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Comments
Bob
- manual transmissions are weaker by design; planetary gears meshed together are always stronger
- auto trannys with locking torque converters can be just as effecient as manuals
- I don't understand the notion of equating gear control with manual transmissions; as folks have mentioned, you can have such control with automatics, albeit electronically for production cars or optionally, mechanically for aftermarket i.e. removing the "auto" out of automatic
- torque converters offer torque multiplication up to stall speed; turbocharged cars can use higher stalling coverters to quickly load them and overcome lag--something that can't be done with a manual (outside of other very limited use devices like a two-step, or limited use methods like dumping the clutch at WOT)
Most of the time I shifty fairly quick, but of course that is a little "rougher" for passenger comfort. When I have someone else in the car, I tend to shift slower and smoother. When I've got to scoot in a hurry, I slam through the gears. Some times you need a combination of those types on the fly.
You may need to try DSG and then come back and edit that post! I can't claim firt-hand experience, but the scuttlebutt is "control", and "lightning fast".
Unless you're skip-shifting (something a sequential can't do), nothing will shift faster, and there ain't no TC.
Now daysailer, if he's still around, will rail against the TC as a concept, but I harbor no such ill-will. I readily concede that many in this world would not be driving at all but for this invention. That said, without a shift-kit, I find them all to be far too soft an interface. A lot of that is because of the press and their need to always trumpet the smoothest-shifting auto, I think. The problem, of course isn't when they're locked up at freeway speed, but rather in the slushy feeling getting there and back again. I agree, there's nothing like a clutch to erase the blur.
I stopped wanting to exercize my left leg some years back in traffic, because I realized it was only giving me any measureable pleasurable results about 3% of the time I was in the car. Now that my commute is over hill and dale and curvy, I sometimes miss it, but frankly not that much. Even with their faults, manumatics have come quite a long way with regard to power band control in motion. For the (still) small fraction of drive time that a manual would be really useful and fun, I can live with the faults personally. Or maybe I'm getting soft...;-)
I will probably go DSG next go round. That's the way it's looking today.
fr jimveta
- auto trannys with locking torque converters can be just as efficient as manuals
I s'pose that is theoretically possible but there's little evidence in the real world and the seat of my pants tells me there's some power being lost in the translation thru the TC.
Word is the DSG is more efficient than either a manual or TC Auto. Porsche will be next to adopt this type of gearbox (built by Borg Warner), others will not be far behind.
"Try it you'll like it."
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
;-)
Sure sounds like the future of trannies to me.
That said, the DSG's do intrest me greatly and I'd much rather have one over a slushbox.
I think the DSGs of the world are mostly marketing devices. I'd bet the vast majority of them will be used in full auto mode virtually all the time. The people who buy them really don't want to shift but like being able to tell their buddies that they got the DSG because it shifts faster than any human can work a an MT.
Present company excepted, of course.
I don't doubt that but I'm pretty sure a DSG-type shift would be an advantage for the person active autocrossing or tracking his car.
In the long run I'd rather have that than a TC-based autobox and the time will come soon when those will be the choices for new car buyers.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I agree with that, especially for an occasional track driver. When I was driving the road course at California Speedway in the IS, I was so busy trying to keep the car on the black stuff, the last thing I needed was to be worrying about shifting and heel and toeing. I didn't even use the shift buttons on the steering wheel. The old slush box seemed to be in the exact right gear at all times with no input from me.
So, I guess my opinion is the exact opposite of the race car driver that Shifty usually quotes who said that there was no reason for anything other than an automatic on the street (don't remember which one it was). On a track, it's all I can do to manage the steering, brakes and gas pedal but on the street where I'm not pushing any limits, I'd rather shift myself.
Ain't never been on no track with 'em though.
All y'all can push pedals with your left all you want. I'll see you later at the BBQ...
;-)
The argument that they are more sporty than a automatic only holds true until someone says they don't care if a sequencial is quicker they aren't in it for maximum sport.
I wonder what answer you would get from any driver in F-1 or ALMS or WRC if they wanted to give up their paddle for a third pedal?
As far as trends go? Isn't ABS, Skid control, cornering control and traction control becoming more common? I don't believe my Healey had any of those and I loved that little car. I couldn't get anything like it today no matter how much fun it was to drive. Times change and driver seem to be changing with them.
Most of the time I shifty fairly quick, but of course that is a little "rougher" for passenger comfort. When I have someone else in the car, I tend to shift slower and smoother. When I've got to scoot in a hurry, I slam through the gears. Some times you need a combination of those types on the fly.
Well, while such fine grained abosolute control is not readily available from manufacturers currently, it's not only possible, it's already there in the aftermarket for automatics. Gear selection can be fully manual, doing away with all electronic controls for example, and gear engagement (valve body pressure) can be simply modulated with throttle position or be fully programmable with selectable settings--not quite as dynamic as with a clutch I agree, but still configurable nonetheless.
Word is the DSG is more efficient than either a manual or TC Auto. Porsche will be next to adopt this type of gearbox (built by Borg Warner), others will not be far behind.
If it's locked, there really shouldn't be that much loss. The only extra loss I'd think would come from the friction and inertia (though not really a loss if you measure hp statically) of gears against each other. So perhaps with a large number of gears, the auto can be significantly more lossy. But I've been told by a tuner who has done this himself for example, a built Ford AOD is within a couple percent of a manual in a mustang.
HOWEVER, by seat of the pants experience I assume you mean while accelerating right? If so, then most likely that would be while the converter is unlocked. You can change that yourself though. I wonder why most companies don't lock it up after reaching stall speed--I guess it's for durabilty. Secondly, you also have to keep in mind the difference in gear ratios when you're doing a seat of the pants comparison.
How?
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
My goal is not to be the last stick shift driver on earth, it is however to insure that my kids (and maybe even their kids) have the opportunity to stir their own. ;-)
Having just made that statement, my eight year old daughter had a stroke when she was born that left her "Hemiplegic" (partially paralyzed on her left side). Through lots of therapy she has managed so far to grow up fairly normal and unless you know what to look for, most folks don't even know that she has a problem. Regarding her driving a stick, my guess is that she has about 50-50 odds of being able to do it, assuming that she keeps progressing as she has been. If I do manage to teach her how to drive a manual, and if she decides to stay with it, the amount of therapy for her entire left side that just driving would provide for her will be completely invaluable. Needless to say, I'm obviously preparing myself for a long (and hopefully not too painful) teaching process, which I will probably start in an empty parking lot when she is about 14.
Then again, there is my eleven year old son, who has the attitude of, "You sit me in the left seat, and I'll learn the damn thing in an hour." -Tear!- ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Also, you can "add" TC lockup to trannies that normally didn't have them like GM's 3-speeds, that you can manually engage, again just like you can manually shift gears, or have some electronic unit to control it; see http://www.api-racing.com ("add" is somewhat of a misnomer.. more like "redesigned in").
I remain optimistic about the future of the manual transmission. When boats became powered by engines, this wasn't the demise of the sail. No one needs to be told about the sporting aspect of sailboats and a sailor's connection to the elements. I believe the stick will endure for the same reason.
That said, I admit being concerned about Porsche introducing a sequential gearbox option soon and I can't wait to see how it is received. Something like 8 or 9 out of 10 Porsches sold today are with stick where it is the opposite with Ferrari. Says here that the stick will hold its own among Porsche enthusiasts.
It's early in the sequential gearbox game and it appears many buyers don't like being jerked to death with violent shifts, not being able to modulate power transmission as with clutch.
Kudos to likes of AM and GM. The very popular Vette in Z06 format will be introed in showrooms this fall with one transmission—the stickarooni. Thumbs down on BMW for foisting SMG with their M cars. At least they carry the torch with their other sedans.
Cheers to callmedrfill, stickguy, shipo and all of the other protagonists and manufacturers who recognize the sporting aspect of three pedals and how it makes the driver an actual part of the drive train. Like the sail, manual transmissions cannot be replaced—F1, Cigarettes, and pure speed be damned!
As a sailor, I'd agree with the sentiment. I hate motors at sea. The sooner they're off and the longer they're silent, the happier I am.
I also note, however, that virtually all sailboats now come with motors, and for reasons that seem to (partially) parallel the auto industry. Leads me to believe that a compromise like DSG that still allows for direct connectivity and control is where we'll all go eventually.
I think the shifting part will remain in perpetuity; the advent and persistence of "manumatics" seems evidence that most of us would like the option of that control (even some who have no clue as to how and why). I think the third pedal, though, will slowly retreat into the shadows of time. My, that sounds deep, doesn't it?
;-)
I think you will always be able to get a manual, but it will become more and more of a niche...more and more cars will only be available with an auto or a "manumatic" type setup...the pure stick will probably eventually be basically a niche like a convertible.
I've never driven a "slap-shift" (automated manual) BMW, Ferrari or other high-end example of the genre so I can't say how they compare to a manual. Nor does it matter, since I wouldn't pay that price for a car in any case. But cost aside, why would I WANT the added complexity? A manual works very well for me, thank you very much, and the "shiftable" automatics do not. I have an example of the latter in an Acura TL that my Wife drives. I had hoped that it would make the automatic tolerable but I find that I seldom use the feature due to its limited benefit and response delay. Come to think of it, I seldom choose to drive the car. Perhaps the automatic transmission is the reason.
Strangely enough, one of the best I've driven is Mitsubishi's. I had it on a Chrysler, and by comparison to Acura's or Lexus's, it was aces. Nowhere near as soft, and much quicker per input.
Still not there, though. I don't mind. I'm not 3-pedaling again unless I have to, and I love to drive.
I await my first session with DSG. From all I hear and read, that will be the bees knees...
My commute to work is a canyon road with some enticing curves. Every now and then on the way out, the road is clear and there are a couple of places where I select and hold a lower gear. On the way back in the afternoon, I take a cut-off where gear selection helps. It does work, once you get used to the limitations. It's not as crisp as any manual, but it is a benefit.
All in all, though, I'd say actual shifting for performance takes place maybe 7% of the time. Maybe. The other 93%? I don't need to row. I get no benefit, and very little satisfaction running the H around town and see no reason for it on the freeway. If my "shift for performance" percentage approached 30%, I'd be back in a manual perhaps.
DSG, as I understand it, is not only quicker shifting than a manual, it also has no torque converter, and boasts better acceleration times than a manual in conjunction with equal fuel economy.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=17&article_id=9150
They gave it a really bad review in their 40,000 mile test of a Z4
I read that review a couple weeks back. Kinda scary, ain't it? :-o
Nippon: the answer is no. Any pressure change and the TC is floating. In proximity and under pressure, but floating nonetheless. Any experienced fanny can feel it, however in a car like mine with what I'd call ample torque, it doesn't hamper your enjoyment in the least once you get used to the feel. Where I feel the TC the most is in flat-out straightline acceleration. Since I'm not really given to stoplight skirmishes anyway, and can merge any ramp with firm authority, I don't care at all.
I don't really know how to quantify the difference for you, but we're talking shades of gray for recreational driving, not black and white.
I don't think I'd recommend it for SCCA action, although I know of at least one SportCross driver who does quite well auto-crossing...
Note: The TL's manumode seems like an after thought. I'd not be surprised to find that no TL pilots actually use it.
Again, the best one I've tried so far is Mitsu's Sportronic.
p.s. Yeah, I'm a TL driver, and I'll admit, after the first month or so, the novelty factor of the manual mode pretty much wears off and you end up just leaving it in D and driving it like a "normal" auto.
Some would say this is a perfectly suitable replacement for the traditional manual, because it has no TC losses and no hesitation - in fact in most cases it can change gears faster than a human being. One thing that is ignored, of course, is that you can't change down two gears at once, you have to cycle through the intervening gears even if you don't want to engage them. And of course, if you "surprise" the system by reversing the shift order (your last shift was up to, say, third but now you want to shift back down to second) there is a hesitation while it reverses course. At least that is my understanding from the tech stuff I have read on it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
;-)
Exceptions to Nippon's excellent report that I've read or heard about: gear preselection is controlled electronically and is sequential, but input from a number of sources is processed. So, acceleration and braking input also affects preselection, to anticipate need for one-up or one-down in spirited driving situations.
True, skip-shifting per se can't happen, but the reaction time for a double-tap is supposedly every bit as fast as a well-executed, rev-matched skip. Or so I've heard. Besides, double-tapping doesn't seem to slow any F1 pilots! ]-}
It's not stick and clutch, but it's closer than any other mainstream system has come yet, according to the reports. But of course until I start the test-drive process next year, I won't know for sure!
This is the one that started me looking that way - after andys120 raved about his TT test drive, I believe.
I think this may just be the missing link. The first big step to the future of modern trannies.
I think.
To be smooth, the engine's revs have to fall during an upshift, but SMGs shift so quickly that they can't. Hence the jerk.
Both downshift perfectly well, because rev-matching (in the up-revs direction) is easy.
Maybe not an issue now, but someday these newfangled cars will need work.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
That is also what makes it worse than just having three pedals. I was thinking the other day, another thing automated manuals don't do, I believe, is provide a neutral you can engage while moving. And since they have no clutch, they don't provide for you to engage the gear you want and coast for a few secs while you wait for the appropriate moment to engage it.
Anything without three pedals just sucks, even if it is really good compared to regular auto transmissions...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
[-P
like my iconomation??!!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
:-|)
;--)
;-|)
;-]
:-[]
Okay, let's see if any of those avoid automation...
Best Regards,
Shipo
Nippon: you will be assimilated...
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo