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Bob
davem2001, "VW brand experience - good or bad?" #461, 16 May 2005 10:44 am
Bob
An experienced VW mechanic told me long ago that "German cars require lots of maintenance." Now, they're apparently using junk parts on them, too.
Bob
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I guess when I think about it I can see the appeal too, but I hope I never tire of the all-your-hands-and-feet dance.
IIRC, as you slow down, it downshifts along the way, so you drop gears as you slow. It doesn't hold a high gear or drop into neutral and coast. It is a little disorienting at first, hearing and seeing downshifts when you haven't pushed a clutch or moved a lever!
Functionally, I actually liked DSG. Not enough to give up the third pedal (probably), but if my requirements changed, forcing me into 2 pedal mode, this is a decent compromise.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Heck, they have virtual brakes now (MB) and gas pedals, why not a virtual clutch? It would be like a driving simulator.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I'm trying to think of a non-electronic way to do it but no luck. So electronically...
Cars already have fuel-cutoff at redline. So the computer knows when you're revving too high. All you need now is for the fuel-cut off trigger to also trigger a mechanical disengagement of the clutch. I'd rather not use an electric clutch; I don't see how they're going to give that any feel. (It's kinda stupid when they go through the trouble of making electric steering, throttle, and/or brakes feel like simulations of the real thing, when the real thing is what we want in the first place!) Without one, you just need an actuator to push the clutch open. It wouldn't be the fastest thing in the world, but cars tend to have some margin of error in their redlines.
Of course, everything I know about transmissions I got here: How Clutches Work, so I'm sure someone here smarter than I can explain why this isn't feasible.
Another reason for the death of the auto is that there used to be a huge gap in mileage between autos and manuals. Back when autos only had three speeds, and manuals had five, you might get 25% better mpg with a manual. These days the mpg difference with 5 speed autos is very small.
Still, I think if you really love driving a manual can't be beat. And I still think that over the life of the car you're going to save money. Nearly a grand less at the time of purchase, and then a couple more mpg, and my guess is that manuals last longer and that repairs cost less too (is that true?)
Ben
To take it a step further, on cars like the new E90 BMW, you can order the Bluetooth option that effectively integrates a Bluetooth capable phone into the car's audio system, controllable from the steering wheel. BMW has then integrated a microphone in the headliner and projects the voice of the person on the other end of the phone connection through the audio system speakers. As a result, your hands are kept on the controls of the vehicle through all phases of a call operation, allowing you to shift while you talk.
Best Regards,
Shipo
5 speed and had a succession of stick shift cars afterwards with no problem.
I currently drive a Steptronic BMW but that's for medical reasons and has nothing to do with a desire to drive and talk at the same time, which I try to avoid. I believe it can be distracting and one should give ALL their attention to driving.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Best Regards,
Shipo
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2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If we could do without cell phones for so long why is it suddnely so obligatory to gab about nothing constantly while driving now? Cell phones should only be used while parked in the car.
Here's another thought to ponder as the SAS pushed and fouled their way past the Sonics into the Western Conference Finals and continue on in the playoffs: is the turn signal quickly becoming extinct in America? Especially on the freeway. :confuse:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I do agree with this. People posting here downplayed it and said "well, you can get hands free"... Face it, people here are enthusiasts - they would try to figure out a way to drive a stick even if their left leg was amputated!...I do agree, for the less hardcore, the use of cell phones has contributed to even fewer people wanting a stick shift.
Hmmm, tried it, couldn't make it work. :mad: Maybe that was because instead of having my left leg amputated, I just broke my right leg and partially tore that foot off. I just couldn't figure out how to sling my right leg, cast and all, over the console, and then operate the clutch, brake and gas pedals with just my left foot. As such, I learned how to drive Mrs. Shipo's mini-van left footed with my right leg slid over into the passenger's foot well. Mrs. Shipo the proceeded to get very used to driving my 530i to work every day, and after months in a cast she was heard to say, "Yeah, and as soon as his cast comes off, I'm going to break the other one."
Needless to say, the very day my cast came off, I went out and practiced with the 530i to see of the foot was strong enough to use the brake pedal. Happily it turned out to be "good enough", barely. So far at least, I still have both of my legs, and they are both still reasonably functional. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
The real race driver does not shift quickly for sake of speed. The real race driver shifts smoothly to keep car balanced in traction. Have you ever seen what happens when you drive on limits of the car? I bet you thought that it is when you start skidding. It is not. It is when you have maximum speed at any time and you slip (not skid) the car.
When you race on track you are supposed shift as if you had a passenger.
For record I recommend advanced racing books from Ross Bentley and Skip Barber. They will cure "fast shifters".
Also sequential gearbox is to eliminate mistakes by a driver as human being is the weakest link in modern racing set. At high speeds and tough competition on turny courses it is not unusual to make mistake. If you downshift too low then you can say good buy to main bearings. Sequential shifter with electronics may prevent that.
Ina ny case you will never be faster with manual gearbox than with sequential on downshifts... unless you want to replace your clutch and dogs frequently. You are supposed to double clutch with throttle blip. With sequential you just blip on transition. That's what I do with my beemer keeping clutch alive while I can still downshift by 3-4 gears fairly quickly (braking is a limit) comparing to what I could do with manual being quite proficient on that type of gearbox but not expert (I am extremely smooth on manual gearbox though in any car after a few miles of try).
Just try to imagine a mistake in F1 car equipped with 900 horsepower engine. If it was not sequential then it would be a grinding effect to mechanics.
For those who wonder about flexibility of driving on different gears, M. Schumacher has taken second in one of GP (I believe in Spain) years ago... while almost whole race he ran on stuck 5 gear and it was not Ferrari. You gotta know dynamics and matching between engine and gears to achieve that, but it is doable.
At the track I can certainly see the advantage of a SMG style tranny though. Also, there is the simple part of the fact I enjoy the clutch pedal and rev matching. Just part of the experience that I enjoy. Not knocking those with SMG/DSG gearboxes.
There is a very common theme: the automakers seem to assume that the only people who buy manuals can't afford a "real" car so they only build stripped cars with stick shifts.
Now, one thing I thought was notable and was pleased to see was that if you move up a step, to sub-premium cars like the smallest Audis, the TSX, and other cars that are meant to be sporty, the dealers really do stock manuals in enough numbers to offer a variety of colors and option levels. The exceptions are Volvo, where the only stick shifts on my local dealer's lot were the 'R' cars, and Saab.
Funny: my local Audi dealer, which also sells VW, does a pretty good job of stocking manual-equipped Audis, yet NEVER orders manual shift VWs. However, VW has apparently just launched a lease promotion on the new Jetta VE, manual shift only, and as a result they just ordered a short stack of them. You could see the looks of displeasure on the salespeoples' faces as the truck was pulling in, which I was coincidentally there to see.
I mentioned it somewhere else here, but it bears repeating: calling the manual "standard" on these models is just insulting our intelligence - it is purely a ploy to advertise a starting price that is some $800-1000 lower than what the automatic that they actually make available will sell for. At the level it has reached, it would show more integrity to begin making the manual shift a no-cost option, and calling the automatic standard in these cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-> found 4 Accord EX manual transmissions (2 black, 1 green, 1 silver); 2 others (1 black, 1 grey) at a different Honda dealer
-> 1 Camry with a stick
-> 4 Altimas (3 SE, 1 S) with sticks
Not encouraging, I agree
Whereas, the person who wants an Acura TSX is more likely to want the stick.... same with Audi versus VW... They're willing to pay more for a "premium" car.
Like it or not, I think the manufacturers do a pretty good job of matching supply with demand when it comes to stick shifts..It's obviously in their best interests to do so, and I'm sure they put some thought/research into it..... If they built a bunch of Accord EXs or Camry SEs with sticks, they'd probably have a bunch of unsold ones on the lots at the end of the year...
michaell: I am jealous! If I had come across a stick shift EX cloth in green last weekend, I might have pulled the trigger right on the spot. As for the Camry, your post has my eyes popping out of my head.
I actually think the automatic in the Accord is pretty responsive, but I know that if I had one it would begin to irritate me in short order. And you can feel the torque converter sucking the power away from the wheels.
I say if the mix of a model drops below 10% equipped with a manual shift, it is deceptive advertising to call it "standard".
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Accords had sticker prices of $22,700, which, accoriding to the Honda website, is standard.
Question: do you think you could get one of those EX's for $20K?
Honda has behind-the-scenes cash to dealers on the Accord, and invoice is at least 10% below sticker.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
S2000, Civic SI, Corolla/Matrix XRS, RSX-S. STi and Evo. Sentra Spec V? SRT-4 and Cobalt SS S/C? Should be the same for GTO/Corvette and 350Z, but GM and Nissan wanted those automatic buyers! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
FWIW the slushbox only version of the SHO bombed worse than the stick only version.
I had a stick shift '91 SHO and found it to be a great engine in search of a good car. :P
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
came w/ a stick only.
Only options were exterior color (blue, red, silver, black) and leather vs cloth.
I disagree. They do a good job of forcing a decision out of people. I know way too many people who bought auto but WANTED stick - only problem was that it wasn't offered or available. I know 2 more people who are shopping for cars now. They both want stick but will probably end up with auto. Example: Saturn VUE. You can't get AWD with stick. Heck, in '06 you won't even be able get AWD with 4-cyl. More product forcing. We want a VUE with 4-cyl and stick. We may have to pay for the BMW X3. sweet 6-spd manual, but $30k.
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Stick shift 2WD and 4WD Element EX's are pretty common too.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There are some companies still makin' 'em.
-juice
Why is this relevant? First, In Europe, fuel is a higher price and automatics just guzzle fuel as they are not efficient in smaller engined cars (these are facts as stated from car manufacturers). The cars are used in both town and motorway/highway settings where you could be going 70+ mph on the Motorway and 30 in town quite often. Due to car pricing, people want cars to last. Auto transmissions generally can't cope and last a maximum of 120,000 miles and cost a fortune to repair (usually resulting in the car being scraped rather than buy a new transmission). Manuals when looked after can exceed 250,000 miles, as was the case of my Dad's Toyota Camry (the gearbox was fine but the clutch started slipping at around the 325,000 mark). No one I know in the UK would touch an automatic gearbox with a 12 foot barge pole, let alone buy one in a car, so generally the option to purchase an automatic is usually non-existant except on prestige models.
In North America, the fuel is cheap (over half the cost of UK or Mainland Europe). Car sizes are larger, engine sizes are larger (to pull the extra weight i guess) and speeds are lower. Average travel distances are larger due to the size of cities. Automatics are better in this regime of cruising and less start/stop traffic. The option to purchase a Manual transmission is rare to non-existant and reduces the options available (e.g. Air-Con). It's also cheaper to buy a new car if the cost of repair if too high.
Conclusion: Manual transmission may well increase in popularity in North America when smaller, more fuel efficient cars are required as fuel prices increase. You won't see Manual transmissions disappearing in the UK and Europe, not with the high purchase costs of new cars and fuel prices.
IMHO: Manuals are more fun, and allow for a better feel for the car. Auto's are boring and gear changes difficult to predict. Also manuals are safer for using the clutch as a brake in addition to the brakes on emergency stops, and safer in snow/ice conditions where clutch (and a competent person) can be used to control/limit the power better than any electronic device. Also, try pulling away up a steep hill (forward or back, dry road conditions) in an automatic without the car rolling downhill at least 3 inches and giving a minor whiplash injury.
hatchbacks and wagons are cars all poeple nd young people buy. preferrably with manual tranny (no dealer will have an automatic available anyway).
Sedans are for old people (at least with models that offer hatch and sedan).
automatic trannies are for disabled people, or old people. for no one else.
In fact, in Germany you can have an autoatic license. when you make an automatic license (with the required driving school and road test in an automatic car) you are NOT allowed to drive manual tranny cars! (with a normal license made in a "normal" car you can drive either type of car).
automatic is for people that can't drive... maybe they shouldn't have a license at all.... :-)
Well, since the camry only was available with auto...we got a Mazda 3. And there is no autoamtic before i retire and can't really drive anymore (maybe then I shouldn'T drive anyway)
But now I think that day will not come as soon as I was pessimistically thinking as recently as last year. I think sport models and economy cars will still have manuals for a good decade yet, in fairly plentiful supply, concentrated among certain manufacturers (mostly Japanese excepting Toyota, possibly also Ford). The new Fusion AND Milan both offer a "standard" manual shift, and they are brand new in MY '06. I think that is a good sign, even if the "standard" standard proves to be hard to find on dealer lots.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Because traffic is kind of jam in a crowed city, people will prefer to drive an automatic because its no fun to hang to the clutch while stuck in the traffic. Most cars are come in automatic except economy car or sports car same as in USA.
But sticker price will treat auto as an option for $500 more. High fuel price U$6.50/Gal or repair cost of an automatic is not an issue here as cars are luxury goods any way. People just want to enjoy to drive in a comfortable vehicle.
-juice