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Automotive Science or Voodoo?
Mr_Shiftright
Member Posts: 64,481
in General
This will be a catch-all forum for new automotive products that are making impressive claims for fuel mileage, engine life, paint protection, horsepower---you name it!
Hopefully, you'll post links to these products and we can discuss their scientific merits or de-merits, or if you aren't a scientist or technician, the "logic" of these claims.
Any other references to laboratory results or, on the bad side, legal actions, would also be appreciated.
Have fun!
Mrshiftright
Host
Hopefully, you'll post links to these products and we can discuss their scientific merits or de-merits, or if you aren't a scientist or technician, the "logic" of these claims.
Any other references to laboratory results or, on the bad side, legal actions, would also be appreciated.
Have fun!
Mrshiftright
Host
Tagged:
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http://www.frictiontechnology.com/
http://www.mybiopro.com/product_econogaschip.aspx?ID=global
I see them sold at various domestic and import dealerships parts departments, so I am guessing that they do not void the original vehicle warranty. Is that also correct? Comments please.
But it is reasonable, I think, to support a claim for a little gain, because the factory engineers used a stock air filter, which is generally a bit more restrictive, since they don't want the car sounding like a vacuum cleaner every time you step on the gas.
I also would like everyone's opinion on this new device. I cannot say where I got this info from or what very well known company is going to make it. Maybe you've heard about it too?
A device that filters the incoming air and turns it in to pure oxygen resulting in increased horsepower.
Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Use of an Excessively/Over-Oiled Aftermarket, Reusable Air Filter #04-07-30-013A - (Jan 25, 2005)
2005 and Prior GM Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2005 and Prior Saturn Models
2003-2005 HUMMER H2
This bulletin is being revised to add additional model years and to clarify warranty coverage. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 04-07-30-013 (Section 07 -- Transmission/Transaxle).
First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket excessively over- oiled air filter
DO NOT repair MAF sensors under warranty if concerns result from the use of an excessively/over-oiled aftermarket, reusable air filter.
The use of an excessively/over-oiled aftermarket, reusable air filter may result in:
• Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On
• Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or band(s)
• Engine driveability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop, limited engine RPM range
The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the sensor. As a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and any or all of the concerns listed above may occur.
When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively/over- oiled air filter. The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with an OEM air box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern.
If an aftermarket reusable air filter is used, technicians should inspect the MAF sensor element and the air induction hose for contamination of oil prior to making warranty repairs.
Transmission or engine driveability concerns (related to the MAF sensor being contaminated with oil) that are the result of the use of an aftermarket reusable, excessively/over-oiled air filter are not considered to be warrantable repair items.
As for sport motorcycles, how about this quote:
-------------------------------
"Testing of aftermarket airfilters on the RC51 has yielded poor results. Typically there are no real world benefits to aftermarket filters for the RC51 as small hp gains can be obtained on topend, but only with a severe trade off for mid-range hp. Truth be told every single Honda sportbike in the last 10 years has had losses in power at some point in the rev range or even throughout it from the addition of K&N , EMGO, BMC filters etc... The only real exception being the Airbox Plus kit developed for the 900RR from Factory Pro tuning which does increase hp throughout the rev range on the 900RR, but in my experience requires some pretty extensive jetting to get it right."
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(me again)
Now, all cars and bikes are different and some dyno operators are far more skillful than others, so results can vary a lot---I'm not saying all this is written in stone. But it does seem to show that on most cars and bikes, any HP gains are pretty darn small for the expense and trouble.
I guess if you have an expensive stock air filter, then cleaning the K&N will save you some money in the long run, and well, 1 or 2 HP is still 1 or 2 hp...or 5 or whatever.
My personal decision after trying them out is to not bother.
Maybe in conjuction with other mods the K&N would make more sense, like cold air induction or header mods, or maybe in race cars, which are always looking for that slight edge and which are normally at very high rpm anyway.
As for engine dirt, I think this depends on how well you maintain the K&N.
I was going to try one in my Porsche 928 but the shop I go to said they don't use them because in the very long type of air cleaner many Porsches use, they found the K&Ns warping when tightened down, leaving a small air gap. This may not apply to other cars however.
What about "Royal Purple" which is a lubricant advertised on Horsepower TV (Spike TV) that is supposed to increase power by reducing friction?
A product that I strongly suspect to be crap is "The Tornado" (a metal insert in the air induction system that supposedly creates a vortex and increases mileage and power).
The tire wear pattern might suck, though.
Krzys
A couple pounds of inflation might be okay and you can see if it's worth it at the gas pump, but too much and as krzys says you'll get a harsh ride and your tires will start to wear in the center and not the sides.
One of which was the K&N, which only netted a 1.1 hp gain on a 358 hp engine.
The tornado or cyclone, what ever it is going by now, only gained .8 hp.
An electric turbo we tried gained a whopping 5.8hp, which was pretty good, but the power gain dropped off completely after 4,000 rpms, so it too had its problems.
They weren't scientific tests, just a bunch of guys with dyno time paid for and a whole lot of parts to play with.
All I see is outlandish claims by a fuel conditioner.
They claim it works the same for gas engines or diesels AND amazingly, it will prolong engine life. Not likely.
An additive doesn't lubricate and lower HCs.
As far as I know, there isn't a lubricant that will do that. The lubricant would turn into HCs.
So you either do one or the other, not both, unless they have found some miraculous way to completely burn the lubricant in the conditioner, but then it wouldn't lubricate very well if it completely burned, now would it?
You'd actually get more HP taking your air filter out and throwing it away.
Do you have a better link to the "product" you are referring to?
Why can't you mention the name?
At least you can name the "device"?
I know all about increasing performance and have tried hundreds of things over the course of 27 years. Some work, most do not.
If you combine a K&N with an effective aftermarket intake manifold and a cold air intake, yes you will probably get a few HP...but that's a long way from just a K&N filter plopped into the airbox.
You could probably cut a hole in the side of your airbox and get more HP than you could from a K&N I think.
But in terms of maintenance, especially if your stock filter is expensive, it could be worth the trouble.
Not for me!
I think the reason some folks think they notice more HP after installation is a) you might get a little better throttle response and b) you hear the induction noise, which sounds "fast".
Interestingly, whenever a dyno test is presented in defense of the K&N, invariably they have done something ELSE as well, like a CAI or a new intake manifold. Well sure the dyno is going to read THAT.
Last of all, a dyno reading is only as good as the person setting it up. You can make a dyno read whatever you want basically. If you want 500HP from your Fiat 500 I can do that (on paper).
So you are saying that this device will be better in performance than a super charger??
That is one hefty claim.
So it will give 100+ hp boost?
I've got to see this. If nothing else, so I can debunk it.
Speak your mind or don't....
I understand liability, I work for 42 lawyers!
I can say "K&N air filters are worthless!" or "K&N air filters are the best thing since sliced bread!" and K&N, nor anyone else, can hack on me for expressing my opinion in a public forum.
You're a consumer, so am I - now, if I put on my expert hat, get paid by a competing company, and went and littered websites and chat rooms with totally false statistics and misleading information about a company, sure, there's a problem.
I'd appreciate knowing what you're referring to, for my own interest - I give a LOT of automotive advice, whether I'm at home working, or at Wendy's or the supermarket. Do tell...
Are you even going to make it to the first oil change on that Saturn?
The Saturn now has a K&N cone element on its stock intake pipe/MAF unit, but it was the same cone intake I took off my PT.
Just a waste of money for the people who buy them.
Shifty
You'll have to pull my post. I should have known better.
If he wants to receive an e-mail from you, all he has to do is click on your name and send you HIS correct e-mail address.
Shifty
Now then, back to VOODOO and Science.
They were supposted to double your gas mileage or something nuts like that. The rumors were, the oil companies had a conspiracy going to block their sale.
Someone else may remember more than I do?
Is that the one?