plenty of oil and I think they do sell us finished product. Years ago we went down their to fill up it was a fraction of our prices. Now it is about the same and very questionable quality. Seems like a no brainer if we can get through the politics.
The same technology will be available for other DaimlerChrysler vehicles, such as the Chrysler PT Cruiser, Jeep Liberty SUV and Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Honda, Nissan and BMW also showed diesel technology at the Detroit show.
Diesels are less complex than gasoline-electric hybrid systems and easier to install. The price premium is less, too, usually $1,000 to $1,500 for passenger cars. Diesel-electric hybrids are another consideration, but the added cost of the diesel engine with the hybrid components would likely be out of the price range of most consumers.
Be nice to have more choices than VW. Evolved from a Rabbit