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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The majority of the buying public (owners choosing A/T when there are multiple transmission options) , have obviously voted with their pocket books.

    However from the minority view (6 speed manual owners, who have voted also with their pocketbooks and from by definition a more arcane view) there are and remain HUGE and multiple advantages.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, but if you cut to the chase, it's the fun factor.

    That's the part the manufacturers should be selling.

    Assuming they want to sell cars to people who like driving cars, which is another assumption that's not writ in stone.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I'm just glad more options are becoming available. Though I find myself wondering why DCTs don't seem to be getting the mileage of manuals, when they really should be.

    CVTs are a great concept for both efficiency and power, on the other hand. Someone just needs to figure out how to make one feel sporty.

    With all these alternatives out there, classic manuals are going to have a hard time hanging on. Classic automatics might even have trouble unless they're designed by Mazda apparently.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,138
    For those of us who live in congested areas full of nitwit drivers who wouldn't be allowed behind the wheel if there was any justice, the "fun" is a rarely seen event. Going from negligently timed light to light, never getting above 35mph, stuck in backups, hills, dodging errant idiots, etc...I'll let the car handle things.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Evidently VW,( one of the oems that does its part to keep the M/T alive) is willing to bet it can sell app 10.4% of its current units in inventory, which are M/T.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    dude at work has a Nissan GT-R. Oh my.
    at least i assume a guy owns it...
    and it's got the +/- automatic thing. ew. is GT-R even available with a manual!?

    long live the manual-transmission throwbacks...
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited December 2012
    Not only is the GT-R not available with a manual transmission, the DSG they use is "clunky" (Edmunds review). My experience from a couple of test drives last year was that while the GT-R may be competent on the track at 9/10ths and above, it is a raw and unrefined transmission (and car) for the other 99.5% of the miles most are driven. Compared to the Porsche PDK or even the new BMW M3/M5 DSG's, the Nissan felt like it was engineered by a Neanderthal.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Seems like a lot of DCTs have been relatively disappointing. Ford's was also clunky at low speeds. Dodge's has been characterized as "slow." Hyundai's isn't all that well-liked in the Veloster.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Seems like a lot of DCTs have been relatively disappointing.

    +1. I test drove a VW CC a few months back with the DSG and I really didn't like it at all.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2012
    "+1. I test drove a VW CC a few months back with the DSG and I really didn't like it at all."...

    By the way, that is a very common first impression to the DSG. The shift to a DSG was dictated by the "better mpg" variable. They are by far more efficient that any" slush box" A/T. It was a logical choice for over any slush box A/T VW was willing and/or both able to put into its model line.

    DSG is probably the best of breed "A/T" across DSG, CVT, hybrid CVT, slush box, etc. Indeed the real revolution IS in the tweaking of the A/T across all oems and model lines. By most accounts, the results remain very mixed.

    Even the DSG undergoes "revision". So for example, the latest DSG is a 7 speed and so called dry sump.

    In fact, the recent record set by the Taylor's posting 84+ mpg on a tank full of ULSD (on a 4 door sedan VW Passat TDI, w EPA H rating of 43 mpg) was not even advertising a 6 speed manual transmission was used.

    Yes, (but for the purposes of our discussion) did the availability of the 6 speed transmission "compel" you to buy the VW CC , specifically a VW CC with M/T?
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Yes, (but for the purposes of our discussion did the availability) of the 6 speed transmission "compel" you to buy the VW CC , specifically a VW CC with M/T?

    I did not buy either car ... the test drive was more 'educational' in nature. No plans to buy a car for a couple of years, but I do like seeing what's out there.

    I'm trending towards a manual for my next car - GTI, Focus / Fiesta ST, CPO 1- or 3-series are all on the list.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Edmunds.com lists 218 examples of cars that sport an M/T as an option. Happy hunting and all the best.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    You have to be careful with the "option" part. If thats only a 5%-10% product mix, then realistically it's not available in M/T/
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2012
    I would say yes and no. I have no real way of knowing if it (all 218 product offerings of M/T) is a 5 to 10% product mix and if it is and you know, one would know it or the dealer can "order" for you. Besides the only ones you/I would care about are the ones you would be inclined to drill down seriously on.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Besides the only ones you/I would care about are the ones you would be inclined to drill down seriously on.

    Cars that I've test driven over the past year or so with a manual transmission:

    VW GTI
    Volvo C30
    Ford Mustang GT 5.0
    Chevrolet Camaro SS
    Chevrolet Sonic
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So you are saying you have not owned any of these?
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    So you are saying you have not owned any of these?

    The last car I owned with a manual transmission was a 2003 Ford Focus ZX5.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,511
    I stopped at a local produce store today, the best feature of which is the parking lot abuts a small used car lot. So of course, I have to wander through, just to check on inventory.

    I parked right behind 2 cars that I actually like, and considered buying at 1 time. a 2009 Jetta GLI, and a 2008/9 Mazda 3 hatch.

    notable of course is that they were both stick shifts. Beating the odds there!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I do that sometimes: inventory stick shifts as I'm walking through a parking lot to my car. Given that they supposedly make up such a tiny percentage of new car sales, you would be surprised how many I see.

    And I thought there were years when the Jetta GLI came ONLY with a stick?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2013
    In the days of being able to know if people have firearms, it is almost a state secret (federal in this case) what is the population of registered stick shifts. It is imbedded in the VIN number for talking out loud !?
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Don't know if it's embedded in the VIN number in the form of a single digit or letter, but the complete VIN number will tell you whether its and auto or manual.

    By the way, since I think you use cars.com to try to inventory different vehicles, be aware that this is NOT a good way to try to figure out automatic vs. manual inventories of new vehicles. I stopped sending e-mails at about a dozen, but fully half of the new 2012/2013 Porsche 911's listed in cars.com as "manual" transmissions are, in fact, PDK dual clutch autos. Several dealers e-mailed me back saying that the 7-speed PDK is really a "manual" (compared to the former Tiptronic) and cars.com didn't give them the option of putting in "auto-manual". That's a BS answer in my opinion. It either has a third pedal clutch or its an automatic.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Life isn't simple, and if they're referring to it as a manual, then it's probably because its a manual transmission variant. It's certainly more manual than automatic, despite your tender feelings for your beloved clutch pedal. ;)

    Cars.com really needs to update their selections to include DCTs and CVTs, for clarity's sake. But you'll have to take that up with them.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited January 2013
    Yeah, and softball is more like baseball than football, but it's not real baseball. I play both, so at least I'm not trying to sell one as the other.

    A DCT is not more manual than automatic. It's merely an automatic that replaces an internal torque converter with an internal two clutch system. And you can override the fully automatic gear shifts by switching it to paddle mode. But even the Porsche driving instructors at Summit Point Raceway a few months ago admitted that they do not take Porsche's PDK out of fully automatic mode on the track.

    There is no doubt that Porsches PDK transmission can outshift me in a 0-60 run (roughly 3.6 vs. 3.9 seconds on the new 911S). But only if you don't count the 10 seconds it takes to punch the buttons to activate launch control, rev the engine up to 5,000 rpm with your foot on the brake and then let all hell break loose when you release the brake. In that extra 10 seconds, I'd beat a 911S to 60 with our old 5-speed manual Isuzu Trooper.

    I'm fine with guys that weigh 260 lbs and can hit a slow pitch softball into a different zip code with a triple barrel aluminum, magnesium and titanium alloy bat. They usually don't do so hot against an 80 mph hard breaking slider with a wood bat. And don't look as good trying to steal second on real 90 foot bases as they do lumbering around 65 foot bases while their ball is still in orbit. I may be 55, but I haven't lost all of my speed - or desire to play the real game. Same attitude applies to manual transmission vs. PDK/DSG. If I really, really wanted to win a race, I could just hire a professional to drive me and sit in the back seat. I want to participate in the experience myself, even if I foul out on occasion. And when you get the Porsche instructors away from their corporate bosses, they will likely tell you the same thing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    What he said! :)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    What I said: If you have to choose between calling a softball a "Baseball" or a "Football," you're going to call it a "baseball." If you want to actually call it a "softball" then take it up with Cars.com. Otherwise you have to use the closest choice, which is a MANUAL.

    I know you guys hate it but that's life. A DCT is a direct derivation of a manual transmission, and has as much in common with an automatic as a baseball does with a football.

    Personally I think a DCT should be referred to as a DCT. A CVT should be referred to as a CVT. They're different enough from both manual and automatic that it's right to do so. But I'm not a member of the Holy Order Of All Those Without Clutch Pedals Are Automatics.

    Love to see you guys drive an SMT-equipped Toytoa MR2 Spyder like an automatic. That would be REALLY entertaining. :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    From the Twitter feed of Ed Hellwig þ@edhellwig:

    Quattro GmbH chief: "Manuals will go away because double clutch transmissions are too good."
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good for dealers who sell them, with service needed every 40k miles, and eventual (expensive) replacement.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    In fairness, GmbH looks like something Q-Bert would say. ;) But otherwise, he's right. The manual's advantages of sportiness and efficiency have been overshadowed by the DCT and CVT respectively.

    A CVT is much better at keeping an engine in the sweet spot. Continuously capable one might say. :shades: A DCT is capable of shifting faster than anything with a clutch pedal can ever shift, and those fractions of a second add up when you're racing for 60 MPH. Frankly a CVT would be faster to 60 too, since it's not shifting at all, but most people dragging to 60 would sooner drive a minivan than something with a CVT. :shades:

    Manuals still have a cost advantage, as well as an element of simplicity compared to other choices. That's it though.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Manuals will go away because double clutch transmissions are too good."

    And adult hardball baseball leagues will go away because it's too hard to play 9 innings over three hours and have to run 90 foot bases without drinking beers on the bench.....

    Come on. If you don't want to have real driver engagement in a sports car, just sit at home with your overweight kids and play X-Box.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Define "real driver engagement."
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    My biggest issue is that the manuals that are left are going to six speeds and I really got used to and liked a 5 speed.

    My old '82 Tercel was "peppy" but certainly no sports car. Really enjoyed the MT in that little car.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    One of the MT's problems is the increasing number of speeds. It's rough trying to squeeze them into a shift pattern reasonably, and it becomes a lot easier to miss shifts. People miss shifts with a 6+R, can you imagine an 8+R? 10+R?

    Whereas paddles or a +/- gate don't have that problem. ;)
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited January 2013
    Define "real driver engagement."

    If I have to define it, you probably don't get it. But sucker that I am, I'll try anyway.

    (1) You use your left foot, coordinated with your right hand, instead of your thumbs.

    (2) You get to feather the clutch, or hold it in neutral, blip it more or less than the computer would, or do whatever the heck YOU want. Try that with just your thumbs.

    (3) You get to make mistakes and know that it's YOU that missed the shift. And try to do better the next time. Isn't that why we all golf??

    The manual's advantages of sportiness and efficiency have been overshadowed by the DCT and CVT respectively.

    OK your turn. Please define "sportiness"? Because as best I can tell, you'd rather be watching ESPN in the comfort your living room than lacing up some metal cleats and sliding into second head first yourself. I'm not trying to be sarcastic (OK, maybe a little). But it's just that I keep hearing about how the new technology is "better" because it requires us to do less to et the same - or sometimes better - results. I don't want to do less, when it comes to rowing my own gears.

    BTW, don't take any of this personally. You should see the crap I give my buddies who insist on buying a new $500 titanium driver every year that looks about the size of a VW Beetle, brag about how much better it is than last year's model, and then cry like little babies when I tell them we are playing our match from the 7,200 yard tips. They are willing to pay $400 to play Pinehurst #2 and then complain that they will lose more balls if forced to play the whole course.

    What they really need is more balls in their pants.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    But sucker that I am, I'll try anyway.

    (1) You use your left foot, coordinated with your right hand, instead of your thumbs.

    (2) You get to feather the clutch, or hold it in neutral or do whatever the heck YOU want. Try that with just your thumbs.

    So one must use a clutch pedal to truly feel "driver engagement," which is defined as "having a clutch pedal." Well, you said "sucker," not me. :shades: That's called a "circular argument" and it generally translates to "epic fail."

    "Sportiness" is a combination of power and responsiveness in handling, acceleration, and braking. A clutch pedal has nothing to do with it.

    New technology doesn't "require us to do less." It frees us up to do MORE. I'm not trying to hit a sliver of a shift gate, I'm concentrating on my tail-slide, I'm focusing on my steering, and dodging that jerk in the left lane hypermiling in the Prius by the skin of his bumper because I can concentrate less on SHIFTING and more on DRIVING.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think habitat's point was that the car is doing more things FOR you---and your argument is that yes, that's true, and that allows me to concentrate on other things.

    However, the flaw I see in that rather neat rebuttal is that a clutch pedal doesn't really prevent you from doing the other things, it just requires more effort.

    I don't see "involvement" and "making things easier" as compatible. Some might argue that they are polar opposites.

    ON THE OTHER HAND...ahem....one could argue that driving say a 3-pedal Model T is not more "driver involvement", but rather just a pain in the butt. :P

    Have you ever considered that there is a reason why motorcycles are not all automatics, and the ones that are, are wimpy little thingies?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    edited January 2013
    However, the flaw I see in that rather neat rebuttal is that a clutch pedal doesn't really prevent you from doing the other things, it just requires more effort.

    ON THE OTHER HAND...ahem....one could argue that driving say a 3-pedal Model T is not more "driver involvement", but rather just a pain in the butt.

    Exactly. And can you imagine the "purists" of the time, when the Motel T's successors came out? WHEEL brakes? We never needed those before! It'll decrease driver involvement!

    And then there were padded dashes. And then automatic transmissions. And rack and pinion steering. Disc brakes. Synchromesh! Front wheel drive. Power steering. ABS. All-wheel-drive. Think having manual-locking hubs increased driver involvement?

    Next up is some further transmission advances. Like every advance before it there will be the "purists" that feel they are obligated to preserve the past way of doing things as the only proper way. But eventually most of the market just leaves them behind.

    CVTs may take a shot at replacing slushboxes, but slushboxes are popular in the US, whereas CVTs are popular in Asia, and DCTs are popular in Europe. Eventually DCTs will all but replace manual transmissions in all but a few specialized applications. That's just progress.

    Anyone claiming "driver involvement" can get back to me after they've removed the power steering, power brakes, fuel injectors, headlights, and windshield wiper motors from their car. Oh, and the synchromesh from their manual transmission....can't have any of that advanced technology muddying up the "driver involvement" after all. :shades:
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,760
    Every time I get in a car with paddle shifters, whether it's my wife's auto manual Infiniti or my friend's GT-R with dual-clutch thingy, I find myself letting it shift for itself after about five minutes.. Paddle shifting doesn't keep my attention, and if it will shift on it's own, then it's an automatic in my book..

    I am getting used to six gears, now, but can't imagine going to seven, like the Porsche. (Though, would be willing to try). ;)

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  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    The new Corvette also has a 7-speed manual. I'd choose the automatic, especially with all that torque.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Paddles, how many speeds again?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,760
    Yeah, I drove a Z06 with 6-speed, and figured I could get by with just 2nd and 5th.

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  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Anyone claiming "driver involvement" can get back to me after they've removed the power steering, power brakes, fuel injectors, headlights, and windshield wiper motors from their car. Oh, and the synchromesh from their manual transmission....can't have any of that advanced technology muddying up the "driver involvement" after all.

    Actually, I think there are a few of those purists that wil be showing up at Pebble Beach later this year to have a road rally race with some nice vintage sports cars. Caught something on the History Channel or whatever network airs "Chasing Classic Cars". The idea was that there shouldn't be a garage queen "winner" that can't actually be driven the way it was designed.

    Look, you can go to the extreme of saying that I need to go out and buy a horse and buggy with wooden wheels and a whip in order to make any claim of preferring driver involvement. And I can tell you that you should get a better day job so you can just hire a chauffeur to carry you and your thumbs in the back seat of a limousine. My 28 year old neighbor that has a beautifully restored 1974 911S that doesn't have power anything, but puts 230 hp to the rear wheels of its 1,900 pound curb weight and never came in worse than 1st place in 10 years of vintage racing at Summit Point would call us both spoiled wimps for debating sportiness and engagement. If he wasn't so damn polite, that is.

    The fact is that I have continued to drive a stick because there is an element of involvement and feedback that I enjoy. And yes, I probably am not very polite to those that promulgate the notion pressing buttons or flipping paddles on a PDK steering wheel is just as engaging. It's easier, yes. It can be more fuel efficient, yes. It can produce faster 0-60 times and even Nurburgring laps, yes. But more engaging, no. If you don't agree, then let's agree to disagree.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
    Yeah, I drove a Z06 with 6-speed, and figured I could get by with just 2nd and 5th.

    I could just about get by with 1st and reverse in the newest one. :shades:

    image
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    We're going to have to agree to disagree, because there's no WAY you can tell me that a nice Mazda3 with a Mazda-designed automatic transmission is not an enjoyable and involving drive, whether or not you might find it "more" involving with a stick (I personally would be annoyed with it the first time I got stuck in traffic with it).

    My next purchase is looking like a 2014 Forester XT, which basically translates to a lifted, somewhat heaver WRX (always wanted a WRX but I hoped Subaru would source a DCT). If I want the Forester XT I have to accept that it comes with a CVT, though luckily they programmed in some simulated gears and manual shifting modes, which is an improvement.

    Anything I buy is my single car and is a daily driver on a 55 mile commute on a highway that sometimes gets very VERY clogged. I have to factor that into any car purchase, and a clutch is going to be a ROYAL pain in that traffic.

    Let me know how involving that horse and buggy is. You know, I figure when they introduced steering wheels, someone complained that they reduced driver involvement compared to the tiller. :shades:
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,760
    If I want the Forester XT I have to accept that it comes with a CVT

    That is a travesty..... :(

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  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    If I want the Forester XT I have to accept that it comes with a CVT

    That is a travesty.....

    They should really offer it with a 6-speed manual option, but apparently the take-rate is pretty low. And frankly their standard is a 5-speed manual: the only 6 speed they have is off of the STI, and comes with the driver-controlled differential. Which they probably don't want to put into the Forester. That might be what's taking the next WRX so long too, come to think of it: the CVT might be the only tranny ready for it yet, and a WRX absolutely should not be offered in CVT-only, there should be a manual tranny option.

    And as I mentioned, I'd still buy the CVT. It's got a sport program that simulates a 6 speed automatic (with manual shift capability) and a sport sharp program that simulates an 8 speed automatic (again with manual shift). A CVT frankly can shift even faster than a DCT if programmed right. Big "if" of course, but the Impreza shifts impressively fast with it's CVT in manual mode.

    PS - the 6 speed in the BRX is Lexus/Toyota derived, and not AWD ready.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."be aware that this is NOT a good way to try to figure out automatic vs. manual inventories of new vehicles."....

    I have not used cars .com in ANY references to "try to figure out automatic vs. manual inventories of new vehicles". What made you even think I was unawares? ;) :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2013
    "Anyone claiming "driver involvement" can get back to me after they've removed the power steering, power brakes, fuel injectors, headlights, and windshield wiper motors from their car. Oh, and the synchromesh from their manual transmission....can't have any of that advanced technology muddying up the "driver involvement" after all"

    You have actually just described my 1966 MGB! :P

    I'd be very happy in a car without power anything, but I'd like headlight and wipers please--- I mean, those were around in 1915, so hardly advanced technology.

    If I could somehow remove all those things from my MINI COOPER I'd be very happy. My level of "driver involvement" goes all the way down to SMELL and NOISE.

    But yeah, I need a heater, lights, horn, wipers. In the San Francisco Bay Area, AC isn't necessary either, and with a small light car, drum brakes are just fine.

    But I'm not pooh-poohing hi-tech automatics or manumatics or DSGs or whatever.....they certainly have a place, like for postal delivery trucks for instance. :P
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Oh come on, drum brakes? Real men don't need brakes, they just completely destroy that driver involvement. :shades:

    Heater, lights, an you call yourself a driving enthusiast! Why don't you just tack a US Postal Service sign to your ride too? ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2013
    I have one vehicle with (rear)"drum" brakes. Evidently what you say is true for women also. Three women put the majority of the miles on this. The mechanics laugh when they checked it @ 120,000 miles and told me these will last INXS of (to)275,000 miles. Most new cars with rear DISC brakes have short wear issues. Specifically I read a lot of posts between 15,000 miles to 50,000 miles. This if if they are lucky enough to have front disc brakes last 75,000 to 100,000 miles.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah well I just like a heavy flywheel car---I like that pause between shifts, and I like to short-shift and skip-shift. On one of your fancy pants transmissions, if you try to short shift on the same side of the dual clutches the little darling does slow down.

    In terms of human evolution, my genes will survive while the genes of everyone driving DSGs will eventually perish (this presumes we all reproduce of course) because they won't know when they're doing something incorrectly. ;)
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