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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    that is because in every other regard the new IS will be up to and over the standard set by the new 3-series.

    *ducks to avoid BMW fan's sharp thrown object*

    But on-topic here, this is oh-so-very Toyota (and Lexus) - they figure buyers with the money to afford the "better" model will expect not to have to shift for themselves. The critic are right that it speaks volumes to Toyota's understanding of "enthusiasts", which is not to say it is a bad business decision. Even if there were a manual available for the IS350, it would probably sell 10-20% or so max, not a high portion. The only models that still sell in significant volumes in manual trans are small-engined cars, which the 350 is not. (there, I have admitted it, sigh)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Tehe, I'll refrain from taking the IS vs. 3 bait. :--)

    As a former 3-Series owner, I do find it interesting that the IS has been positioned to go toe to toe with the 3-Series while being offered without one key feature that makes the 3 a 3 (at least in my mind), namely a manual transmission.

    Regarding the large engine vs. the smaller/revvier (sp?) mill coupled with a manual transmission debate; I agree that the larger the displacement of the motor, the smaller the need for a manual gearbox. Having said that, I find the combination of a larger motor and a true manual transmission to be a wonderful thing to behold and drive.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Ohhh, nice job of commenting on the IS and not getting up the ire of the hosts. :^P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Oooo, we can take it up here, then can't we?!

    Absolutely, the smaller plant traditionally benefits all the more from a manual. I think that there's also a sales connection (loose axiom here) between less expensive smaller plants and (usually) less expensive manual trannies.

    Yeah, our enthusiast ranks step outside the box here, but consider how fully the enthusiast attitude inspires the automotive press. The 3 is what it is (as Shipo points up) as a benchmark based on the enthusiast's ideals, IMO. And Lexus having publicly declared that BMW is a target, and further that the IS is the sporting entry for its assault on the BMW cache, it makes zero sense not to offer a manual in the 350 to me, even given that if I bought one it would be an automatic!

    None.

    Nada.

    Nil.

    Zilch.

    The press will not be pleased. And rightly so.

    BTW, I'd still drive its rubber off, even without the manual. ]-}
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "BTW, I'd still drive its rubber off, even without the manual. ]-} "

    LOL!

    Yup, that's the spirit. Had said spirit prevailed over in the IS discussion, it would never have augered in as it did. Oh well! [;-/

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Well, I've dealt before with one of those personalities responsible, and I can say without hesitation that I left a thread based solely on his condescending and arrogant attitude. Probably drives the same damn way...
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    large engines with conventional manuals...

    are there any 8-cyl cars left with a clutch available? Besides the Corvette and GTO, I mean. Oh wait, and the Mustang GT. Is there still a manual-shift 540i? Or 545i, or whatever it is nowadays? I don't think so. This is one of the rare occasions when I find myself compelled to give kudos to GM and Ford. Toyota and Honda will certainly never have a V-8/manual combo, not now, not ever it seems. And the "premium brands" are slinking away from the traditional manual just as fast as possible.

    I am with shipo - rowing the gears is the best way to connect to the machine and enjoy the drive, even if larger-engined cars have enough power that you don't really need to wring out the engine to go fast.

    And as long as I can make the comment quietly over here without provoking 200 posts of ire, I agree with the thinking that regardless of cost, Toyota should have made a regular manual available for the IS350. To fit the image.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Is there still a manual-shift 540i? Or 545i, or whatever it is nowadays? I don't think so."

    Good news, the 545i is still equipped with a good old fashioned 3-Pedal 6-Speed manual as standard equipment. The 6-Speed Steptronic and the 6-Speed SMG are no cost options. This actually makes the 545i manual relatively less expensive than the previous E39 540i 6-Speed, which was the most expensive 5er south of the M5.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    Nippon - good point - if you stop and think about it, the only affordable one is the Mustang GT (around $25K).... maybe some pickups? Other than that, they are all beyond the price range of the average buyer
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    yes, and the manual in the Mustang GT is no great joy to use. In fact, the one in the GTO could be better too.

    shipo: thanks for the clarification - so there is still a manual 545i. Kudos to BMW as well, then, although I will bet you almost any money this will be the last 8-cyl 5-series to have a three pedal manual. I bet it is slick, though, if you can raise the $50K+ it costs to buy one. :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Audi will sell you the S4 with a 6M. And the RS4 will be available with a manual as well. But, as stated, this is pricey territory.

    I think part of the reason that Lexus is opting out of a manual for the 350 (thus far), is that, unlike the Europeans, their core market is the US! They are targeting higher sales in Europe (witness the IS220d), but it's not where they make serious coin by a long shot.

    Remember what Dennis said: Toyota is very conservative with its business model. If they can't make a significant business case for something, it won't happen. I think that's going to bite them with regard to the IS, as it has in the past...
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    I predict that the manual transmission will be a "no-cost" option in the IS250 (ala the TSX and TL), and therefore save no money over the slushbox..

    Which really sucks.. I bought my first manual transmission car specifically to save the $300 charge for automatic (yes, that was a very long time ago).

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Sheesh! And you had the nerve to call me "grandpa"...

    [-P
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    Way off topic...
    I went to the Reds opening day game today... Two homers in the bottom of the 9th to win 7-6, and 70 degrees and sunny..

    And... the beer was cold..

    Speaking of driving... the wife drove home.. and a good time was had by all..

    You should have seen me driving my brand-new '77 Cobra II home.. First time driving a stick, other than in my friends driveway.. I think I just about wore out the tires getting out of the dealer's parking lot.

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,433
    had to rub it in. I'm a Mets fan. And I like beer. And had to work today.

    OT, excluding the "exotics (M5/M3/S4), the best yardstick to see if Lexus' business decision makes sense is to look at the compititions sales of MT in the base and optional engine models.

    Using BMW, what's the MT% in the 325 vs. 330?
    G35: Well, only one engine, so just look at the overall split.
    TSX? Oops, only one engine again. Ditto for TL.

    Hmm, I must be missing some other model...

    Anyway, I'll probably stay stick until I die (or I try to paint the kitchen agian and am stiff as a board the next day). Might revisit if my driving habits change, but I don't spend much time stuck in traffic, so not a big deal.

    I almost prefer the smaller engine with a stick (small within reason). You can get a lot more use out of it. Too much HP, and you have trouble ever winding it out. If you have to short shift all the time, it's not as much fun.

    In some ways, a small underpowered car is the most fun. You can wind the bejesus out of it, and don't have to worry about tickets.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    That's just plain mean, Kentuck. I have no words low enough... [-P

    ;+)

    At least my first stick embarassment was private, if more severe. Took Dad's brand spankin' new '77 Accord (he was ahead of his time) for a spin around the driveway (big driveway) while they were in Napa for the day. This would be about four months before my license. Had a blast screamin' around on the gravel playing Ongais, and executing some pretty smooth shifts (1-2-3), or so it seemed then. So I figger I'd best not tempt fate, and I brought her in for a landing by the fence next to the garage. Nobody'd be the wiser, right? I eased up to the fence on the brake, came to a stop, and then, forgetting to take her out of gear, popped the clutch. Whole damn fence (rotted posts) fell over, and there was a cute little crease in the bumper.

    For my 18th birthday, Mom and Dad made a present of the rest of my repayment obligation! Mom made up a fortune cookie for me (with a candle stuck in it) that read "Confucius say: he who drive unlicensed have little accord". Funny lady...
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I once vowed that I would never own an automatic. That was about 26 years ago when I bought my first new car.

    Unfortunately, I had no choice but to break my vow. Our 1996 Isuzu Trooper 5-speed gave us one too many reasons to put a bullet into it. The only SUV's that I looked at that still have a stick were the X5 3.0 and base Cayenne. They were far too small to meet our needs, so my vow was broken on a 2005 Acura MDX. Try as I might, I couldn't get the Acura dealer to retrofit a 6-speed tranny like the one in my 2004 TL.

    I spoke with the owner of a Ferrari dealership recently and he indicated that the new 430 is being produced at 15% manual 6-speeds, 85% F1 SMGs. What in the world are we coming to??? Just a couple of years ago, you couldn't buy an M5 with an automatic. Now you can't buy a new one with a stick. That really sucks. I can finally afford one, but now I've got some Gameboy raised engineer telling me I've got to use my thumbs to switch gears?? . I don't care if it's faster shifting than me. Tiger Woods is a better golfer, but I haven't sold my clubs.

    P.S. The MDX is my wife's first automatic as well. We have both tried to put our passengers through the windshield on a few occasions. I need to tie my left foot to something until it realizes the brake pedal isn't a clutch.
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    BMW will offer a "regular" 6 speed manual with 3 pedals in the 2006 M5 due to consumer demand in the USA.... Other markets will continue to get just the SMG with the paddles.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I heard they were reconsidering the no-manual thing due to customer outcry, but I never thought they would actually reverse course and offer the third pedal. I will have to give BMW their due here - an unusual decision in the context of the market.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    I've said all along, I think the manual will gradually disappear from "mainstream" cars...eventually cars like an Accord or Camry will be all auto or some type of paddle shifer (2 pedals). But, you'll be able to get a stick in "specialty" cars like a Porsche or Ferrari or BMW M5 -as long as the market demands it.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    And that's precisely the market I'd think would demand it.

    Good, they're not all poseurs like me...

    [-)
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,368
    But, you'll be able to get a stick in "specialty" cars like a Porsche or Ferrari

    I think somebody posted that 80% of all Ferraris are ordered with the 2 pedal F1 paddle-shift, sounds about right.

    Stick shifts are hard to come by in the extreme exotica category (supercars)-Ferrari Enzo and Saleen S7 have paddle-shifts only, Mercedes SLR has a TC-based automatic (Manumatic I assume). The Porsche Carrera GT does have a lever and three pedals.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    If 80% are paddle, that means the 20% are stick...

    I'm just saying, I don't think the stick will ever totally go away ....it might eventually be viewed as an anachronism and only available on something like a Morgan, (just like side curtains), it might get harder and harder for the "average" person to buy one, but it won't totally go away.

    I look at it almost like convertibles....30,40 years ago just about every car on the road had a convertible option. Now, very few do....most convertibles are "specialty" cars.... I think you'll see something similar with a "3 pedal" manual... the "average" car will have some type of auto or CVT (or maybe some SMG type thing)...the "pure" manual will be in cars like a Porsche or Miata, not many others.
  • shiphroshiphro Member Posts: 62
    I saw that Kobe Bryant had an automatic transmission put into a yellow Lamborghini Murcielago for his wife since she can't drive stick. I think the modification ran $100,000. :lemon:
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    You'll have to pry a manual transmission from my cold dead hands.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    ditto

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • jrdwyerjrdwyer Member Posts: 168
    Manual trannies, and clutches in particular, get a lot of bad press for wearing out and being a general pain. Well, I'm here to tell you that well-made manual gearboxes with clutches are cheaper, more efficient, and last longer than auto trannies. I have 181K miles on my '95 Mazda Protege (bought new) with both the original clutch and 5 speed manual transmission and both still work great. The car gets 38 mpg on the highway, cost $1,000 less than the auto option, and I can even pull a 400 lb. ATV/utility trailer with it. I have been pulling this ATV since 67K miles and it gets 25-30MPG with trailer in tow. All this from a very meager 1.5 liter engine. In fact, the low gearing of this manual makes it the ONLY desirable choice to fully utilize the engines power and torque. So for small cars and small engines, long live the manual!
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I'll second that.

    I have a 1995 Maxima SE with 154,000 miles on the original clutch. And I haven't babied it. If it ever becomes necessary to replace the clutch, it's less than a $500 repair, parts and labor.

    I also have a 2004 Acura TL 6-speed. Exceptional short throw and smooth clutch. Two friends have 2002 TL's and they are on their 2nd and third automatic transmissions in less than 45,000 miles each. Acura is covering them under warranty - for now - but what a pain in the rear.

    A third friend mistakenly bought a new 2004 BMW M3 SMG. The car has been back to the dealer at least 5 times for everything from standing start hesitation to 1-2 and 2-3 gear shift "shudders". He is in negotiation for them to give him his money back and sell him a 6-speed manual. A REAL 6-speed manual.

    That's great news that somebody posted regarding the M5 being offered in a manual 6-speed due to US demand. I am seriously going to get my name back on the list.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    My wife INSISTS that all our cars have a 5 speed! :)
  • black_tulipblack_tulip Member Posts: 435
    My wife INSISTS that all our cars have a 5 speed!
    Yes, but does she want autos or manuals? :D
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    She like 3 pedals!

    Her words... she feels like she has more control, especially in the winter!
  • ray80ray80 Member Posts: 1,655
    I would concur on the winter thing, feel much better in control. My 96 MT GA with 230K + on the odo has seen a lot of greasy weather. (still original clutch also, must have got a good one)
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    With an automatic, as soon as you put it in gear, the car wants to go 5mph if you're not holding the brake. When you find yourself of VERY slick surfaces, being able to toy with the clutch can make all the difference in being able to move in a direction that YOU would like to!
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    I think probably 95% of people here prefer a stick.... you're preaching to the choir... the problem is, the 90% of the public that aren't car nuts usually prefer an auto.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    I wouldn't call my 16 year old daughter a car nut, but I've certainly infected her with an appreciation of driving stick! She just got her license about a week ago, taking her road test at school with the instructor there. But after six months of learning on our manuals, the in-car portion of driver's ed was conducted primarily in cars with automatics. She complained that her left foot didn't know what to do with itself...LOL

    The school does have one vehicle with manual in the driver's ed carpool. I think it's a new Beetle, and they do get everyone to at least learn how to operate it so the kids will have experienced stick at least once!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Get an old MB...with 2nd gear start, the thing barely moves when in the main gear, and on any kind of uphill surface does not move at all.

    A stick can be fun, esp in the right car, but in tight traffic...I do prefer an automatic.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    boo hiss!

    :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    On snow, a torque converter and a second gear start can be your new best friends. OTOH, so can FWD (blecch).

    I got yer control, right here...
    ]-P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Give me a ZF 5-speed W112 300SE fintail (rumor has it a few were made), and I'll take it. Let me drive in light traffic with few idiots cutting in front of me etc...and I'll take it. But in my hilly suburban sprawl loaded with frazzled housewives in SUVs and octogenerians in Caddy's, I like one less thing to remember.

    On that note, my 126 isn't bad in snow...take offs from a stop are drama-free with the 2nd gear start and primitive traction control...but some other dynamics are lacking.
  • jamspoonjamspoon Member Posts: 1
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Kind of funny; the pictures of the M5 that NewsWheel have on their page show an SMG transmission. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • zillzzillz Member Posts: 21
    As those of us dedicated to Volkswagen are well aware of, sales have been slipping in the US for 3 straight years, which will likely become 4. The New Jetta V is supposed to thwart this, but it's scary when every other person is comparing its looks to a Toyota Corolla, and although it's only been out just under 2 months, sales are not setting the world on fire. Add to that the former owners who remain sour with the coilpack and window regulator issues of a while ago, and what you end up with are loyal VW people like me who are very concerned. There are some who say that VW's days in the US are limited, which is the last thing peole like me want to read. First of all, out of curiosity, I wondered what others' thoughts are on this site : A) Is this alarmist? or B) Do you agree that VWoA will pull out? I can't imagine there being no Volkswagen here, but I have a couple of other questions: C) If VW pulls out of the US, would a person living here still be able to import one? and D) If VW pulled out, would Audi automatically be gone as well?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    VW's problem here is not styling. Their biggest problem by far is their image of being trouble-prone cars. Whether that is accurate or not is not the issue. The "perception" among many (myself being one, having owned a troublesome VW) is that is the case.

    When the VW Touareg first came out I was very excited and thought it to be a superb addition to the SUV landscape. Well, the longer that vehicle has been out, the more problems have shown up. Also, the Touareg got lousy marks in CR regarding reliability.

    I shouldn't just pick on VW in this respect, as Mercedes also has the reliability image problems. In fact poor reliability seems to be a "European disease," with VW and Benz both having a severe case. Once the customer loses trust in a brand, it is very, VERY hard to get those people back. This is especially true as the Japanese brands just get better and better.

    Frankly, I'm not sure VW can recover.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    You probably should have started a new thread on this topic, as it really has nothing to do with manual transmissions.

    But to continue on my thought posted above: I think the Europeans and VW have a tough road ahead. Once customers become wary of the product, it will take years for them to get those old customers back—and that's assuming the quality can match or better the Japanese brands—and the jury is still out on that.

    Bob
  • zillzzillz Member Posts: 21
    Actually, I thought I WAS starting a new thread, and somehow it got intertwined in the manual transmission thread.I apparently did something wrong. Yes, Consumer Reports doesn't help, but they have given VW bad reliability ratings for years, and sales didn't start plummeting until 2002. What the real shame is, is that the average person shopping for a new car doesn't realize that mathematically, CR's reviews are meaningless. So VW gets a black mark in a category such as "electrical." All this means is that over 15% of the Consumers' Union, but probably no more than 20%, which make up a minute percentage of all VW owners, had a problem in this area. This leaves 80% as being fine, but as they say, bad things roll downhill. I will admit that the Japanese deserve credit where credit is due, and their cars cost less, too. I am trying very hard to stay loyal to VW, and just hope enough others do, too.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    As a keeper of the sacred order of the manual transmission ;) can we move this talk to the VW topic in "news and views"?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    that VW's optional automatic in the New Jetta has more speeds than their standard manual? This is the next evolution we are going to see, while the adoption of CVTs continues to trend upwards. Eventually CVTs will be widespread, I think, but that is still 15-20 years distant. And I am sure VW Group will stubbornly hang on to their new DSG for a while (and so they should - it is a technological marvel).

    A year ago, I was much more worried than I am today about the disappearance of manuals. I think traditional manuals will disappear in most of their usual applications, but WILL stick around in sporty cars. Maybe the thing with the M5 has given me false hope, I dunno.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    Merci beaucoup, kev. If it's not specifically about the future of manual transmissions, head over to Reliability and long-term costs of ownership - MB, BMW, VW/AUDI compared

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  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Kirstie, can we get that thread also linked to the "News & Views" area? I think it will open it up to a much wider audience. Thanks?

    Bob
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